Richard:
... know yourself as a writer is super important for me. I always tell people I'm really good with the hooks, and I'm really good at the architecture of the song, like really questioning why things are in certain places. Should we move this verse to a chorus? How do we do this? And I just word vomit a ton of content. So I need someone who's really strong with melody and who could take all my words and put them into something a little bit more beautiful than what I just said, and so I know that that's the type of writer I am. So being right up front with that is super important.

Michael:
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All right, so I'm excited to be here today with Kevin and Richard. They are the creators of the new app called We Should Write Sometime, which is basically like Tinder for songwriters looking to co-write songs, not in the sense that you're looking for dates. You're going to find partners, but in the sense that you're looking for people to co-write songs with. And they've been featured in Billboard and Rolling Stone, and they have a ton of momentum for this new app. And so today, we wanted to kind of dig into what is co-writing, why do you need to be co-writing, how do you do it successfully? Because you're going to learn almost all of the most successful musicians right now are co-writing with other artists, and it's really an art form. And so Richard and Kevin, thanks for taking the time to be here today.

Kevin:
Our pleasure. Yeah, thanks for having us. We're excited. Appreciate it.

Michael:
First question for you guys is, why co-writing in the first place? Why should people get interested in it, and why should they start focusing. on it?

Richard:
There's a ton of reason. I don't know. Kevin, do you want to go to the numbers first, and I can kind of go over the need for when you network and stuff?

Kevin:
Sure. Yeah, I think for Richard and I, a big thing we always like to do is give kind of the quantitative side of why co-writing's important, but then obviously the intrinsic and the reasons you would want to co-write to help make those really great songs. But from a number standpoint, when we look at the last couple of years and the number of songwriters it's taken to write one of the top 100 hits according to Billboard, those numbers are increasing.
In 2016, it was like three and a half songwriters that it took to write one of the top 100 songs. And last year, it was almost five and a half. And so those just show the trends in the number of songwriters it's taking to write those great hits. And so if we look at even just last year, another big number is 80% of the number ones had five or more songwriters on there. And so what we're just seeing on the numbers side is you need to co-write, and you need to find those right co-writers to do that. And now, I'll let Richard kind of talk more on the other side of it with co-writing.

Richard:
Yeah. Those numbers are just crazy, because people never actually look into that. I have a lot of people in Nashville that they'll come here and they'll just say, "Well, I write by myself, and I'm really good writer." And I'm like, "It doesn't matter how good of a writer you are, how good you are at singing and all this stuff. If you don't network and co-write with the right people, your songs will just never be heard, because you're one person coming to Nashville to just play your songs for other people. And yeah, sometimes you'll have another songwriter hear them and want to co-write with you. But if you're not up for co-writes, then that song's going to go nowhere." So the idea here in Nashville especially is most writers who are doing it for a living, and even those who are just trying to make it a living, they write with a different person almost every single day.

So Monday through Friday, they're trying to set up their schedules with different people, because typically those different people have different publishers. And so whether you're a published songwriter or not, when you sit in these rooms with them... Say you write a song on Monday. I'm writing with Kevin. He has a different publisher than me. All of a sudden, he shoots that song to his publisher. The next day I'm writing with you. You have a totally different publisher. All of a sudden, you send that song to your publisher. All of a sudden, two publishers now heard my music, and all I had to do was get in the room with you for that to happen. So networking is one of the most important things that you can do, and I wouldn't worry if it's five people, six people.

Obviously when you get more successful, you want to dwindle it down to your core group of people, but it's so hard to find those right people, so you have to just grind it out. I mean, when I first moved to Nashville, I went out... I'm one of the very few people who don't even drink, but I went out every single night of the week to Writers Rounds. And Writers Rounds, for those who don't know, they're kind of famous here in Nashville. They're spreading around the country, but it's where hit writers, pro writers and up-and-coming writers get up on stage. There's three or four of them, and they take turns playing a song that they wrote, telling the story behind it. And it's pretty much them just putting their resume out to the world, mainly for other songwriters, so they can keep this momentum going. And so I would go out every single night to these Writers Rounds and just try to recruit songwriters, try to meet as many people as I could to network and to get to the next level.

Michael:
Hmm, that's awesome. So it sounds like the two really big reasons that is important is because one, the actual talent behind creating the songs, if you're doing it by yourself, there's one person one mind, as opposed to... How many people watching this right now have you sat down to write a song, and you've had some writer's block? Or you spent three hours trying to tweak the words of one sentence, and it just didn't come out and it was all... And then you get this perspective of one other person who's just like, "Oh no, this is awesome, this right here. Dude, don't even worry about that. That line is awesome," or you have four or five people. So one of the benefits of co-writing is that really the songs just turn out way better.

And it's not even just a subjective thing, it's the success of... If you look at the top 100, if you look at the most successful musicians right now, on average, there's four or five songwriters that made each of those songs. So in terms of writing the best quality songs, you need to be co-writing with other artists. And then it sounds like the other benefit, a huge, huge benefit of it is that it really helps you network. It helps you connect with other publishers and to get to know other musicians who maybe you'll have an opportunity to tour with, or you'll be able to collaborate with. And with the music industry, it's no secret that a lot of your success is going to be about who and the relationships that you've built. And so co-writing is one of the best ways that you can actually build some of those networks.

Kevin:
Oh, yeah.

Richard:
That instant feedback is invaluable too, in the sessions. It just streamlines the song. There's so many more ideas that come from that. Because like you said, you could be sitting on one thing for three hours by yourself, but if you're in a room, and the moment you have writer's block, someone gets you out of it, all of a sudden you've successfully written a song and possibly two songs that day, rather than just hovering onto one song for a whole week.

Kevin:
One of the other things too is the accountability side. It's being accountable to somebody else that you want to write the best song. And I think it's a pretty common in most of our lives. If we're accountable to somebody else, we're going to work a little bit harder to bring our best, and I think that's another piece of that as well. And on the data side too, I get a lot of questions and feedback on that of just saying, "Well, let's look at R&B and hip hop. And what about just country? How much is that?" And we looked at the top 25 country songs of last year, and it was about 3.48, the number of songwriters write those songs too. So we can even look at it from a genre perspective, and still in country, it's three and a half to four. So that is another piece when we break it down from a genre perspective.

Richard:
Yeah. So that shows you that even in those different worlds like LA and New York and Atlanta, it's even more important to network. And so in Nashville, we're super lucky, because we're like the biggest small town in the world, and especially when it comes to the music city. So you could just go to any bar in Midtown, which is the popular place, and everybody in the room, or whoever's serving you drinks, they're all songwriters. Some of them are even published songwriters. When you're in LA, when you're in New York, there's little bitty hotspots, but for the most part, you're driving an hour just to get to that little hotspot or that little Writers Round. And so the need to network in those cities is even higher, and the access to the songwriters is even lower. And so it's so hard, and I always felt bad when I would go out to LA and start writing with some people, and they would just be like, "I'm so jealous of what you have in Nashville." But they want to be in LA, because that's where the scene's at.

Michael:
Gotcha. Yeah, so I think it's abundantly clear that that co-writing is really valuable, and it's something that if you want to be successful as a musician, you should get comfortable with and start learning how to network in that way. As experts when it comes to co-writing, what have you noticed have been some of the biggest challenges or mistakes that musicians make when they kind of get started within this world of co-writing?

Richard:
Well, there's some crazy stories I've heard about. You have to leave all ego at the door, especially when you're able to write up a little bit. And so there's a term while writing here in Nashville at least, is writing up, where say me and Kevin are on the same level. We're both intro, we're coming into town, we're writing songs with each other, and we have a standing date on Monday that we write every single day. But then I get a call from a published writer who's like, "Hey, let's write." I'll be like, "Kevin, I'm writing up today." And so there's kind of a code where he's all for me. So he's like, "Yes, you go. I don't care if I'm not writing today, because I want you to go and write up." So if you come to town and you instantly get butthurt that someone has to cancel on you because they're writing up for the right reasons...
There's a lot of little intricacies when it comes to in Nashville, which is going to be opposite of the up-and-coming songwriter who's just trying to write. But just really, know yourself as a writer is super important for me. I always tell people I'm really good with the hooks, and I'm really good at the architecture of the song, like really questioning why things are in certain places. Should we move this verse to a chorus? How do we do this? And I just word vomit a ton of content. So I need someone who's really strong with melody and who could take all my words and put them into something a little bit more beautiful than what I just said, and so I know that that's the type of writer I am. So being right up front with that is super important, because when you have two people who...

Say here in Nashville, we both go out, me and Kevin both go out. We don't know each other. We're at Whiskey jam on a Monday night trying to meet other songwriters. And I'm like, "Oh, you're a songwriter? Let's write some time. Let's put some on the books." He's like, "Sweet," and that's our whole interaction. And then we get into a room, and we both don't play guitar. And so all of a sudden we're like, "Oh, wait, are we both lyricists? How did this happen?" All of a sudden, he's wasted a day. We wasted a connection when we could've just been like, "Hey, I'm a lyricist. What do you do?" "Hey, I'm a lyricist." Like, "Oh, we need to bring in a third. We need to bring in a melody person."

And so it's super important to just be upfront. Own it. If you're not good at something, that doesn't mean someone's not going to want to write with you. I'm horrible with melody, but I still get a lot of writes. It doesn't even matter. I think when you're more upfront, it carries along a heavier weight, because now that person's going to be like, "Hey, Richard's really good at this. You should put him in your room too," rather than, "Hey, he lied to me about his skills. He's not that good."

Michael:
Gotcha. So it sounds like a couple of the biggest mistakes are one, like with any sort of relationships that you're building, you really need to learn how to let your ego drop or leave your ego at the door. Because especially probably with songwriting too, when you're writing, if you're writing up, you want to make sure that you're giving the other person space to be able to express their ideas. But also specifically when it comes to co-writing, if someone has to cancel on you because they're writing up, then not taking it personally, but just being happy for them and wanting them to be successful.

Richard:
I'll just say, if you do get that writing up chance, I know a lot of people... There's two scenarios. There's one where I knew a guy who went into a room with a guy who had multiple number ones for the first time. And he ended up cussing him out, because he didn't get the right lyric in the song. And I'm like, "At that point, you just back off. You let them... Even if you think it's crap, let them take it away." On the other end, I know friends who finally got that big chance, and they prepped an entire two songs before they even went into the write. So they went in there ready with the idea.
Because if you're going to be writing up and it's a really good writer, that writer's not expected to be like, "Hey, I have this idea for a song." Sometimes they do, but for the most part, you as the up-and-comer should present the ideas. You should be like, "I've already got some stuff." You don't have to tell them you got stuff. "Hey, what about this," and start jamming a little bit. Even if you're making up that you didn't just build that song yesterday, be prepared when you're going into these writes.

Kevin:
Yeah. Another piece of that is the other side on the business front, in terms of understanding the PROs. Are you a member of one of the PRS? Because you want to make sure when you start creating songs, you want to get paid for those. And when we see on our app specifically there's a lot of new songwriters coming in that aren't familiar with those organizations, which we're trying to help educate of the importance of them and what they do and why you need to be a member of one...

But then the split sheet as well, it's knowing the business side of co-writing and creating that music so that you're protected and know that when you're writing these songs, you're not going to have to go into these battles that you see sometimes along in the headlines when it comes to copyright and who owns some of the song. And I was a part of that, and I know Richard's been a lot more in those songwriting rooms when those conversations are happening, but just making sure on the business and that you're aware of what needs to get taken care of, so you're protected.

Richard:
Yeah, because if you're a new writer and you're on our app and you're from Iowa, and you geolocate to Nashville because you want to write with a Nashville songwriter, so you connect with me and we write a song, I'm going to expect that we register that song. And if you don't know what ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC are, you don't know what splits are, it's going to be a little bit harder for when we actually... So I say, "Hey, I pitched this to a publisher. They want it. What is your ASCAP IPI number? What is your BMI number?," and they're like, "Well, what's that," it's going to take so much longer. And sometimes with sync, it's a quick turnaround. They want to know instantly if you have all the rights to your song, and if you don't, they're going to pass on you.

So it's super important to know all that information. And [crosstalk 00:14:31] splits too, just how splits operate. And that's what we're trying to do, is also be an education tool, because LA is so much different Nashville. In Nashville, if it's us three in a room, doesn't matter if I slept for 80% of the write, got up and said, "Hey, what about this?" I'm a writer on that song, and we split it 33%. If we're in LA, it's a lot different. They kind of count lines, and they say, "Hey, I did this much. I did this much." And they're more upfront about the split sheets right away, because they want to make sure that they're getting their percentages. But again, with any kind of arts who knows that the hook that I brought... Say it's two words, but it's what makes the whole song. Who knows how much of that is actually worth when it comes to our conversation? You could write 90% of the song, but the hook could be what sells it. So I think that's why in Nashville, it's a lot of just shared equity.

Michael:
That's really interesting to hear how it's different with the splits in different places. But just for anyone who maybe is a little bit unclear or doesn't understand how that process works, could you give us a really brief overview of what a PRO is and what you mean by splits?

Richard:
Yeah. I mean, mostly just performing rights organizations are the ones who are going to... If you finally get a song on the radio, they're the ones that collect your royalties and give it back to you. So for the most part, there's three major ones, and there's a few other ones that are in... I think there's five total PROs in the United States, but ASCAP, BMI are the two biggest, and then SESAC is invite only. So you would know about SESAC, because they may invite you to become a writer. And that's how it's kind of divvied up, is when we write a song, if I was ASCAP, Kevin's BMI, you're SESAC, when we register that song, it needs to know where we're at because those different PROs are what are going to be sending us that what we call mailbox money. And so it's super important, but it's super easy, too. I mean, for ASCAP, it's a $50 fee, one-time fee forever. You just go in there, put in your name, put all the information. It's super simple application. You push it in, and now you're an ASCAP PRO affiliate.

Michael:
Cool. And so it is interesting. So in Nashville, it sounds like it's usually split evenly, no matter how much or how little you contributed at the session, just because it can be kind of subjective and hard to really know how much... If a couple of words really made it pop, then how do you determine that? So in Nashville, it sounds like it's something that you generally kind of just split it evenly, whereas in LA and maybe in some other places, you might determine something more upfront or you might kind of change it around. How do you recommend... If someone's just kind of getting started with co-writing, should they go into it and ask about it right away? Or, is that something that is kind of a cultural thing?

Richard:
I would only if it's your first time writing, and especially if you're going out to LA, or geolocating to LA, or writing with someone like that. Just be like, "Hey, upfront, I just want to know how you do split." So you can still act like you're knowledgeable, but just say, "How do you do this splits? Because I want to make sure that we're going in here and we understand." Because there's ultimately pros and cons to both, but I think that the more cons are in where we all decide who gets what, because if you have one person in the room that is very demanding, they may demand for a weaker line just because it's theirs, rather than a collective, artistic, all three of us are really trying to be like, "I don't know, we could do better."

And if Kevin has that line, I want to be like, "Yes, that's the line." I don't want to be like, "How can I tweak this so I get a higher percent on this song," because you have those people. And so I honestly think the more people that start doing the, "Hey, we're splitting what's in the room. We all made educated decisions to get in the room with each other, so we got to trust that each individual is going to bring as much to the table... And if you don't, we just don't write with you next time." So that's how I would typically approach it.

Michael:
I like that. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense, so that it helps to alleviate any egos or any sort of sense of wanting to, like you said, make sure that it's your line as opposed to someone else's. It makes the focus more about just writing the best song possible. Another thing you mentioned a little bit ago was how one of the biggest keys to being successful with co-writing is really understanding your strengths and your weaknesses as a writer, so knowing if you're really good at lyrics, or if you're good at melody, or you're good at a different component of songwriting.
How do you recommend people determine that? Is that something that they just kind of know naturally, or something they learned through co-writing? And you mentioned it's a good thing to have a conversation kind of upfront, but can you dive a little bit deeper into strengths as a writer, and maybe even what are some of the different things that you look at? I know melody, lyrics are a couple of them, but if you're writing up and you're going to work with a really awesome songwriter, then how would you want to position your own skills when you're communicating with them?

Richard:
I mean, it's hard to... Most listeners here who have been songwriting for a while probably just, when I said that, thought to themselves, "Wait, what type of writer am I?" I think people just don't think about it enough, because if you're good, you're just good. Some people are kind of baseline decent enough at melody, lyric, and stuff to where they don't have to really worry about it, because they're just baseline really good. But when you know you're bad at something, you have to be upfront about that. So even on my profile on We Should Write Sometime, I have about 45 different placements, and I put the nine songs that I've had placed in my profile. When you click on them, you'll hear a rap song, you'll hear a pop song, you'll hear a country song.

I'm not good with melody, so I don't want you swiping on me and being like, "Hey, I love your beats," or, "I love your melody." And so to be direct upfront, be like, "Hey, I know you listen to my music, but here's the deal. I'm not the melody person. That was someone totally different. I'm more the lyric person and the hook person." And sometimes it's hard to do, because you're thinking... Especially if you're writing up, you're just like, "Okay, what if they only wanted me because my melody was really good in this? And even though it wasn't mine, should I get in the room with him?" I honestly think that it would do more damage than it did good, because if that's what they wanted and you don't present it to them, you're never writing with them again anyways. When if you already have it on the books and you're more humble about it, being like, "Honestly, I'm not as good with melody, but I really had this great idea I want to come in with," they're not going to cancel just because of that.

But if you come in the room and you just suck, they're going to not write with you again. So I think it's super important to be upfront and to identify that, but you still... And I'm more forward-thinking than most, because you still don't really get that. Most of the writers I've written with in Nashville, nobody's ever told me what their skillset was. And I think a lot of them [inaudible 00:21:02] because since they moved here... Again, they're baseline just pretty good at a little bit of everything. Until we get in the room, sometimes they're like, "Hey, I'm not really good at melody," and then you have to call up someone else to come in. We had to do that on one write, where we're just like... We just could not get a melody locked in, even though we're decent enough to get a baseline. But when the song started making a turn and we wanted to hear a sound but we couldn't make, we actually ended up calling someone else to come over and kind of be the melody person. And so, just being okay with that.

Michael:
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And so if that's something you're interested in, in the description, there should be a little link that you can click on to go get that. And the other thing I wanted to mention is if you want to do us a huge favor, one thing that really makes a big difference early on when you're creating a podcast is if people click subscribe, then it basically lets the algorithm know that this is something that's new and noteworthy, and that people actually want to hear. And so that'll help us reach a lot more people. So if you're getting value from this and you get value from the free trainings, then if you want to do us a favor, I'd really appreciate you clicking the subscribe button. All right, let's get back to the podcast.

Yeah, I think you're totally right. Just being able to identify and being able to communicate transparently about where you're at is... 99.9% of the time, people are going to appreciate you for it, and it's better to be up front than to hide it and then [crosstalk 00:23:05].

Richard:
Because sometimes, I would love if someone just said, "I suck at hooks, but I'm so strong with melody." Then I'm like, "You're my perfect match." Because a lot of times, you might have conflicting... If I'm really good at hook and architect and just blurting out words, and you're the same exact way, I don't really want to get in a room with you just because you're not really highlighting or you're not strengthening my weaknesses. And so that's what I need. I need kind of that perfect fit so that we can just write. And so I think that's super important, especially when you're filling out the profiles on the We Should Write Sometime app.

Excuse me. And what we talk about on there is if you're a topliner, if you do lyric, if you do melody, what instruments you play... Because honestly, a lot of times when I'm starting to write a song, I'm like, this would be so cool on piano. So I would get on there and I would be looking strictly for someone who plays piano, because I think it'd be really cool to have this idea on piano. And you don't have that access now. You can't just go out into a bar and be like, "Piano? Do you write and play piano?" And so this makes it so much easier to kind of find that perfect match.

Michael:
Cool. Yeah, I'd love to hear more about your app now in terms of... I know that the whole benefit of the app is that it makes it really simple and easy to find other songwriters like what you're talking about, and be able to find people with strengths that match your gaps. So how exactly does the app work, and how much does it cost, and how do people use it?

Kevin:
Yeah. And you pretty much hit it on the head when everybody asks... They hear We Should Write Sometime they kind of chuckle, just because I think they've said it a lot as a songwriter. But you described it as Tinder for songwriters, and that's exactly how we describe it, and a lot of it has to do with just the functionality of it. It's a user builds a profile. We have an open-form text field so you can put in just kind of what we're talking about. Here's my style, genres, a little bit about me, what I'm looking for, kind of where I'm located. And then it has links to your SoundCloud, Spotify, YouTube, socials.

That way, you can kind of get the sense of, "Hey, I can look at them on Instagram, but also here are some of the songs they're posting there. I can listen to them on SoundCloud and Spotify. Then I can see what their skills are, if they do lyrics, melody, or topline, and then what instruments they play." And then it uses geolocation. So here in Nashville, I open it up, I'm going to see everybody here in Nashville. And then if it's somebody that I want to write with, it's a swipe right, and so we joke on that. Swipe right, get it? And then if they swipe right back on you, then in the app, you're connected to then message and be like, "Hey, we obviously have a mutual agreement that we want to write with each other." And this way, you're not sharing personal contact information. And so obviously, a lot of big-time writers, a ton of people go up and be like, "Hey, would you want to write with me?"

And they don't want to have to give out their number, and they don't know who this person is. So that helps with that privacy, but also filtering through and being like, "Hey, I can make this a lot easier." Even if I don't want to write with that person, it's a quick swipe left, just like those dating apps. The other component is the geolocation feature. So if you are in, say, Nebraska and say, "Look, I've got a lot of lyrics and I need some melody. I need to get in front of other songwriters in Nashville or LA or New York or wherever," I can simply in the app just geolocate, put my profile there. And especially during these times, we're seeing all virtual writes. I think that's maybe going to change here coming up, but everybody's doing it virtual.

So it is awesome to see from our perspective these writers that said, "Hey, one, I have a little bit more time to write, but two, man, now I'm really getting into co-writing because I feel since everybody's got to do it virtually, it doesn't matter where I am. I can kind of connect with anybody that I need to in any city. And the beauty is it's free to download. It's free to download. The geolocation feature is free to use now. We are very clear in saying, "Look, we want to help songwriters as much as possible." And so for us, it's how do we make it very simple for other songwriters to find and connect with each other, save time and money? I think here in Nashville, we see and have a lot of friends that fly in from Canada, from Australia, for the sole purpose of meeting other songwriters for a later date.

So they're spending flight, hotel, nights out, all that money and saying, "Look, I'm just trying to network. And then I'm going to be back, say, in August." We can simply just go look... Just in your profile, just say, "I'm going to be in Nashville in August setting up co-writes in advance." So that's going to save a ton of time and money. So yeah, it's a pretty simple concept. I mean, we're still young. We launched in November of 2018, so we're still fairly young. So there's a lot of things that we know that we need to update and kind of fix on the design part of it, so patience with that as we're still a young startup, but we're excited.

And I think as we are available in Canada, Australia, and the US, and we'll be expanding to Israel and the UK here soon... So we're going to start seeing a lot of cool collaborations and co-writes with new music, new sound, new people from all across the world. And that's what we're trying to do, is just help songwriters do what they love. So yeah, that's kind of the quick pitch overview or long pitch, however you want to look at it.

Michael:
Awesome. Dude, that's so cool. You know what would be funny is if people ended up finding more dating success on We Should Write Sometime than on Tinder.

Kevin:
Yeah. There is a commonality from the very get-go.

Richard:
Well, it's like the show on ABC, the new bachelor show, whatever that is, where it's [crosstalk 00:28:42].

Kevin:
Oh, yeah.

Richard:
Whatever it is. It's musicians finding love through their music.

Kevin:
Listen to Your Heart.

Richard:
We'd be a good partner with them.

Michael:
There you go. Listen to Your Heart. Cool. So it sounds like this is just a cool tool, an opportunity for songwriters who are looking for other songwriters to write with, and with the benefit of that rather than having to go out to all these Writing Rounds or all these bars and meet people and kind of awkwardly introduce yourself and do stuff, it really kind of consolidates or it streamlines the relationship-building.

Kevin:
And the next piece of that is giving that not only access to people that may not be in Nashville, but we know a lot of songwriters that are introverts. And their idea of a good night out to network isn't exactly going to bars all night, and so this kind of gives that peace of mind to them like, "Wow, I can still find some really good co-writes, and not need network and go handshake all the time and try to be in the scene." But two, now we're at that stage of we want to help those writers that are writing good songs within the app. And so now, it's starting to collect songs from two writers that met on the app, and with our connections here in Nashville, it's...

How do we help promote them and get them in front of the right people and kind of show if you are the best lyricists from El Paso, Texas, or wherever, you don't have to be in Nashville, but we can still show a path of success and give you that hope of, "If I write really good songs and I work really, really hard, I don't have to be there necessarily. There is a pathway to advancing my career in songwriting." And again, we're just getting into that phase, but we're excited about hearing these songs that people are sending to us so that we can then go, "Great. Is this a place where then we can get them in front of publishers potentially?" And they're like, "Wow, I never would've thought a publisher would've heard my song, let alone maybe would get signed or cut, or whatever." But that's kind of our mission, is to help not just write, but then how do you progress if you do write those good songs and work hard enough.

Michael:
Dude, that's awesome. Yeah, I can definitely see how... Because in a lot of ways, this co-writing relationship network already exists offline. There's already these relationships that are built, and there's already this community. And so it sounds like really what the app is doing and kind of a long-term vision of it is to create this platform that just streamlines the process and allows you to connect with the right people who are most likely to fill your gaps as a songwriter, and to be able to actually showcase... People who write songs together, they can showcase the songs that they wrote. And you can actually have a database where you look and you see... You could have maybe a leaderboard with... Hey, these are the songs, and these are the people that are writing the songs, and you can reach out to them more directly. It sounds like a really, really cool vision.

Kevin:
Yeah. And I mean, it's one of those for us. Everyone's looking for the next great songwriter, and I don't think anybody now cares where they come from. And if we can help facilitate that in some way, that's exciting. We've had some publishers just say, "Look, I want to know who the most swiped-right on profiles are." And that to us is important, because then we got to to relay that message to the users and say, "Make sure your profile is great. Make sure you have as much info, as many links as possible so they can really vet you," because at some point, we'll get to that phase of being able to look at some data and leaderboard as you say, and really help. But again, you've got to put in the work. You can't just be like, "Hey, I wrote a song. Get it in front of Luke Combs." That's just not going to happen. We got some work to do.

Michael:
So, is this an app? Is it for iPhone, Android? Is there a web app version of it? Or, where can people find it?

Kevin:
It's on both app stores, so Google Play and iOS for Apple. We really don't have that much of a website, if you will. And we kind of joke sometimes, and when I say Tinder for songwriters, I always go to, "Have you been to Tinder or Bumble's website?" People are like, "No." I'm like, "Kind of like that." But again, you can absolutely go to weshouldwritesometime.com, and it takes you to the app stores. And we will eventually build that out, but I think right now, it's how do we do the one thing we need to do, which is connect songwriters so that they can co-write. And that's where we started. And we've seen a lot of success lately a lot, just because everybody kind of being indoors and needing to do virtual writing. But the organic growth part of it is exciting, because we just go, "Look, how do we help not only connect, but then further those careers like I was saying?" But yeah, it's free to download. We're going to be building a lot of cool premium features coming out, but we're really excited for what we're seeing so far.

Michael:
Beautiful. And so to make it really simple, we'll put a link to We Should Write Sometime app the app below for both the iOS store and the Android store. I'm excited. So we just met about a week ago, and as soon as I heard about this app, I'm like, "This is a really cool idea. This is awesome, and I'm really looking forward to downloading it, trying it out." And I know you guys just got featured on Billboard, on Rolling Stone, so I really... This is something that is starting to build a lot of momentum. So I definitely recommend that for the reasons we already talked about, co-writing and getting yourself out there, networking, connecting with people, writing better songs. The foundation of your music career really comes from your songs and how well those connect with people, and so I highly recommend following the advice that Kevin and Richard are sharing with us, and using their app as a tool, and ultimately just getting really, really good at co-writing, because that is a big lever in your music career.

Kevin:
We can't thank you enough, and we really appreciate it. And I always say, especially at this stage, I try to manage expectations as much as possible. And we know there's some little design things that we're working on fixing to make it a smoother, more frictionless thing. And so we're always working to make it a lot easier to use at this stage, but as of now, I am always responding and wanting to make sure I'm giving the best experience and customer service. So I always kind of put, when you guys sign up, links directly to me for some one-on-one time, if you want. Always down for that, but then I just answer any questions and get feedback, because I think the feedback at this stage is super important. So we are building it the way that's going to help you guys, and that's what we want. So can't thank you enough, Michael, for having us on.

Michael:
Yeah, absolutely. And one additional thing to add on to that too is I think this is kind of in the earlier stage of the startup, and they're building some major momentum. But right now, you're probably going to get access to a lot of features that are going to be premium down the line. So there's going to be these different things that you can pay for, but because you're some of the first people to hear about it, you're going to have the benefit of getting access to these features for free. So I appreciate you sharing that opportunity with us.

Kevin:
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. This is great.

Michael:
Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about the guests today, and if you want to support the podcast, Then there's a few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe, then that'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends or on your social media, tag us. That really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take their music careers to the next level. The time to be a modern musician is now, and I'll look forward to seeing you on our next episode.