Gemma Sugrue:
... Patience, I think is the key. If you choose consistency over intensity and you have patience and you do trust and you stay selective and you stay on that path and like you do check in, I think you should, like you say, the recalibration super important and do that at the right frequency. So I would do that a weekly thing, but I think the number one thing is be patient, trust and then keep tracking it at the right frequency.

Michael Walker:
It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can really start music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician and slowly getting better. If you have high quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music. We're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month, without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution with today's music industry, and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

Michael Walker:
All right. So I'm excited to be here today with Gemma Sugrue. So Gemma is the founder of Voiceworks Studio, which offers lessons and courses for singers. And she's the founder of Pro Vocal Artist, an online mentoring company that's serving thousand musicians since the school is founded in 2011. She appeared as a guest vocalist on TV shows like Dancing with the Stars, The Late Night Show. And she's also worked as a background vocalist for artists like Bon Iver, Damien Rice, Gilbert Sullivan, and a lot more. And so in addition to vocal prowess, she's also a certified "tiny habits coach" and a former board member at folkology and practice. So tiny habits that sounds interesting. And I think that for a lot of us, a lot of musicians, one of the most challenging parts is actually creating a solid habit and a framework around doing the things that we know we should be doing, especially as a vocalist.

Michael Walker:
So definitely excited today to geek out and talk a little bit about vocals and honing your habits and actually becoming a better singer, which obviously is really, really important as an artist who has, it's not just instrumentals, but is actually singing songs. The one thing that people really should pay attention to is normally the vocals. So excited to talk more and thanks for taking the time to be here today.

Gemma Sugrue:
I'm so excited to do this is like my favorite thing ever to do. I can't wait.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Well, hey, Gemma, I would love to start off for everyone this year right now, or might be listening to this later. Could you share a little bit about your story and how you get started both as a vocalist and like a vocal coach helping others?

Gemma Sugrue:
Sure. Okay. I'll try and keep it short, it's a long story. But it started with me loving, figuring out that I could sing in school and then being like, oh my God, I'm good at something, thank God. Because I wasn't like very academic. And I felt like, oh it was something that came natural to me. And I didn't mind being in the spotlight and doing the solos. And I was like, oh yeah, brilliant. Sign me up. And so I did that and then I got a singing teacher and she was really into opera. So I was like, I thought she was brilliant, really adore her. So I was like, yes, I will be an opera singer. If you think that's a good idea, then I'm all for it. Let's go. And so like I did a degree, I did a masters and then I got out at the end and I was like, I don't really want to be a soprano.

Gemma Sugrue:
I don't think it's cool. I want to sing like Beyonce. And I had a little bit of an identity crisis. I started coaching singers and all the singers who wanted lessons with me wanted to sing like Adele was really big at that year when I started working. And I was like, I can't demonstrate that. Like I have like been classically trained. I've never even accessed my like speechy sound, my chest sound. I've only song on my... Sound all of my life, since I've been singing. So I had to figure out how to like rewire my whole voice, like reset it up. And so I started getting addicted to going to... I found this podcast about voice science and then I got addicted to going to all these voice science conferences. I was like going to Sweden, I went to San Francisco, I went to the UK and I was just like, oh my God, there is so much to learn.

Gemma Sugrue:
There are like these insane geeks about the anatomy and the acoustic science of the voice. Finally, there's some like decent concrete information on the voice because I always was taught in metaphors. Like, oh, just seeing like your voice is a string coming out of your mouth. And I'm like, what? Okay. I mean, it kind of works, but I don't know why. And I can't teach that. I'm going to have to know what's going on. But anyway, I went to different coaches and I went to different conferences and I figured out how to kind of reorganize my own voice so that it wasn't like all vibrato and very light and heady. And I had to like get a lot more thickness into the sound. And I figured that out and then I got booked for gigs that like, I always dreamed of singing with an orchestra and I ended up getting booked as a pop singer for those kind of gigs.

Gemma Sugrue:
And I was like, oh my God, this is weird. This is what I was striving for all my life but I was so out of alignment with actually who I was and the kind of singer that I was, because I was just following this path that I thought I had to follow. So it came out of that. I was teaching... I loved, I set up a school and I founded, I ran a school for about 10 years and like lots of different schools that was voice works. I actually sold that business last year. Because of course when the pandemic hit, I was like, oh my God, this is a different game. Like I can teach anyone around the world, then if that's the case, who am I? Who do I serve? Like who specifically do I serve. Rather than being a local teacher, I had to figure out my niche and all of that.

Gemma Sugrue:
And then I was like, it doesn't have to just be one on one vocal coaching. That's like, there's so much more to... Like online for me has been the most creative, exciting space I have ever experienced and I've come alive since I've had the restraint of only having it. And so the creativity of creating courses and content and webinars and workshops and breakout rooms and one-on-ones and replays. And I was like, oh my God, give me all of this stuff. All of these tools. So I've just been doing that. So I sold that business. I started focusing on Pro Vocal Artists and figuring out like, what's the outcome I really want to help people with. And what's super like important for me is helping people with their actual voice. And like so many singers are come like I want to riff faster.

Gemma Sugrue:
I want to belt harder. I want to... And I'm like, but what about what you have right now? Because we see all of that. We see these singers being churned through all of these different competitions and it doesn't stick. I'm like what sticks is your authenticity and your uniqueness and that's actually in your limitations. And if we iron out all of the limitations, we actually get rid of you as a person in your voice. So we can't do that. We've got to find them and protect them and capitalize on them and use them and lean in. And so I've become very passionate about that and helping people technically do that. But first of all, really establishing a clear passion or clear like understanding of what their identity is. I go into mindset and all of these other things and getting to the place where they're releasing their music and making something. And that's how I ended up setting up the business Pro Vocal Artist. So that's the end.

Michael Walker:
That's so cool. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. You're awesome. And I love that idea that you shared about really taking what some people might think about themselves as a flaw and actually no, like that's the thing that gives you character. That's like that makes you stand out. That makes you unique. There's just an idea of like turning poison into medicine and that like idea of alchemy. I've always found it so fascinating, how the exact same thing that can feel like such a flaw and just like reframed or used it in a different way can literally turn poison into medicine. Awesome.

Gemma Sugrue:
Absolutely.

Michael Walker:
So I would love to hear, now that you've had, not just the experience in the field, like working with people locally one on one, which is great, because that does give you this kind of this deep perspective. And now you're learning how to like really amplify your message and use the internet, which is a crazy thing. If you look a few hundred years ago and you're like, Hey everyone, we have this worldwide web that connects all of us around the world instantaneously. I can multiply myself. It is just crazy. But I think that there is, you have that kind of that root, like the rooted sense of actually connecting and understanding people from that starting point of connecting with people face to face and coaching them through, like locally working with people. And now, you're able to expand that. So the question is, obviously, you've had a lot of experience with artists at this point and vocalists, a lot of different types of vocalists. What are some of the most common, biggest challenges that you see musicians struggling with when it comes to really honing in and improving their...?

Gemma Sugrue:
I think, I suppose as I've mentioned that word already, but identity. And I also think choosing, being selective and choosing what they're doing and kind of doubling down and going all in. And I think so many of us are too afraid to do that. And we keep lots of options open and we spread ourselves too thin. Like a very transformative book for me was Essentialism by Greg McKeown. And I recognized that I was like, I was a coach. I was a singer. I was a workshop host. I was... And I was like, oh my God, if you could only do one thing? Like what's your calling? And I'm like, I sang at the beginning because it was a thing that people said I was good at. So it made sense to do that, but I actually don't really care about singing the way I care about coaching.

Gemma Sugrue:
And I'm like, what if I just went all in on that? And I'm always trying to help singers to go all in on their artistic identity. Let's stop trying to sing everything, let's stop trying to be everything to everyone and let's be selective, make a choice for better or for worse. So we can always pivot in the future, but you're spinning your tires in the mud here. Can we just decide and go? And I think that's one of the biggest things that I have found them to be challenged with and ended up trying to help.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. So it sounds like the challenge is, and I hear this all the time as well is just like, we're all creative, right? We're musicians. It's like, ah, like I want to do country and death metal and hip hop. I want do everything different. And so what you recommend is really kind of leaning into making a decision and kind of refining and deciding, even if you want to pivot down the line, what do you want to focus on? How do you recommend that someone starts taking some of those steps to identify what their artistic identity is and how they can really start to lean into what it is about themselves that kind of makes them unique?

Gemma Sugrue:
Yeah. I think there's a couple of exercises. I help my singers through is like, one of them is okay, let's look at what the congruencies are across these three kind of personas that you have. So you have like your public persona. This is like who you amplify out on your social media or to people you meet. And then you also have you as a private person, who do you show up as a person in your family, in your close friend group. And then you have you in your music and how is that showing up? And if we looked at lots of characteristics and traits and beliefs through all of those three platforms or roles, where is there conflict? Where's there congruency and where are we willing to create congruencies? And I think that that's been a really enlightening process for a lot of singers. Because say, for example, me personally, I ended up making a jazz album and that made sense to me. But now reflecting on it, what would've made more sense for my personalities actually to make a folk album.

Gemma Sugrue:
I love telling stories. I love folk music. It's the thing that always pulls and my heartstrings. But jazz was safer for me because jazz was like, but I'm an educated, very proficient. I can understand chord changes singer. And I hid behind that instead of being brave enough to show up and let myself be true in folk. So that was interesting for me. So yeah, I think finding the congruencies across who you are privately, publicly and in your music. And then other things that we do in terms of vocal identity, really understanding and embracing your influences and you're a tapestry of everything you've ever listened to. And there's nothing wrong with that. So many singers are afraid, oh, I'm imitating, I'm too influenced by this artist. And I'm like, it's beautiful. Like we all have accents. I have an accent because I grew up on County Kerry and everybody spoke like me there and it's my identity and I don't want to lose it or dilute it.

Gemma Sugrue:
And I don't want to hide it and I'm not going to like create this brand new accent. So you have a singing accent, but my Kerry accent is unlike any other person you're going to hear talking because there are different influences and I have a different tapestry to my accent. So I think understanding the tapestry and understanding all of the connections. Like maybe, you loved Maria Callas, Kate Bush, and Led Zeppelin, like what are the commonalities between those three artists? And like what is the kind of value that you hold with those three artists? So doing some of that like deeper work and going back in time is really fun for me as well.

Michael Walker:
I love that. Yeah. That process, especially of kind of leaning into who have you been inspired by, who have you influenced by? And it sounds like what you're saying is that rather than being afraid of not being original enough, if you actually lean into those different artists you've been inspired by and look at why are you a fan of X, Y, and Z? And you actually look and say, okay, what is it that about them that I really like about this artist, then you can actually intentionally start pulling those in.

Michael Walker:
And I love that too, because I think that's really the starting point, not just for your artist's identity, which is super important to really kind of hone who you are. But also in terms of your marketing, in terms of your promotion like having that list of those artists. Literally, nowadays you can just go into Instagram or Facebook or YouTube and just type in hi, like I want to look for people who are fans of X, Y, and Z, and just typing in those artists. And literally like you put yourself and your music in front of those people and you they're likely to enjoy your music too, because you have that same kind of DNA that those artists had as well.

Gemma Sugrue:
Yeah. So you're part of that category. You're part of that group, but you can be in a new category again, if you like. And that's something that we were talking about being decisive and making a decision. And I think the other thing to go alongside with that is that, but we can all go through seasons as artists and phases. Like we watch Bowie or watch like Prince, go through these different like reinventions of themselves. So I think that's important to have as well. But yeah, the categorization and to be proud to be there, but you have your own type of voice within that accent of music.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. I love that. Cool. So one thing that I'd love to dig into a little bit with you is this idea of it was it called like tiny habits that you're talking about and actually it's kind of the mindset around... It seems like for a lot of us, the biggest problem isn't necessarily that we don't know what we should be doing. In terms of things like, I know I should be getting good sleep and I should be exercising for 30 minutes a day and I should be eating healthy. And I should do it like X, Y, Z. But sometimes like knowing those things doesn't necessarily mean that like we actually do the thing. And I think a lot of it comes down to our habits and the things that we do naturally. So I'd love to hear your take on what exactly are these tiny habits that you're talking about and how do those apply to artists specifically when it comes to their music and to their vocals?

Gemma Sugrue:
Yeah. So I probably read all of the habit books and I got to Tiny Habits and that one really stood out to me as one that was very applicable to life. That was like actionable. Atomic Habits is brilliant as well. There's amazing takeaways, that one's a hugely popular book. But Tiny Habits it's written by BJ Fogg. He's a Stanford professor. He's actually, he taught the founder of Instagram. It was actually, Instagram was born in his class from like a brainstorming exercise. Yeah, that's really cool. And just kind of... But what I think that... Yeah, there's that like addictive technology behavior that is kind of associated with habit formation as well. But you know, all things can be used for good and evil. So using it for good is like, yeah, how am I going to create these patterns in my life? Because we're all on a pattern every day.

Gemma Sugrue:
And we are all unconsciously going around. Like if you actually had a camera on yourself every night, when you brush your teeth. You'd actually should brush at the same pace, the same rhythm, the same order of teeth. And you'd put the same amount of toothpaste on the brush. You would like press the button in the same way with the same part of your thumb. Like we fall... We want things to be easy. And so then that's actually one of the most important learnings for me from that model is that. So the first thing is to have abandon motivation or relying on motivation. And motivation's a fickle friend, it's an emotional thing and it's not always going to be there. We can't count on it to build. So we've got to find other ways to build these habits. And so the other options are to address our prompts.

Gemma Sugrue:
So these are things that are triggering us to do something and then address how easy something is to do. And how we can make something easier by like scaling it back and making it quite tiny, which is really the main premise of the book. Or we can make it easy by just like reducing how hard it is. Like taking away layers or even just a starter step. Like somebody who wants to get into a running habit, you are only allowed put your running shoes on in the morning, open the door, go outside and then go back in again. And you have to do that for a week. Even if you feel like running, I only want you to be working on the habit of running, not running itself. And then when we have the habit, you're allowed run. And so, because we will ride the wave of motivation. We're like, okay, I'm doing, it. Shoes on, out the door.

Gemma Sugrue:
Let's go, let's get the run. And it's like, yeah, we got the run in that day, but we didn't actually work on the habit formation itself. And so that was a really cool kind of breakthrough I had with it as well. But the reason I ended up turning to it was because I was coaching singers and I was like, I dived so deep into the science. Like I understood acoustic science. I was like I know physics, I can really help singers, but I wasn't helping them. They were still coming back to me and circling back to the same thing we did in lessons. And I'm like, ah, what's going on? And it's because I wasn't helping them implement routines during the week. I was like, I have to figure that out. So I just got obsessed with it myself and then ended up helping them create these routines themselves in their own life.

Michael Walker:
All right. Let's take a quick break from the podcast. So I can tell you about a free, special offer they're doing right now, exclusively for our podcast listeners. So if you got to tell of value from the show, but you want to take your music career to the next level, connect with the community of driven musicians and connect with the music mentors directly that we have on this podcast. Or if you just want to know the best way to market your music and grow an audience right now, then this is going to be perfect for you.

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On top of all that, you'll get access to our private music mentor community. And this is definitely one of my favorite parts of music mentor and maybe the most valuable is that you're going to have this community where you can network with other artists and link up and collaborate, ask questions, get support, and discuss everything related to your music career. So if you're curious and you want to take advantage of the free trial, then go click on the link and the show notes right now, sign up for free. From there, you can check out all of the amazing content, connect with the community and sign up for the live masterclasses that happen every week. This is a gift for listening to our podcast and supporting the show. So don't miss it out. Go sign up for free now and let's get back to our interview.

Michael Walker:
So cool. I totally geek out about this kind of stuff. I have like a habit tracker spreadsheet where it like goes through like a morning routine habits and stuff. And I think that you're totally on point in terms of just like, and it sounds like, yeah, Tiny Habits and Atomic Habit, like there's like a lot of different kind of frameworks to talk about why habits exist and how we like create habits and what you had mentioned about really like our brains just want to reserve as much energy as possible, right? It's like the reason we have habits is so we don't have to think about doing things, which is actually great. If we had to think about every single thing that we're going to do every single day, then we wouldn't have enough energy to do almost anything.

Gemma Sugrue:
Totally.

Michael Walker:
But if you can like set up those habits that just run themselves, then it really doesn't take a whole lot of energy or effort to like keep doing... You're going to do something either way, you might as well just do the thing that like is the thing that champions do, right?

Gemma Sugrue:
Yeah. Totally make it like easy for yourself to end up practicing. It's like, oh geez. How did I end up practicing? You know, you almost want that to happen. And so you just remove all of these friction points. Like almost make yourself feel like you're stumbling into making music every day that it's become this... You're like a zombie going into write music every day, but in like the most beautiful way.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. That reminds me of one of my mentors, the way he described this, this always stuck with me and I think it applies directly with... It sounds like one of the biggest points that you're making is just that things up so you don't have to rely on like intrinsic motivation. But it's just the thing that you want to have happen just happens automatically on its own. It's like the easiest path of least resistance is just to do the thing. And the way that my mentor talked about this was he called it inevitability thinking and inevitability thinking was basically setting up the circumstances around you. So like the thing that you want have happen, like just happens by default where even if you just let go completely, you did nothing. It's like the thing that needs to happen is the thing that should happen.

Michael Walker:
One example of it is having a friend that you send a thousand dollars check and you say, Hey, if I don't text you at 6:00 AM every morning and show you a picture of me going for a run, then cast the check instantly like one like random example. But doing that, there's more pain associated with like losing the thousand dollars than just doing the thing. And then eventually, creating the habit just becomes automatic. So I think that idea of just setting up your circumstances environment, so it just happens automatically is super smart. And it sounds like the other, like the main point of that Tiny Habits' framework is around making it as easy as possible to get started, to create that initial momentum. So you just like break off enough of the task. It's just a little tiny bit. And then that tends to just carry you forward through it.

Gemma Sugrue:
Yeah. And be very mindful of the getting in and getting out. Like another thing I should talk about as well is celebration. But before that, yeah, like the edge of the habit, because it's the little bit of friction that will trip you up. It's the little thing. Your brain is just wanting to resist you. And if the shoes aren't by the door before you go out, or if you don't have a setup studio where you can just easily switch on the piano or you don't have to like pull out an extension lead. Like just that one thing of having to find the extension lead could be the thing that derails the habit or derails the setup of the habit at the beginning. So the being on the minute detail of the set up of the habit. But also creating what you're saying, this pain and pleasure.

Gemma Sugrue:
That's so interesting. And like, sometimes I'm trying to recognize or break a bad habit. I'm like, oh geez. How can I make eating chocolate in the evening painful? Like, why is it painful? Gemma, think about it. And I'm like, oh, I kind of feel like I have a little bit of heartburn in the morning if I eat too much sweet stuff. And I'm like, oh, like that's pain. Think about how bad that heartburn is in the morning. You hate it. I'm like, yes, I hate it. I hate it. I won't do it anymore. But another thing that you can do with positivity and that I started doing for was like being my own inner cheerleader with all of it. And reminding myself, I love this, I'm doing this. I'm proud of myself. Let's go. And like, that really, really helps.

Gemma Sugrue:
And so he's big hack for habit formation is celebration. And he said, that's why creating a habit on a social media app is easy peasy. Like you're straight away, you've got a good solid habit there because it's so pleasurable. The dopamine spike is happening. So you've got to create your own inner dopamine spike by reminding yourself like, this is why I'm doing this. I love doing this. I'm proud of myself. And doing all of that kind of inner talk and even like physically celebrating, like you're doing your switch camera there and you're doing, yeah. You want to...

Michael Walker:
Yeah.

Gemma Sugrue:
It's exactly what you should do. That's like the perfect celebration.

Michael Walker:
That's awesome. It's so true around like celebration, like in honoring things, paying special attention. I mean also just in terms of almost every transformation, like a major transformation that exists in kind of like our life cycle, we try to create celebrations or events that sort of like celebrate this thing happen. Like graduation, right? It's like you've graduated and there's a big event. Getting married, there's this big celebration, there's this big event and it represents this transformation. So if we're trying to like transform and to become a new person, then it's almost like being able to create that event or create that something that you can celebrate. It's so powerful and it's not just you know, but if you can bring in the people in your network that are closest to you to kind of celebrate that, then I think there really is something psychologically that is some sort of effect that happens around that celebration internally and in your circumstances.

Gemma Sugrue:
Totally. And I think as a second one to add onto that was, I remember I was doing yoga and I was, my teacher at the end of the class said very like, very sincerely to me, she's like, your practice is really coming along. And I was like, oh my God, thank you so much. And I left the room and I was like, oh, I actually felt like I was floating home. I was so delighted with that feedback. And I was like, I could be giving self that feedback every day and you can see in the words that you want to use, that you respond well to, you can praise yourself. And that's something that felt kind of cheesy at the beginning, but it just, it really works.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Yeah. So it sounds like one thing that they would really recommend for everyone is to you kind of be an inner cheerleader. And so celebrate your successes, celebrate your wins. Like maybe keep track. You have like a, I've heard this idea before, having like a success log as you're going throughout your day. You just write down all this stuff. I know personally, like one of the most powerful habits that's made a big impact on like my personal life. And also my relationship with my wife is each night we each share like our top three wins or gratitudes from the day and then like three future wins, future gratitudes that haven't happened. But like as if, like try to share them as if like they've already happened. And that practice of like celebrating those wins, even the ones that are like in the future, that haven't happened yet. Just that there's like a magnetic like force that is like when you can have gratitude or celebrate... When you celebrate something, it creates this like that energy around it.

Gemma Sugrue:
Yeah. Oh, it makes it more vivid. I'm into this... There's a book called Reality Transurfing. It's the quantum physics of manifestation and it's so cool the way they describe it and explain it. And a mirror is always the kind of analogy for reality. And you have like this desired reality you want, but you can imagine the mirror is kind of foggy or cloudy and you can't... And so the more you say things like be grateful and recognize, find evidence for the new desired reality, constantly finding that evidence, like creating that list of evidence. Clearer and clearer the reality becomes the mirror becomes. And the mirror, like reality is just a reflection of inner, but then that becomes your world, that becomes your life because you've stacked up the evidence to make sure that you feel and fit that desired.

Michael Walker:
I love this stuff. It's so good. I mean, I think it's so true that like there's so much of our lives is sort of like a self-fulfilling prophecy and I mean, everything that exists around us... I mean, even like right now, if I look around the studio, like basically everything that's in my room is something that was created like through someone. It wasn't just like instantly it was here. Like everything around here right now started out as like some sort of idea or thought, and then someone went through a process of like Hey, this is an... I want to actually turn this idea into like an actual thing. And now there's a guitar here. And so interest too, the way that capitalism works and like a lot of our thoughts and things are around providing value because we have this like economy in this whole system.

Michael Walker:
That's so super interesting. But the point is that it really it's true. And sometimes, I think it's possible to kind of take things to an extreme and some people might think it's kind of like woohoo to think like, oh, I can just like imagine... Everything magically is just going to happen instantly. But yeah, I think that there is sort of this scientific approach of like, no, like actually everything like that is created, starts with a thought and you have to believe in it enough to actually take action to do the thing. Including your goals with like your life and your dreams. And a lot of times the bigger goal that you have, the more resistance, the more obstacle and the more difficult it's going to be to reach that goal. So it really requires like what you're talking about, intentionally creating celebrations and really reinforcing that identity that maybe you're not that person yet, but you're becoming that person and you're doing the things right now that lead to you being that person.

Gemma Sugrue:
Totally. And it allows you to stay on that path because I think the biggest obstacle is that we keep switching lanes because we're unsure. We're like, I don't know if this is the right thing to do to focus all of my attention on. And so we hop lanes all of the time. And I think that's definitely something that I was doing. And with all reality, every single reality exists, which I like to kind of subscribe to that idea. It's just that we don't know what the terrain is going to be like, and we don't know what time delay is going to be there. But if I go, okay, I'm in. I'm doing this. This is what aligned with and I'm okay with whatever the time delay is going to be in getting there, but I'm going to stay on this path, whatever it takes.

Michael Walker:
I love that mindset. Yeah. Just thinking about it, like there's going to be a time delay between that, but if you're willing to like to stick through and do it. I wasn't expecting that we were going to like go down the rabbit hole like this, during this, I love this stuff and I'm happy that we're going here. But I really think that one thing that is one of the most fascinating things that I geek out about is thinking about this idea of how vision, how thought becomes reality and like goals and achievement. And it does seem like as time has gone on like, really the purpose of technology is sort of... And technology, not just meaning like internet or tools, although certainly those are technology. But really like just tools in general and things like hammers or cars, like these are all like technology that kind of took us from idea closer to reality. Like building a house, like the tool, the technology of a hammer is like, you're going to shorten the time delay. The time delay going from idea to like creation.

Michael Walker:
And as time goes on, it seems like our ability to use technology and these tools is like shrinking the time delay. So nowadays to create a billion dollar business, it could happen in a matter of a few years based on the technology, based on the tools that we have. And like the biggest idea that I can think of that this is the thing that like I geek out about the most is this idea of one, right now Elon Musk is working on Neurolink and there's this idea of like brain interfaces. Actually being able to like, the same way that we talk to, like Amazon Alexa or Google home, be like, Hey, like turn the lights off. With this type of interface, we could just think like lights on lights off and just instantly, like the thing happens. But then using that technology, we could like communicate with each other, instead of through words and language, maybe we could communicate more directly, almost telepathically.

Michael Walker:
But then you could combine that type of technology with this idea of like virtual reality where it could potentially be in like an environment or there were literally no physics, no physical limitations on like anything you could do. It's just like a pure playground of creativity. Then combined with like the neural interface, we could essentially have an experience or just like no limitation at all. Just like pure creativity. And that's like, in terms of that time delay that you're talking about, like what if there's like no time delay and it just instantly, you could just create like anything you want and that's the idea. It just, makes my mind go... Like what would even happen at that point? Right? Like what-

Gemma Sugrue:
I know. That's like the dream of when you're creating a business or an idea, that's your dream. Like you want to work reverse engineer that. It's like, what if somebody like literally gave me their credit card details and they went, boom, you're instantly transformed. And you like work your way back from that in the value offer that you create. And because that's what people want. They want just this magic. Like that's why people go and get surgery, plastic surgery. It's a quicker fix than going on a diet and going to the gym. So like, I think that's so interesting. I can't even imagine a world with such little friction like that.

Michael Walker:
The way that I look at it is I feel like that experience that we just described of having no limitations would almost be sort of like a godlike experience where it's just like, there was no limitation, you could create anything. And also, I wonder if, kind of like having the cheat codes to a video game. When you get the cheat codes, then there's kind of this sense... At first it's like, whoa, like cool. I can do anything. Then it's like, okay, well now what? Or like this is kind of boring, kind of like lost its purpose or its traction. And so the fact that we just so happened to be here right now in this moment of time where we could potentially even experience this shift before like kind of limitation, like apparent limitation versus no time delay. Where it's just like this experience of like ultimate connectedness and enlightenment.

Michael Walker:
Makes me wonder like... I don't know if I believe in this or not, but the theory that this is some sort of simulation that we're in right now already seems kind of interest that if there was like a purpose for why right now... I think that if we were already some sort of fully limitless, like being that could just do and say like anything, or just create anything instantly with no limitations, maybe you would get kind of boring and maybe you'd want to forget that you were all powerful and then like, kind of like find your way back home and then realize like, wow, like this is amazing. Maybe... I don't know.

Gemma Sugrue:
Some feeling of struggle. I mean, we're meant to suffer. We're meant to struggle. And like not having the contrast of that feels weird. Like my happiest time in the day is when I return home from the gym. I'm like yeah, I did my gym. That was good. It's like my most fulfilled. So I think we definitely need that bit of a burn, that bit of uncertainty to actually feel, to get that happiness. Don't we?

Michael Walker:
Yeah. Isn't that interesting that like, I mean, a lot of times... Like you were talking about in terms of the flaw in the voice, like how that can, a lot of times people kind of like lean away from that or they're like, this is bad. But sometimes by leaning into that, that's actually the thing that gives character and the same thing probably applies like the challenge and the struggle and the suffering is the thing that's like so easy to kind of like lead away, like, ah. But really like leaning into like, that's the thing that gives character and that like that creates fulfillment. And yeah, it's not like if you go to watch a movie and you walk into the theater and you sit down, it's like, this is Jane. Jane was happy forever.

Gemma Sugrue:
Story.

Michael Walker:
It wouldn't be a very good story at all, right? Super interesting. So let's kind of come back to earth a little bit. I love this stuff, but let's bring it back to kind of application and practically like how we can take everything we're talking about and turn it into... If you could paint kind of the outcome transformation that you think was sort of like when we were talking about that final outcome. What does that look like for an artist when it comes to their voice and being able to like fully express them?

Gemma Sugrue:
So I suppose it's coming up with like the process. It is designing. I like doing, again, back to identity. I like doing an identity 1.0 and identity 2.0. I'd like them to really recognize who they are right now, what they believe in their traits. Let's like, put it all down on paper, black and white in front of us. And now let's draw up. Let's do the designs for 2.0 and what's identity 2.0. And then we kind of understand... We get really, really clear on the reality that we're shooting for, the desired outcome like you're saying. Let's get super clear on that. Let's understand what that is. And then let's understand why. Why is the emotion? Like, why do you want this? And once we get that, then we look to identity and we're like, who do you need to become to get there?

Gemma Sugrue:
And so that's when you start looking at that shakes out into the habits and the behaviors every day. But sometimes new habits can feel unnatural and there can be that resistance as well. So that's kind of coming back to the emotional piece and I do buy into the teachings of like Steven Pressfield, The War of Art. He's got a chapter called turning pro and just like showing up every day. And there is going to be a... I think that everybody has to go through is if your identity shifting. There could be this feeling that it's unnatural. That's where like actually really helps to have that clarity about what and why, and have that clarity on this new identity you're shifting into, because it will start to become natural once you have all of those pieces together. So that's kind of like the mindset side of things, but that shakes out into like daily vocal practices.

Gemma Sugrue:
I have like, I think everybody should be looking at their identity sheet every day. So that's their mindset. Maybe they need to do some meditation. Different people need different things. Some people need more of a like lean into their more masculine side. Some people need to lean into more of their feminine side. It depends on what they need, mindful work. Then we have like their voice. So we've got it. That's your skill, that's your like delivery of communication. We've got to take care of that because the last thing I want you to do is to even remember that I am a person in your life when you're on stage. I want you to forget you've ever met me because vocal coaching and technique that doesn't belong stage. All that belongs there is the surrenders at the moment. And the only way you can actually be give yourself permission to surrendering in a performance is to be so consistent and be able to really count on your voice to do its job.

Gemma Sugrue:
And you can't do that without conditioning. And it's like, the marathon is coming up. And if you're not conditioning day to day basis to create like your, this is my... Basically, raising your baseline all of the time. That's my focus. I'm never like trying to get work on your a hundred percent. I'm always trying to work on your, what are you like on your worst day and how can I raise that all of the time. So that you can show up on your worst day, you can have no sleep the night before. Everything is gone to tits up, but I have made sure that your baseline is solid. So you are okay to drop to that. So that would be the conditioning part, your instrument then you're creative.

Gemma Sugrue:
Is that like consistent? Have you got a way of getting in there? Like, is there a specific time, do you know exactly like your energy flows throughout the day, have you synced up your circadian rhythm? Do you know the best kind of hour of the day, the best light that comes into your retinas? That's like totally aligned with your creativity. Like, let's figure it out. And then yeah, getting into a habit of connecting with social media and being in front of an audience, that's the other practice. So they're like the practices that will come out of the identity shifting and the reality setting.

Michael Walker:
Cool. That's sweet. Thank you for walking through that. I feel like we covered a lot of ground, like in that overview. And it's interesting too, in terms of the program that we offer with Modern Musician Gold Artist Academy, some of the frameworks are very similar because I think that transformation, there's a fundamental process to go through it. So that idea at the beginning of really establishing kind of where are they at right now, and where's the goal? Super interesting. It's almost like a... One analogy that I think about sometimes is its kind of like a GPS, right? To get you from one destination to another, like what does a GPS need? Well, first of all, it needs to know where you are to start out with it, needs to triangulate where's your starting point.

Michael Walker:
If it doesn't know that, then it's not going to be able to give you directions to get to the place. Right? So first needs to know where you are like starting from, and then you need to know specifically, what's the outcome or what's the goal? Like where are you trying to get to, if you try to go to GPS and you don't have like a destination, then you're not going to be able to go anywhere. But then once you have those two things, then it's kind of, okay, you know with point A, what's point B. Like, how do we actually create a path to get there? So it sounds like that's really the same process that you use and in your framework is kind of identifying where are they starting from? Where's the outcome? And then building this custom path to help them go from point A to point B, which is super cool.

Gemma Sugrue:
Yes. And really identifying those because the behaviors then I would imagine in your analogy are like the coordinates. The coordinates are, if you set, like whatever you... That comes up in the Atomic Habits book, what you're doing on a repeated basis every single day, if those dots are going kind of the wrong way, you're going to end up in a different destination. So you really want to make sure your dots are going in the right way. So that making sure that you are very intentional about the setup of those habits, because the consistency is going to bring you the distance, if you kind of pay attention to it.

Michael Walker:
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. That's a great point. Is that like part of the journey at that point is about calibration, right? Like you need to have some sort of process to like on a regular basis, check in with like, are you moving in the right direction? And what are you doing that? And is it like, is it working and kind of recalibrating, where are you now? So that if you are off path of as like re navigating and like it brings you back to the correct path, right. Super interesting. So what would you say are some of the... Let's imagine like, that we're really like leading to this analogy. I think it's a really solid analogy for this. But let's say that someone has set their initial starting point that set their destination. They're starting to go down the path. What are some of the most common obstacles kind of on that path that you see them starting to like fall off track?

Michael Walker:
Like, what are the biggest mistakes or like the thing that most people get hung up on that's coming up, that's kind of keep them from going from point A to point B?

Gemma Sugrue:
Patience, I think is the key. I think that you can get really fooled into thinking that... I don't know. People are more comfortable, usually choosing intensity over consistency because that requires a lot of faith and a lot of trust because you are doing these small actions, but you're like, God, is this going to make a dent? Is this going anywhere? Is this doing anything? And so you have to trust in that and be patient. But if you choose consistency over intensity and you have patience and you do trust and you stay selective and you stay on that path and like you do check in, I think you should, like you say, the recalibration super important and do that at the right frequency. So I would do that a weekly thing. So I usually get my singers to plan tomorrow today, and then do a weekly review and preview.

Gemma Sugrue:
And that way you're able to get an overview of like, what's going right, what's going wrong so that we can kind of keep bringing ourselves back onto that right path. But I think the number one thing is be patient, trust and then keep tracking it at the right frequency.

Michael Walker:
So good. Yeah. It certainly helps to... Whatever your goal is, whatever your destination is, if you can look and find like, of course some other people who've gone on that path, who've been able to go from point A to point B and you can seek out mentorship like that, which makes frameworks and people like you so, so important, so valuable. I think everyone needs a mentor that can... At least like if you have a mentor, it's going to significantly shorten your learning curve of like figuring out how to get to point A, point B. Technically, you could probably do it on your own, but it's just going to save you so much time and energy. And to really like have that GPS that kind of keeps you on track. And it certainly is possible to like to fall off track because we have a goal, but we have no real path to get there.

Gemma Sugrue:
Yes. And we're scared. We don't know, am I doing the right thing? And sometimes all somebody needs from me is just like, yeah, you're doing good. No, this is going on the right direction. I like it. It's good. Or I get them to do audio check-ins so that they would have like an audio recording of their voice and how their voice is developing. And I'm like, it's very hard to see or hear the development day to day. But if we zoom out and listen to the beginning of this month and the end of that month and hear the difference in your voice then. And if we're very specific about the things that we're trying to make a change in our voice, because a lot of people are just like blanket going for different scales. And like, I just want to have range and riffs and built. And I'm like, okay. But like no, let's get specific here. What do we want? What kind of vowel do we want to tune? What kind of note? What part, what exact note do we want to develop?

Gemma Sugrue:
So the specificity, I think, is another thing to put into the mix. But me is coach, I always just feel like I'm reassuring and just being the passenger, I'm the passenger in the car.

Michael Walker:
That's so good.

Gemma Sugrue:
That's the right way. Yeah, keep going.

Michael Walker:
I found like the exact same thing too. It seems like that's such an important part is like, not everyone has that kind of inner cheerleader. In fact, a lot of times exactly the opposite. Where it's like either people around us consciously or subconsciously, they've gotten kind of comfortable with who you are. So if you start becoming someone else, then it actually kind of feels uncomfortable and it brings up insecurity and there's a lot of fear that they're dealing with. And so if you don't really have that person in your corner, whether it's internally or that person, that's just like, Hey, like you're on the right path. You've got this, then it can be hard. I love, I mean, what you just shared too, really brought up some like great ideas about how, even like within our program.

Michael Walker:
I think that there's a few things that we could do to be more intentional about celebrating and kind of acknowledging and honoring people as they go through the journey. Like there's these milestones. And so I think Ari and Jared on our team right now, like you're watching this to like take notes here and like add this into the program. But I think like specifically around these key milestones or key points where, for example, when someone first launches their, we call it like their virtual tour hacking campaign, which is basically like the campaign that they launch. And then they start having conversations over Instagram, Facebook Messenger with new fans. And that's kind of a special moment for a lot of people is like when they launch it. And there's people that aren't just their friends and family, but there's like actually real like fans who enjoy the music.

Michael Walker:
And I think that if we created a really special kind of, almost like an event kind of celebration, kind of like a wedding or graduation, or there's like an event or there's some sort of certificate or there's some like people where give them a shout out in the group or like, Hey everyone, like this just launch their campaign and we shared the link. Think it'd be so cool just to like honor them and celebrate their success. And also to like bring in people to be able to comment on their posts and stuff. So thank you, that's why I love have a conference like this too. Because I'm meeting with cool people and we get great ideas. We big idea childs together.

Gemma Sugrue:
Yeah. I love your idea of it being like, the analogy of it being like a wedding or a graduation and like what might feel like a small, look like a small step from the outside, but actually is a quantum leap. Like is this big, is this total catalyst of change that definitely needs to be like sign posted and celebrated.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. It's really interesting in terms of like tribes and societies in general, how like a lot of times there are these, like these events that are weddings and graduations, but also I've heard this in the content of kind of like boyhood becoming a man, like a lot of tribes. Like they actually have a ceremony or something where it's like the boy, like the boy dies and like the man is like come... And that's really like an important sort of ceremony. The point is ceremony or rituals, rituals, or ceremonies that they facilitate this transformation. Yeah. Cool stuff. Okay. So this has been a lot of fun. I love conversations like this, so let's actually, because it's the first time that we've ever done this. We'll kind of be learning as we go, but let's actually open up the floor for some questions and for some like some audience interaction.

Michael Walker:
So we're actually doing this live right now with a real audience of our Music Mentor VIPs. And so let's bring some people in here to ask questions. If you'd like to raise your hand, come on here live to ask any questions. You can raise your hand. And otherwise, I think that there's some people who you've been asking some questions in the chat, and I have a document here that Ari put together. So question number one is from Amy Alexander and Amy asked question, I love the comparison about at this being a marathon, I just experienced the need for this recording vocals over the weekend. As for having so many tools, resources, and options. I'm wondering, is there a question or series of questions you use for yourself or recommend to filter what's best for you or aligns with your vision? Interesting.

Michael Walker:
So it sounds like the question is really like, sometimes it's so easy to feel overwhelmed. There's so many options, so many choices, like is there sort of like a compass that you use internally to decide when there's all these different paths that I could take? What's like the actual right decision for me.

Gemma Sugrue:
Yeah. I think like one analogy that's helpful is like what's the biggest domino to knock over that will knock over the others. What thing will kind of make the biggest impact? So what's the... And I would always like start my day with the thing that's going to propel me forward the most. And that can be the thing that's kind of hard for me to dig into. It could be writing content and I might prefer to do some busy work like emails, but I'm like, no, do the thing that's the big domino and just get that done because then whatever happens in the day, I'm really delighted I've done my MIT, my most important thing. But I would definitely come up with my big three every day. I need to know exactly. And one of them has to be health related. One of them has to be... The other two are career, but one always has to be like a content, like a creation or writing goal.

Gemma Sugrue:
So yeah, knowing what your... I have a weekly three and I have a daily three. But knowing what your big domino is, that's going to knock over the other dominoes is the way that I think about it.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. Yeah. I think that's a really great question. Like a great like focus point because everyone does... Especially with where we're talking about internet and with information. There's just like an explosion. There's so much stuff that we can't possibly, we don't have to bandwidth to be able to absorb everything. So like in that context, the book Essentialism, I think is probably a great signpost. And just the idea that you point to around like prioritization and being like, okay, like I don't have enough time to do all of this stuff. If I had to of like force myself to like, what are the top three things that I want to accomplish here over the next day or over the next week or month or quarter or year? That's we have like a very similar process where we do the exact same thing onlike a daily... We call them like the RPS cycles, which is like the... We call it RPS, kind of like GPS, but it's like for RPS, like a retrospective planning scheduling, right.

Michael Walker:
Where we have like daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, annually. And so like once a year, kind of having that process in place to do like a yearly review and like, look at this next year. What are like the top three things for my entire year? If I just had three things I want to do over this next year. And that domino analogy, like you kind of stacking the dominoes that they like can tip over. And even like a little tiny domino. I don't know if you've ever seen the video. I loved it. You probably really enjoyed this too if you haven't seen it. Is there's this like, kind of like geeky looking physics' professor guy, I think. And he's like sitting next to a bunch of dominoes and they're like a really tiny one and there's like a massive one at the end.

Michael Walker:
And this guy's like based on physics, this little tiny domino, you push this over and it's going to knock over this giant one. And he literally has this little tiny, like tweezers that he has to like knock over the little tiny initial domino. But there's like 10 dominoes set up that are all like twice as big as the previous one. And so in the end, like this little microscopic tiny domino, you push it over and it knocks over the bigger one, which knocks over the bigger one, which knocks over... And it like ends up this massive domino falls over because all you did was push that little tiny one. And so that top three process you're talking about, like daily, I think that's probably one of the best little tiny dominoes you can do because you align that with your bigger dominoes and those things add up. And as long as they're stacked towards the right dominoes, then you can accomplish amazing things.

Gemma Sugrue:
Yeah. It's another idea that comes from the Tiny Habits book is cascading. So good cascades from good. So you go to the gym, you feel like eating better, you feel like drinking more water, you feel like practicing, you feel like going for a walk. One thing leads to another. In the same way, it's like a feedback loop in physics. If you do something. Like I've eaten the chocolate now, I've watched another episode and it's like they cascade from each other so you can create those cascades.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. I love that. Another question came in from the name is no name. This is the first he or she, who shall not be named. They asked, what are some ways to push through burnout? What are some ways to push through burnout?

Gemma Sugrue:
Yes. So I think that there are push pull seasons in our life. In my life, anyway, I have push pull seasons. And burnout for me, like the definition of burnout for me is hard, intense work with no end in sight. If my brain thinks this is never going to end, then I burnout. I'm like, I can't take this anymore, this is not tolerable. But if I have an end in sight, then I'm okay. I'll really grind. And I like to have a grind. I like to really get intense and get the courts all levels up on a daily basis and I'm up for it. But I need to know that this is a sprint. So I would probably run sprints in my year and go, there's a sprint. We're going to work. We're going to go. But then I get to let go.

Gemma Sugrue:
There's going to be the chill out season just after that for maybe a one or two weeks. So that's my way of avoiding burnout. But if you're in burnout, I think like, yeah, stepping back and seeing what are you doing that you don't need to do? Like write down everything that you're doing. And so much of it is like just in a pattern of just being busy and like, see how much you can simplify, make that a challenge. Like how simplistic can I make my life? How much can I pull away from? And sometimes we're doing a lot of stuff for other people. Sometimes people are people pleasers and we are afraid to say no. Get really good at saying no. Like, no, should be your favorite word because a yes is always a no to yourself to something else you wanted to do. So being very careful with that. But I think the biggest thing for me is that burnout is no end in sight, hard work intensity. And so preventing that and working in sprints.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, it definitely even correlates to just like running a marathon for... So I ran a marathon for the first time last year and it was... Like, especially the end of the marathon is like pretty grueling. But knowing that you only have like a mile or two left, it kind of gives you this extra drive to keep pushing. Where if you didn't have an outcome, if you didn't know like how far you are, then I think it just feels infinite. It feels really difficult to keep going, makes a ton of sense. All right. So I think we have time for maybe one more question from Bobby L. And this is cool, I see, I think it's probably Ari or Jared, like in Google Docs typing this up as we talk right now. So I see this like for being into actual thing. Bobby L said, you mentioned in The War of Art. I love that book. What are some of your other favorite books for artists?

Gemma Sugrue:
Oh, so many. I'm going to tell one, Letting Go. Is that Richard? Oh, my goodness. What's his name? Because it's not David. It's Richard Hawkins or is it David Hawkins. But look up Letting Go. One of your amazing production... Ari might be able to Google it.

Michael Walker:
Is it The Art of Letting Go?

Gemma Sugrue:
No, I think it's just Letting Go.

Michael Walker:
Okay. Richard Rower, maybe?

Gemma Sugrue:
No, let me...

Michael Walker:
Sorry. I just Googled that. I think it's not coming up, but

Gemma Sugrue:
It's David Hawkins. David Hawkins. So the reason why is it's this it's a spiritual book. David Hawkins. Yes, but what's so, it was like a big transformation for me. Because really what, like if I ask any artist, what's the ultimate goal for them. They're like, I just want to be in the at moment on stage with people present with me and with me present with them. Like that seems to be like the pinnacle for most people I work with. And I'm like, oh, wow. Like, so therefore working on your ability to be present in that moment is very crucial because this is actually what's driving everything you are doing right now. And so he talks about all the ways that we process emotion and we suppress, we repress, we express and repress, suppress, express...

Michael Walker:
Digress.

Gemma Sugrue:
Totally. I like how that flows. But we kind of associate expressing a lot with performing. But I think that his approach is cooler, is better, is to surrender. And that takes a lot of trust on stage, but that's when the magic happens. And it's when you're not actively expressing yourself on stage that you're actually allowing yourself to be, get out of the way of the music, be in the moment and let the moment kind of bring about whatever it's going to bring about and you kind of surrender to that and let that flow. And I think training yourself on how to do that is really important. So that would be one of my favorite books that I teach singers about. Essentialism, like we've talked. I'm going to look back at my bookshelf here if there's anything else. Deep Work. Deep Work by Cal Newport is an excellent book.

Gemma Sugrue:
That's all about just getting into... Like it's so hard for us to do one thing. And we train our brain to multitask all of the time. And I would actually say that's like a really good tip is to like, don't allow yourself to multitask because you're teaching your brain how to not focus. And then when it comes time to focus and be quiet and be still and write your music, it's very challenging. Because your brain's like, no, no, no, this isn't what I do. You should see me multitasking. I'm really good at it. We should do that instead. You're like, no, no, no. We're going to focus. It's like why? You've trained me to be a multitasker. So stop training yourself to be a multitasker and become really good at having that deep focus. And it's so blissful when you allow yourself to get into it. So that's another fantastic one, Deep Focus by Cal Newport.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Thank you. I actually just picked up the book Letting Go by David Hawkins right now. So I'll look forward to this of that one soon. It is so funny, I find like the meditation practice has really helped to get more comfortable with that idea of letting go and just releasing and being present, which it seems like, I don't know, like before I really experienced it, it seemed hard to understand how surrendering or letting go could actually be like really powerful. But yeah, it's so funny how difficult it is to like sit down and just like be present and just notice your breath for like 10 minutes. Especially if you have never meditated, it's like the mind just goes crazy and it wants to do all these things. Man, that's something to be curious about is sort like, Hmm. Like what would happen if I just actually just like, let go of all that stuff, right?

Michael Walker:
Just for, just for 10 minutes, just for 10 minutes and just see like what happens and at the core, it really is just kind of like that experience of bliss and being in peace and presence and it's so... How wonderful is it that's what exists underneath all of the other stuff that is so stressful at times?

Gemma Sugrue:
I know. And that it's so challenging to sit and stay like a good dog. Like I can't sit and stay like a good dog. It's too hard and not do anything.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Well, Hey Gemma, this has been a great conversation. Thanks for geeking out with me and going down different paths, like very practically. I feel like this has been really helpful for people. Really the core of their voice is really being able to, like you said, be present, be present with themselves and have a vision, have a goal for their identity, who they want to be. So I appreciate you coming on here to share a little bit about your lessons, what you've learned through your journey and for anyone who's here right now live or might be listening to this on the podcast. Could you share, where's the best place for people to go to learn more if they're interested in diving deeper or learning more about your vocal coaching and the different programs that you offer?

Gemma Sugrue:
So I have a website provocalartist.com. So that's my program. It's been in pilot mode. It will be launching it if you're listening to this around now. We'll be launching it in April 2022, the end of April, which is exciting. I'm very active, usually on my social media, even though I'm having a recalibration right now. So I've actually pulled back a little bit to recalibrate, but usually I'm super regular there. Instagram, like I'm always welcoming a DM and a hello and I'll shoot you back a voice memo even. And so I'm @GemmaSugrue on Instagram, but you'll find all those handles on my Provocalartist.com website.

Michael Walker:
Beautiful. Yep. So like always in the show notes, we'll put all the links, so you have easy access to go find it. But Gemma you're awesome. Thanks so much for being here alive and until next time.

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of today's episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about their guests today. And if you want to support the podcast, then there's a few ways to help us grow. First if you hit subscribe, then I'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends or on your social media, tag us, that really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take the music careers to the next level. It's time to be a modern musicians now. And I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.