Jon Anderson:
With your pitch, how you just honed it over time, the act of just giving your pitch again and again, and seeing what resonated with people. You will be able to find out what's unique about you, as you pitch yourself. The only way to tell if a story is resonating, is to tell it.

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Michael Walker:
All right, I'm excited to be here today with Jon Anderson. Jon is the founder of Two Story Melody, a music blog, and Two Story Media, which is a music PR firm. He's also the author of a book called, How to Promote Indie Music, about building fan communities, and it was a top new release on Amazon. Now he helps artists to be able to market their music, and he's personally placed hundreds of pieces of press coverage, for artists.

Michael Walker:
So that'll be great to bring along the podcast and have a conversation about, as an indie musician, what are your opportunities in terms of the promoting your music, getting it out there? Especially if you're looking for PR or press coverage, what are some best practices for actually thinking about the process of reaching out, and who to reach out to, what's the right way to reach out, which I think is a really helpful kind of fundamental process to get good at. Jon, thanks so much for taking the time to be here today.

Jon Anderson:
Yeah, thanks for having me on, Michael.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, for sure. To start out with, I would love to hear a little bit about your story, kind of how you founded Two Story Media, and how you made it to where you are now.

Jon Anderson:
Yeah, totally. Let's see, I'll try to figure out how far back to go. I've been a songwriter my whole life, but I have never felt like I was ready to go full-time into music myself, but I always felt like I wanted to have skin in the game of music industry. I went to college for marketing, and then I came out and worked at a marketing agency for about five or six years out of college. I found during that time that I really needed to be doing something related to music, to feel filled and to feel energized. I couldn't just be writing about... We were doing B2B tech marketing, which is IT firms and things like that, so I wanted to have skin in the game of the marketing industry in addition, writing about IT support.

Jon Anderson:
So I started Two Story Melody, which is the music blog, as a passion project, just as kind of something to do, to think about songwriting, think about music in my spare time, and my time outside of work. I had a few friends who were practicing musicians, and I interviewed them about their songwriting processes. Over the period of a few years, the blog just started to gain some traction. We had some people who asked to write for it. We interviewed more and more musicians, and over time it really grew into a thing where I felt like we were publishing a good amount of content and reviews and interviews. We just had some name recognition in the space, and it was maybe a few years into Two Story Melody, I started getting requests from artists that we would cover, "I love the piece that you guys wrote about me. How can I get more of these blog articles? Or how can I get more coverage like this?"

Jon Anderson:
So I started to do some free back-and-forth email consulting with people like, "Hey, here's what I would do. Here's what works for..." and out of that, Two Story Media was born, which is the PR side of things. I started taking on some clients, and networking with other blog editors and things, and helping artists get press coverage at other outlets. So that's the backstory for both of those firms.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, cool. Awesome, man. Thanks for sharing. When you're looking to build a holistic music career, there's a few different roles that you're looking to fill, and PR and publicity is one of those roles. I'd love to hear you talk about, who's going to be the right fit? Who's the right type of artist who really should be looking at leveraging this as a resource? And what are the main benefits that they can get from a good blog article, that's written about them?

Jon Anderson:
There are a few different ways to think about this, and in the PR world, I probably have an unpopular opinion on this. There are PR firms out there who view PR as an awareness generation machine, where you're getting in front of new eyes, you're getting in front of the audiences of blogs and things. I actually don't think that PR is best for that. I think it's best for artists who have some story or audience already in some stage built, and it's best for engaging that audience and just further developing a story that already exists.

Jon Anderson:
What I talk about with this a lot, is running Two Story Melody. The way that we get traffic to our blog is we almost totally rely on the traffic that our artists already have. If we write a piece about an artist, most of the traffic that goes to that piece is from the artist fan base, when they share it on social, or when they're searching for it. We only get about 12 to 14% of our visitors returning to the site, every month. That means we write a piece, the fans of the artists come and read the piece and they're like, "Oh, this is awesome! So cool to read about how you made the song, and what went into it and stuff." Then the fans of that artist go away and they probably never read Two Story Melody again, but they go away with the story of the artist. So it builds the fandom of the artist, but it doesn't necessarily get them in front of new eyes and ears.

Jon Anderson:
So I think that is the biggest use case to me is, it's credibility building. You can use blog articles, and press coverages, clips and pitches you do, whether you're booking a tour, or reaching out for more press coverage, or whatever it is. It's also engagement with your fan base, it gives you a chance to tell your story in another outlet, another medium, to your fans.

Michael Walker:
That totally makes sense. I appreciate your transparency around just what to expect. And who is it for and how can they leverage that in the best ways? It sounds like what you're saying is that it probably depends on the situation, but in a lot of cases, it's not necessarily the main purpose that you're going to get millions fans from getting articles, but it's going to really allow you to get credibility, and position and tell your story. Also, hone your story in a way that allows you to dig deeper into who you are, and what you stand for. Because I think it's hugely valuable for the right purpose.

Jon Anderson:
Yeah, I think I liken it... I'm a fan of the Steelers, and one way that I'm a fan of the Steelers is I read all the news about the Steelers. I read all the written articles about, is that Mitch Trubisky in the off season? What was that? I'll read that stuff not because I'm being exposed to the Steelers for the first time, but to deepen my fandom. That's how I view PR for artists.

Jon Anderson:
If you're in Rolling Stone, sure, maybe you'll get in front of some new eyes. Most artists are not going to get in Rolling Stone for the foreseeable future. Most of the indie artists I work with, that's down the road for them. But it does give you a chance to create more of a world, and more of a context around your artistry, more of a story and more credibility, and ultimately that leads to bigger fans.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. That makes a ton of sense. It's like a lesson in learning how to hone your story, and kind of figure out what is it about you that's remarkable, that you can talk about, lean into. It seems like that's the kind of thing that is really crucial, just from a foundational point of view. It's something that usually we kind of go deeper and deeper into, but it seems like that's a great benefit that kind of come from figuring out how to craft your story, and see how someone who's a talented writer can look at the block of ice that is you, and can chisel it into a story and it's something unique. I think it's probably a really valuable, sort of self-discovery tool.

Jon Anderson:
Totally. I think it's super fun. Artists always really enjoy reading the articles about them too, because you get to see, "Oh, here's a third-party objective perspective of what makes me interesting." I think it's really helpful.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, a hundred percent. It's interesting, just that idea of the main question I think we're all trying to answer, whether we're aware of it or not is, "Who am I?" It's something that changes over time. As soon as you think that you know who you are, no, that's not who you are. It goes deeper. But if you can give someone something that allows them to express themselves, or answer that question for them... A lot of times with artists, that's what you're doing for your fans, too. Your music is really about them, and how they're using it to self-express who they are, and what your music says about them. So just got kind of interesting.

Jon Anderson:
Yeah, totally.

Michael Walker:
Hey man, I know you have a lot of experience now, getting submissions from tons of different artists, and writing these articles and seeing what's what works well, what doesn't work well. I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about what makes a good submission for someone, if they're reaching out to you and they want to be featured on the blog? What makes someone really stand out? Makes it really good, versus someone that reaches out and is awful, someone that it wouldn't make a good reach out?

Jon Anderson:
There's a lot that goes into it. Maybe the first thing is, just doing the research on the blog. We get a ton of submissions from artists that are like, "Hey, here's my heavy metal song." And we don't really feature heavy metal, or some genre, or some kind of approach... We're mostly indie singer-songwriter. So if you send me something that's way outside of that genre without acknowledging, "Here's why I think this fits with you guys"... That's a first step, making sure that you align with the outlet that you're reaching out to.

Jon Anderson:
In terms of what makes an editor likely to respond to a pitch, which also... It sucks being an artist and pitching people, because you are going to hear back less often than you would like to hear back. I just want to acknowledge the reality of that.

Jon Anderson:
When you do hear back, it's usually for one of three reasons. Either you have the three things that make an editor likely to respond to a pitch, number one above anything else I think is, relationship. That's something that obviously you can't have if you're cold emailing and doing this the first time, but the emails that I always respond to are from people that I know, whether it's an artist that we've covered before that I have an ongoing relationship with, or with a PR agent that covered multiple artists and I know them, and I know about what they're doing. So if I have a relationship with the person, I'll always respond to the person.

Jon Anderson:
The second thing I would say is, credibility and social proof. If Bruce Springsteen emailed me, I have no relationship with them prior to this, maybe one day will be BFFs, but if he emailed me I'd be like, "Yeah, of course I'm interested in talking to you. You're established, you're credible, I understand what you are, and I'd love to find out how you write your songs."

Jon Anderson:
I think that's probably just the reality for most blogs, especially because like I just mentioned, most blogs are reliant on artists to drive their audience. So if you have an artist that's coming to you, "Hey, I just racked up 5 million streams on Spotify, I got a placement in like Pitchfork," or whatever it is, I'm at least interested. Oh, other people are talking about this artist, what's going on? I'll probably like them, considering everyone else likes them.

Jon Anderson:
So I'd say relationship, I always respond. If I find them credible, I'm likely to respond. Then the third point, which I think is maybe the most appealing, is the story, the narrative aspect. If you have a compelling story, maybe something personal led to the music, or you had interesting background or whatever it is. If you can capture the narrative angle, that's the third piece that makes an editor likely to respond.

Jon Anderson:
I would say if you have all three of those pieces, if you have the relationship, credibility, and a good story, you are almost guaranteed to get coverage. If you have two out of three, you have a good chance. And if you have one out of three, it's usually story, if you're starting from scratch. That gives you a shot, but you'll just have to do work to build up the other two.

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Michael Walker:
That's super helpful, having those three different categories of things to look for. There's two things that would be great to dig into, from there. One is the credibility side of things. I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you can hone that in a way that, maybe someone doesn't have a lot of credibility starting out, do you recommend that they still do some inner work to try to figure out, "What do I have about myself and my career, even though I'm just starting out?" Inserting some credibility, or do you recommend that they just say, "Hey, you know what? I'm just starting out. I don't have any credibility yet, but I've got a great story."

Michael Walker:
What are your thoughts around generating that credibility? Also, this kind of brings to mind and this isn't necessarily something that I would recommend as good practice, because this is really on the edge of whether it's a good practice or not, but I remember when we used to walk up to fans waiting in lines for shows, and we did that for All Time Low, and I just remember that when you do that, you're essentially making a pitch every single time you meet someone new. So by its very nature, you start getting good at pitching and you start figuring out, okay, what works or what doesn't? And like when I say this-

Jon Anderson:
If you feel good pitching by the end of it... You felt good by the end of it?

Michael Walker:
Dude, I could still give you the pitch now, like 10 years later, and it would be pretty close to what it was. It was almost like door-to-door sales, probably similar to that. Also, like a comedic act, or if you're playing a show, you can get into a rhythm. I remember distinctly, that one of the things that really boosted the conversation is if, when we were walking up to fans, and again, I don't necessarily feel like proud of how we expressed this, because it gets a little bit deceitful, but I remember walking up and when we were introducing ourselves, we're like, "Oh, my name's Michael, I play in a band called Paradise Fears," and basically I remember we're like, "We're traveling with All Time Low, meeting fans who are waiting in line for shows and sharing some of our music, if you guys want to hear one of the songs."

Michael Walker:
Technically it was true, we were traveling with the tour, but we were like slumming it in our Honda Civic cars, sleeping in Walmart parking lots. We didn't have a personal connection with All Time Low, but when we said that, people, their ears perked up, and it was like, there was a shift, there was a mental trigger. There was something, where there was at least a chance, "Oh wait, do these guys know All Time Low?" Like that instant credibility shift made a big difference. Then people were a lot more excited to talk to us!

Michael Walker:
A few months later, it turns out that we were able to actually open for All Time Low, and we were able to then have some real connection with them. So that is one thing that kind of just sticks out of my mind as, it was certainly played on this credibility factor, and it certainly made an impression, and it helped us with that initial introduction. So I don't know, I have mixed feelings about it, because it's one thing, "I didn't say we were friends, or we knew them!" But there's a little bit of implied kind of thing, there.

Michael Walker:
So I'm just kind of curious on your thoughts in terms of credibility. It's also true that there's a lot of things that are subjective, and that's a huge part of the spin of the story. So I'd just be curious to hear your thoughts on, when someone's looking at really leveraging what they currently have, which if they're early on might not be a whole lot. How do they turn what they have, into something that has credibility, and make a good first impression?

Jon Anderson:
I think there's a few things with that. First, I think if you're just starting out, maybe you don't have any pieces of credibility, and that is okay. You're just going to have to rely on shaping a good story, and it's going to take more work to get going. But the hope is that two years in, then you would have some pieces of credibility, and the pitches and things would come easier.

Jon Anderson:
I think the other thing that I'm thinking about is, when you were calling on that piece of credibility for those fans, like it was such a contextually relevant thing to them, standing in line. Because they're standing in line for All Time Low, so when you're pitching, the way you would grab a credibility piece is like, "What outlet am I pitching, and what will be contextually relevant to that outlet that I could maybe draw on?"

Jon Anderson:
There, it'll be different for each artist. A lot of artists who are just starting out, like maybe you called on All Time Low as a connection, like maybe you have connections like, "This was recorded in a certain studio," or "I know this artist," or "Someone features on the track," or something like...

Michael Walker:
Yeah, that's a great one, "Worked with the same producer who worked with All Time Low."

Jon Anderson:
Right, yeah. That's one that I'll see often, is like, "This song was produced by this person, who also produced Phoebe Bridgers," or whatever. So those connections can be a way of transferring credibility onto yourself, even if you don't have the 5 million streams on Spotify. But yeah, that's what I would say, just look for contextually relevant things. Then also acknowledge if you're just starting out, maybe you don't have anything, and that's it.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, that's a great answer. A great reminder too, of how valuable it can be to build some credibility, by understanding other artists that have built credibility, and doing things like work with the producer that worked with them, record one of your songs with them, and the song is probably going to be amazing. It's going to put you a step closer to them, so that makes a lot of sense.

Michael Walker:
Then the third thing that you had mentioned was around like what, in and of itself, has the potential to be able to land an opportunity, even if you don't have the other two, which is having the narrative or having a really compelling story. So I would love to hear you talk a little bit about that idea of, what goes into a compelling story? What are some of the traits that someone could you look at?

Michael Walker:
Similar to the way that we're looking at is credibility, I think that one of the biggest challenges for a lot of artists is that they feel like they don't really have that much about them that's unique, or a compelling story, and they're just trying to figure out like, "How do I communicate who I am, and my mission and my story, in a way that is unique and is compelling?" So maybe we could shine a light on some pointers for how someone could initiate that process?

Jon Anderson:
Yeah. So, the easiest way to highlight, in my mind, what a good story is to hold it up against pitches that are not a good story, which unfortunately, we get a fair amount of. It's pretty common for an artist to say, "Hey, I just made this single, I spent the last year working on it. I poured a ton of emotion, and heart and soul into this, and I think it's really well produced, and mastered. Would you be interested in sharing?" That's very bland, there's not a story there.

Jon Anderson:
Good stories usually have a couple things. One, they're unique to you. The cool thing about a story is that, even though it's unique to you, or to a certain context, it resonates with people. So literally just including details... There's an artist that pitched me, who used to be a standup comedian in New York, and buzzed the music bits of his show. Obviously that's a pretty cool story, he didn't just say, "Hey, here's a song." He gave me the backstory, and he gave me the bits that were unique to him.

Jon Anderson:
Almost every artist, if you ask yourself, "Where have I come from? Why am I making this art? Where am I going?" If you answer those three questions, usually you'll have at least an outline of a story. A story usually involves a starting point, a transformation, and an outcome, so if you unpack your background, if you unpack the why of the art itself, and then if you can answer the question, "Where am I going as an artist?" You'll have at least the framework of the story.

Michael Walker:
That's powerful, just those three questions, "Where did I come from? Why did I make this? Where am I going?" We could probably even dig into some of those core elements. I think the idea of storytelling, in general, is fascinating. The Hero's Journey, and kind of these archetypes-

Jon Anderson:
Are you a Donald Miller fan?

Michael Walker:
StoryBrand, yeah I read that book like a year or two ago, I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is so good." This was one that I was like, "Okay, I need to put this down, because when I go through this, I need to take action on it."

Jon Anderson:
Yeah.

Michael Walker:
That's great. Maybe we could dig deeper into those three different elements, or maybe we could take a Donald Miller, or who's the Hero's Journey guy, Joseph Campbell. Oh, one other note that I wanted share, because you brought up a really good point of, you get a lot of the same thing over and over again, and it's because that is a very common theme. Of course, you're a musician, you poured your heart and your soul into it, but so has everyone else who's serious about their music. So what is it actually that sets you apart, or what actually makes it remarkable? What makes it unique?

Michael Walker:
You've probably heard about, or read the book, Purple Cow by Seth Godin. The whole point of that book is that, if you're driving down the street and you look and see a field and there's a bunch of cows, then you don't really pay attention to it, you don't notice anything. But if you see that there's a purple cow in the middle of them, whoa! It captures your attention, it grabs your eye, because it's purple. You're not used to seeing that.

Michael Walker:
What's interesting is, a lot of that is based on context too, because if all cows were purple, or it was in a setting where there's a bunch of different purple cows around it, then it wouldn't grab your attention because they're all purple. So there is something about just zigging, when other people are zagging, or looking at, "Okay, what's the common characteristic of the whole setting right now? How can I create a purple kind of variance of that, in a way that's aligned with who I am? What is it about me that actually is like the purple part of me?"

Michael Walker:
So maybe we could talk a little bit about that, actually. What is it that you think goes into that idea of having something unique or something that kind of stands out or something that's remarkable? And how can someone, as they're telling their own story, how do they avoid just being another normal... Because again, most musicians are going to have the same, "Where do you come from?" "Well, I started playing music like 10 years ago," this might be a similar story. So how did they identify those elements, that actually are the part that's unique? Which they might not have the perspective to notice, they might be like, "That's just me."

Jon Anderson:
I think that's a good point you made at the end, there. I think that can be where it's really helpful to work with a PR firm, or somebody outside of yourself, because it is really hard. You are normal, to yourself, so it's hard to tell what is unique about you from your own perspective. I would say working with a PR agency can be really helpful. PR agencies have worked with probably hundreds of artists, so they're good at saying, "oh, this is what's different about you, out of all the artists I've worked with." That can be helpful.

Jon Anderson:
I also think this is a big part of doing PR well, but just the context, like you said, if you're in a field of purple cows, probably you're on acid, but the cows don't stand out if every cow is purple. So when you're telling your story in different contexts, different elements of your story will be more unique in different contexts.

Jon Anderson:
Then maybe the third thing I'd say is that, kind of like you said, with your pitch, how you just honed it over time. The act of just giving your pitch again and again, and seeing what resonated with people. You will be able to find out what's unique about you, as you pitch yourself. The only way to tell if a story is resonating, is to tell it.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, that's such a good point. Really honing that edge through having a lot of conversations and making that pitch, telling your story, and seeing which parts actually like resonate with people, for sure. Interesting too, in terms of what you talked about with the context idea, sometimes being a musician is like being a purple cow, if you're in the right context. If you're around a bunch of people who aren't musicians, then the fact that you're a musician can be something unique.

Michael Walker:
I think it's actually an opportunity for a lot of musicians that maybe is untapped. For example, I know one of my MusicMentor partners, a guy named Tiamo, he does these keynote conferences where he is basically like a motivational personal development speaker, but he performs music and adds that as an element. In that setting, his music is kind of like a purple cow because it's something unique. It's something that he's kind of adding, to what you normally expect from a personal development conference.

Michael Walker:
So if you're at a musician conference, and you're like, "I'm a musician," then it's not really that unique, because I've run around you as a musician too. I see that a lot of times too, where musicians are trying to promote their music to other musicians, which I'm okay with partnerships and collaborations, but those aren't necessarily the people who are going to be fans or super fans of your music. But finding that context is super interesting. Same thing with All Time Low, when we were meeting those fans who are waiting in those lines for shows, the fact that we were a musician kind of made us a purple cow, in the best way, because the people who are there, it's like they want to see purple cows, they like purple cows, they want to pet the purple cows.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, definitely some really good stuff there. I think you're totally right too, getting external perspective, especially from someone has experience, that has essentially done this with a lot of other artists, who can point out, this is the thing that's actually unique about you, is super valuable. I know that your book, that is a top new release on Amazon is called, How to Promote Indie Music, so obviously getting a placement, or getting an article written about you is one factor of building credibility, and has all the benefits that we've talked about. But I would love to talk a little bit about the landscape of promoting music as well, and building an audience, building a fan base. What do you say are some of the biggest opportunities, or biggest challenges or mistakes that you see musicians make, when it comes to actually promoting their music?

Jon Anderson:
So my goal with the book, was to give musicians a roadmap to understand, what does it mean to have a fan base? What even is fandom? And then understanding what fandom is, then what are like some of the practical steps to building that. So the definition of fandom, that I give in the book, is people who enter into community with an artist. So fandom is ultimately relational. And in my thinking, the reason that people become fans, is because they basically assent to be part of the community of the artist. They assent to be in relationship with the artist, and then with other people who are fans of the artist.

Jon Anderson:
We were talking, before the podcast started, about my friend who was a Paradise Fears fan, a very big Paradise Fears fan. He definitely viewed you guys as a band he was in relationship with, and then also, he viewed it was cool to be a fan of Paradise Fears. Like me and other cool people, are fans of Paradise Fears.

Jon Anderson:
So thinking about that community, if community is what makes fandom, then what makes a community? There's a study that I use as the jumping-off point for this, like a sociological study. They surveyed a bunch of different community groups, and came out with these four components that are part of any community. Shared context, shared perspectives, shared actions and then social ties or relationships.

Jon Anderson:
In the first part of the book, I walk through, so fandom is community with an artist, what is community? It's a group of people who are coming together around a shared context, identifying with a shared set of perspectives, taking shared actions together, whether that's buying merch or attending a show, and then developing social ties relationships with the band, and relationships with each other.

Jon Anderson:
That's what a community of fan base is, and then knowing that, what are the steps to build it? So you have that starting point, I think of it as that's the center of the circle, and then there are a million ways you can go, to build the circle. Usually it's generating awareness first, and then it's like converting people, entering into relationship. Then you have the super fans, who are taking the shared actions regularly together. There's a lot of different ways you can do that, a lot of different platforms, but that's the basics of the roadmap, or the framework.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Oh man, I love this stuff. That's so on point, in terms of building a culture, building community and having that, you almost consider it almost like an inner circle, with different levels of closeness, or like access to and building a community. When it comes to building community, one thing that you pointed to was this quote, unquote "conversion". I think that's a very fascinating subject when it comes to building community, when it comes to building a fan base, and just in general, in terms of promotion and marketing, conversion is a very key concept.

Michael Walker:
It's something that is a key concept in society, and how we function. We have these conversion events that usually are celebrated, like a ritual, we come together and we celebrate an event together to initiate someone from Point A to Point B, like a marriage, for example. It's like it's an initiation, where you bring all your closest circle together to transform from Point A to Point B. There's a very clear conversion process, right?

Michael Walker:
I think the same thing, if you're really thinking about it, intentionally bring someone in your community, in order for someone to come from, and not be a listener, not care about you, to become a super fan, there's a conversion process, there's steps. There's usually these moments of initiation, where if you can be intentional about creating those moments of initiation, where you hold someone's hand as it crafts that threshold, and become a better version of themselves, or become a different a part of themselves, that part of the community is really interesting.

Michael Walker:
So maybe we could talk a little bit about that idea, as it relates to building these communities. What do you think are some of those potential quote unquote "community events"? Maybe you call them initiation events. Or what kind of takes someone from not knowing who a band is, not being a fan, to joining the community and becoming a part of that fandom?

Jon Anderson:
That's a great question, a great line of thinking. I think those are the things, you're calling them initiation events... In those four elements of community that I was talking about, I think of those as the shared actions, like you're acting together. Usually you're either acting, but you're acting in the context of other people observing the action, and often other people acting with you. And the communities that are the strongest, are the communities where people have acted to commit to the community.

Jon Anderson:
I also think it's important to think about the scope of the action, and really the level of sacrifice that an initiation, or an action, entails. Generally the more that you sacrifice or give up when you act, the stronger the tie is to the community. There's plenty of examples, like you said, marriage, I'm shelling out $5,000 bucks for a ring, to give... The act of giving a ring to my wife is a pretty committal, committing, whatever the word is, act. Generally the more sacrifice, the stronger the tie is.

Jon Anderson:
I think you can think of how that translates to artist communities, and just be looking for ways to provide entry level actions, but also to provide like those deeper, more opportunities where people can sacrifice more, to signify their commitment to you. The possibilities are really broad, and it'll also be determined what your perspective as an artist is. One thing you'll see all the time is artists being like, "Hey, I believe in this charity, and so the proceeds from this album that I'm making will go to this mental health awareness charity. If you'd like to like help and support, please donate to the charity." So it's aligning with their perspective as an artist, and it's giving their fans an opportunity to commit a shared action together, where they're giving or sacrificing something. Going to a show, is a sacrifice. Joining a VIP club is probably a deeper sacrifice, or act. There's the band, Lord Huron...

Michael Walker:
That's ringing a bell, but I'm not sure.

Jon Anderson:
Okay, they're like this weird, cowboy indie... They had this thing around an album release where they did a geographic treasure hunt. So for every song they put out, they would have a virtual reality or an AR thing, in a different location, where you had to go to that location to stream the song before the release. It would be some mountaintop in Appalachia, or just these random things.

Jon Anderson:
That's basically super intent, if you're a super diehard Lord Huron fan, and you're literally booking a flight to go to this mountain, to stream the song a week before it's out... That a great example, they're asking to sacrifice a lot, to align yourself with their perspective as an artist. The possibilities are... There's so many. You can ask people to do anything, but I think the important thing is, does it align with you as an artist?

Michael Walker:
Super interesting, yeah. There's one thing I think is pretty fascinating is studying cultures, and even cults, how they work. I'm not condoning cults at all, cults are terrible things. They function in a very similar way. There's a reason we have the word culture, and community. So it's pretty fascinating to see this, like what is a psychological function that someone goes through, and you can intentionally use some of the... It's about building a community, so fuse it in the right way about building a community, that actually fuels someone and helps them, then it's a different thing.

Michael Walker:
One thing I want to speak to is that word, sacrifice. It's an interesting word to describe that action that they're taking, and I think it's true. You can think of it as a sacrifice of like, they're giving up a version of themselves. They're giving up something that they identify with, in order to probably order to gain higher identities. Someone only is going to sacrifice something like that, if they think that they're getting something else in return, so what are they getting in return?

Michael Walker:
They're getting a step closer to the shared identity of the community, or the culture, that you're creating. So they are getting something in return for it. One thing that came up as you're describing that too, is around this idea of, as someone makes that sacrifice of the old self, to become the higher new self, or the shared identity, shared increased status within the community. A lot of what we're talking about is identity shifts, so it's like going to new identity, and a really powerful thing to think about as an artist, as you're thinking about your own community and bringing people into your family, and giving them a big hug, is being really intentional when someone makes that shift. When someone sacrifices their old identity to join your family, to become a part of your community, and structuring some kind of celebration or some sort of process where...

Michael Walker:
For exampled, with weddings, right? When you make that shift, it's like a huge celebration. There's something about the idea of celebration, that I think is really about celebrating a new identity. If you can create intentional celebrations around when someone first comes into the community, where if you celebrate them and you say, "Hey everyone, let's welcome this person in the community! They're awesome, here's who they are," you applaud, you clap. And that person, they just took this step, where it's a little bit of a scary step to take, they sacrificed a piece of themselves, their old identity, to come in. So if you reinforce that with some sort of gift, or some sort of celebration, or something to bring them in the community, I think it's smart to be really intentional about that.

Jon Anderson:
That's such a good point. That in almost any community where you're asked, make a major commitment, like a cult. But on the other side of the action is the celebration, where the choice, the action is affirmed and celebrated. I think that's a great point. There are tons of ways to do that as an artist. The classic example is, you sign up for the email list. That's a minor sacrifice where they're giving up their email address, and then you get the celebration, the welcome email and like the sequence of, "Hey, I'm so glad you're on the email list, here's an unreleased song," or something that's kind of a light version of that.

Jon Anderson:
Then I think maybe as the level of sacrifice is higher, the level of celebration should be higher too. So if they're joining a VIP club or atrium, they're joining your highest tier, you're providing them with as much value and excitement as you can. So I think you're totally right, celebration is a huge part of confirming the new identity. I think that's an awesome idea.

Michael Walker:
Totally. I think another word that's really good, I like sacrifice as a word, because I think it acknowledges the fact that they're giving something up in order to take that next step, which is something I think we don't sometimes appreciate or acknowledge. If you're able to acknowledge that, when they're taking the step, it might be scary for them or something where like they're giving up something in order to like to join what you're doing, and if you can focus on making sure that they feel good, that it was the right step, and welcome them, I think it's really smart.

Michael Walker:
I think another word that goes in line with this idea of investment, they're really investing in you, and what does it mean when someone invests something, whether they're investing their time, exactly. What are they getting in return? To invest something, you're putting something into it. And our money is an extension of ourselves, in terms of it being a tool. I think that's another way of thinking about it as well, is like an investment. When someone joins your community, they're making an investment in you, and they're believing in you, and they're investing themselves into you.

Jon Anderson:
Yeah, totally. I think this is maybe an oversimplification of things, but I think the return on the investment is relationship. I think that we talked about the starting point of fandom is relationship with the artist. And so when you're investing that, what you ultimately want is to be in a meaningful relationship with the artist, whatever that looks like, you want to be in a relationship with them. I think to me, that's the core of artistry is, you're giving these people a relationship and all the things around it.

Michael Walker:
It's super interesting. Yeah. Cool. That's just, I don't know why, like my mind, there's a joke. This, this celebrated our there's. So one thing that's interesting, the way that we're describing this community and like having these, like these circles that kind of that expand outward is that, and when you talked about Patreon, it's almost like you have these different levels of your circle and like different rings that go around the center and like you're at the very center. And so when someone takes a step closer to you, it's, they're, you, they're getting closer to you. They're getting access to you. And what basically what we realize is that what every artist should offer is like at the deepest level is like nude picks for like, so this is a very like close. Yeah. I was debating whether I was even going to bring that up, but it flash across my mind. I'm like, God probably got

Jon Anderson:
Hit the

Michael Walker:
Top. There is I'm really is not expect to go in this direction with this, but...

Jon Anderson:
Also secret the paradise fears right there.

Michael Walker:
You had to be in like the diamond tier to get the nude picks. It's like a there's isn't there like a, again, I really did not expect to take this conversation. This we might, even who knows if we'll even leave this part in, but, but only fans isn't that like a sort of like a tier base, it's almost like a subscription or something like a Patreon, but for horn stars or something, it could, it's probably pretty interesting kind of looking at just how this model works in general, really about access. And just to be clear, I'm not suggesting or recommending that any of you should,

Jon Anderson:
You're recommending that people try start a cult, and that people like offer

Michael Walker:
Make them sacrifice a goat, if they want to join your community. No, like everything. The bottom line is like with any great tool or any great power or influence whether it's money or whether it's any kind of influence, like there's a good and bad, there's a right and evil. And I think generally a lot of times it's not necessarily black and white, but I think generally what has served me really well is by focusing on how can I provide value? How can I lead someone towards what they want in a way that's going to make them achieve like their ideal version of themselves. And there is something about if you're able to keep your eye on the prize, like where that's the thing, and you just keep focusing on that. And then all these tools, all these, like the things that we're talking about to influence people.

Michael Walker:
So bring them into your communities and stuff, but there's, you could do it either way. You could use this and start at cults and bring people in. So there is two different levels of the conversation, right, where we're talking about are these very powerful, influential strategies to be able to grow your influence. But what does that influence really mean? And checking in with yourself is what I'm doing. Am I focusing on helping and providing value for other people? And if so, then that tends to be what works out in the long term. And the other side of it is I really don't think that you can not for very long, at least you can't influence people to do something evil for that long, because eventually I think that it requires deception. Like it requires truth not to be fully disclosed.

Michael Walker:
Like I think the only way you can influence someone is by, in order for someone to quote unquote, make that sacrifice and kind of take that step, then they need for them again, there's a reason that they're taking that step. They need to on the other side, exactly. Right. There's only, it's only a matter of time. If that step isn't good for them, then it's only a matter of time before it comes out into the light and people. And it stops working. Although, I will say very interesting. I've read a couple of books about essentially cults that you I'm reading a book, the big picture right now, it's like about science and humanity. And he's one of the points that he makes is that was around science and like our beliefs and like how strongly we'll hold onto convictions, even when we're proven that those beliefs are incorrect.

Michael Walker:
Things like the earth is flat. Or so the example he gave was a cult where they believed that dooms day was like 2000 or something like that. And there's a group of like 20 people and they, 100% believed that the earth was going to end on 2000. And so they were campaigning like everyone, this is earth is going to end. And there's someone that was like a signs. Like I watch, it was like, this will be interesting. What's going to happen when 2000 comes and they, and it world doesn't end, like how are they going to respond to that? And what they found was that not only did they not like after it came and it went, not only did they, but not believe, not only did they like stop, stop believing the things that they had been believing, but they actually reinforced it. They like doubled down on it.

Michael Walker:
Whereas like they believed it even more strongly. And like the cult leaderly, how did they up with us? How describe that the cult leader came up with a story. They said, your belief in the fact that it was going to end is what stopped the world from ending. It was because you believed so strongly. And so it's just, it is at this point to our bias as humans that like that we do have, we have, self-fulfilling kind of belief. If we really believe something, then we have to take into account that we have a bias where we actually have a desire to keep consistent with that belief, even if opposing evidence is brought up and sometimes that can even make us lean deeper into incorrect belief. So it's an interesting curve. That's good that cut with it.

Jon Anderson:
I think of it like, you believe what you belong to. For those people, being part of that community was such a core part of who they were, and their identity that to give up that belief is to give up that core part of my identity, and this community of people that make me who I am. Yeah, I think that stuff is crazy, man.

Michael Walker:
It's very crazy. Anyone who's listening or watching this right now, just please put your hand over your heart. I promise solemnly to use everything that I just learned for good, and not evil. I won't try to convince anyone to join my cult. Okay. Hey, Jon, this is really good conversation. I find this stuff super fascinating, and hopefully it's really valuable for everyone that's listening right now as a musician, and kind of think about how can I create a community that actually serves people and actually helps hold their hands as they take the step to discover my music, and to connect more.

Michael Walker:
Thank you so much for taking the time to be here and for anyone that's listening or watching right now that would like to learn more about a Two Story Media, what's the best place for them to go to dive deeper?

Jon Anderson:
Yeah, you can go to twostorymedia.com, and then I also have a site for the book called howtopromoteindiemusic.com, no spaces or hyphens or anything. And yeah, those are great places to get connected.

Michael Walker:
Awesome, yeah. So like always we'll put the links, and all the notes in the description. This is great. Do you want to start like a cult or something?

Jon Anderson:
Yeah, man. I was thinking a purple cow cult.

Michael Walker:
There you go! You can Google it Oh man. Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to you check out the show notes, to learn more about our guest today. If you want to support the podcast, then there's a few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe, then I'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends on your social media, tag us, that really helps us out. Third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you, who want to take the music careers to the next level. The time to be a modern musician is now, and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.