Johnny Chase:
Those are the same people that referred me to other places that I got calls from. So every relationship turns into something else, and then you don't know what it's going to be, or when it's going to happen. But it's just important to build them and keep track of them. And don't treat them like a business interaction. Like you're really building a relationship and see what happens.

Michael Walker:
It's easy to get lost in today's music industry, with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician, and slowly getting better. If you have high quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month, without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry. And this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

All right, so I'm here today with Johnny Chase. Johnny is a member of our Gold Arts Academy program. And he's just like a truck horse of an artist who played over 300 shows a year [crosstalk 00:01:04]. When there's not like a Coronavirus pandemic going on, he is earning more than six figures with his music. And a huge part of it comes from the live shows that he's doing. And so I think that today we're really going to kind of dig into some tips for anyone who's watching this right now, who's starting out, and you know that live performance is something that you really are passionate about, and you enjoy, and kind of using that to create a career as a live show artist.
So a couple of... I got to brag on you a little bit. I got to brag on you a little bit. So Johnny has been featured on HBO, MTV, CNN and shows like Entourage, Tyra Banks on the Generous. Like I said, often they'll play over 300 shows in a single year, and he's got more than a six figure income from his music. And so, I feel that this is going to be really valuable to hear him share his story and dig in there. So John, thanks for taking the time to be here today. 

Johnny Chase:
Thanks for having me. 

Michael Walker:
Oh, yeah. So yeah, man, I'd love to dive in and just hear a little bit more about your story starting out, like how you've kind of built this career. 

Johnny Chase:
Where to begin? Yeah. Well, I think things kind of backwards I guess with my Johnny Chase career, I guess if you want to call it that. I wrote a CD first. And before then, I'd gigged but not as a singer or a front man or anything like that. So I had the songs I wanted to write, and I wanted to get them out of me kind of thing. And I did the CD. And then I like, okay, now I got to figure out how to promote this thing. So I started doing shows, obviously. And all I did at first was originals. It was good, but I wasn't making any money doing that at first. And I had, this is barely being at Myspace. I guess you remember those days-

Michael Walker:
Oh, yeah. 

Johnny Chase:
Which I'm [inaudible 00:02:55] myself now. But at the same time, Myspace actually was a huge tool. I mean, it got me the HBO placements before the CD was even released. I had a couple tracks that had a rough cut, and I put it on there. And just by chance, I guess, somebody that worked at MTV saw it or heard it, and started putting me on shows. And that gave me kind of a lot of momentum for getting gigs. 

I'm like, hey, my song has been on this and this, and I'm great, come hear me. And that opened a few doors right off the bat. So yeah, just kind of started building relationships. I really approached, I guess, as far as gigging when you're starting off, I approached every gig like a partnership, not like a, "Hey, pay me to play this night." I was like, "Hey, let's see what we can build with me and your establishment, or your venue," whatever that meant. Because I was very adaptable. I can't remember who said it, but I was at a music conference. This guy is just like, "Learn to say yes, and figure it out later." So every time they asked me to do something, I was like, "Yeah, I could do that." [inaudible 00:03:54].
And that was kind of my approach at the beginning. Was like, okay, if they wanted me to do a cover show, I'm like, okay... I didn't know a whole lot of covers, maybe 30 minutes worth, because I didn't ever focus on playing covers, I focused on writing. And I still do, but I found out that paid. So I'm like, okay, I need to work on that a little bit. And one of the things that... [inaudible 00:04:15] just a little party where someone at the party happened to work at an advertisement studio. And I got an opportunity to write an ad for a local company called Shoe Advantage Fitness, which ended up paying about two months of what my current salary was at my day job. And so I'm like, I quit my day job. 
So I quit my day job in 2006. And I'm like, if I put 60 hours a week into this, which is what I was working already, I can make it work. So I just kind of started building. Any place I could get a weekly gig on an off night was kind of my goal beginning because I wasn't completely confident about my performance abilities yet either. I was still learning how to sing and play guitar because I was a drummer. But I wanted to write, I wanted to sing. I just knew that's what I wanted to do. 

So I say, "Hey, I see you don't have anything on Wednesday night[inaudible 00:05:00] work out" I never undercut anybody as far as salary goes, but I'd still offer them a discount if they booked me an X amount of gigs. And then I built up my show that way, and just word kind of spread. So people started to recommend me to other places. And before I knew what I had 250 or so a year. So then I started to up my price and see what happens. Every time I get to that point, I'd keep upping my price until it didn't seem to matter, I guess. 

Then I started doing over 300 shows a year. And I've been doing that for at least the last five years consistently. And all of them are pretty much ones that I've... I mean, I haven't seeked out a gig in a long time. It's all people kind of come to me because they heard me somewhere else, which is a great problem to have. Yeah, I try to, like I said, build relationships, and I try to be fair. I hold myself to a certain standard where I show up an hour early, I do my homework on the place, I advertise it right. I was always ready, I mean, for whatever. I try to make sure I'm prepared for whatever I'm getting into. And try to deliver more than expected consistently is the goal. And it pays off. 

Michael Walker:
Dude, I love that advice early on, just say yes, say yes to everything and then learn how to... It's like jumping off a cliff and then building the hang glider as you go off. It's a good way to get yourself to learn how to build a hang glider.

Johnny Chase:
[inaudible 00:06:27] told me that, it was pretty good advice in the way he did it. He actually does interviews for a living, like famous people and stuff. And I think he was a writer for newspapers or something. Somebody say like, "Hey, can you do interviews?" And he's like, "Sure." So he looked up all the things you should be asking him to do. Now he's one of the main guys that people seek out interviews with. 

Michael Walker:
Wow, it must have been a really cool moment when you... Two months of salary, and you're like, "All right, well, that's the time. I'm quitting my job now. I can do this." I know a lot of people watching this right now, that's probably one of their dreams, like reaching that moment where it's like, okay, they can transition. And it sounds like what you're saying too is that early on, you realize that sometimes some of these cover shows that you play live is a great way to earn income, it's a great way to support yourself. You got a family.

Johnny Chase:
You definitely still use that to promote your original music. Because you get them bought in on you as a person and build it, pay attention to your personality and your presence, and then you're kind of style of singing. And then you kind of throw in, "Hey, Let me show you this song." And [inaudible 00:07:36] let me hear more of that. And then all of a sudden, you're building fans off of your original music, not just some guy that writes in a bar, which is definitely something I tried to differentiate myself with. There is nothing wrong with playing covers in bar, but in my approach to covers, I kind of put my own artistic spin on it. And most people will kind of appreciate that. 

Michael Walker:
Yeah, for sure. I mean, what is it... Like this little tiny band called The Beatles started out playing some [crosstalk 00:08:04]. I don't know if you ever heard of them. 

Johnny Chase:
Rolling Stones [crosstalk 00:08:08].

Michael Walker:
Oh, wow. It really does seem like just a great opportunity for you developing your craft as a performing artist and learning. In your case, you're a drummer, so you learn how to play guitar and you learn how to sing better by playing the shows [crosstalk 00:08:25]. It was a great way to be able to focus on your music full time and be able to quit your job to focus on the music, which was awesome. 
And I definitely remember... I mean, just one of my favorite screenshots ever, I think was when we started working together. And you sent me a message from one of the fans of your original music that had responded to one of your songs. It was just like, gosh, how she said, "Like, you gave me goosebumps on places on my body that I didn't realize existed. Your voice is turning me into a puddle, like I'm melted on the floor." I was like, yeah, that's what it's all about. I mean, you certainly... You've honed your craft as an artist and with the original music. 

Johnny Chase:
That reaction caught me off guard too. And I was like, wow, what do you say to that?

Michael Walker:
There's something about that like... It made it into my morning formula because I take a lot of screenshots of the clients we're working with when they're happier, when they're getting results. And that was something that I put in there because as I'm scrolling through and I see your message that you sent to me sharing that off, it kind of cracks me up. Just like the terminologies, she's like, "I'm melting into a puddle." That's awesome. 
I know it's going to be kind of difficult because you're at this point where you've built this really established career and it's always hard. They call this the curse of knowledge because it's... Human tendency, we don't appreciate what we've got until it's gone, or there's always kind of the next frontier. We lose touch with what it was like at the beginning. Now it just seems like secondhand knowledge. Where about someone who's just starting out, they might be running into certain challenges. 

I want to ask you, if you can remember kind of early on, when you were just getting started. I talk with a lot of musicians kind of at this point, so I can kind of ask some questions on their behalf, too. But do you remember kind of early on, when you're just getting started what were some of the biggest challenges that you're running into when it came to booking the shows?

Johnny Chase:
When booking them, for me, it was just experience. I didn't feel like I had experience that the people I was seeing in these places had. I didn't have experience controlling an audience yet, at that point. I was just like, I can play this song, if no one bothers me and no one interrupts me. It was just getting over being in front of people, in which... I had confidence in the songs I was playing. Confidence that I had, the passion to do it. And I was hoping that would outdo the fact that I didn't really know what I was doing.

So I'm like, I'm just going to put it all out there. And if people hate it, then they hate it. And they'll just accept that, and do it again, work on it. And there definitely were nights where I was like, okay, I should not be doing this. These people were requesting songs I'd never heard of, and they're like, "What kind of musician are you?" So I told then, "Hey, I'm a drummer. I'm just trying to play guitar." Then I'd just kind of laugh it off. And I'm like okay, I can't use that forever, that's kind of a cop out. And that was kind of like my defense mechanisms, throw a little humor at them. And they're like, "Oh, if you're a drummer, you're not too bad to guitar, but if you're a guitar player, you suck." Always kind of that vibe. 
And going back to that commercial thing I said I got, that gave me the confidence to quit my job. But two months later, when that money was kind of gone, I'm like, okay, I really need to... I had a moment where I'm like, I really need to figure this out and make this work or I'm going to have to go back to my day job. And it was a rough [inaudible 00:12:04], getting six months where I was just grinding and hitting up places, just getting in whenever I could get in. And then I would sit in a lot of open mics, trying to network with other musicians. 

That's always a good tool starting off because there's always people of every level at those places. So that gave me places, conversations. Just networking with people is huge, especially in your local community, local bands, people that are out there will tell you what to expect and where they played. And you just kind of go from there and just check them all out. A lot of dive bars and stuff at first, and then...

But like I said, I always approached it from a point of I don't want to display [inaudible 00:12:44] I don't want to be... I want to get to know your clients, when I build it up. And I'd always own up to that. And I'd be up there and handing out flyers back then. Now, it's all media. But I'd be putting up posters hanging up there, like two weeks in advance, and I'd go up there as a customer and talk to people and say, "Hey, I [inaudible 00:13:01]." I really was in everything when I was doing that. 

So it was definitely a lot of time just that wasn't playing music, just talking to people, and saying, "Hey, this is what I do. And I had the CDs that people that could listen to it. And it was on Myspace at the time, so I could give them that link, and they could be like, "That sounds good, or I'm not interested ," or whatever. But the fact that just having that done and having a place for people to go to you, and then having a conversation with them in person was really... I built a lot of... 

I mean, a lot of the people that I talked to back then, I'm still friends with now, like, they're still part of my local inner circle. I mean, they promote me all the time. And those are the same people that referred me to other places that I got calls from. So every relationship turns into something else, and then you don't know what it's going to be or when it's going to happen. But it's just important to build them and keep track of them. And don't, don't treat them like a business interaction. Like you're really building a relationship and see what happens. 

Michael Walker:
That's such a such good advice. 

Johnny Chase:
[crosstalk 00:14:04] And that's small local scale. I mean, when we get into [inaudible 00:14:07] with the cool artists and modern musician, it's that times a million, of course. You got to take a whole different approach, which I'm sure you'll get into.

Michael Walker:
What you said is so important, because I think it never really goes away. It's really all about the connections that you're building with the people around you, the network that you're building, the conversations that you're having. And I've yet to see anyone achieve massive success without having a lot of conversations with a lot of different people and figuring out how they could provide value.

Because it sounds like with you and your case, a lot of these conversations, you took the approach of I'm looking to build a longer term relationship here. This isn't necessarily a one time thing. That's something that's really benefited you in the long term because you took the time to really focus on building a relationship, and having those conversations. So to kind of zero in on a few things that you brought up there. 

One thing you mentioned was really early on, one of the biggest challenges was just that you felt not 100% confident in your skill set as a performing artist. You're a drummer, and still didn't have a lot of experience playing guitar, and singing and playing in these types of shows. And I felt like when you saw other people performing, it seemed like they really know what they're doing. And you mentioned a really good tip, too, was that getting started with open mic nights. This is a really great place to get started. 

It's a great way to start to connect with some people and get some experience performing live. I know for us, Paradise Fears, open mics, that's how we met each other, and that's how we started. And most of the artists I see that are really successful now at live performance started with open mics. What other tips do you have for people in terms of they're afraid of getting on stage? Maybe like, what's some advice that you have for them in terms of stage fright.

Johnny Chase:
As far as overcoming stage fright, start small, I guess. Like the open mic situation, people are generally pretty open to whatever you're going to do. I mean, I see people go out there and just play like a kid's toy. And people would applaud it. I mean, go to places where you're comfortable, or just start with family and friends. I mean, do a practice show and get the feedback saying. And then the more positive feedback you get, the more things you get to work on.
And you're going to get to that point in your head where you like, okay, Obviously, your friends and family are going to... It depends on who they are. They could be really honest, or just like, "Yeah, man, sounds good, you're awesome." So you got to kind of differentiate. Get the people that aren't going to tell you you're awesome just because you're awesome, or because they're friend. But do it at little house parties with people you know, that you're comfortable with, or find a place you're comfortable with first, and then get over that fear a little bit. And just move into a smaller area. 
Or just see if you can sit in with somebody that you're comfortable with that you know that's a musician that's already playing gigs, see if they let you take three songs on their break or something. And that's also a good way to meet the owners. Take three songs that you know, perfect, and you're super passionate about them, do those. Do the introduction with the person that makes the decisions. And if he likes you, or she likes, then they'll most likely give you a shot. 

And then you got to just step up and do it and see what happens. And don't be afraid to fail. That's the main thing. It's like, don't be afraid to fail. I mean, if they believed enough to put you on the stage, then that means you did something right already, and you got something that people want to see or they wouldn't put you in there. And you're going to do bad sometimes, and that's just how it is. You just got to learn from it and take it and chalk it up. 
I mean, everyone that's successful, like you said, has an experience that they could probably tell you about where just everything went off the rails. And it was embarrassing too. It's going to happen, it's going to [crosstalk 00:18:06].

Michael Walker:
Yeah, that's true. [inaudible 00:18:09]. 

Johnny Chase:
And it's always worse in your head than it actually was usually.

Michael Walker:
Usually always. 

Johnny Chase:
Usually always is. 

Michael Walker:
No, it's true. 

Johnny Chase:
A couple gigs, and just network with people and ask for feedback afterwards. And those couple gigs will turn into more, and then the more people are asking for you, the more you're not going to be afraid of anything. Really.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, that's really great fundamental advice. What you said about not being afraid of failure, and realizing that... Was it Thomas Edison or someone who's really smart and influential. I think it was the guy who did the light bulb, Thomas Edison, who made 200 mistakes with light bulbs. He said every mistake [crosstalk 00:18:57].

Johnny Chase:
... to make a light bulb [inaudible 00:19:02]. 

Michael Walker:
Exactly, exactly. It's like every failure, every mistake is just like a learning lesson. So it's not like you even do anything wrong. It's just learning. So one question I have for you is, what would you recommend in terms of what's the process like for someone, let's say Joe Schmo who... That's kind of a not a great name for them. But let's say someone, they've gotten comfortable performing live, and they're ready to maybe perform for a dive bar, or they're ready to even just look at some gigs, and maybe look at some paying gigs. What's the process for them to basically find the right venues, and to reach out and to book one of these gigs and get paid for it?

Johnny Chase:
One approach, I guess, other than just cold send an email, or calling, or interrupting their day, which can just aggravate them and then they're like, "Okay, this does it. [inaudible 00:19:52]" Just do some homework. I mean, find out, talk to one of the staff members, say, "Who does the booking here? Is it the manager or someone that does it?" 
And then if it's a company, then that's a whole nother approach, because then you got to put yourself through a booking company. But if it's just locally, they're booking themselves, then ask. What's the best time to maybe set up a meeting with them, or you say it on the cards, "Can you hand this to him or her," whatever. "This is a couple links in my videos." And then follow up, and then follow up again. And not harassment wise, but keep following up, and coming in there as a customer, introduce yourself and say, "Hey, I sent you this." Don't take up their time, just introduce yourself and keep it simple. 

And then they'll put a face with the name, and then maybe follow up again. And they know who you are, it's a process. I've seen people do it other ways. And it's worked for them where they're forceful, like, "Hey, I'm ready to play this place, this place, this place. You should have me here. I think I'm great." And that's worked. I've seen that work, because people they'll tell you yes to get you out of their face sometimes. So there's that approach too if that's your personality.
There's that's nothing wrong with that, just not how I do it. I'm very more under the radar, kind of humble about it, I guess. I mean, I don't go out and say, "Hey, [inaudible 00:21:06] shows here, you should have me here because everyone else does. I don't do that at all. I'm just like, "I feel like I'd be a good fit for your clientele. If you have a whole new schedule you just feel like filling up, let me know, kind of thing. 

So if you're just starting off, then definitely use email, use Facebook, use YouTube, let them see something of yours. Doesn't have to be well-produced. I've seen really, really, really well-produced videos of bands that aren't very good. And that works well for them, and vice versa. And I've seen people with a crappy video of them at a place, it's with the crowd. And it shows off that they can play in front of the crowd, and the crowd enjoys it. It's horrible audio, but they get booked because it's the energy. 

Just do it. Don't worry about what it's going to look like. Just put it out there, make sure it's good. Make sure you're singing in key, and playing them, and be honest about what you do, I guess. Don't be like, oh, yeah... I mean, I said, say yes to everything earlier. But if they're a country bar and you're not a country, don't be like, "Yes, I could do all country." Do, at that point, only what you do. like, "Hey, this is what I do. This is what I'm good at. If you need something else outside of that and be open. It's okay to say it's not me."

Michael Walker:
Oh, what's up guys, so quick intermission from the podcasts. I can tell you about an awesome free gift that I have for you. I wanted to share something that's not normally available to the public, they're normally reserved for our $5,000 clients that we work with personally. This is a presentation called Six Steps to Explode your Fan base and Make a Profit with Your Music Online. 

And specifically, we're going to walk through how to build a paid traffic and automated funnel. It's going to allow you to grow your fan base online. And the system is designed to get you to your first $5,000 a month with your music. We've invested over $130,000 in the past year to test out different traffic sources and different offers, really see what's working best right now for musicians. And so I think it's going to be hugely valuable for you. And so if that's something you're interested in, in the description, there should be a little link that you click on to go get that. 

And the other thing I want to mention is if you want to do us a huge favor, one thing that really makes a big difference early on when you're creating a new podcast, is if people click subscribe, then it basically lets the algorithm know that this is something that's new and noteworthy, and that people actually want to hear, and so that'll help us reach a lot more people. 

So if you're getting value from this, and you get value from the free trainings, then if you want to do us a favor, I'd really appreciate you clicking the subscribe button. All right, let's get back to our guest. 

Johnny Chase:
[inaudible 00:23:37] contradicting myself there a little bit.[crosstalk 00:23:40]

Michael Walker:
Well, it's one of those things where it's like a spectrum. Where it's like, at first, when you're just getting started, it's basically like, well, you take every opportunity that you can get. But then as you grow, and you start to scale, then you become more and more successful, then all of a sudden, you start getting all these opportunities that are flowing to you. And now you have to learn to how to start saying no to a lot of opportunities. So you say yes to the right ones. 

Johnny Chase:
Yeah. And that first person that books you is going to be your first reference for your next gig too. So do it up right and make sure they have a good impression of you. Make sure you do build a relationship so [inaudible 00:24:12]. "Get him in there. The guy is a great guy, or great girl," whatever.

Michael Walker:
You found that nowadays, you kind of reach out to them online. Can it work just as well? 

Johnny Chase:
You got to read the room for that too. If you do that approach, sorry, [inaudible 00:24:26] to interrupt you, if you do that approach make sure you know, if it's a business, don't go there during the rush periods. Go there, you got to be smart about it if you're going to do that. If you go there between 11 and 1, and that's a place that's busy for lunch, they're going to be like, "Get out of my face. I'm busy." So figure it out beforehand. 
Don't just go bar to bar and start throwing CDs at people or whatever, and then handshake and then leave, because it just comes off as insincere probably, I would assume.

Michael Walker:
Right. I really like how you put it too in terms of... I think probably one mistake that I've seen a lot is artists will over... Like in their first message, will just give way too much, like their entire bio and all their songs and everything. And it's just way overwhelming. It's like asking someone to marry you on the first day. So one thing you mentioned was about how usually your process would be first asking one of the workers maybe, who's responsible for booking the shows. And then it's like-

Johnny Chase:
What's the best time?

Michael Walker:
Yeah, and then what's the best time to set up a meeting is really a great question. 

Johnny Chase:
How they prefer to be contacted, this is another good question. [crosstalk 00:25:48] Facebook, he does everything on email. When you find that out, then you can go from there. 

Michael Walker:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's what I'm talking about. So figuring out, so that's one of the key goals, like figure out, one, who books the venue, and two, what's the best way to contact them? How do they best prefer? Because most people are different. Sometimes they're like, it's through Facebook, sometimes...

Johnny Chase:
Go see a show there. I mean, go see somebody play there. And you'll meet everybody that will tell you anything at that point because you're there with them. You get a good feel for the place, and what they're like on that night too. Hopefully, you've already done that, if you're wanting to play there.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. That was going to be my next question. Is like maybe if we kind of like the prequel to that is kind of figuring out where it how does someone find the right place to perform in the first place? Like, do you have any sort of process that you'd recommend for someone who maybe they're a singer, songwriter, acoustic?

Johnny Chase:
I mean, I don't do this now, even though I'm usually pretty much [inaudible 00:26:48]. I was so always interested in playing at a place I haven't played before, there might be a new audience for me. So I'll usually start with their Facebook, see if they have any videos posted from people playing there. And then-

Michael Walker:
So do you [crosstalk 00:27:02]. How do you find their... Sorry to interrupt. Do you Google nearby venues? Or how do you find those-

Johnny Chase:
Either that... I find them that way, or I'll take an artists that I know that plays around, and I'll go to their page and find out where they play. If you're like me, there's different approaches. And then most times, they'll have videos of them playing at different venues. And you'll get an idea of what that venue is like. And then if you look at the schedule, you'll see what kind of times they have music, and how often. 

Yeah, and there's so much information out there you can get lost in it. So you just need to organize your thoughts [inaudible 00:27:39] space that's close to me, I could probably draw a good crowd there the first time, I could do [inaudible 00:27:43]. And even [inaudible 00:27:44] musicians, I mean, most of them aren't going to shut you out. 
I mean, most people are willing to help. Some people competitively don't, but that's more of the, I guess... I don't know, it's just individual basis. If they're insecure about getting gigs themselves, they may not throw you a bone. But if they're already booked, they'll tell you everything you want to know. And they're like, "Hey, feel free, call this person." 
Now, if they've heard you, it's even better, because then they can recommend... Give you a positive kind of spin. Definitely Facebook and YouTube are huge, or going out, it's even better, if you can. That's more time consuming, obviously, trying to hit other people's shows. Today, Facebook Live, and people are streaming from everywhere now, so you can get a really good idea what an event is like just by watching someone play there in real time. So use all those tools that are out there now. They weren't there before. And they're great. 

Michael Walker:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Awesome. So it sounds like in terms of finding those original venues, a couple of the best ways are just doing a little bit of research, like on the Google machine or-

Johnny Chase:
Google machine.

Michael Walker:
... looking at their friends, or looking at musician friends nearby. So let's say for example, right now, we're in Orlando. And let's say as a singer, songwriter, as an artist, I want to start exploring where we might be some good places for me to play. Should I start by maybe say like live music Orlando? Is that where you'd start or? Because I moved here so I don't technically... I came from South Coast. I don't have a lot of friends nearby that are going out live. 

Johnny Chase:
For me, I've got a friend that moved down there. He is named Adam [inaudible 00:29:36]. When I went down there on vacation, I looked up where he plays, and he does kind of what I do so, and I knew that ahead of time, which I guess it's kind of cheating. But the guy found out three or four places he played at, and there were the kind of popular places like Margaritaville, down on the [inaudible 00:29:52] they call that, the CityWalk, whatever.

If you know places like that, like CityWalk's definitely going to have some live music, CDs play in there. See what else they play. That's kind of my approach, I guess would be. Or just like you said, just Google live venues, live music, Orlando, or live music, even in some outskirts of Orlando and sees live acoustic show Orlando, just things like that, if that's what you're doing or see what comes up. 

It's going to point you in the direction of least some of the musicians that play out in the area. And I'm so acoustic most the time. I mean, I do have a full band. But when I'm booking stuff, it's usually first solo acoustic. And if I see it's all full bands all the time, then I may just leave that one alone and go to the next one or, or ask them, "You guys do solo acoustic shows?"

Michael Walker:
Cool. So maybe step one is do a little bit of research and make a Google spreadsheet of all the different venues locally that you want to reach out to.

Johnny Chase:
[inaudible 00:30:53]. 

Michael Walker:
You know we [inaudible 00:30:54] what you got.

Johnny Chase:
[inaudible 00:30:57]. You put a smiley face next to this one and a check mark next to that one.

Michael Walker:
So venues. 

Johnny Chase:
If you're a blues guy, that BB King place [inaudible 00:31:12] upon you, that's a good place to start. Or if you're starting off, I mean, look up open mics. And a lot of times, open mics will have one night that's open mic, and then two or three nights that are paid live music nights. 

Michael Walker:
So in the spreadsheet, we add an additional sheet called open mics.

Johnny Chase:
Yeah. 

Michael Walker:
I just want to bring these back to the spreadsheet.

Johnny Chase:
[inaudible 00:31:40] spreadsheet. Open mics, places that have open mics, typically will have live music on Friday or Saturday also.

Michael Walker:
Cool. So you go through, you make a big list of venues for open mic nights. And then you can also start seeing who's performing there. So let's say for example...

Johnny Chase:
Especially starting off, or getting in a new city, definitely. If you're established, it's a whole different approach, of course, because you have a reputation probably. I mean, it's still good to research, no matter what level you're at, just to find out what's going on, get the vibe of the place you're playing, or the area you're playing, and what the music seems like.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Yeah. And so then you can go to their Facebook or their website, look at their events, you can see who's performing there. And then once you start making a... You might even also make a list of artists. So maybe we have venues, open mic nights, [crosstalk 00:32:33].

Johnny Chase:
... that you are similar to, that are playing out already. I mean, because if you're a rock, you're not going to try to book yourself in a blues club, and other country club, because you wouldn't be ideal for that situation. Unless they have theme nights or something where they do certain things on certain nights. So you definitely narrow down and be smart about it. That'll save you time in the long run.

Michael Walker:
Awesome, so you start making a list here. And then that also kind of feeds into it to each other, then you can find venues that book these kinds of artists. You can even start reaching out some of these people, just start building some connections. Awesome.

Johnny Chase:
Become their fans too. I mean, if they're like your music and you buy and dig what they're doing, come out and see them. Be part of that life, and everybody can be. And don't be the guy sit in the back of the room critiquing what they're doing. Be up front and cheer them on. People appreciate that kind of stuff.
If I'm playing and there's someone awesome playing, people get in their own little worlds and I'll be the first one up there clapping, like yeah. Then everyone else starts clapping. It's like oh, yeah, these guys are good. It pays to be that guy that helps on both ends of the spectrum. 

Michael Walker:
I think the underlying tone that I get from you too that I think is a huge fundamental part of your success doing this, has been the fact that at every point, it seems like one, you're built on... you really look to build a long term relationship, and you're looking to provide value, and you're looking to pump other people up and to provide that. 
And I think that that's one of those inner kind of shifts that people... Like if you can kind of change the question from me, me, me, or what's best for me. Kind of start thinking about how can I really make this as best [inaudible 00:34:19] as possible for you and how can I build other people up? There's kind of that shift. That's counterintuitive, because you think the more you focus on yourself, the more that you can build things up, but it seems like a lot of times it is through that [crosstalk 00:34:34]

Johnny Chase:
... you can do for you, that's what you can do for your venue.

Michael Walker:
There you go. [inaudible 00:34:38]. All right. Step one is that people do some initial research. Step one, research so they start looking up open mic nights, they create a super sexy spreadsheet where they have a big list of people here.

Johnny Chase:
[inaudible 00:34:54] best colors.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, make sure you get some good fonts and colors in there. And then let's say... So step two, we're going dive in little bit into the process about reaching out and figuring out... That first reach out is really about finding someone to connect with and asking them, first, who books to shows? And second, how do they prefer to be reached out to? 
Let's say that right now we're looking at this venue right now. And we're like okay, I've done a little bit of research, I made a big list. I'm like okay, this is one place, similar artists, it's really solid. I want to perform here. Then what would your next step be? 

Johnny Chase:
Well, if you are local, definitely visit the place. If you're not local, then reach out to him. 

Michael Walker:
So we're starting out, so we're coming here right now. And you mentioned Facebook is a great place to reach out sometimes. You calling them [crosstalk 00:35:50]

Johnny Chase:
I don't always expect back from the Facebook ones. It's kind of a sales thing, how many touches does it to take before you make a sale. Same thing with... They see your name, they read the message, they may put it off because they're busy people. I mean, they're running the business. Then maybe if you can visit the place, it's always great to visit a place, and put a face to the name and introduce yourself.

I don't always like... You're not going to give me a whole pitch. You just tell them what you do, you're interested by music. And if you have a list of places you've played, it's always great. Or if you're going to call, you can't visit the place, then call, like I said, not during a rush time. And just say, "Hey, I'm interested in playing music. Is there anyone I can talk to that's in right now?" 

And if they say yes or no, or who would that person be, get a name. And they're not going to typically give you people shifts, either. So say, "Hey, is it this certain night they're usually around or?" It sounds you're not asking too many specific, weird questions. Because you do not want to come off as like, "Does this person get off every night?" You got to be careful of that.

Or like I said, sometimes it is a company that books them, and then they get a whole process. And that's not a bad approach either. I've seen a lot of people do that. I don't like to rely on companies for booking, because I like to have control, I guess of where I play and when I play. But out here in St. Louis, there's TalentPlus, there's Contemporary Productions, and there's a third one that I don't do a lot of business with, because they're more of wedding type things. 
But they have a whole process of how they prefer to be contacted. And they want a package from me, it is very specific. And they'll have people that review and get back to you, and they'll kind of let you know when gigs that fit your style come up. And they'll pitch it right and take a percentage, of course. It depends on the company. Some of them are more prestigious, and others people will see, "Hey, this guy's getting booked by TalentPlus, he must be pretty good." And that'll kind of open up some other doors for you too, possibly. But depends.

Out here, I had to do that, because there's some venues I really wanted to play at that only look through companies. So I had to go through that route to get into that venue, like the casinos and things like that. These are definitely the higher paying gigs. And they won't book you because they have contract with companies already. So you have to book with them. So that's a whole another approach definitely worth mentioning because it's definitely... 

You get in good with one of them, and they like what you do, they'll pitch you. And that kind of takes some of that pressure off of you. And they'll help negotiate pricing. There's a whole another thing too, which is, once you get to the point where you're able to contact them, then you got to tell them what you're worth. That's a whole another mindset and whole another strategy thing. 

Michael Walker:
Yeah. So I definitely want to start digging into some of that because I think that's a big stumbling block for people too. Yeah, I do. I remember... And it sounds like what you're saying is that some of these companies, the more prestigious ones, you're not going to want to start out by reaching out to them. You kind of want to start by doing the things that we're talking about right now, about kind of building your catalog and getting better at performing. And then at a certain point, you probably have kind of come across some of them naturally.

I know there's certain venues where it's like they only book through there. And so then it makes sense maybe to partner up. I know, with Paradise Fears, there's was a casino show that we played once at Mohegan Sun. It was like a $12,000 show. And they got us eight hotel rooms. And there's six of us in the band. It was like over the top. We're like, wow.

Johnny Chase:
[inaudible 00:39:22]. 

Michael Walker:
Yeah, just ridiculous. And so, it is a really awesome area to dig into at a certain point. But one thing I want to dig into more is... So you mentioned initially, what you'd recommend in a situation like this. So one, we're building our super cool spreadsheet. And so we have our list of venues, and then we probably also have contacts [crosstalk 00:39:47].

Johnny Chase:
Make sure you google Walker is awesome when you [inaudible 00:39:50].

Michael Walker:
We're trying to fix the Google algorithm so that when you type in Michael is awesome, that instead of Michael Shannon is awesome, it's like Michael Walker is awesome. Apparently, Michael's awesome jumping off the roof is the thing. It's the number one search [inaudible 00:40:04]. Maybe I just need to jump off a roof now.

Johnny Chase:
Take the video, there you go. 

Michael Walker:
Every time we type that, it's going to help the algorithm. 

Johnny Chase:
I mean, we're kind of gearing this towards what I did to start off, which is good and all. I kind of talked a lot about the covers. I guess, there are definitely still musicians out there that don't want to touch covers, they want to be an artist and only be an artist. And there's nothing wrong with that. And there's a different approach for that, too for when you're doing these searches. Just tailor it to places that may...
It'll take more research, finding the places that only do original music. And those are places of [inaudible 00:40:44], paying off the door, or sometimes you can get a guarantee. But there's definitely a different approach for that, too. So that might be another area for your spreadsheet, is original venues that focus and primarily promote original artists in the area. Because that's-

Michael Walker:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 

Johnny Chase:
And those places, usually you're playing a night with two other bands or another band, or you're sharing the night with a few different artists. That's another thing to be asking at open mic nights, or when you're research and checking out venues, find out where those places are specifically. Even if you already doing covers and you're writing, that's good information to have.

Michael Walker:
For sure, yeah. And I do know, just based on doing that Google search in Orlando, there's quite a few live music Orlando that came up that I recognize from performing with Paradise Fears. Were like Hard Rock Cafe, Will's Pub, The Social. And I think that there can be overlap. There can be overlap, where it's sometimes they'll do door deals, sometimes there's different [inaudible 00:41:53] really different stuff. That makes a lot of sense.

Johnny Chase:
Some places will even do a percentage of the bar. If you can work that out, that's always good. That means you're bringing in drinkers, and they're making money. And if people are having a good time and spending money there, you're going to get a little bit out of that, too. 

Michael Walker:
Awesome. 

Johnny Chase:
Did you guys start off doing only originals? Or did you kind of-

Michael Walker:
We started off doing open mics at our high school, we went to high school together. And then we played [inaudible 00:42:23] like Battle the Bands, we started doing this. And we played a bunch of original shows not for a lot of people. We played quite a few cover shows too. I remember playing with the band where we played a couple of graduation parties and things like that. 

Johnny Chase:
We didn't talk about radio. I mean, that's another great thing. If you have a CD, try to find a way to get it local show if there's a local show, or a local DJ. Those DJs go out to clubs too. And if you can find out where they're going to be, get a [inaudible 00:42:55]. Everyone loves to hear that person is going on the radio that they're having played in their venue. That's huge. 

Michael Walker:
Cool. 

Johnny Chase:
There's so many ways, so many ways.

Michael Walker:
So one thing I want to dig into is... So we find the venues, we start making our list of venues that we perform at, and then we also grab the contact. So then maybe we just start going through and start contacting. And so in this case, we're looking at music calendar, then the other number that gets pulled up. So we will add this to the spreadsheet.
And then when we are contacting them, the conversation usually goes something like, "Hey, I was wondering who's the best person to talk to, that kind of handles booking live music for you guys? Are they in right now?" If they say, "Yeah, let me go grab them."Then great, you can start a conversation. If they say, "Oh, this person is not in right now." "Okay, awesome. So do you know what's the best way to get a hold of them? Or how does he prefer to be reached out to?" And then they'll give you the email address or the phone number.

And basically just being transparent with them, saying, "I'm a musician. I'm interested in performing live for your venue." Then you can start to kind of dig into... You probably add that to your spreadsheet too, about their process maybe. And so let's say... Now, let's see through that next part of the conversation. The sticky part of the conversation, where maybe people are wondering how do I charge? What should I charge? How do I charge? what's appropriate? So let's say that the person is there, the person that handles the booking there? How would that conversation kind of go like?

Johnny Chase:
Yeah, it's a tricky one, because I don't have a set way I approach that usually. I mean, I do now, I guess. In the beginning, when I was starting off, I was willing to try it on an off night for a handful of dollars and some food, which I learned real quick, that's not the way to do it really, because you're not going to get anywhere doing that, and people will take advantage of that all day long if they can. So that's a kind of individual basis thing.
Like right now I have a set amount that I don't go below. "That's my minimum. If that doesn't work for your venue, then I appreciate your time," kind of thing. I don't know, if I see an opportunity there that's bigger than monetary, like they have, I don't know, clientele or it's a popular place that looks good for me too... I'm not saying play for exposure by any means. But there's never been a time where I decided to play for really cheap, or just to try the place out that didn't get some other gig off of it. 

If you can do that, use it as it was marketing. If you're a marketing person, you do these trade shows. You spend money just to meet people. And that's kind of what you're doing. You're advertising yourself, and you're going to use it to network with people that you think could benefit you. So don't be afraid to go into a place and say, "Hey, guys, I don't do much on Wednesdays. Let me come in and show you what I got for an hour." If you're needing to get your foot in, that's one way to do it. 

Typically, if you have a good video, people will hear you and say, "I liked your sound," or, "I don't like your sound." And you can avoid that whole step, and then you tell them about your prices. Or you ask them what their typical budget is on a Thursday night for music, or Friday night for music. And sometimes they'll tell you straight up, "This is what we pay. Regardless of who you are, what you do, this what we pay." And then you can work out the negotiation there. If you just want to get in and take it.

And if you don't, then say, "Well, I usually charge this much, maybe we can meet in the middle." For the first time [inaudible 00:46:40] well, then you come up to my price, next time... And get at least a verbal agreement of some sort. Most individual owners will definitely shy away from contracts, they don't want to deal with them. I very rarely see one that likes contracts ever. 

Now, if you're doing long term at a place, you might want to some kind of contract so they're not changing their mind. You're locked up for six months at a place and they change their mind after a month, then you get four months to fill again that you could have already filled. So know what you think you should be getting, what you think you're worth. And then kind of feel out what they typically pay. Hopefully they'll just tell you what they pay. And then work on getting them to where your level is. 

And then bring that value. That's the most important thing. If you show up and you deliver, whatever price you said you were worth, they're going to be happy to pay it. They're making money and they're happy, and you're delivering and everyone's happy there. It looks great for them, too. So typically, it'll work out. And I've even done where I'm like, "Hey, I know I can bring this many people."

And we had a night that just nobody showed up for whatever reason. That was one of those nights where it was like crickets. Like an hour in, I'm like, "Hey, obviously, this didn't work. If you want to, we can call the night now and try to redo it another time. I'll lay this on me. Keep money or just pay me a half or whatever." Or weather situation if it's a weather situation. 

Again, that's me showing that I'm not just there for that one night to get paid, I'm there to build a good relationship. And that never happens. So people if they hear that, they're like, "Wow, this guy was serious." And then they'll book me more often, probably. So I kind of went all over the place with that. But I'm just kind of going through scenarios in my head that I've been through.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, that's super helpful, yeah.

Johnny Chase:
There is a place that I've played out for 15 years now that's started off that way. Like the first time I was there, I bombed. Like, "Yeah, I'm going to bring everybody here." And just for some reason, it wasn't anything. It's just like something else was going on that night. I guess, it's another thing put in your notes is if you're scheduling a big show, make sure there's nothing else that's even bigger going on right in your neighborhood that most of your fans are going to be going to you. 

If all your fans are Pearl Jam fans, or a radio fans, or there's a festival going on that night, they're probably already going to that. And you're not going to get very many people to go to your show. So if you're trying to do a big show, definitely look out for that. 

Michael Walker:
Yeah, that's a good point. So to kind of recap what I'm hearing [crosstalk 00:49:25] having that conversation-

Johnny Chase:
Summarize that for me. 

Michael Walker:
Yeah, no, it's great. I always don't want to talk around someone who's a master at their craft because it's easy for them... You're taking a lot of different things at once and kind of putting them out, but it's all really, really helpful. So to recap, it sounds like really the conversation you're going to have is going to depend a lot based on where you're at, and with your experience.

Like if you have a lot of experience performing, and you already know kind of like what your budget is, then you can have a set price, and you can have a conversation. Usually it sounds like a good place to start out is you're having this conversation, and you say, "Hey, nice to meet you. So I'm an artist, I play this kind of music. I'm interested in performing at your venue. And I was wondering... I wanted to get something lined up."

And then they say, "Oh, yeah, so this is what it looks like." Just having a conversation. When it comes to payments, a great way to approach that is by asking them first, "What's your typical budget for a Thursday night?" And that way, you can kind of figure out roughly, what's their typical budget, which is great. Because if it's higher than what you would have charged, then you say, "Oh, great, that's what I charge."

Johnny Chase:
And you might find that a lot. A good point I just want to kind of make. I might have said this before, is definitely don't go in trying to undercut someone else that's playing. Like, "I'll, play for less than them, and I'll do the same thing." Don't ever, that's definitely a bad move. So make sure you're not underpricing yourself too. Because that's going to make enemies.

And people that are probably doing well in the community, which is why they charge what they charge. So I see that happen a lot and it's so frustrating. I mean, I was caught... Not caught doing that. But unknowingly, I didn't think I was worth what other people were charging. I'm like, "Look, I'm not there yet, so I shouldn't charge that." And then some guy is [inaudible 00:51:23]. He's like, "You're charging like $100 less than everybody, and you're doing better than these guys. So just charge what you're worth." I'm like, "I don't feel like I'm worth that much yet." He's like, "You are, just charge it." 

He's like, [inaudible 00:51:36] "It's not good." I'm like okay, so it's a lesson learned for me. And I wasn't doing it intentionally, I was just... Like, "Look, this is what I think I'm worth." And then I realized that people weren't getting gigs, because I was getting it from there. So I'm like, okay, let's not do that. But then that wasn't... I've seen people do that as a strategy, where I've actually heard him say that, "Look, I'll play this for half that." 

And it's not a good move. So you're doing that business, make sure you're not under selling yourself, or under selling somebody else. If you are going to do it for cheaper, do it on off at night that's not typically booked by everybody else to make sure that they know that's just that price for that night, not normal, ongoing. 

Michael Walker:
Yeah, that's a really good point. Because I think that the tendency for most people is to undervalue themselves. Especially as musicians, sometimes [crosstalk 00:52:30] very self-conscious. Money is kind of a touchy subject for us. We're like, "Oh, yeah it's not about the money. I'll do it." And so it sounds like, a great place to start is ask them what's their typical budget so that you can figure out around what the price is.

And undercutting isn't necessarily doing anyone favors. It's better to charge what you're worth. Yeah, and deliver. And so it sounds like the prices might fluctuate based on where you're at right now. So if you're just starting off, you're just starting to get some experience, then you might want to find some venues where that's kind of okay. 
Like they have people who are where you're at right now, like the open mic nights, and different venues like that. And then as you get more experience, then you're going to start network and find other venues where maybe there's a little bit more cream of the crop. And then you can start having those conversations with those people and booking those shows. And then you wake up one day, and you're making over $100,000 on these shows.

Johnny Chase:
When you're contacting venues and deciding on price too, sometimes it's depending on the size of your group. Find out if they have house sound or not, if you're bringing your own equipment, because that's going to definitely adjust the price you charge. If you got to bring your own sound guy and all that, that's our of your pocket, usually. If they have that in house, and they're paying that part of it, then you might be able to give them a little bit more of a lesser price, if you will. So anyway, quick thought.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, good point. So especially as you're more established, and maybe you bring your own sound equipment, then-

Johnny Chase:
[crosstalk 00:54:05] bring my own sound equipment, even if they have their own because I know what I sound, like who I have. And I might incorporate theirs, but typically I'm self sufficient in that area. So anyway, it's a good thought.

Michael Walker:
It's nice to have control. I've played plenty of venues where [inaudible 00:54:23] is either great or not great. Have your own sound guy. Yeah, have your own sound guy. Eventually, that was really awesome too. He was so good [crosstalk 00:54:32] makes a huge difference.

Johnny Chase:
Someone that knows what to do and knows your songs.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, exactly. Cool. Well, hey, Johnny, thank you so much for taking the time to talk [crosstalk 00:54:40]

Johnny Chase:
... was helpful.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, and again, I think just to kind of recap the thing as a whole, sounds like this is just a great opportunity for anyone who's watching this right now, who you have a passion for live performance, and you want to start performing more and getting experience, and if you're looking to transition from your day job to doing music full time and honing your craft, sounds like it's just a great opportunity to get started. 
And if you just love sexy spreadsheets, and you just want to work with spreadsheets, that's a great thing to get to, too. So yeah, man, I really appreciate you being so open, and coming on here and sharing your life experience.

Johnny Chase:
I hope there's something in there that was maybe helpful. There's a lot of... A lot of it is common sense really, just taking it down. And like you said, organizing it into something that's going to work for you.

Michael Walker:
Very helpful. So I guess last question for you is, for anyone who's watching this right now who wants to check out your music, or learn more, or get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to learn more?

Johnny Chase:
Well, johnnychasemusic.com is my website. You can kind of get to anywhere else from there. I've got links to pretty much everything that exists it seems like. It's got my music, all my originals, got some crisp videos on there, it's got some the TV shows and things I've been on, links to the Facebook, Twitter, and all that good stuff, Instagram, and YouTube. Get on there and shoot me an email, join the fan community. And hit me up on Facebook. 
I'm on Facebook 24/7, it seems like, so I use that a lot to communicate. Yeah, I mean, all my good shows and all my bad shows are all on there. I do a lot of live streaming. So mistakes and all, I have it all there. Like this is me. This is what I do. I hope you like it. If you don't, that's all right. Because that's what I do.

Michael Walker:
Awesome, man. Well, yeah, appreciate you being on here. And hope you have a great rest your night.

Johnny Chase:
You too. Thanks. Appreciate it.

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about the guest today, and you can support the podcast. And there's few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe, then I'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends on your social media, tag us that really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take their music career to the next level. Time to be a modern musician is now. And I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.