Sean Taylor:
That's also a good thing to help identify your sharp edge as an artist. So you want to think about cultural communication, just being self-aware in general and then also just getting marketplace feedback. Those things help hugely.

Michael Walker:
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Michael Walker:
All right. So Sean Taylor is also known as Brand Man. He's a music branding and marketing expert who's written three books on the topic that have sold extensively. His book, Master Music Branding, is considered an expert guide to an artists' image and master music networking online, the fitness guide to music, industry connections contains tips and tricks that help you to create long lasting connections and friendships in the industry. I mean, you've heard it so much to this point that it probably feels a little cliche, but it's cliche because it's true that really so much of the music industry is about who you know, and your ability to create connections and to network. And so I think that this is a topic that super, super valuable, and it's great to be able to talk with someone that is so generous and gracious enough to come on here to share some of his insights, lessons learned. So Sean, thanks so much for taking the time to be here today.

Sean Taylor:
Yeah, for sure, man. I'm glad to be here. Always interested to hear what people are interested in and help however I can. And the relationships thing, it seems so exclusive, right? And I try not to go towards conspiratorial or planning against or classism version of it and just look at it simply if you don't have relationships where people don't know you, if I hear an opportunity about I meet an artist who say they want to build some funnels and monetize their funnels, I'm going to say, "Oh I know Michael and them guys do that." It's just who I know, right? So a lot of it is just truly understanding that there's no other way for people to even have you on top of mind if you aren't out there under the specific brand too, because you can very well do it, but I know you for something else, we might play soccer together or something. So that's how I try to approach it for any of you guys who are struggling with that part of the industry still.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. That's so smart that, yeah, it really starts with awareness, right? If you don't have awareness then you can't take that next step because people don't even know there's an opportunity or even know that you exist, right?

Sean Taylor:
Exactly.

Michael Walker:
Cool. So maybe you could do a quick introduction for anyone here who this is their first time connecting with you or meeting you. Could you share a little bit about yourself and kind of how you became the Brand Man?

Sean Taylor:
The becoming of Brand Man. So I started long ways back, I was doing computer science. So I started off as a programmer, then move more into the startup tech industry, and shifted more towards sales and marketing. During this time I'm helping some friends who always looked at me as an entrepreneurial and they were artists, they were DJs and they also were some interesting personalities. One guy named Grilled Cheese Papi, another guy named Young Juice Guy, and Grilled Cheese Papi actually made grilled cheeses and that was his thing. He was like a figure.

Sean Taylor:
So they needed help in terms of events because their whole idea was let's create events around Atlanta that bringing people out and market us, sell our products, show them our music. The DJs are going to DJ at the party, the artists are going to perform, the juice guy is going to sell his juice and Grilled Cheese Papi is going to selling grilled cheese and throwing them off the stage like a rockstar. So we're creating these events and they were really, really unique events, but they were all spearheaded by each of them individually. So it was almost like taking turns. "What do you want to do? And let's do that. What do you want to do? Let's do that." And when they had kind of all ran their race in terms of their ideas and they kind of looked at me like, "Hey Sean, anything you want to do?" Like, no, I was a behind a scene guy. I never thought about anything.

Sean Taylor:
So when I did think about something, I wanted to create a really cool festival because I'd been to so many events where people say, "Hey, I'm tired of clubs and I want to go to these artsy events." And then the artsy events after you go to them a couple times you realize it's just a club with art on the wall, the interaction was still very stale, right? Not common. Which for me, if you want to truly get people to associate themselves with your brand and look at it positively, then the event itself is not so much, "Let's just come hear me perform," it's, how can I create an environment that they'll remember? Now we know that he's gone through quite a few things lately, but Travis Scott was very good at that for his audience and his particular niche that liked him, right? It's an environment.

Sean Taylor:
So what I did was create a festival that brought all of them together, but it was on a far bigger scale. Every single event felt like a completely different energy, rave room, the basement. You go down and smokey, it was, what do you call it? Not high tier, upper class art gallery feel in another room, white walls, all that stuff, another room that was inside, but it felt like outdoors because we put grass on the floor and trees and plants. And you had artists that matched all the vibes of those things in that room, right? You're the rave type artist, you're in that room and people could switch vibes. And then we opened up this really big surprise glow party at the end.

Sean Taylor:
So that was this really cool concept that took off because the product itself was great, people wanted me to do it again. And it also gave me a vehicle to really use my marketing skills on a level that I hadn't. And through that, bringing in probably 20, 30 artists each time my name started to build, but where more artists wanted me to help them. And I had never been looking for that, I was still not looking at the music industry for money, large reason for you guys existing, just knowing that it's hard to make money in music. And I had had a personal experience where my brother, he's older than me by quite a bit and we don't have the relationship where we just share everything and we always know everything that's going on.

Sean Taylor:
And I had found out by going on his website that he had been Grammy nominated being a part of this project, right? And I was like, what? But then I also knew the life that he was living and it wasn't that life that you would associate with a Grammy when you're coming up younger and just hear, "Oh, Grammy," it wasn't that. So I had that broken for me before I was even thinking about going to the music industry. It kind of kept me away from the music industry. I was like, something's not right over here.

Sean Taylor:
But organically having that experience and the amount of people that started to really ask me things, it forced me to at least help because I loved it so much as far as the actual music aspect. And then eventually I said, let me create a YouTube page so I don't have to answer all these questions one on one. Here, just watch this video. And from that experience, once the YouTube page started, people liked it, some people I really respected gave me some great feedback on it. And then we were off to the races after a year, we were 23,000 subscribers, now it's around 112,000 subscribers kind of peeled off.

Sean Taylor:
But in that YouTube process is where the name Brand Man came on as like, "Hey, I'm telling people advice about branding and everything, maybe I should actually brand myself because it's starting to actually move." It was just Sean Taylor and I didn't really expect much of it at the beginning, but as it grew, I had to become more methodical about how I looked at everything and packaged everything.

Michael Walker:
The skin was shed off the snake and you reemerged as the Brand Man.

Sean Taylor:
There you go, there you go. But that was the process. There's a lot more that's happened since then, but that was the initial process of my getting into the industry.

Michael Walker:
Super cool. Yeah, that's awesome. And it's great that you really had kind of a grassroots approach of experience, of learning how to create a successful brand and putting the event together. And it sounds like really the work, the YouTube channel came together really organically, right? It was born out of the needs of musicians and helping to serve them, which very cool. 112,000 subscribers is really impressive. It's awesome.

Michael Walker:
I feel like part of what you described too is it was such an important realization that you mentioned that you were able to have early on, which was this disconnect between the dream or the image of the Grammy award winning or Grammy nominated artist versus their lifestyle and financially, which is kind of a sobering thought when you think about it, sometimes the most successful artist that you would think they'd be set forever, they end up going bankrupt or they end up having a lifestyle that's really they're suffering, even though you would think, "Man, this person should be so successful."

Michael Walker:
And I know in our community, we just gave out our first seven figure musician award to one of our artists and he's not someone who is a household name that everyone would recognize, but he made seven figures in the past year with his music. And yeah, I think it's nice to kind of break that assumption where it's thinking that the only way to have a viable music career, sustainable music career is to have millions of fans, that if you're able to really offer something valuable and you have a good business understanding and you're good at the branding and kind of what you stand for, then those things can go a long ways, you don't necessarily have to be a name brand musician in order to be successful.

Sean Taylor:
Exactly. That's it.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. So let's dive in a little bit to you're the Brand Man so you've got some really solid experience around creating brands and kind of seeing what are the biggest mistakes or the common challenges that artists are struggling when it comes to creating a successful brand for their music. So what do you say are some of the most common mistakes or the biggest challenges that you see artists struggling with when it comes to honing in their brand?

Sean Taylor:
Biggest challenge is trying to do too much at once, trying to create and communicate your whole self up front, right? Everybody wants to be seen as substantial, multifaceted, not a monolith. However, you have to start somewhere and make a connection and you peel back more over time, right? Because you mess around and do too much, then everything is abstract and there's nothing clear and concise for me to point out and remember. You don't go on a date and tell them all of yourself, right? Your entire story at the beginning. It wouldn't probably wouldn't turn out too well, right? So don't confuse people, find a narrative and stick with that. Let them see you one way.

Sean Taylor:
I know you're afraid of the box, but let them put you in a box because that's just human nature. That's how we remember things, right? Every relationship you have started with a single box, and then you got to know more about them, right? If you have a sister, she's your sister, that's a box, but then you now know more about her because of the relationship that got built over time. So if you have confidence in your ability to have a career and not just some kind of short term strike and win, then know that you'll have that time to show more of yourself, build out more of what you have going on. Even if you might still be doing these things, these other things aside somebody continue to exist on the back end is just, when do I introduce this thing? That's the branding process, right?

Sean Taylor:
I mean, being strategic about what level, and sometimes this domino helps that level happen more succinctly. Sometimes if you get known this way first, it makes it very hard to make all these other things happen, right? So that's more of what you should be focused on. Where do I want to start, right? And if I have multiple things that I'm already thinking about, which one of these things should I start with?

Michael Walker:
That's so that's so smart as an initial starting point of really figuring out, it sounds like what you're saying is what you really want to do is kind of figure out your sharp edge, right? You need to puncture the thick layer of people's attention threshold nowadays, or it's kind of hard to cut through the noise so you have to figure out, what is that sharp point that's going to allow you to kind of cut through initially and then you can kind of expand it. What it reminds me of is when I was starting Modern Musician, with Paradise Fears, we had a YouTube channel that had about 24 million streams and we had toured for about 10 years. And we went from at the beginning living in our van, sleeping in Walmart parking lots to eventually going on tour.

Michael Walker:
And I didn't know what the box was. And I think this is maybe a good question that we could lead into is identifying, how do you identify that sharp edge? For me, initially what ended up happening, it was just through conversations. It was through conversations and connected with a lot of people and sharing the story where I didn't really feel like I was that unique. I think part of the challenge was like, I felt like I didn't have anything that was that special about me or that unique. But when I was telling the story, there's basically one story or there's one bit that people are always like, "Wow, that's really interesting, that's crazy." And it was always when I was telling the story about tour hacking. So when we like walked up to strangers, waiting in lines for shows and met them, that was the story that kind of people's ears perked up. And they're like, "Wow, that's really interesting."

Michael Walker:
And you're saying, that kind of became the box that I was like, "Okay, I guess maybe this is my box for now." And so I created a touring workshop and I kind of leaned into that and that it expanded and it grew to be more all encompassing, but it really did start, like you're saying with that sharp edge. And that was the thing that distinguished it. So for anyone who's maybe struggling, they're a little bit early on and they're wondering what is my sharp edge? Or they feel like I felt where it's like, oh, there's nothing really that unique about me or I'm not that special, how can I really compete with X, Y, Z, what would your advice be for them to kind of get started?

Sean Taylor:
Well, the first thing is what you said, right? You just get marketplace feedback, right? Just see what other people find interesting, let's see what other people naturally gravitate towards. That's one thing. And then also self-awareness, what is your skill set actually? Some people are like, "Oh, I have no genre," but you probably do one genre better than another, right? Especially with the resources you have at this particular time, because genres have multiple facets to it, right? The production has layers. You might be really good at the drums necessary for this genre, but suck at the keys or the melodies, right? So it is no way that you're really, really good and thorough at all of these things on a high level. So if you aren't the type of person who really can tell, then maybe you do need some feedback on that as well, right? You don't just naturally know, "I do this one a lot better."

Sean Taylor:
And then as an artist, as well, even thinking culturally, where do you connect and how do you connect first? A lot of that might come from your actual experience, right? Look at somebody like Taylor swift, she connected through country firsts, right? She's a pop star, right? You look at somebody like Beyonce who was like the R&B girl group first/pop and she took that journey. You look at somebody like Miley Cyrus who didn't have to connect as deeply, she then she did country, but let's use Miley Cyrus, Selena Gomez, they didn't necessarily have to go genre specific as specific first and could go quicker into pop because they had the Disney Channel audience they were already building off of, right? So it's like, where can you connect culturally first? Because you have an understanding about a certain audience and then it helps obviously if you have an audience that already knows you in that area, but where can you connect it culturally first? Because you already understand the language that they speak. That's also a good thing to help identify your sharp edge as an artist.

Sean Taylor:
So you want to think about cultural communication, just being self aware, self-awareness in general and then also just getting marketplace feedback. Those things help hugely.

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Michael Walker:
Hmm, absolutely. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And especially the idea of cultivating self-awareness, that's something that I think in terms of branding or what we're talking about right now is game changing, but also just in terms of being a good human being or personal growth. Self-awareness is such a valuable trait to develop. So maybe we could dig a little bit into that, like it's a little bit of a broad idea like self-awareness. But I'd love to hear any ideas or thoughts or exercises that you found have been really helpful for an artist who's here right now to be able to cultivate more self-awareness both just in general for their life, but then also for their brand.

Sean Taylor:
Well, the first thing isn't extremely artist specific, but I think it's a great starting point in general that builds the muscle and that's understanding that you can be impacted, all right? A lot of times we like to move in this notion that this is my identity, this is who I am, I think everything that I think because of that is who I am, right? But when you start to realize marketing is constantly happening, this is how I became such a good marketer, right? It's like, you can start saying, well, why do I think this? Why am I making this decision? And the more aware that you become of those things, the decisions that you're making, instantly you start to become far more self-aware because you start to think about your own actions and what happens naturally, what happens organically. That's the first place that I think just helps across the board.

Sean Taylor:
Now, from there, just getting more artists specific is also understanding that you have to be able to shed the identity and idea that you're not in a process. And I think sometimes a lot of people can be naturally just more self-aware of where they are in their craft if they don't take it so personally. I understand as an artist, you creating the product and in many ways being the product, it's hard not to take things personally. But if you look at yourself as this is where I am now, but this isn't who I am, it becomes a lot easier to say, "Okay, yes, I'm not good at this," because that's the hardest level I've seen when it comes to self-awareness. It's just really saying this isn't a good song or my skill isn't there yet, that's where most of it comes from from artists of more than anything, once you get over that hump, a lot of the other stuff is easy.

Sean Taylor:
I can help objective exercises to help you find your brand, or I can say instead of, "Who do you sound like?" A lot of artists don't like that idea, "I don't sound like anybody," come on. You can say, "Oh, who would be somebody that you would go on tour with? Or who has an audience that you think would like your music," right? There's ways you can work around that from a branding standpoint, but that's not actually solving the problem. So what I was hoping to kind of do with those two approaches is just make sure you started stealing the muscle of being able to think how you think and why you think and understand that you don't have to have such a knee jerk reaction to a lot of the feedback that might come your way. So you can continue to think and look at yourself objectively, because that's all that comes down to looking at yourself objectively.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. Yeah, I love bringing it back to the snake shedding the skin, but it's so true. I mean, the ability to objectively see things as they are, but also to have the ability to sort of separate your identity from an idea, it sounds like what you're saying is that a really valuable skillset is to develop self-awareness and to create a bit of separation between the idea of who you are. And even your brand, right? The brand sort of reflects who you are, but it's not necessarily who you are. And there actually is a lot of freedom in that because you get to decide who you want to be and you're not necessarily limited by the ideas that they used to think that you are.

Sean Taylor:
Right, because it's like you're really deciding who you want to be to other people, right? The actual self-development has to take place to stop in terms of deciding who you want to be. But even without being that person, you can make yourself that person to other people, right? How long that last due to who you actually are is a whole nother story. But branding is that process, nobody's ever going to understand who you are when you look in the mirror, they're not going to see the same thing that you see, right? And you're not going to see what they see. But what you can do is control what they see as much as possible and that's the branding.

Michael Walker:
Super interesting. Yeah, it seems like a lot of the conversation is around identity, around identity and what is identity, right? And like you said, who we are to ourselves is different than who other people see us as and it's just a fascinating question. It's like, yeah, what is identity overall? But one thing that I feel like is a challenge or something I hear come up a lot, and I think this is just something human that comes up is this feeling of, I don't know, imposter syndrome or this feeling of let's say that someone is becoming intentional about their identity and their brand and they have goals for their music and they're like, "This is the brand that I want to have. This is who I want to be." But inside there's a piece of them that feels like I don't deserve it or I'm not that person yet, like their old identity that they need to shed the skin or it kind of comes up, right? The imposter syndrome.

Michael Walker:
So how would recommend that someone who's kind of on the path towards a brand or an identity that is a goal, but maybe they don't feel like they're quite there yet, they're feeling some imposter syndrome or retention kind of come up fear. How can they process that?

Sean Taylor:
A big part of that is focusing on who you want to become and look at yourself as in process of becoming that versus this is who I am, right? Because the moment you feel yourself communicating this is who you are, you can never hide from that reality in the back of your head that you aren't. That's when you're going to feel that tension. And we've all felt that at some point, right? And you get out of that alignment and it's stressful. I feel like so many things in terms of our personal issues that we have mentally are usually just a gap between where we are and where we want to be, right? Or how we see ourselves or our value system in our detachment from what we feel like our value system is, right? It's like the person who steals something, but then their values is against stealing and now they're in this conflict, right?

Sean Taylor:
So I think if you focus on this is what you're becoming and not telling yourself that you're already there and pretending you're going to be there, because that whole I'm here, I'm here, I'm here, I'm here and fake it until you make it is very difficult of a process, right? And for those of you who might have one of those brands where you have to spend a lot of money just to appear that way, that's also even double down more difficult because it's a lot more superficial. But if you just focus on the process of becoming, and I think it's so necessary, it's one of those weird things that I hate talking about sometimes because of the fluffy nature of it. But I found it time and time again, when they you have to be that person.

Sean Taylor:
This is what I feel like, the fake until you make it became distorted in messaging. I think it started probably from the place that you actually do have to become the type of person to achieve that thing, to achieve that thing truthfully, right? You have to execute those actions consistently to get there. So that's what I would be focused on, right? Like this is where I want to go, these are the actions that it takes to get here and I'm just in that process. And I know it's a little bit more difficult when it's something again so attached to you where you might, from a business standpoint, look at this is a product we want to get to a million dollars or we want to get to $2 million and these are all the actions that have to take place to do it, but it might not take you dressing a certain way, carrying out certain actions or dancing a certain way, having a certain personality. But that's when it is necessary to just be able to step back, look objectively and tell yourself that you're on a journey, you are on a journey.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. I love conversations like this. And I think you're right that sometimes it's easy to kind of be fluffy or whatnot. But at the same time, I feel like this conversation is actually the foundation or this is at the root, the idea of identity and assuming the identity, becoming the person. Jared mentioned focus on the process of becoming, that's super good. And yeah, that's almost like becoming, deserving, seeing yourself as that person. And I think that, yeah, the way you described it is a really helpful guideline to how someone can use the process of "fake it until you make it" but in a way that's more authentic that it's not like you're pretending to be something that you're not, but you acknowledge that I'm in a process of transition and my goal is this and I'm becoming that person and I'm improving, I'm shedding my skin, I'm shedding the snake skin so I can become that person.

Michael Walker:
And just reminds me of a quote from one of my mentors. And this is a quote that he said in passing or he was just wisdom dropping off of the fruit tree. But you said something like, yeah, if you don't pretend to be perfect, then you don't have to be. And there's something about that has really resonated with me. I'm like, oh yeah, if you don't pretend to be perfect, then you don't have to b.e so acknowledging that you're imperfect, you're a flawed human, but you're doing your best, right? And you might make mistakes, but you're willing to learn from the mistakes. That's really all you can really ask of a human being is that they show up like that and they're willing to learn, but they're willing to acknowledge that they're not perfect. And then there's this weight that's lifted, the relief of you don't have to be something that you're not, or hold up an appearance.

Sean Taylor:
I get that personally man. As a super brain conscious person, I leave trails of imperfection intentionally, just because I know what it's like. I did a video very early on in my YouTube channel talking about Miley Cyrus went into this phase that was completely adverse to what people had known her for, right? And you saw that with a lot of artists who grew up as young women at the industry and became pretty popular early on because they're trying to break out of that mold, right? Because once you're in that box, it is pretty tight in that box, right? So the extremity helps create room, it brings back this equilibrium. You see, years later, she's more back in more normal, but she has the flexibility to move around, go in any direction.

Sean Taylor:
It's like being a pastor, right? There's a lot of things that we can do that they might not even be great things and people might not even think that they're great or be mad at us for it but it's nowhere the level of anger that would be associated with a pastor doing it, right? Because of the perfection associated with that position. So you definitely have the ability to create the space and be aware that you're constantly creating the space that you'll be able to move within by how you approach things.

Michael Walker:
Hmm, so good. Awesome. So this is probably a good time, anyone who's here right now, if you have any questions or you'd like to submit something for us to have a conversation around or a question for Sean, then feel free to use the Q&A box at the bottom. See, we had a question come in from Jennifer Draper who said-

Sean Taylor:
Actually, you mind if I say something first?

Michael Walker:
Yeah, go for it.

Sean Taylor:
Because you asked that question specifically about the imposter syndrome. I think a lot of us, when we're going through this process, it's layered, right? So you even get into the idea of, this is what I'm becoming, I'm doing these actions, I'm acting in a certain way so I can achieve this certain goal and you one have the imposter syndrome to deal with but then there's this other idea of I'm so far away from what I want to achieve, but I have been doing these things right.

Sean Taylor:
So it makes the imposter syndrome amplify. It's like, I've been doing this for a year and I'm so far away. And one thing I really love Grant Cardone said this, I know he's a polarizing| figure, for some people, but that one concept he has, talks about the 10x concept. The first time I ever heard him talk about it, because now it's a little bit more diluted, you never really have him talk about the context behind it, but was just this idea that to achieve something, because he had never done it before, he didn't realize how much effort it took.

Sean Taylor:
So really the 10x level of effort was oftentimes just to make sure he hits the goal that he wants in his mind because he never knew what it took to actually reach that goal. Because it's hard to know that, like how many times do we start a journey and it takes us two years to hit that number or do whatever and we thought we were going to do it in three months, right? Or six months because we did some math and said, "If I run ads, this many numbers and you work the funnel, right?" So keep that in mind as well that if you're in a space where you're feeling the imposter syndrome but you feel like you've been doing so many of the right things, it's oftentimes a lot of, yeah, but you're new to it so you don't know what it takes. It's not you and your ceiling and you're just not worthy or deserving. It probably takes more effort than you actually think.

Michael Walker:
That's a really important point. Yeah, so it sounds like what you're saying is that one roadblock or one obstacle that we can run into is maybe call it comparisonitis or you're kind of feeling like you should be further along than you are right now based on the fact that you've been doing something already and you're not quite at the goal yet. I think it's pretty common, especially in our industry to look at the most successful people who have millions or hundreds of millions of streams and just feel like, "Man, I can never reach that," or, "I'm not good enough because I'm not talented enough," having that comparisonitis.

Michael Walker:
So yeah, maybe we could talk a little bit about that idea, just coming to peace. And I guess you could kind of link it back to what you talked about the process, right? The process of becoming and not recognizing that you're on your own journey, you're on your own path and you don't necessarily have to compare yourself to someone who's a hundred steps ahead unless it motivates you or inspires you. Yeah, what are your thoughts around like comparisonitis or just that?

Sean Taylor:
Well, so I'm the type of person, I've always had a personal quote that when somebody's winning right, the losers envy other people winning and winners get inspired by other people winning. I see somebody win big and I'm like, "Yo, that makes me want to win." I don't want what they want necessarily, but I just want to win big at what I do. I could watch a ballerina do something at the maximum level of her craft. And I'm like, "Yo, that was beautiful. I want to go kill it," right? So that's one thing that I feel like people should have mentality wise and it helps, right? So you don't doubt yourself.

Sean Taylor:
But the biggest thing as well is you have to have something in addition to that because if you're a big dreamer you can be in those clouds. If you're just looking at them too long and you don't have any other context, I don't think there is a way not to start to feel bad about yourself. But I think you should look at those people to let you know how far you can go and what's possible, all that stuff, but you have to have some kind of context. So that's where we talk about the clarity of breaking down your goals into smaller micro tasks, also getting mentorship, other people to give you feedback to just say, "Hey man, no, that's not what it takes, right? It takes this much," right? Finding those people who have actually done it, right?

Sean Taylor:
So then if you aren't achieving, those people can tell you, it's like you're doing the right stuff but you aren't achieving. The only thing left is actually your music, right? Because you're doing all the right things marketing wise, you're spending the amount of money and your conversions just aren't looking good on that end, or you're using the wrong platform and or all those things, right? So I guess the comparisonitis in some ways get solved by more comparison, right? Which is just context, more things to compare to. And then of course you do still have to have your internal navigation system if you're spiritual. And yeah, I think that's what it comes down to, right? Getting fuller context so you're not comparing yourself to the artist who has 10 people on their team, but you just see them so you think it's you versus them and it's not you versus them, it's you versus a team. And then you just also understand what actions it really takes by the feedback of mentors, other people who are doing it, plus your own real world experience that you build.

Michael Walker:
That's really good. Yeah, that's really good. And I feel like it's something that isn't always fully appreciated about comparisonitis is that it actually can be a positive thing or it can actually be really useful. I think probably the people who ultimately are the people who've become the most successful in their craft, they probably were just the ones who are willing to have comparisonitis for the longest, were willing to feel the discomfort of seeing to a point that they were finally... I think we do tend to become the five people that we surround ourselves with the most, right? But it probably creates a certain level of discomfort if you're surrounding yourself with someone who's super successful and is just at the top of their game, then there is this discomfort that comes from looking inside and being like, "Well, if they can do it, why am I not doing it?" Right?

Michael Walker:
And that discomfort, I think in a lot of ways, if you're willing to kind of lean into it and stick with it can be something really motivating that, like you're talking about, you just intentionally look at it and say, am I feeling inspired by this? Is this moving me to take like positive action? Or is this something that I feel envious or jealous? And if so, then it might be worth a little bit of inner reflecting and noticing that being like, "Hmm, maybe I can shift that around, why am I seeing that as bad? Oh, it's because I feel like there's not enough. Do I feel like other people being successful is somehow limiting my own ability to be successful?"

Michael Walker:
And if so, whew, that's a heavy weight and it's going to make it way, way more difficult to be successful, because there's going to be kind of that scarcity, contracting, like me, me, me, me, me as opposed to being genuinely happy for other people's success and therefore it's just easier to lean into your own success because you don't have to worry as much about making other people feel bad when you're being successful.

Sean Taylor:
Exactly. I literally just stopped listening to a radio show that I listen to last week or at least, we'll see how long it stops, but maybe I'm definitely going to do it in far, far quiet, smaller doses and be mindful because I started to notice a pattern. One of the women on the show has this really negative perspective on people who have money. And it's not even a show about money, but whenever people have money and, "Ah, I hate rich people," and things like that. And I just didn't want that in my spirit, I just didn't want that in my spirit because I know what that kind of programming does over time. So that I truly believe and live off of what you said.

Michael Walker:
So powerful. This is some great stuff, man. I mean, it makes sense, you're the Brand Man, but let's dig into, we have a decent amount of questions here in the chat. So we can go through the questions in order. And if you guys have any more questions, feel free to put them in the Q&A box and we'll start going in order that they came in.

Michael Walker:
So Jennifer Draper asked, "Have you ever had to deal with an alter ego, always setting an example as one person, but having more depth holding back?" Interesting. So I wonder, I'm not sure if I fully understand the question, but it sounds like Jennifer, maybe you're saying as a musician or as an artist, is it okay to have a brand or an alter ego that's not really you, but it's a different face to it, is that what you're asking, Jennifer? Maybe we can actually circle back to this question. So after Jennifer, you have a chance to explain, we can go to a different question for now and then kind of come back to it.

Michael Walker:
Cynthia asked, "Thanks for acknowledging that there's someone that's aware where we're at in our music career, even if we're still in a box until it's time to come reach our goals." Another example of a question that wasn't really a question. Here we go, I think that this one's a question. Jonathan asked, "I wrote a handful of songs in the late nineties, became self-employed and stored and sold cars. I see the value in used items. I believe the platform's encouraging, motivating people. How would you describe a comeback in one or a few words?"

Michael Walker:
Okay, so let me see if I can dissect this question, Jonathan. So you have a handful of songs you wrote in late nineties and now you want to reuse those songs and launch those now. And you're wondering what's the best way to kind of get back into my music career after having been out of it since the nineties, is that right, Jonathan? How would you describe a comeback in one or a few words? So yeah, I think that's basically the question, right? Is he's wondering, if I'm coming back in the music industry, I had a bunch of songs in the nineties, how would you recommend kind of coming back nowadays? Quite a different world coming back into the music industry compared to in the nineties, but yeah, what are some thoughts around someone who's kind of in that place?

Sean Taylor:
Well, I think it depends on how you want to come back in terms of a renewed artist or more of the same, but finding a new audience. So those two things depend on how you go about things, right? You still have music like the nineties that you want to be that nostalgia for people and find people who are missing that type of music, then you're definitely just finding those people. And it's not much you have to change aesthetic wise, update maybe sonics and things like that, or the production maybe a little bit, but you're just going to find those people.

Sean Taylor:
Now, if you're looking to reintroduce yourself and update your sound, that goes back to how other artists are finding themselves. So now is that updated sound to those extent that it's not even the same age range anymore, right? So I would love to really get more context because I could really answer a lot more directly. But overall it's truly, again, just understanding what product that you have, right? That's like, is it nineties music? Is it newer style music, whatever that looks like? And then finding the audience, it goes back to the same thing, right?

Sean Taylor:
And then when you understand what that audience is, what narrative do you want to package yourself into that audience? Do you want them to remind you of those old folks? My bad for saying it that way, but you know what I mean? Back in the day, whatever, the nostalgia. Or, do you want people to see you as this unique artist today that might have some homage towards older styles or things like that, but they really see you as some type of innovator standing out today? Those are two entirely different brands. Honestly, being the more nostalgic is easier to spark an initial audience and build, it's a lot harder to go the other way, but both are possible.

Michael Walker:
Yep, that makes a lot of sense. And yeah, I think it makes sense that it can be a part of your story, is that you're kind of on your comeback. And I think there's probably quite a few people who are similar in the sense that maybe they had musical ambitions or dreams early on and then they went, and I think you mentioned that you became self-employed, you stored and sold cars and now you're kind of getting back into it. So I think that's kind of an interesting angle just for your story in general, is that you gave up on this, I mean, you don't necessarily have to put it that hard, but maybe sort of you had this dream and then life got in the way and now it's like, this is your time to really shine and to come back to this. And yeah, that could definitely be an interesting angle to go with it.

Michael Walker:
Reiner asked, "How would you handle a senior jazz pianist who has an older CD that still gets airplay around the world, got to release a new album, but I can't perform live anymore?" So a little bit of a similar thing. So it's a senior jazz pianist, successful older CD that gets airplay around the world. I have a new album coming out, I can't perform live anymore. Yeah, how should I go about releasing this new...?

Sean Taylor:
Are you speaking on marketing that new album? I'm going to assume you're speaking on marketing.

Michael Walker:
Kind of sounds like, he's basically asked, how would you handle that situation about to release new album? So yeah, I guess like the branding around releasing the new album.

Sean Taylor:
Yeah. So I would one still get footage of you recording and show people that process, make it look dope. Honestly, if I'm a senior, there's a couple of angles that you can go to, but there's an advantage of being a senior, right? There's those two ages like being young and being old, nobody cares about in between, right? So there's a lot of things that you could take advantage of. You could be a really cool hip singer for whatever that is, you could be a really just like honest, straightforward, brash singer and what's lovable about that, or you can be very humble. All those things like are angles that really mean something.

Sean Taylor:
And so when you decide what personality you want to project, I would actually choose really go hard on one personality direction and then do some brand work around that, whether that's the dress, but fast forward now let's get into recording videos, record some videos because you can't do it live and then distribute that, like YouTube videos, short TikTok videos, that's one angle and make sure those get distributed. Each of those have smaller tactics in terms of being successful in video format so I won't go deeper into that now, but that's another thing. So I record, make sure I do have footage so people can relate to me, see the man behind the message.

Sean Taylor:
And then the last thing is I would find a lot of people to be able to copy my piano playing themselves, right? And recreate that. I don't know if the music also has words to it, if you have singer singing on top of it, but really, if you have a certain riff that is really unique, really make sure that thing gets known, okay? It is instrumental. So I would have other people playing that same thing, right? Just like somebody doing a cover of a song, you do have people doing covers of your music, just playing the instrumental. And maybe you're a pianist, but that doesn't mean you can't get other people to do it with other instruments as well. So those are a couple of things that I would do to make sure you start to get the message and the music out there.

Michael Walker:
Awesome, yeah, that's super helpful. Cool. So another question here from Jennifer Drapers. She asks, "How about asking other potential fans to turn?" It sounds like the question is basically, we talked about how important it was to be able to get perspective or get feedback and how that can be a way to kind of identify the sharp edge and kind of figure out, what is my sharp edge? So maybe the question is, what's the best way to get the feedback that I need from other people in order to identify what my sharp edge is, or what's kind of the angle that I can take with my branding.

Sean Taylor:
So how to get feedback from other people?

Michael Walker:
Yeah, maybe, it doesn't necessarily just have to be from friends or family, but also maybe it could go into mentorship or guidance or basically how can they be objective about themselves when they're just getting started and they're still kind of trying to find their unique edge?

Sean Taylor:
So a couple of hacks to that, right? Don't just ask your friends, ask your friends to ask their friends, right? Try to get as objective as possible and get as far away from your influence as possible. Run some ads, see if people just don't like it, right? And see if people give you positive feedback and see if there's the indifference, indifference can be just as bad, right? Good music suffers far more than trash music because trash music at least gets some feedback, right? So you want it to not just be good, but strike a chord to the point that people engage and react, right? And so those are a couple of things, right? Advertising and asking friends' friends, and hopefully getting feedback that's strong in one way or another.

Sean Taylor:
And the most most important thing you can really pay attention to is if they're just saying it's good then even if they truly believe that, because sometimes that could just be a pass off, they don't want to be honest, but even if they're just saying that, that's not good enough, that's not a strong enough reaction. And did they just say it's good or did they say it's good, can I download that? Go off of true behaviors, not just the feedback. I always used to say in sales, if someone says, "Oh man, you're a really good salesman," but they don't buy from you, you should not take that compliment fully, right? So keep that in mind.

Michael Walker:
That's smart. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, especially when it comes to having something that stands out or something that is most effective or engaging when it comes to marketing, you don't necessarily just want to be good and kind of blend into the background. In some cases it seems like it's a lot better to have something that is edgy to a certain extent or can be edgy where because something is either controversial or something that's polarizing to some degree, there's something about polarization that like creates energy, it pulls, it's like a grab attention, attention pocket.

Michael Walker:
So I guess you don't have to like intentionally be edgy or controversial just because you are starting to stir up the pot, although that certainly is one strategy, but it seems like in a lot of cases you can authentically or organically create that type of polarization by just putting yourself in the right environments or putting yourself in the right situations where those, like you talked about, the cultural movements. Generally, there tends to be cultural movements happening already that we can be a part of, or we can have our own voices when it comes to some of those movements. But you don't necessarily have to artificially create tension. But to your point, it does seem like if you can find, what is it about your music that stands out or that kind of makes people go wow, or kind of creates a reaction, creates engagement, then that could be an angle worth leaning into. And sometimes that polarization can be a good thing.

Sean Taylor:
A hundred percent.

Michael Walker:
Cool. Well, I think let's get ready to wrap up the conversation here. It's been awesome, I appreciate you coming on here and being able to geek out and talk about all the things about shedding the skin and identity and stuff, the foundation. I think that stuff, all of my mentors or the most successful people at the top of their game, that's the stuff that they geek out about that they talk about that they focus on because really that identity and that act of becoming the person is so core. So super awesome. And for anyone who's here right now, so a few questions in the chat from people who said, "Can you recommend any more resources to go deeper on this?' Could you share a little bit about maybe some next steps if anyone wants to dig more into and learn more about what you offer and about the different ways they can be involved with the awesome work that you're doing.

Sean Taylor:
Well, brandmannetwork.com is a great start, right? Right now we have a wait list, but we should be opening it up for open registration real soon. But even if you're on a wait list, you'll probably get it at this point where it is. So if you go to brandmannetwork.com, we have a lot of free resources and community in that space. And I am always talking about different things, beta books and things like that you can read in terms of branding in that particular space as well. Costs basically nothing, I'll type it right for you.

Sean Taylor:
Then also a couple of things that we do offer though, in addition to just the courses and conversations and community there is I have an agency. So if there's somebody who needs an actual campaign and you're looking for a marketing agency to do all the work, because you don't want to do it yourself for time, then we work with indie artists who are just starting up all the way to major labels, major labels hire us and work some pretty major artists. Then on the other end... It looks like I froze, uh-oh.

Michael Walker:
Oh, all good. Just scrolling through the screen share as you talk here, this looks awesome, dude. This website's really cool.

Sean Taylor:
Thanks man. Thanks. It didn't always look that way.

Michael Walker:
It's almost like you know a thing or two about branding or something. It's weird.

Sean Taylor:
I picked up a couple things. And then I would say the last thing is if anybody helps needs help with TikTok, and I know a lot about TikTok, we help a lot of people when it comes to TikTok, but everything basically starts with in our process is understanding who you are, how you want to present yourself and how the marketplace actually feeds you and figuring out how to hit your goals from there.

Michael Walker:
Very cool. Awesome. Well, yeah, I definitely recommend that if you're here right now... Alexa thinks I'm talking to her. That was weird. If you're right now and this has been valuable also let's do like a quick round of applause for Sean. Thanks for coming dude, yeah. A lot of fun. And yeah, I would definitely recommend going to the website and clicking request access and if you're accepted, becoming part of the network. We talked about a little bit, I really think there's so much truth to the idea that you become the five people you surround yourself with. And I know that the mastermind groups that I've invested in that I'm a part of they've completely changed my life and I wouldn't be who I am if it wasn't for joining networks, like the Brand Man network to be able to surround myself with the right people.

Michael Walker:
And honestly, remember when we were talking about the sharp edge and figuring out the tour hacking angle, that happened because I attended a conference that it was essentially like a network, like what he's offering here with the Brand Man network, but for online entrepreneurs. And so yeah, it is a really invaluable tool to really find that sharp edge and kind of take the next step. So. Cool. Awesome, man. Well, thank you again for taking the time to come on here live, it's a lot of fun and I'm sure we'll have a chance to talk again more soon.

Sean Taylor:
Thanks for having me on. You guys ask some awesome questions and hopefully you all are in a network and we help you that way soon as well. Either way it goes, best of luck to you all's and your all career, you all are in good hands here with The Modern Musician.

Michael Walker:
Thanks man.

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value at its episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about their guests today. And if you want to support the podcast, then there's a few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe, that'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends on your social media, tag us, that really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take the music careers to the next level. It's time to be a modern musician now and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.