Denice Dal Braccio:
I do think joining some sort of group is going to be extremely valuable and I think that's the fastest way to do it. When you're around the other people who are trying to do what you're trying to do, you're going to quickly speed up that process. And you're going to naturally meet the right people who you need to build that network.

Michael Walker:
It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician and it's only getting better. If you have high quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry, and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

Michael Walker:
All right. So excited to be here today with the Denice Dal Braccio. She is the CEO and founder of the number one digital magazine app and electronic dance music publication, EDM World Magazine. She's also the business manager of Adam McInnis Billboard 500 Club. And she has a lot of expertise when it comes to really the core foundation of being successful as an artist, which is really based on growing your audience and figuring out how to monetize your music so you can actually provide value and do it in a sustainable way. And so I'm excited to have her on the podcast to be able to talk about these fundamental things that are always changing. Some parts of it are always changing in terms of on the surface, but then deep down the fundamentals are always there. Looking forward to the connecting. So Denice, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today.

Denice Dal Braccio:
Thank you so much for having me.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. It was funny, we were catching up backstage. It sounds like she's on her way back from a music festival and got stuck in a hotel in Wyoming. So she's awesome that she was able to be here. Maybe before we officially get things kicked off could you briefly introduce yourself just for anyone who has maybe not met you before and you could share a little bit about how we got started and find your way here.

Denice Dal Braccio:
Sure. I first thought I was going to do music management because I really wanted to support musicians in the music space. And I saw that was an area that they were really lacking. Especially the marketing side and the business side. A lot of creatives love to focus on the creative part, but they really struggle with the business marketing side. I really loved that part of it and thought that I was going to be a manager. And then after going to school for business management, I realized that I didn't want my career to be based on someone else's goals and motivations to succeed. That's when I decided to start the magazine. And for me, the magazine really was a great way into the industry because I was able to work with a lot of different people and help a lot of different people, not just artists, but also people who wanted to work in the industry as a writer, or I could even feature anyone on my magazine, which was also really cool. That's how I pivoted to doing the magazine.

Denice Dal Braccio:
And then a little bit later on, I still wanted to be able to work with artists a little bit more closely and help them in the business and marketing side of things. I was just researching and looking for a mentor and someone who would be a good partner with me to work with because I'm not an artist, but I do understand the other side of things. I finally discovered Adam McInnis and I was quietly stalking him, watching his live streams on Instagram. And I actually had listened to an interview that he did with Rick Barker who was someone that I was also learning a lot from.

Denice Dal Braccio:
And after discovering Adam and listening to that interview, I was like, "Okay, this guy gets it. Not only is he really business and marketing focused, but he also is really successful as an artist." And so I was really looking for someone who had both of those sides. And I reached out to him and I pitched him. I'm like, "Here's some things that I think I can help you with your business." And then we started working together and yeah, we've been doing the Billboard 500 Club now for a few years. And it's been absolutely amazing for me and really rewarding for me to be able to help artists and really see them grow into themselves and also being able to help with the business and marketing side as well.

Michael Walker:
That's so cool. So both Adam McInnis and Rick Barker we've had on the podcast and Rick probably two or three times, at least. So I can speak from experience that they're both really high level, high integrity people, which is awesome. And also interesting that you came to this from this background of having a magazine and having the background around the media outlet to bring to the table. I think that perspective is really valuable. It reminds me of ... I read the biography of Benjamin Franklin probably a year ago or so. And one thing that really struck me was how a big part of his success and his influence was because it was right around when the printing press was a new creation that was being discovered and he would really use the printing press cleverly to influence big important conversations and discussions and public matters where he would actually run articles and run things in the media leading up to a big meeting so that he was able to plant some seeds for some ideas.

Michael Walker:
It sounds your experience here working with the magazine has allowed you to really build a network and build some relationships. And all of us, we have our own platforms now, which we can essentially use to ... It's like we have the media in our own hands now. Denice, now that you have a lot of experience working with artists, both in terms of having them submit for your magazine, connecting with them that way and music industry experience, and also working with Adam now, what would you say are some of the biggest mistakes or common challenges that you see musicians struggling with when they come to you?

Denice Dal Braccio:
For sure. I think the biggest thing in the beginning is focusing too much on marketing and too much on the building a fan base, actually. Because I think a lot of times the artist gets lost in that area when really they should be focusing on honing in on their craft and getting really good at knowing how to make a hit song, how to make music people want to hear and becoming an expert in that first. I think too often people jump into the business side of things because they're like, I need all of that and it's just too quick. So I would say I think that's the biggest number one mistake that all artists make.

Denice Dal Braccio:
And then once they are ready to take off, I think they can sometimes be a little scared of what to post. And I think with social media now too, they don't want to share too much of themselves. And so sometimes maybe they do share too much and they don't preemptively say, "Okay, these are the things that I don't want to discuss and I'm not going to cross that line." So I think it's important for artists to sit down and really discover what those things are so that they have some ... What's the word? Some goalposts basically around what it is that they're comfortable sharing, what they're not comfortable sharing.

Denice Dal Braccio:
I also think that they struggle a little bit with the old school way of how the music industry used to run. And also just the fantasy of, I'm just going to be discovered one day. I don't really need to do a lot of marketing. So there's a lot of different perspectives I think artists have in terms of their marketing strategy and how they want to get discovered. Everyone's a little bit different, but hopefully that answers your question.

Michael Walker:
Definitely does. It answers and then some. It sounds like what you're saying is that there's a few different common challenges that come up. And one of the biggest ones is trying to get started before they're ready or trying to start promoting themselves or focusing on the business side before they actually have a product that people want. That's actually honed in, they've honed their craft. So maybe we can start there.

Michael Walker:
So what would your advice be for ... It's a bit tricky one. This is a very delicate matter too because for a lot of us, our art is personal to us and we don't ever want to hear that the music or the product isn't good enough yet because we take that further. Oh, I'm not good enough. And it's not necessarily the case. It's just a matter of chiseling away the ice block so you can have the figurine inside.

Michael Walker:
So how do you recommend someone, one, gain perspective to know is that the problem? Do they need to hone their craft or is it more just around promotion? Where do they get started with deciding is the music up to the right threshold yet?

Denice Dal Braccio:
Yeah, that's a great question. And yes, obviously music is ... Everyone has different opinions on what's good and what's not. But I do think that there is a level of you being able to know if you're ready or not. And one of the things that I think every artist should have is they're go to board of directors. These are people that they respect and they can go to them and say, "Hey, here are 10 songs that I've written. Let me know what are your favorites and what are the ones that you think are the best. And are they ready even for the market?" So in terms of the people that you're going to pick for your board of directors, I recommend that you have a top NR. So someone who is already in one of the big major record labels if possible. Picking a manager as well. Someone who you know is already managing a lot of musicians at the highest level. Picking a booking agent as well, because each person on your board of directors is going to have a different perspective in terms of what's going to work and what's not.

Denice Dal Braccio:
The next one will be a label executive. Again, someone who's high up there. A music supervisor as well. Obviously with sync, we focus a lot of that in the Billboard 500 Club because it is a way to actually make a really good, decent living as a musician. So a music supervisor is going to give you that perspective is can the song actually make us money? The next person would be a PR agent obviously because the PR person is being able to say, "Is this going to work? Am I going to be able to get placements for you in magazines and publishing?" Next would be a journalist. Obviously journalists are people who are listening to a lot of music all the time so they're going to be able to tell you what's going to work. Is it going to be able to compete? Also a hit songwriter and a hit producer and potentially a vocal or songwriting coach. Someone that you work with. They're obviously working with a lot of talent all the time. And so they're going to be able to help you in determining what song is good and what's not.

Denice Dal Braccio:
And then just a general mentor. Someone like Adam or myself who works with a lot of artists. They're constantly hearing a lot of music again. Then another person would be a marketing strategist. And then finally a super fan. So someone who is not a friend or a family, but a super fan is someone who already really genuinely loves your music or your voice or your productions or whatever it is that you focus on. So I think determining those 13 people on your board of directors who you can send music to and get real feedback on what it is that they like or not like.

Denice Dal Braccio:
And then from there you're going to be able to determine, okay, am I ready to go? Is my quality of music ready to really start putting out and releasing music? And then also, which song should I be leading with? So I think if you set that up, then you're going to be pretty good in determining if your music's ready or not. And also you've now, with your board of directors, you have picked your network basically of who are the people who are going to help you as well and be your cheerleaders in all of those different areas.

Michael Walker:
Wow. Mic drop. That's really cool. So valuable. You literally just laid out how to build your entire team and what roles to look for as a musician. So my first thought as you're going through this is, this is so valuable just to have it listed out. All these different roles. And I 100% agree. All of those roles are really important. And then the other thought that comes up as you're describing all that is I imagine most artists are listening to this right now, who they don't have a single one of those and they don't know where and how they'd find someone like that or if they're really early on and their music isn't developed yet.

Michael Walker:
So I would love to hear your perspective on ... Let's say that someone's maybe a few steps removed from needing the full entire team, or is that something that you would recommend from the very start if someone's just getting ready to really ... Let's imagine that this is someone who has been making music for a long time. Maybe they're not full-time with music, but they've been making music for five, 10, even more years and they've recorded quite a few songs themselves and now they have new music. They've recorded a new album and it's their favorite one yet. The production is a level above that anything they've ever recorded. But they don't really have a business yet. They're not making a profit and they don't really have a fan base yet. They're at that point. Would you recommend that they start by looking to build this team as quickly as possible or do you think there's a right time for them to look to start building that team? Or what are your thoughts around that process?

Denice Dal Braccio:
Yeah. I definitely think building your team is super important. Building your network in general. Which is why I'm a huge proponent of the Billboard 500 Club or any type of mentorship program where it's going to let you meet other people who are trying to pursue the same dreams and goals that you're trying to pursue. When you're around the other people who are trying to do what you're trying to do, you're going to quickly speed up that process. And you're going to naturally meet the right people who you need to build that network. I do think joining some sort of group is going to be extremely valuable and I think that's the fastest way to do it.

Denice Dal Braccio:
But then if you don't want to join something, you can also always reach out to people. You just have to be careful because if you're not ready and you reach out, there's a possibility people will just block you and you'll never be able to really open that door anymore just because time is money and because it is a business, some of the higher ups that work at record labels, if they listen to your music and they don't like it, there's a chance that that was your one opportunity and you've lost that.

Denice Dal Braccio:
You can obviously reach out to people one on one and try and do it that way. I do think that's a little bit harder. Maybe the longer path. But that is also always available to people. And then also just referrals from other people. So if you already have good relationships with one person, ask them, "Hey, who do you look up to? Who are your mentors? Who do you go to for advice and for feedback on your music?" And they can also help open those doors as well.

Michael Walker:
All right, let's take a quick break from the podcast so I can tell you about a free special offer that we're doing right now exclusively for our podcast listeners. So if you get a ton of value from the show, but you want to take your music career to the next level, connect with a community of driven musicians and connect with the music mentors directly that we have on this podcast, or if you just want to know the best way to market your music and grow an audience right now, then this is going to be perfect for you. So right now we're offering a free two week trial to our Music Mentor coaching program. And if you sign up in the show notes below, you're going to get access to our entire Music Mentor content vault for free. The vault's organized into four different content pillars. The first being the music, then the artist, the fans, and last but not least, the business. When you sign up you unlock our best in-depth master classes from a network of world class musicians and industry experts on the most cutting edge strategies right now for growing your music business.

Michael Walker:
On top of that, you'll get access to our weekly live masterminds, where our highest level of modern musician coaches teach you exactly what they're doing to make an income and an impact with their music. Then once a month, we're going to have our Music Mentor spotlight series. And that's what we're going to bring on some of the world's biggest and best artist coaches and successful musicians to teach you what's working right now. And one of the most amazing parts is that you can get your questions answered live by these top level music mentors. So a lot of the people that you hear right here on the podcast are there live interacting with you personally. So imagine being able to connect with them directly.

Michael Walker:
On top of all that, you'll get access to our private Music Mentor community. And this is definitely one of my favorite parts of Music Mentor and maybe the most valuable is that you're going to have this community where you can network with other artists and link up, collaborate, ask questions, get support, and discuss everything related to your music career. So if you're curious and you want to take advantage of the free trial, then go click on the link in the show notes right now and you can for free. From there you can check out all of the amazing content, connect with the community, and sign up for the live master classes that happen every week. This is a gift for listening to our podcast and supporting the show so don't miss out. Go sign up for free now, and let's get back to our interview.

Michael Walker:
Super smart. Yeah. I 100% agree. I think that finding the right peer group and finding people you can surround yourself with who are either at your level or they're slightly above your level is probably the best number one way to grow quickly. Forget where this idea was popularized, but found this to be true in my own life and it's been a really valuable principle is that you become the five people that you spend the most of your time with. And so you always want to look at who you're spending your time around and is this someone that's supportive and someone that is actually encouraging you and bringing you closer to your goals? So 100% finding that group and Billboard 500 sounds amazing. And from what I understand so far, it sounds like you basically brought together this network of all these different types of roles so that you can support artists without them having to go reach out to all the different people individually. And now you also have the added benefit of having the network and the relationships built from the start.

Denice Dal Braccio:
Exactly. Yep. That's exactly what we've done. We bring in mentors all the time and we're looking for the highest level mentors, not just anyone. So we do that legwork to really vet people and make sure that these are people who are experts in their field.

Michael Walker:
Super smart. One thing that came up as you're describing too, just the process of reaching out. With Paradise Fears, so much of our success and so much of with Modern Musician, what we've done, it really just comes down to the brass tacks of reaching out and building relationships and having a system for doing that kind of reach out. Like this podcast. It started out as a reach out process. Make a list of all the people and then send out a reach out message. If they don't get back, you wait a week, you send out a follow up message. If they don't get back, a week later you set one final follow up message. And then you rinse and repeat. And I think that there's two things you can invest to quicken your growth rate. You can either invest your money into the right mentorship, the right network. And that's basically going to buy back your time. Or you invest your time to go do it yourself and probably face a lot more rejection and whatnot.

Michael Walker:
But I think you absolutely can build a network and build a relationship, but it's just whether you're willing to invest that time and energy to do that when you have mentors and things like what you offer that allow you to shorten the gap. But hopefully for anyone who's listening to this right now, whether you have money to invest, or you're just starting from scratch, you recognize that you actually have the capability to do this if you're willing to invest your time.

Michael Walker:
One thing as you were talking about that reach out is just if someone who's listening this right now just makes a list of all those categories of people that you mentioned and then maybe makes a list of 20 to 30 artists that are around their same level or slightly bigger and they're an artist that they'd like to go on tour with, or someone that's similar to you that has fans that like your music and you just do a little bit of research on those artists and google who are the people who are booking these artists? Who are all the booking agents? You just list out all those people and you do it ... Manager. You do it for all those roles.

Michael Walker:
Then you have this list of them and you can reach out process and start building a network and building relationships. And I wouldn't necessarily recommend for the reasons that you talked about too, doing all that yourself unless you absolutely have to. But it is a pretty cool day and age where it's look, you can do that and you'll learn as you do it, what works and what doesn't work, but you'll always want to just be focused on providing value and not just me, but looking to build an actual relationship. But you actually ... You can do that.

Denice Dal Braccio:
Yeah. And how you said, having a win-win. Figuring out what it is that person needs and how you can be valuable to them. For instance a music producer, something that I've noticed is that something that is really valuable for them is that they're always looking for high quality vocalists to work with. So if you reach out to them and you start building a relationship, that could be something that you offer and say, "Hey, I really know five amazing vocalists who are always looking for great producers to work with. They're professional. They're always on time. They know how to deliver files correctly." All these things that they typically struggle with and you just hand them on a platter and say, "Hey, here are some people that would be beneficial for you." That's going to build that relationship. And it's a win-win. They're going to want to continue to be friends with you because you've provided them value and quality people. So you want to find what it is that is going to be beneficial for each of those people and try and build relationships around what it is that person needs and make it a win-win.

Michael Walker:
Gosh, that's so smart. Yeah. Always focusing on that with reach out. How can I provide value? What's in it for them? What do they need? Yeah. Even just having a column next to each of those different types of roles. It's okay, what does this person find valuable? What do they struggle with? What do they need help with? 100%. At this point we get a lot of messages from emails every single day and most of them are all like, "Please do this for me, do this for me, do this for me." That if there's someone that actually is the opposite and they're like, "Hey, I'm a big fan of what you're doing and I'd like to help out and provide value. I have experience video editing and I can do X, Y." Or whatever it is. There's always a way to ... If you stay focused on what you just said, thinking about what's in it for them and what do they need, what can I help with then yeah, your odds of getting a response are a thousand times more likely because you are focused on providing value for them.

Denice Dal Braccio:
Yeah. And I practiced what I preach. I did that exact same thing with Adam. I reached out to him. I made a whole Google Doc of these things that you could take action on. I could do them for you, which is what I ended up doing. And I immediately stood out. He knew that I was serious and that I was helpful. And so the more that you can do that, you will stand out. Same thing for my magazine. It's constantly ... Obviously we promote music and that's great, but a lot of people are always just what's in it for me? They never really say, "Hey, I'm going to make sure that I'm going to promote it on my platform and share when the feature's released." Because a lot of times that doesn't happen. And so the more that you can say, okay, what is it that the other person is looking for? What do they want, what do they need? Then you're going to have a better start for that relationship. So always look at what is it the other person needs.

Michael Walker:
Super smart. Cool. So let's go to the next step now. So let's assume that someone has honed their craft and they have music. Maybe they started to build their team and they started building good relationships or they get a shortcut and they're in a community like the Billboard 500 and now they're at this point where they've gotten the green light approval or they know, okay, I'm ready to actually get this heard and it starts to really promote this. What are some of the best strategies that you found to help an artist go from scratch or just starting out to actually building a real relationship and a real fan base from people who are enjoying the songs?

Denice Dal Braccio:
Yeah. That's a great question. I would say that there's so many different platforms and there's so many different ways to build a fan base so you really have to find what it is that you're first comfortable with. Are you comfortable talking on camera and going live and really building relationships that way with your fans? If not, maybe it's more in the DMs talking to people one on one. And really getting to know your fan base, I think is really important. I know you mentioned you've had Rick Barker on and he helped Taylor Swift. And early on in her career, she built her fan base by talking to people on MySpace and learning their stories and connecting. And then she used that for her songs because that was the demographic that she was trying to make music for. The younger 15 year old girl who is struggling and wants to fall in love and all these themes. I think the more that you can figure out who is the type of person that you want to make music for, that's going to help you.

Denice Dal Braccio:
And then also something that I really strongly believe in is having a strong why. Why is it that you're doing music in the first place and who is it that you want to help with your music? And if you can do more than just focus on the music, I think the next part of it is who are you trying to help? Who do you want to serve with your music? And how can you maybe do something else that's going to impact? A lot of musicians create nonprofits or foundations that they're then helping and serving their audience. Lady Gaga has her Born This Way Foundation. And I think it's really great to serve and give back at some point in your career. So thinking about that as well early on in terms of what is it that you want to do with your impact with your music and the themes that you want to talk about with your music? I think I answered your question. I think I went off a little bit, but those are some things that I think are really important.

Michael Walker:
Nah, that's definitely really good. So it sounds like what you're saying is that in addition to ... First and foremost, it's about building relationships with your fans and understanding what would be valuable and what kind of music, what kind of songs would actually resonate with that? And that's super interesting about Taylor swift too, that she had all these conversations on MySpace and then she wrote songs knowing that this is a theme or this is a common pattern or this is something a lot of people can relate to.

Michael Walker:
So I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. I feel like this is a pretty classic question or challenge for artists just knowing where to draw the line between writing music that they feel is authentic to themselves and is for themselves and their own music and their artwork versus maybe writing commercial music to try to please other people or to try to build a business around it. So I'd love to hear your perspective on, is it possible to have a hybrid and do both and or would you recommend leading in one way or the other? How would you recommend that that artist think about that question?

Denice Dal Braccio:
Yeah, that's a great question. And 100% my opinion on it is that that's what's so amazing about sync licensing. Is that you can actually have multiple aliases. And so if you are really focused let's say right now on dance music, which is my area and that really lights you up and that's a big brand that you've built for yourself, but you really also want to be creative and try maybe pop or country or rap, I think that the best thing to do is to definitely be creative and try and test and do those things, but just create another alias for that project. So that way it's not muddying the lines of what that one brand is that you've already built and established with your fans. Because I do think that most fans, when they hear your music, they know what to expect. And then when you go completely turn in a different direction, it can be hard for them to swallow that and still want to support you and listen to that.

Denice Dal Braccio:
So I think there is something to be said for separating your different music into different silos. And with sync licensing, you're really able to do that because they don't necessarily care if you have a large fan base. They're just looking for really good songs that are going to fit with TV commercials and all of that. So that does open you up.

Denice Dal Braccio:
But that being said, I think when you hit a certain point in your career as an artist, you've built that ability to do whatever it is that you want. So if you've already hit a certain level of success and you're happy with that, and you're like, "Okay, I want to now completely rebrand as an artist. Still keep the same name, but I want to now go into different direction and keep it all under one brand." You can definitely do that. That's just up to you and a personal decision I think at that point. Obviously a lot of big artists have done that, where they've ... Taylor swift, for example. She's completely pivoted from country to now more pop. And because it took a long time for her to make that transition and she slowly did it over time, her fans grew with her and most of them are okay with her doing that.

Denice Dal Braccio:
So you can do either way, but I think it's just up to you in, okay, am I okay with potentially making my fans not happy that I've changed genres or do I just want to create different aliases under different genres and keep things separate? So that's my answer and that's also why I like sync a lot is because you're not really stuck into one box. You can create music in different genres and always be creative. Being able to flex that muscle and not feel like you're just stuck doing one thing.

Michael Walker:
That makes a ton of sense. Yeah. I really like that. Being able to create aliases for different genres, different styles so that you don't confuse your original fans.

Denice Dal Braccio:
Yeah. Because you have to think about it as a business right?

Michael Walker:
Yeah.

Denice Dal Braccio:
If Nike, all of a sudden was like, "We're not going to do shoes or athletic wear anymore," people would be very confused. So you have to treat your music career as a business as well. And I think a lot of artists forget that. This is a business. If you are taking it seriously and want to be an artist at the top of the charts or in top of your genre, so you really have to take that into consideration too. How is that going to impact your fans? Because your fans are the ones ultimately supporting you and they're the ones who are going to want to buy your stuff and make sure you continue your career. If that's your main focus. If you're not doing sync. So just you have to keep that in mind.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. You don't want to jump the shark and make people upset because they've grown so connected to you from music and now you've totally changed gears. Yeah, it just feels a bit weird if it's too big of a jump. But also makes sense how you described Taylor Swift's gradual transition too. So there's a way to ... If it's authentic and it's just a part of your natural growth as an artist, that it's possible to take people on a journey.

Denice Dal Braccio:
Definitely.

Michael Walker:
So one question for you would be around ... Let's say that someone's starting from scratch. They don't really have a fan base yet. Maybe they have their friends and family and a few friends, [inaudible 00:29:47] fans, but they just don't really know how do I get started? How do I get my first 100 or my first 1,000 fans? Maybe they've tried posting on different social media platforms. It doesn't really seem like it's really working or they don't really ... They just don't know how do I actually build those relationships with the first 100 or first 1,000 people? What are some recommendations for how they can get started with that first step?

Denice Dal Braccio:
Sure. I would say the first thing definitely is try and pursue sync licensing. The reason for that is it actually is a natural way of you building your fan base for people who actually genuinely love your music as the starting point. Because what ends up happening is your music, let's say, gets placed in a commercial. A person picks up their phone, they open Shazam, they're like, "Who is this artist?" They Shazam it. They discover you. And that right there is they're immediately discovering you for your music, which most artists want. They want to be loved for their music first and foremost.

Denice Dal Braccio:
So that fan now thinks, "Oh wow, I discovered this artist. This is all me." But really you took the time and put in the work to get your music placed in something in sync. And so you're also getting paid multiple times to do that. So you're getting paid up front for the placement and then also on the back end. And so you're also getting paid to build your fan base for free, which is pretty cool. So I do think that is why I love sync so much. And that's one route to go.

Denice Dal Braccio:
Now let's say you don't want to do sync licensing. The other way obviously is you need to figure out who you are as an artist. So what are your content pillars? What do you want to be posting about on social media? I think sitting down and really deciding, "Okay. I really want people to know that I also like comedy and I want to infuse comedy in my brand in some way, shape or form." So maybe you say, "Okay, I'm going to do a sketch and that's going to be something that I post regularly for my brand." So figuring out what are the pieces of content that relate to your personality and your music and how are those things going to fit together?

Denice Dal Braccio:
Having three or four different content pillars is a great place. And test them out. See how they resonate with people. Because I think nowadays people ... How it's changed from the industry. In the past it was just really like your music and if they really like you, they'll try and dive more deep into learning about who you are as a person. But I think nowadays because of social media, people can fall in love with you as a person first sometimes before they even know that you're an artist. So don't be afraid to put out content that's not just music based. And I think that is going to work better because people fall in love with people. And they're going to get to know you as a person and want to support you in whatever it is that you do. So even if you don't want to do music anymore, those fans are still going to want to support you. And it's because they know you as a person and they connect with you.

Denice Dal Braccio:
And the deeper you can go with your fans, the more likely they're going to be long term loyal fans for you as well. So sharing about who you are as a person is really beneficial. I'm a twin so when I tell people I'm a twin, if someone else is a twin, that's a rare thing, then we connect immediately on that specific thing. I think sharing as much as you can about who you are as a person is going to be helpful in building those fan bases.

Denice Dal Braccio:
So figure out what are your pillars. And then from there, start doing research also on what is working well in those pillars. So if comedy is your thing, go open up TikTok or Instagram and see what are the pieces of content that people are posting about, what is doing well, and how can you emulate that in your own way and post that content so that way you already know, okay, this is resonating with people. They're liking this style and how can I film something in a similar style, but with my own twist on it?

Denice Dal Braccio:
This way, you're doing research to see what does well, but it's also true to you and who you are as a person. So that's the research method as well to start building your fan base. Also following other people who are in the same niche and genre as you. Start interacting with their pages. Start building those relationships and commenting on people's posts. DMing them. Start building those relationships. That's going to help as well. A lot of times artists do not respond to comments that are left on their posts, which to me is crazy. You should be responding to everyone, building that relationship because when you get really big as an artist, you're not going to have that time to be able to connect with your fans as much one on one. But when you're starting out, you have that time to really go deep with those fans. And the more you can go deep with those fans, the longer they're going to be a loyal fan with you lifetime.

Denice Dal Braccio:
One of my favorite artists is Marcus Schultz. And every time I go to his gigs, I have seen the same fans. And this one couple, they fly from the UK constantly all over the world just to see Marcus and they're long term fans. The more that you do that relationship building in the beginning, especially when you have more of the time, because you are still growing and building, the better that's going to be for you in the long run.

Denice Dal Braccio:
Same thing for Taylor. She tries to do small things here and there where she leaves clues in her music videos and she'll surprise her fans with gifts and stuff like that. So figure out what it is that you want to do to build those relationships with your fans more deeply. I think if you think about what would be an amazing thing to happen for you as a fan of your favorite artist. If you think about what your favorite artist could do that you could be involved with, what would that look like and how can you then provide that for your audience and your fan? That's going to be great.

Denice Dal Braccio:
So if you can do more personal one on one stuff with them, that would be really cool. I know that any sort of personal relationship or touchpoint that you can have tends to last a lifetime. Obviously it takes more time. But I do think that those work really well in the beginning. And just genuinely ask questions to people in the DMs to get to know them. I have a whole DM strategy that we use for my magazine and for Adam and we just generally ask questions to get to know each person who's following us and get to understand what are their struggles, what do they need help with and how can we if possible help to fill that gap?

Denice Dal Braccio:
So as an artist too, talk to your fans. What is it that they're struggling with? Can you help them? Can you create some sort of foundation or maybe it's just you go on Zoom with them and you just talk with them for five minutes. There's so many things that you can do that can only take a few minutes that will make a long term impact. So you really just have to figure out what it is that works for you and what you're comfortable with.

Denice Dal Braccio:
And again, like I said, if you know what you are not going to want to talk about too, that's really important to clarify so that you don't cross over those lines. A lot of people don't like to talk about politics or religion. Those are common themes that usually people don't like to post about. So if those resonate with you, then don't talk about those topics. But whatever it is, figure it out for you and focus on the topics that you do want to talk about and how you do want to showcase your personality and really build that relationship with your fans. The more that you share about yourself, the more you're going to connect with your fans and the deeper they're going to want to support you.

Michael Walker:
So good. There's a ton of gold nuggets in there. Awesome. Yeah, I totally agree. Being able to have conversations with your fans, whether it's through DM or getting on a Zoom call and asking questions. When you ask a question, it opens up space. It invites them to engage versus if you say something, it's the opposite. Asking questions is so powerful. And the idea of asking questions that allow them to open up and to share the things that they're struggling with, to me sounds like a really powerful way to build a relationship and connect with the fans and figure out how can you actually help them and serve them?

Michael Walker:
I'm curious how that question in particular ... But this is the bread and butter of any business. It's like understanding who are the people that you're serving and what are they struggling with? How can you help alleviate that suffering? How can you serve them? And so something that with Modern Musician, that's how I started is I had a lot of these conversations. I asked what are your biggest challenges? And so I can understand that, but I'm curious, because I feel like it would also be a very valuable practice for artists to get in touch and in tune with their fans. How would you recommend them initiating that conversation since it's a little bit more of a personal thing to ask, "What are your biggest fears and challenges and struggles right now in your life?" How do you recommend [inaudible 00:38:25] that conversation?

Denice Dal Braccio:
Yeah. So I'll give you example of how our DM strategy is. We usually reach out in the DMs once someone has followed us. So that already tells us, okay, they're interested in our content and they want to know more. So I usually say start off with a really easy open-ended question first that doesn't really take a lot of brain power for them to answer. Because you definitely don't want to start off with what are you struggling with? What's your problem? That's way too aggressive and people will be turned off. So for us, for the Billboard 500 Club, one of our first questions is, are you a singer, songwriter, producer or are you just a massive fan of Adam? Where do you fall? So that way we know what direction we want to bring the conversation. So if they're a big fan of Adam's and they just like his music and they are checking out his YouTube reaction videos, then we'll say cool. We can bring them down the path of Patreon and letting him know we have more paid stuff. And there's more videos in that direction. We can talk more about K-pop because that's the main focus of the channel.

Denice Dal Braccio:
If they say that they're a music producer, then we can go more of the direction of, okay, what do you need help with? Who are your favorite artists? You can ask general questions that are not so difficult for people to answer. Most people know how to answer who their favorite artist is. Most people know how to answer where they live. Most people know how to answer, what's your favorite color? Stuff like that are more surface level, easy to answer. I would always recommend starting off with those. And then based on these questions too, you're also learning more about your audience. So you're being able to develop your character profile of who your super fans are and where are they coming from too. You can ask them, how did you discover us? Did you find me from YouTube or was it from this video? What was it about my profile that made you want to follow? So you can ask questions like that.

Denice Dal Braccio:
People love to talk about themselves. So the more questions you ask, the more likely they're going to keep talking. And then something that I've noticed too is when they start asking questions back and wanting to know the same question that you asked, that means that they're really interested and they've moved in my brain from just a general fan to now someone who's more interested in wanting to know more about you as well. So yeah, definitely start off with easy open-ended questions that are just a one word type of thing and then as you gradually start to build that conversation, you can ask much more deeper questions. And yeah, I really like to use it also as research. Market research for what are my fans wanting to know about? And then you can take those themes and use it in your writing for songwriting. And then you can also take some of that language as well for your marketing.

Denice Dal Braccio:
But if you have a conversation with someone and they say they're struggling with depression, then maybe that's the next post that you make is, "Are you struggling with depression? This is something that I struggle with as well." And then you can go and use that content for the post that you do publicly. So I think there's a lot of value in talking in the DMs with people. A lot of people don't like to do it because it's very time consuming for sure. But there's a lot that you can do with that.

Denice Dal Braccio:
Then what I do with my magazine is we invite people to join our community. So we have a free Facebook group. And then you're bringing people from one platform, let's say from Instagram into Facebook. And then they're seeing you on multiple platforms. And the more people see you, the more that they're going to remember you and to be top of mind. Another thing that we invite people to do is we give them something for free of value because email marketing is the most underrated I think marketing, but it is the most beneficial because you can just send off a quick email and ask questions to your audience. You can sell and promote your albums. There's so much that you can do with email. And in the mind of that fan, they're going from, again, a just general person who's following you to then saying, "Hey, I want to know more about you. I want more of what it is that you're offering and I'm willing to give you my email address for that." So once you've gotten that email, then you can also continue to build that relationship less one on one and more one to many because of those emails that you can just send broadcast.

Denice Dal Braccio:
And you can also set up email sequences, where once they join your list, they're getting so many emails that are really bringing them through the process of you teaching them more about who you are as a person, about your music, your story, and all of that. That is also another thing that we like to do early on is give them something for free of value to get them on your email list. Also text messaging now is really big too. So you can always ask for that as well and do that route. But I do think that the more that you can bring people into multiple platform and build that relationship with them and go from one to one, to many that helps for you saving time. And then thinking about making sales and promoting yourself. You don't really own social media platforms, but you do own your email list. And so having that control is really important as an artist.

Denice Dal Braccio:
And I think a lot of artists don't really look at email as that important because it's just email. But when you look at businesses and big businesses, the ones that have been really successful have massive email lists. They focus on it a lot. And now even too, if you'll realize when you go to check out at a lot of big major retailers, they'll ask you, "Do you want this receipt to be emailed to you?" And they're like, aha, that's how they got your email. And now they can market to you. But it is something that a lot of big businesses do because of how valuable it is and how much money can be made. So just thinking about the money making process as well on the backend as an artist, getting that email is extremely valuable.

Denice Dal Braccio:
So make sure that you are creating those things. So in terms of what you can do for free to get their email, you can give away songs for free that are not released publicly. They can only get through your email list. Let's say you really care a lot about meditation and that's a big part of your brand. You could create a free meditation that they can only get if they sign up for your email list. So really thinking about your brand as a whole is really important for you to figure out what it is that you should be creating for your audience. And then on the back end, you can create other products as well. So it's not just your music that you're selling, but it's really a holistic approach to what it is that your brand and your fans want.

Denice Dal Braccio:
You could do meditation retreats at some point, if you wanted with your fans. You could sell meditation eBooks or audiobooks or whatever it is that you think is going to work with your brand. There's so many ways then you can monetize that on the back end. And that really brings people through with your fans in terms of first meeting you and then going up those steps and spending more and more money with you and investing in you as the person, as the artist, and everything that has to do with your brand.

Denice Dal Braccio:
So yeah, that's how I look at it as a holistic approach. Really, you have to just sit down and say like, "Where do I want to take my brand and what else do I care about besides just the music aspect?" And I think that big people like Rihanna. Rihanna now has makeup and she's doing all these things that aren't even music related anymore, but people because they love her so much and develop such a deep relationship with her, with the music, now they're supporting her with other things. And not that she started that in the beginning, but just think that if she did start in the beginning more talking about makeup and all these other things that she's doing now, how much even more of a deeper relationship and connection she would have and maybe even be more of a billionaire than she already is.

Denice Dal Braccio:
I think it's really great too for an artist to just sit down and think about where do they want to go long term? And obviously you can always pivot as you grow, but just having some sort of plan and starting to implement that is really important. And then the last big thing is just making sure that you're sending people again to get their email. Either to your website or to a landing page. Those things are really important and they're oftentimes overlooked. Even with my magazine, when I look up artists, we're obviously looking at what has the artist already done? Do they even have a website? Do they have social media? Do they have any fans at all? What are they doing to promote themselves?

Denice Dal Braccio:
And so many artists these days don't even have a website. And it just boggles my mind, because they're just sending people to Spotify and sending people to Apple Music and all these other places, but they don't have a way to build that relationship with their fans when they're sending them directly to those platforms. So I'm more of a believer to send people to your website or landing page, get that email and then send them off to where whatever it is that you want them to go. It is an extra step but I do believe that in the long run it's going to be more beneficial. So that's my advice on that.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. I hope people are taking notes, paying attention, because there's so much good stuff in there. And what you described just from the process of a DM strategy and asking these questions to connect with them, to get to know them, I feel like that snippet alone has the potential to totally change the trajectory of someone's career. Because especially in that early stage, when they have no fans at all, actually caring about other people and getting to know them and asking them questions and learning, using that as market research, I think is the thing that is probably the number one thing that any artist can do. Yeah. It's also super in line with what we coach and what we help artists with too is we call it the in tune process about having those conversations. But it's exactly what you just described. And everything that you're saying is on point too about owning your platform. Using social media but it's not necessarily a place that you actually have access to be able to send broadcasts and emails and text messages to those people. So having your own platform.

Michael Walker:
We actually have a software as a service that allows you to build your own platform and build your own funnels and websites and have a CRM to manage emails and text messages and whatnot. But no matter what you're using, MailChimp or ActiveCampaign or anything, that's probably one of the top three things for sure that is an asset in your online business, in your music career. So yeah, this is all awesome. I feel like we could talk probably an extra three or four hours about all this, but I know you're busy so I'm going to wrap things up so we can let you go.

Michael Walker:
But Denice, thank you so much again for coming on here and taking the time to share from your experience. And for anyone who is listening to this right now who would love to go deeper or learn more from everything you guys are doing with the Billboard 500 and all the resources you guys offer, what would be the best place for them to go to dive deeper?

Denice Dal Braccio:
Sure. Yeah. So for the Billboard 500, you just go to the billboard500.com. We do have an application process. So we are selective in terms of who we allow into the club because we do just want people who want to be in the top 1% of the music industry and who are really serious about it. But if you're not ready for that, then feel free, you can always reach out to me personally. I'm happy to always talk to people in the DMs. My Instagram is just DeniceDB_ and Denice spelled with the C. D-E-N-I-C-E-D-B_. And I'm also ... Just for my magazine you can always reach out, @EDMWorldMag. If you have music that is dance music, and you want to submit it, we're always looking for new artists obviously to feature and promote. And if you are going to also help share, that's always a bonus.

Denice Dal Braccio:
So put that in your pitch that you are willing to share. And whatever feature that we do we usually like to do more in-depth interviews with artists. Because again, like I said to me, it's really important that the artist and fan are really learning who you are as a person, as an artist. So we like to focus a lot on deep dive interviews. So if that's something that you're interested in, that's something that we tend to prefer to do for my magazine. So feel free. You can go to our website as well, edmworldmagazine.com. Or check out our app as well.

Denice Dal Braccio:
So definitely a bunch of places you can reach out. And yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing from those who reach out and I'm looking forward to helping support. If you are going to join the Billboard 500 Club, that's just been an awesome passion project of mine personally and love to see artists grow and develop in there. So yeah, hit me up. I'm excited.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Yeah. Again, thank you so much for everything you guys do and we'll make sure to put all the links in the notes and the description here for easy access. Until next time.

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today. And if you want to support the podcast, then there's a few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe, then that'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends or on your social media, tag us. That really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take the music career to the next level. The time to be a Modern Musician is now. And I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.