Fifi Rong:
It's not a zero sum game anymore. It's a positive sum game. If we can work together and be nice to one another powered by people, then we can help each others to create value, and then your fans, say in a fan club, that's gated by NFT, the relationship is they own a piece of this community, literally. Now, I have a true ownership of a piece of this community. Then they will want to feel more motivated to run this thing with you together.

Michael Walker:
It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician, and it's slowly getting better. If you have high quality music but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution with today's music industry, and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

Michael Walker:
All right. I'm super excited to be here today with Fifi Rong. Fifi is our Gold Artist of the Year for Modern Musician for 2022. She's amazing. Oh, my gosh! She has really gone through a remarkable transformation, and she's really plugged into this community of NFTs for musicians, and this new technology in web 3.0. it's almost like a tidal wave of energy that's been happening, and she's done some remarkable things.

Michael Walker:
So I wanted to bring her on to the podcast and just have a conversation where we could share her story and geek out a little bit about what's coming in the next year, both in terms of the NFT marketplace and web 3.0 overall, and also with modern musician right now. We're developing an NFT marketplace for musicians. So yeah, it's going to be a fun one. So Fifi, thank you so much for taking the time to come on here.

Fifi Rong:
Thank you for having me, and most importantly, thank you for the whole community and Modern Musician to choosing me to be the artist of the year. Thank you.

Michael Walker:
You've earned it. You're awesome. So maybe we could start off by if you could just share a little bit about yourself and your artist journey and how you became the Gold Artist of the Year, and then from there, we can geek out and go into NFT.

Fifi Rong:
Yeah. Awesome. So I'm a full-time independent music artist, singer, songwriter, producer based in London. So I've always been independent. So I would say I've been full-time in the last five, six years, but the first few years were okay. Pre-pandemic, it was okay. I could make ends meet. So I didn't really get my funnel, my business structure ready. It wasn't in place. I was always on the passive side where I was invited to do the tours, and if I had a single record deal here and there, like I was in a limbo in a way, especially when pandemic hit my career, it was just an overall stagnant, I would say. It wasn't devastating, but overall, I just felt like I had so much potential. Also, I felt guilty that I wasn't really doing everything that I could knowing the marketing, the method is out there, and then people are utilizing all the tools like what Modern Musician and Gold Artist teaches.

Fifi Rong:
So I was eyeballing on this Gold Artist for a year and I didn't put my foot down, didn't pull the trigger until I was really running out of money. So that was like the last bit of money of my saving. So my calculation was I could live off what I have for about 12 months, but if I really gamble on this, so the money will go in five months. If this works, which it has to work, then I can make it back. So it was a risky thing to do. So because of Michael, who I'm talking to right now, that really convinced me because I was doing the one-band challenge, I'm very into the whole vibe and feeling and intuition.

Fifi Rong:
So after Michael's generosity in helping everybody, and Michael is such a pure heart of gold person, and I know your mission, I know how you are here to help musicians in order to help the world, to help change the world. So because of that, I remember you stay online for four hours just to take 90 something people to sort out every single problem.

Fifi Rong:
So after you've done that, I realize your team are very like-minded because it was your vibe attracts your tribe. So I felt this is the right team. If I have to gamble on anybody, then I gamble on this one. So I went for it. Also because this was my last resource, so I worked really hard and I took whatever that you guys taught me to use a little bit of my creativity and the entrepreneurial spirit and I just went for it.

Fifi Rong:
The keyword in the whole thing, I think what really got me to win the Artist of the Year, I think it was the word community because I didn't really ... A lot of people are like that, will call themselves as lone wolves because we're stuck in our own studio and working on our own stuff, and how human beings are, the more separate you are, the more separate you think you are.

Fifi Rong:
So it makes you feel, "Ah, this whole community is so cheesy. It's not for me. It might be for them," until I got myself in one where everybody in Gold Artist and the Modern Musician celebrate each other's success, and that's really transformational for me. Then that just bring me out of that selfish zone because I thought I was really selfish, but that was the training of my isolated life. One is pandemic. One is because I'm the producer, and then the last double album took me five years.

Fifi Rong:
Of course, I'm the only child, of course, I'm alone. It doesn't mean that I'm a selfish person. Also, there's another layer to this is in web 2.0, as in everything that's outside, currently web 3.0, the blockchain technology. It's a very zero sum game. The competition is very fierce. So the general culture, especially in music, is very competitive. It's like if I take your spot, then there's one less spot for me because you're taking that airtime of the attention.

Fifi Rong:
So it's a general environment that is not the most conducive for givingness or love or care, but luckily, I found myself in Gold Artist like this community. That bring out the good in me a lot. So because of that community, then I wanted to really overcome my standoffishness. So I started to help other people. I wanted to help other people as well. Then that got me into, I would say the one step before that was because of Gold Artist given me the confidence to get my structure together.

Fifi Rong:
So I've got my automation in place. That gave me confidence to go to web 3.0 namely, currently just mostly Twitter, people gathering Twitter. The social audio is called Spaces. So I have the confidence, and the time, and the energy, the knowledge I learned from you to go there and then to build my community over there.

Fifi Rong:
The first how I got there was out of curiosity and the education. So I wanted to learn, but I noticed there wasn't any music community in NFT just yet, but I did find several people dotted around the net. So I thought, "Why don't I bring a bunch of Gold Artists from ..." At that time, I was still in the third month of Gold Artists. "So let me get everybody." I said, "Hey, I found cheese." Just imagine if I'm a little mouse. "Hey, I found cheese. Come over here. Get all the names there."

Fifi Rong:
So we have some people who followed me there, but some people, other people, they are just not ready, but now I realize more and more people who are ready. So I went with the educational attitude to go there and learn. Since I started to host the Space, I wasn't even teaching because I was just there to learn, but it doesn't stop me from getting other people to learn with me. So that's how I got started just around six months ago.

Fifi Rong:
We happen to land there in the right time and the place, where people saw this whole music NFT community thing is working in web 3.0. So we saw exponential growth of the scene. Then suddenly, that scene becomes 10 different spaces around the clock. That became hundreds of people and thousands of people. It's not going crazy, unsustainable way, but you just see, "Oh, there is a scene now," but prior the time that I arrived, I just saw there was no scene.

Fifi Rong:
So that's like a, when did I join Gold Artist? That was last July and I finished and then everything, and I started my crowdfunding campaign to prepare for my album release, double album release around October. Then that's when I started in September in NFT until now. Going forward, my emphasis of my releases is quite web 3.0 focused, but then I'm inventing and experimenting on channeling the web 2.0 and the web 3.0 funnel into one thing because I'm one person. I don't have teams around me.

Fifi Rong:
So I've already done that as in the web 2.0 funnel that I learned from Gold Artist. Say, 80% of the traditional way of merge vinyls and CDs and all the T-shirts, and then 20% of NFT goodies. I said at a point of a price where the web 3.0 people come in and then they will be really happy for that price just to get NFT if they don't get anything else and the vice versa.

Fifi Rong:
So if you don't care about NFT, you don't have to claim this. So I don't force anything on people. So that's that, but after currently, I'm going to do a web 3.0 funnel. So by me being the prototype, I can teach other people how to do it as well. So I am quite happy with having in this role because that's very playing into my creativity, the originality of almost like making art, but making in this role of pioneering.

Michael Walker:
It's so cool, Fifi. I'm so excited to be able to collaborate together and be working. So Fifi, right now we're talking about working together to help bridge the gap between what she has defined as web 2.0 and web 3.0, right? I think there is a huge amount of opportunity. I do think that NFTs, and we can talk more and geek out about this in a little bit, but I do think that it's like the internet when the internet first came out, right? There's a lot of excitement. There's a lot of people who are like, "This seems geeky. I don't really understand this. What's going on?" There's also a bubble. There's a bubble got popped at a certain point and there's all this excitement, all this energy and then it popped, but the internet is still the internet, and it changed everything, and it made a huge impact.

Michael Walker:
So I see a lot of the web 3.0 talk and NFTs. I think that we're still figuring it out and understanding it. I think there's a bubble and it's going to pop, but I think there's so much potential, and I'm excited to be able to collaborate and work together to really facilitate this transition and helping artists to fully leverage it.

Michael Walker:
So your story is so amazing, Fifi. I mean, you had your last bit of savings saved up and it is this last arrow in your quiver that you fire. Isn't it funny how sometimes it seems like that point where your back is up against the wall and it's like you have no shit like, "I need to figure this out." That tends to be where our most resourceful energy can come from. So could you share a little bit about what happened, so your last arrow? Maybe you could share your little bit about, I know in your submission video you talked about the growth that you experienced. What did that look like and what did that turn into?

Fifi Rong:
The growth, in short, I definitely 10xed my business, I mean, my career, I wouldn't say in a way how the vanity matrix like Spotify place or the following, not in that way, but in a more real way, which is my income and crowdfunding campaign and how deep my connection with my supporters go. Previously, I was running a campaign. That was £5,000. That's $7,000 or something. I did that years ago for a few years. At the time, I had managers help, two people running something. It's much easier.

Fifi Rong:
Then now, I got $50,000 I raised, and then that really said a lot, described that I've learned something. I've learned to deepen the relationship with them. If you don't have a deep relationship with them rooting for me, they are normal people with normal income, they're the same people, especially during pandemic. We're not talking about people from web 3.0 with a lot of fees and with a lot of Bitcoin, right? These people, they're still 80%-90% from just normal people working class or people ... That's a lot of money. So that is a very significant I would say landmark on the success from the transition, and for other things, what was the question at the beginning? You're saying how did I-

Michael Walker:
I mean, I think you answered it pretty well. It was like you told the beginning of the story like, "I had my last arrow and I pulled the string," and what happened? Did you starve? Did you die? I'm making it up, but no. I think that what I love about your story and the way you described it, too, is that, yeah, you you were able to raise over $50,000 and 10xed your growth as a musician, but you also realize that ultimately that's not really the most important thing. Really, what it was was the connection that came from building real relationships with your fans and community. Right?

Fifi Rong:
Yeah. I would say there's something very internally that fundamentally changed. I already mentioned briefly that it's something to do with my own alignment. So if you, yourself, me, myself and I, when they are more in line, then the love, it comes out of me and then that everything else, my relationship with people and my immediate circle of people will be more aligned, and then that will ripple out.

Fifi Rong:
So I would say, this is a good point to talk about, I think in the video I talk about how the first big thing was I struggled for about 20 years, 15 years, 20 years to find the freedom to actually do music because I went through a lot of resistance because I came from China and I wasn't supposed to do music. I was told I had no confidence at all. So that was a big struggle.

Fifi Rong:
Then arriving in the UK, I was studying economics. I had absolutely no confidence, but then I went through the internal struggle to finally really say, "It's either die or do music," and I made a big gamble, burned all my bridges, and then carry over the guilt from not being a good daughter because I'm the only child, and my parents invested a lot in me and they told me not to do music because I know to pursue music is almost saying I will have to give up my motherhood because at that point, I was already mid 20s. So I know music is not going to, it would take five years just to that if I can do music. If there's anything in me that's special, that will take five years. Then to become well-known and to make something out of this career, that would take another 10 years.

Fifi Rong:
So I already knew that. So that means if I put music first, I'm going to betray my family, meaning not carry on the bloodline. That's a lot of guilt, heavy, coming from my culture. Another thing is financially. My parents, my dad's business, actually, I was going into an economic crisis. That was 2008. So I couldn't find a job. I had several months of my visa in this country that I was going to get kicked out of the country because I graduated, and I was supposed to find a normal job, but then I couldn't find anything.

Fifi Rong:
So it was just in that critical moment, and then my family, they couldn't support me anymore because of a family crisis financially. It's all related because the financial economy environment was really bad. So I did something crazy. I mean, I guess it's God or the universe was doing halfway. It's meeting me halfway. I was meeting the universe. I couldn't find anything, but I could find unpaid job like internship in music.

Fifi Rong:
So I got into this music company being the liaison and the admin for other artists, which it really taught me. First, it got me into the scene and some other producer that found me and then put me as a producer with other girls in some kind of a producer band. That's one thing because that gave me the Mac, and I started to try to become a producer slowly. That was the first, like a tease.

Fifi Rong:
I said, "Oh, maybe you could," or something like that, but that was quite a period of time where I really thought about what do I want because since I gave up on music when I knew my life was meant for music, I wanted music but thinking I'm just having no talent, whatsoever. I gave up when I was 14. So around for 10 years I didn't do music, and I was absolutely miserable, not say depressed, but have you seen Unbreakable with Bruce Willis?

Michael Walker:
I think so. When you first said that, the first thing that came up was Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. It was a different Unbreakable, probably quite different.

Fifi Rong:
Yeah. So basically, it's like he's got this mild sadness in him that when you're not living your purpose, there's something that just, "I can't be happy." So I was hiding behind a lot of a dysfunctional relationship. I wanted this on purpose to hide my dream, but the more you drifted apart from your dream, the more hurtful it is. So I couldn't face that anymore.

Fifi Rong:
So when I became an adult, when I graduate, I was like, "Okay. I have to make a decision." So that took me a few years to say, "Okay. It is a double-edged sword. If I go into this, I would have all these kinds of pressure and the stress and then taking a big risk, but if I don't go into this, I would be miserable for the rest of my life." So I did the selfish thing. I followed my heart and then did it.

Fifi Rong:
The first five years, my family just thought I was clinically insane. They actually thought, they were just laughing. They're thinking, "You're too old. Really? You can't sing, though." That's the attitude. So I had to lock myself up producing and trying music for the first three, four years before I came out and called myself Fifi Rong. That's what it takes to find out if you are an artist.

Fifi Rong:
So given all that background, that was everything I had. That was everything. Music is everything I had. I put everything into this. So I was doing quite well the first few years establishing myself as Fifi Rong. Then later on, I got to a point where I need to go to the next stage. So I was actively looking for a manager, and I made that beginner newbie mistake of thinking the manager can make me successful, and I found the wrong person because I had that insecurity that I carried from childhood and then adolescence because I never had the competence being an artist.

Fifi Rong:
So it was very easy to not stand my ground, and in this very subtle intrinsic relationship, it's very easy to give my power away. So I did give my power away during this, like a power negotiation. So many artists have some very similar story. So I got very, very depressed. My internal alignment was 180 separate. It's like my ego was telling me, "Just bear with it because you already put in so much effort. You are already putting everything to this, so just get ... I know you're miserable, but you can just get through this and go to the other side," but my heart was like, "There's no way," because I lost all my mojo, my drive, my motivation, everything.

Fifi Rong:
So I got very depressed and I had anxiety, and I just felt this vehicle is stopping. It was really hard. The manager was trying to push the vehicle forward, but there's no engine inside. He was the engine and I was just a hollow shell, right? Also, I was living like a fraud and then the depression came from. All I had the passion for music, and at that point, I didn't want to make music and I just lost the love. I still had the talent and the skills, but I lost the love because I just lost the drive for everything.

Fifi Rong:
So there was something that happened and I was really blessed that I stood up and finally ended this and then got him out. Then that took a lot of courage because I was not getting any younger that in my little head I was like, "If I have to start again, I have to rewind the clock three years." So the last three years I have to go back to beginning and then to do it all again, but I was too depressed to not do that. So I had to start again.

Fifi Rong:
So Modern Musician came when I was still in the healing, the second year of healing, and the healing that involved a lot of self-love, forgiveness, self-judgment, and overcoming my ego, but there was the last bit that I couldn't get through. That was the opening my heart up to love another person because my insecurity, I always had this. This one person I felt very inadequate or insecure in front of when I'm in the situation that I'm compared to another artist. I always had this.

Fifi Rong:
So I felt really funny about relating to other people, the whole community. It's just, "Oh, that's not me." Gold Artist corrected that misalignment in me, and then that was the key.

Michael Walker:
All right. Let's take a quick break from the podcast so I can tell you about a free, special offer that we're doing right now exclusively for our podcast listeners. So if you get a ton of value from the show but you want to take your music career to the next level, connect with the community of driven musicians, and connect with the music mentors directly that we have on this podcast or if you just want to know the best way to market your music and grow an audience right now, then this is going to be perfect for you.

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Michael Walker:
That's so amazing. Incredible, incredible story, Fifi, and thanks for sharing that. I think you're right in terms of it seems like one of the part of the healing process for you has been reconnecting with who you are and reclaiming your power and realigning yourself. I forget who said this or exactly how they said it, but something along the lines of, "Our job isn't to find  love, but it's to you take away everything that's blocking it inside of us already." I think there's a lot of truth to that idea that we're already whole and perfect and complete and connected and one with everything, but there's something inside of us sometimes that cuts us off, that makes us feel like we're separate from everything else, that we're alone. That's the thing that comes up that usually we avoid looking at because it's dark and scary and we're like, "Who would I be if it wasn't ..." and being able to shine a light on that and reconnect it. You coming into yourself and coming into your power is just awesome. So thank you for sharing that.

Fifi Rong:
This is true. Yeah. It's so true. It's not that we are born bad. Another metaphor to this is it's just a corner. Darkness is not a thing. The darkness is where the light hasn't reached, right? As long as you shine the light to the darkness, it's no darkness. So it's like now we realize, "Okay. So I have that love inside. It was either blocked or it was something inside of me that I didn't believe." It was a self-limited belief or something like that.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, absolutely. Being the light and shining the light and doing that for ourselves, but then that's our role I think in the world is to be able to shine a light, and that's what you're doing. With your music, with who you are, with sharing your story, and not to get too metaphorical here, but I really think that that is, in a lot of ways, it's like shining a light, right?

Michael Walker:
I think there's something really interesting just about light itself. I read Einstein's biography and he had a lot of realizations about just the quality of light itself. Apparently, time moves at exactly the same speed as light. So if somehow you're able to go faster than the speed of light, then you'd actually be reversing time. So the exact speed of light is the exact speed at which time passes, which is really interesting, but also, when you think about it, basically, life on earth as we know it, only exists because of light energy from the sun that nurtured the plants, which absorbs energy, and then we eat the plants. So it's all light energy that we're comprised of in a way, right? So I think this idea of being light, shining a light is a really interesting metaphor.

Fifi Rong:
I'm pretty sure the whole spirituality and the energy, a lot of people these days, especially in this decade, people are talking about laws of attractions and energy and all that kind of stuff. These things are all scientific. I'm pretty sure it's all scientific. It's just the science that hasn't really been able to explain those things, but they are slowly, slowly quantum physics and starting to explain a lot more.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. Yeah. I find this topic super fascinating around just the power of thoughts. I think there is, obviously, there's some things with the law of attraction, I think, where it's like if I'm just going to sit down in a room and think, imagine something, and then magically it's going to happen, it's not exactly how it works, but there is so much power and the ability to create a vision and to create that belief and to continue. I think that everything that exists around us, especially everything that was created by man or woman, is something that was first started as a thought, right? Everything that was made by humans is started as a thought, and it took some time to develop it, to turn it into an actual thing, right?

Michael Walker:
Even in this room right now, if we look around at all the things that exist, it's like, "Well, it probably started out as a thought," and then there was some gap between the thought and the realization of the thing itself.

Fifi Rong:
Yeah, like a Proctor. I think that's him. Bless him. He just passed away. He's one of the ... I think what he said is like, "Everything is created twice," right? One is in your head and the one is in the reality. So definitely.

Michael Walker:
It's fascinating. Yeah. It just like the connection between the thought and the thing, right? It's almost like the seed and the tree. It's like the seed contains the tree in and of itself. I mean, there wouldn't be a tree without the seed, right? There's something about that, the creative energy, thoughts themselves or just this very high frequency level of creation. I think that in a large degree, we can think a lot faster than we can do. We can think faster than we can talk or speak or communicate. We can think faster than we can take this creative thought. I think some of the best musicians, they're literally able to channel their thoughts. So it's like they don't have to think about that they're going to move their fingers a certain way. They just channel this greater energy through them. So there's no gap between their thoughts and the actual realization of the noises that they're making, right?

Michael Walker:
So I feel like I'm really going down a rabbit hole here. So I promise I will pull back up here, but I'm especially fascinated by Neuralink, the thing that Elon Musk is making right now with the brain interfaces. I think that whether it's Neuralink or some other form of interface that one of the greatest revolutions of our lifetime likely is going to be our ability to interface with computers to be able to potentially telepathically communicate with each other on the level of thought as opposed to right now, there's this bandwidth issue where we're not able to communicate as fast and accurately as we would be able to if we were able to directly threw our thoughts.

Michael Walker:
Of course, there's a lot of fears that come up around like, "Oh, having good a device in my brain that can read my thoughts." Nothing could go wrong with that, right? So obviously, there's a lot of fear around that, but I think that it's an evolution that's inevitable. I do think that it's something that's going to bring us together and it's actually going to shine a light. I think it is going to shine a light on everything that we're afraid of right now where we're like, "Oh, if they actually knew who I am, if they knew what I actually thought, then no one would love me or I'd die," or something.

Michael Walker:
I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm really fascinated by this idea of having this interconnected, increased bandwidth like the internet, but now it's like our brains are able to connect with each other more directly and open up those channels. What would even happen then?

Fifi Rong:
I actually have heard on different planets. I mean, that is a little bit woo-woo, but it has been said that on a different planet, which is much more evolved than we are, they actually can read each other's mind just like that, but then they are maybe, isn't it a thousand years ahead of us on their civilization, but anyways, so going back to-

Michael Walker:
It's interesting stuff.

Fifi Rong:
Yeah. I was just going to say how you were starting from the thought that creates your reality. It is very similar to echo back. When I say my internal alignment, when that click into place, everything else happens. That's a testament of what we just talked about. It's true, isn't it? It's like when my thought became right, then everything else just starting to fall into places.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The thoughts around, I mean, you talked about reconnecting with me, myself, and I, right? It sounds like, really, it's a lot about identity and about becoming who you are. I think that that's one thing that is so fascinating is identity in and of itself and how we construct identities for ourselves, and how those identities, depending on our level of belief in them, can either really hold us back, and just the idea like what is a self in the first place, and exactly what are we comprised of, right? A lot of times we think of ourselves like our body mind, but if we can cut off our arms, we're still me. If we cut off all of our limbs, we're still technically me. So that's not really who we are.

Michael Walker:
We think, "Well, then it's my mind. It's my personality," but basically, there's these different tests, inquiries, self-inquiry that you can do, and when you go down to the route, it's like you get down to like, "Okay. What actually is it that is me that's separate from everyone and everything else?" You can't actually really find anything that's separate. There actually is nothing that's separate from everyone and everything else, ultimately.

Michael Walker:
Obviously, we have our bodies and our minds and we have different humans, but the self itself, the self itself, it's just one thing. We're all one living being that's interconnected. There's nothing that's not connected to everything else, right?

Fifi Rong:
You are so enlightened. You're very enlightened. So if you meditate a lot, there is definitely a broader self. You will have a very clear feeling that there is something bigger than you that gives you answer because when we are busy with our daily things and we are using a different part of our brain, that's the ego self. That's me, my name is, what I want, right? Then there are certain moments of transcendence like ayahuasca or acid and things like that that takes you to that, "Oh, we're connected. That me is a bigger me." So there's different levels of awareness.

Fifi Rong:
That's actually what I'm going to do in the next seven EPs. I'm describing the seven stages of spiritual evolvement from the first would be the primal fear, jealousy, and then that ego self threatened and frightened by the outside because I see me as the ego me, and until the last one would be the unity consciousness. We might have a glimpse of that. I'm not saying that I'm there. Just maybe I have experienced a glimpse of that. So I want to write about that. Very interesting.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. That's so cool. Well, I'm definitely excited to listen to the new music. I think that, yeah, the way that you put it, how there's a smaller self and a bigger self, and the smaller self is maybe how we identify. It's almost like a branch on a tree, right? It's like a smaller self. It's an extension of something that is interconnected. That's a greater self. Ultimately, defining that, that point in actuality where there is a separate self, it's not there. You can go deeper, you can look inside and look inside, and it's like this bottomless pit.

Michael Walker:
It's like Alice in Wonderland. They have all these kids going down and down. There's a mystery to I and we can't conceptually, our minds can't fully grasp it unless they're completely silent, which is ironic because then it's like the more you try to discover it, the more that it gets cloudy, but then instead, if you just can sit in silence for a minute and just observe things as they are, then everything becomes so clear, but our minds, like you're talking about, the egos of it, it just keeps going, going, going because it's afraid of, I don't know, dying because if it saw that, that it ultimately is an illusion, then it ends up, a part of it dies because it's not actually real, ultimately, it's just an idea, right?

Fifi Rong:
I heard is at a certain level or stage of evolution that ego was come from the package of that we need to know who we are so we don't get eaten by the tigers and the lions. So we need to know that we need this ego to protect us, but we have evolved, passed that stage. So right now, the ego is not doing us any favor, but it's still there like our primal, the anxiety, feeling like, oh, your boss said something and you now feel like, "I'm being chased by a tiger, or before we go on stage, we feel like literally like, "I'm going to die. My mouth is all dry." So that's all very primal. That come from thousands of years ago in our body.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. Yeah. That's one of the things that's most fascinating to me about how our brains work is how, and I think most of us wouldn't consciously be aware of this or that this is driving us, but yeah, there's been a lot of science and studies that have shown that we're actually way more driven by our subconscious and our brain and our primal safety mechanisms than we're consciously aware of that we would normally take credit for. Yeah. A lot of times, those strings are the ones that are pulling the strings and it's really the base fear is around fear of dying, I think, like survival, right?

Fifi Rong:
Yeah. Your mind is not supposed to make you successful, but to keep you alive. So that's why a lot of people who are alive are miserable and most people aren't successful, unfortunately, because we have to be aware of that, what is primal in us, and then to overcome that. I realized in successful people, they understand that. That's why they follow the fear. Whatever scares them, they need to do that thing, and then they break through and then they go to do the next thing, but unfortunately, most people don't do that.

Michael Walker:
That's so interesting. I wasn't expecting thing to geek out and go into this type of conversation, but this is a lot fun. So maybe we could talk before I wrap up. I'd love to hear your thoughts and insights on, I mean, you've learned so much about web 3.0 and about NFTs moving forward. So maybe we could do a quick segment where you can share. Obviously, we don't have a ton of time here, but I would love to hear from your point of view. What's the core of this transition or this transformation between web 2.0 to web 3.0? What does that mean and how do you see NFTs and, really, what do you see as the opportunities for musicians as we approach web 3.0?

Fifi Rong:
Yeah, that's really good. I just had a little one last thing to close up, our last conversation, because it just stayed in my mind. It wouldn't leave. So actually, that conversation come from web 3.0 in our community because we talk about, because it's like kids in a candy shop. We have such great connection because our web 3.0 is really powered by people, that connecting people.

Fifi Rong:
Web 2.0 is very much of the financial structure besides where you are, and then you make connection with the people. They decide. So that traditional financial centralized structure decides where people connect, but in web 3.0, it is people first. So we always have a lot of really great connection with people and then just loving on one another, but don't have the discipline to actually go and execute stuff.

Fifi Rong:
So this conversation actually came in a group called NFT Music Women that I help fund. It's like a community for the women there. So I shared, there are just three words. One is self-love. Second is self-awareness, and then the third is self-discipline. That's three things. If we can have that three things which working for and then with one another, it's like self-interconnected, right? So everything that we've said, we've talked about over the last hour so far is a about that three things, and number is very important to have the discipline, to do all the rest, to do the work and to actually achieve more self-esteem. So that's part of self-love, right?

Fifi Rong:
So being aware of who you are, that's everything that we talked about. So knowing who you are decides your artist's identity, your purpose, and ... everything else. Super, super important knowing who you are, and then that all feeds into the self-love. Then once you have self-love, it's all about the self and the world is just a reflection of who you are with yourself, right?

Fifi Rong:
Then you have the self-discipline. Super, super important because we can get so carried away. You have a career in web 2.0, and then now you're just like, "Ah, this is transformation. This is a new world." Don't get so excited. Okay? Because everything so far in the last six months I've been in the mud in NFT. There's not so much difference. The only difference is over here we have six to eight million people on Spotify competing for attention. That's why Gold Artist teach us how to really hack into that connection. How do we really, really ... It's like low oxygen tank when you're trying to run. You practice running. Then now, you're going to a web 3.0, where it is not saturated. It's not that competitive. Then you feel like, "Oh, you are flying," but the saturation's going to come. The people is going to come. Competition's going to come.

Fifi Rong:
So when 1,000 people, 10,000, 100,000 people trying to sell the same NFT, you better do something. You better have your structure, your funnel, and then your connection, how you really loving on your fans and how that ... A lot of people in web 3.0 say, "Nah, I don't want to do that," because we have a new layer of ... because people hold your NFT. They can trade. They can sell. They have the financial incentive by holding your NFT. I said, "That is a really good thing. You go from 2D to 3D. This is really great," but when the competition is here, you better do something and then know what you're doing with your artist's identity, again, self-awareness. So the conversation is the same.

Fifi Rong:
So I just wanted to put it there first, and then now, I'm answering your question. The main thing difference is web 2.0 is our central world where the big tech giants are controlling who they want, what they want to do, and how you going to have this as done, right? You have the Google, YouTube. You have Facebook, Meta, and you have those big companies. So the world is really built on this top down like a pyramid centralized world.

Fifi Rong:
Whereas the blockchain technology 3.0 is decentralized, and that's the keyword of decentralized. It's a block-by-block. For people who don't understand that, just check what is blockchain. So the information is decentralized and distributed, and that is built by block. So there is no centralized server, right? So that really changes everything, how information is distributed, and then immediate effect is ownership.

Fifi Rong:
So it feels like in web 2.0 we are renting our space. We are renting the best thing we can do as a musician so we can get people to do subscription. Then that is still a passive experience. You are performer. You're giving them something. They're there to receive it. It's not so much of an interaction, but that's the best thing we have, but in web 3.0, your audiences, your collectors, your NFTs are very ... That hierarchy suddenly flattens. Suddenly, they become your a promotional team because if you give out, say, this one NFT in 10 additions, then this 10 holders are at the same position as you. You're not higher than them, they're not higher than you, but you need to work together to raise the low price, to hold the low price so then all of you can benefit together because you need to work with it. Otherwise, one person just doesn't listen. That will crush the low price. That is just one example.

Fifi Rong:
So what that does is that it changes the nature and the characteristic of your relationship. Why is it people are so loving on one another? Because we can all benefit together. It's not a zero sum game anymore. It's a positive sum game. If we can work together and be nice to one another, powered by people, then we can help each other to create value, and then your fans, say in the fan club that's gated by NFT, the relationship is they own a piece of this community, literally. So they don't feel like, "I'm renting a space. If you want to kick me out," it's really passive, but then now I have a true ownership of a piece of this community.

Fifi Rong:
Then they will want to feel more motivated to run this thing with you together. So that's very similar to a Dow concept, but we don't want to get too excited because that's another level. There's a lot of other things, too. It's decentralized autonomous organization. Let's not talk about that, but there's a lot of principles that can say transferable skills that we can use from web 2.0 to web 3.0, but the biggest thing is from the centralized to decentralized, the read and write, to read, write, and own, the ownership, and your relationship is much closer, flatten the hierarchy.

Fifi Rong:
I would say on the big high level point of view, that would be the main difference. On a more realistic level is that you can make a lot more money because there's a lot of liquidity in NFT. There's just so much liquidity there. People used to pay a lot more than today. For example, I was selling my starter pack, welcome pack, and I had someone who's questioning me about all the values that I give to albums and this and that, and sign autograph, and then he was dwelling on the postage fee, the one that want to cover myself. I don't go after the coffee, right?

Fifi Rong:
So in web 2.0, you actually do have people question that. That's a few pounds. Whereas in NFT, the price mark you are just thinking 10x or sometimes 100x. So for people, you have to come in. If you are not lazy, you can have the first mover advantage. For the people who just really don't want to do that, you can still benefit, but when it gets saturated and everything, the red carpet rolled out for you, then be prepared that you are not the first doing anything because the first has been taken. Yeah.

Michael Walker:
That totally makes sense. Yeah. That's super helpful to understand and a couple of points that you made that I think are really important are, one, I think the understanding of, and I think that this is something that really makes you really special in the NFT community, like you mentioned, is that the foundation or the fundamentals of what makes business successful, which is really around providing value and serving a need and connection, those things don't necessarily have changed as much. Those fundamentals are always going to be the fundamentals. You provide service, you provide value.

Fifi Rong:
More so, absolutely, 100%.

Michael Walker:
Right. So you have those fundamentals, but there's this tool and there's this opportunity, this way that really changes the game and in so many ways. I think you're so spot on, too, when it comes to the key. I'm certainly not a master or an expert, I understand everything when it comes to the blockchain. It's something that's still newer for me as well, but it does seem like the biggest shift is really around those two key terms you talked about, centralization to decentralization.

Michael Walker:
Interestingly, I feel like that that shift has more to do or it's more connected than you'd might think to part of what you were talking about with the brain interfaces and about this movement with being able to help out, to communicate with each other and about identity and small self, bigger self. Decentralization, just as an idea, I think is really interesting and blockchain, having the capability to essentially effectively decentralize these organization, the organization of power is very, very interesting.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. That might be something that's a bit longer term. Who knows? Being fully decentralized, everything, and brain interfaces and being able to, I don't know, decentralized, it feels like centralized. Let's say that we all were interconnected through brain interfaces and we were able to become, and I know for some people it's going to be like, "Oh, that sounds scary and terrible. Ah!" but having a hive mind almost, having a hive mind where we were all able to be interconnected.

Fifi Rong:
Joe Dispenza's retreat.

Michael Walker:
I swear I've heard probably 10 to 20 people who've been like, "Joe Dispenza, Joe Dispenza," usually when I'm geeking out and I'm talking about stuff like this, but I haven't-

Fifi Rong:
He talks about that hive mentality. He said, "The birds that fly, there's no boss telling them where to fly, but they're connected. They interconnected," and then that kind of thing we can do as human as well, but-

Michael Walker:
That's really interesting. Joe Dispenza, so I'm not qualified to make a judgment of him or not. The one thing with him that ... I started reading one of his books and pretty early on I stopped reading it because there was a point where he was talking about science and about how there was some studies that he disagreed with, and then he was just like, "Screw science. I don't care about science. Science isn't real." I don't remember exactly what it was, but there was something, and I might have jumped to conclusions too quickly, maybe there was a better point to it, but to me, it felt like, I think it's really important that as we're treading this territory that we have a lot of respect for science and for not just having hypothesis, but actually testing things in reality. At the same time, science has limitations so I think we're going to grow into it, but I think science is really, really important.

Fifi Rong:
I think he meant a Newtonian, called a Newtonian science. I think when you say he says, "Screw," something, something, that's like we have evolved to the quantum science of the stuff. He's very science-based from what I know. Then the only thing he's against is the science that's already quite in the past like hundred years ago, Newtonian science, for example. Yeah. I think that's-

Michael Walker:
Well, maybe I'll need to give it another shot and dig a little bit into it. So yeah, decentralization and centralization, it could be connected to this evolution or revolution when it comes to the way that artificial intelligence is developing. It seems like over time, especially in the last 20 years, "artificial intelligence" is seemingly less and less artificial. It's becoming more and more life-like or human-like compared to Microsoft Sam, "Hello, I am a robot." Now, our devices that we can talk to, that can understand what we're saying and do a decent job responding, they're not perfect, but just like that trajectory, it's not going to be very long now before what we think of as artificial intelligence is able to communicate with us and probably a very similar way to how we have a conversation right now and at that point, but with all the benefits of being able to be interconnected with tons of other computers and having this huge bandwidth that it feels like it's either we're going to be able to merge with that type of intelligence or it's either going to leave us behind. So there's a lot of-

Fifi Rong:
Because there's so much of it. Yeah. They're hundreds or if not thousands of times smarter than us if we can make them into interpreting our conversation. For example, I've seen a documentary called The Goal. They played the same goal with the world champion, the Korean guy, the machine one, AI one. Elon Musk also said he can't stress enough the existential cry like a stretch of AI himself. He does say that. It's coming like, "Why is no one aware of this?" It's the biggest threat, more than pandemic, more than with other stuff, right?

Michael Walker:
Right. I do feel like it's like a tidal wave that, I mean, again, if you just look at the trajectory with the artificial intelligence and how much it's grown in the past 10-20 years, we're not talking about 500 years from now. We're talking about 20 to 50 years from now, really this intelligence, having to figure out what we're going to do with it. What I'm more worried about is, I mean, who knows? I don't think that that intelligence in and of itself is going to be ... What's the word I'm what I'm looking for? Want to hurt humans or try to kill us or anything like that. I don't think that we have to worry about it being violent in nature.

Michael Walker:
What I think we probably need to be worried about more is the humans who have control over it, and if it's really siloed to a few centralized units of power, then that could be scary, what the humans do with that, but I also feel like just at that level, the artificial intelligence, it's going to be really hard to contain it to just a few people. I feel like it's something that in its very nature is going to be plugged into to everyone. So yeah, it's interesting.

Fifi Rong:
That's actually the danger of decentralization because everybody ... It's all open source. So the bad people can use the same technology to do things. So we have a lot of in-depth conversation in our spaces about how much is the web 3.0 policing and how much of a control there should be, and to decentralize is not actually a good thing because there are so many rock pools and scam because they use the technology for the bad thing. They're using a hammer to build a house versus to destroy, to break down a house, right? So those things are all in discussion. That's why we have so much discussion right now.

Fifi Rong:
Also, there's a fear of people behind money currently in web 2.0 controlling the music industry. They are not sitting there, right? They are already working on it and then they are not going to say, "Hey, I'm here to dominate you." No. They're not going to do that. They go from underneath as in in partnership and relationship. So a lot of independent artists are feeling the fear of, "Is it just going to be a web 2.0 version of web 3.0?" and having those few power control and all that.

Fifi Rong:
So people are trying to, in a way, fighting against that, but I'm a Pollyanna so I'm always positive about it. I just feel like they will have their place and we will have our place, but when the novelty wears off, what we are left with is the technology itself, and it depends on you, how you are using this technology. If you are lazy, then you don't get lunch. That's just how it is.

Michael Walker:
It's super interesting. I mean, honestly, Fifi, I could probably talk here for two hours just going to this. I mean, even what you just described, too, just in terms of distribution of power and some of this goes into things politically, too, like communism versus capitalism and the centralization of this type of power, and what does decentralization in terms of blockchain mean in terms of that. I mean, it seems like from a history's point of view that the attempts at communism so far have not worked out at all, this idea that we should all be the exact same playing field, and it does seem like there's something universal. There's a universal truth to the idea of the 80/20 rule, how for some reason it seems like 20% always accounts for 80% of the results. That creates this almost like a funnel type of shape.

Michael Walker:
I think there's a lot of truth to that notion. So the idea that should or are we moving towards a place, is it morally, ultimately, do we want to ... everything is exactly the same. Is that even possible? It doesn't seem like it worked at all. When it comes to distribution or power, too, I think that there are, obviously, it can be misaligned, right? If there's one or two people who have more wealth than everyone else combined, that's when you really run into some major issues. I think that there are, in a lot of ways, the distribution of wealth for the ultra, top 0.3%. Maybe there needs to be more done to help to distribute that.

Michael Walker:
That being said, I also think that, I look at billionaires and people who have a lot of money, and I feel inspired and I want to provide that much value to know that I was able to make that level of impact on people around the world, but some people look at that and think that's greedy or that it's wrong to have that much power, to own that much power. So it is an interesting conversation, especially when it comes to decentralization. We're talking about the distribution of power, how does that play out.

Fifi Rong:
I think the last thing ... Do we have the last point of few minutes?

Michael Walker:
Yeah. We probably need to wrap up here. Yeah. So sorry. This is totally me. I'm enjoying this conversation so much. I'm geeking it out, but this is going longer than we normally do.

Fifi Rong:
This is definitely wrapping up. I'm not talking about a different subject. My answer to everything that you have said there, I feel like we already talked about it and the answer is within this. I always see, this is my, I've never told anyone publicly about this, but my ultimate goal in life, maybe if I can live until 120, maybe not, is to help people to elevate towards unity consciousness, unity consciousness.

Fifi Rong:
The reason for that is I feel a lot of the technology and the social structures and the solutions are invented, trying to fix the symptom rather than the cure. It's like the Chinese medicine. You want to be aligned within first. So if you have good health, you don't have to fix the wounds, if you see what I mean. So the wounds that come from deep down the human undeveloped or unenlightened states of a lot of things that comes from, the lack of love, the lack of self-love, the lack of understanding of the self. So then the fear or the brokenness from childhood that grow into some kind of a monster.

Fifi Rong:
So a lot of people doing bad things instead of people trying to fix bad things or start a new ecosystem or society. What we need to actually fix people is us, right? Just think about it. If you say, "Okay. We have this advanced technology," but we haven't fixed inside the mind, the soul, then people will use this thing for bad things, but if we, and this is like Eckhart Tolle said, if all this information he's bringing as a spiritual teacher is taught in the kindergarten, then kids and then people grow up. They don't have the generational curse and they will grow up being loving like someone like you. So you are loving on other people. You are just like a born Buddha or something. You're just so unity conscious. You are. So if people are all like Michael, let's just say, then we wouldn't have bad things to be fixed. You see what I mean? So I'm always being-

Michael Walker:
You be careful now. My ego is really like so, so.

Fifi Rong:
Yeah. We're like, "Michael is the new Jesus Christ." Yeah, but anyways, I just mean what we need to fix the symptom of the problem and the crime, what the crime really need to be fixed is from the within, from the early one.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. I love that. I can't believe you haven't shared that before. That's an amazing mission, and I think that you're not alone. I mean, I think that that's something that we're all moving towards is a greater collective enlightenment. I like the way you described it, unity consciousness, and it's about shining the light on ourselves, which recognizing our connectedness with everyone and everything else. Well, I think that's interesting, too.

Michael Walker:
I had never thought about it this way until as you were just talking right now is around this idea, because I've had a hard time fully consolidating this idea of the 80/20 rule when it comes to also collective enlightenment and being one. It almost seems like it's in contradiction with this 80/20 rule because naturally, I mean, it's not just humans. This is nature. When you look at nature, 80% of the fruit is born from 20% of the results. There tends to be that split.

Michael Walker:
I wonder if what that could actually be connected to is with the progression of time, when something blossoms, when a tree blossoms, over time, 20%, it creates different branches that multiply and it turns into more abundance. So I wonder if the 20% turning into 80%, that's actually connected more to the nature of reality itself and life that it tends to expand, that it tends to blossom and grow. So maybe it's not necessarily something that is divisive where it's like, "Oh, there's always going to be the elites, the top 1%," as so much as this is the movement of life itself is blossoming and growing and turning into more multiplying. That's an interesting viewpoint to look at it.

Fifi Rong:
I think elite is not necessarily a bad thing. I feel like it is just like you say, the more value you provide, the more things you receive, right? The more abundance you receive. Then that's equal equation in the universe. Also, people are born different. Some people's ideal happiness is to be a chef and some people is to be a mom or be a dad. Some people it's like, "We want to go to the Mars." So people have different kind of dreams. As long as people are aligned and have that Christ consciousness, let's just say, unity consciousness, then they would find their solution.

Fifi Rong:
So the people who want to contribute build more like that 20% of people want to do more and they receive more abundance back to them. Then the 80% of people will be happy about it because that's a fair exchange and I don't want to give that much. So I don't see this contradiction as long as everyone is in alignment with who they are.

Michael Walker:
Super interesting. Awesome. Well, hey, Fifi. We've gotten down different rabbit holes, different paths on this, but it's honestly one of my favorite conversations that I've had in the past year when it comes to this stuff. So thanks for taking the time to be here and to share yourself and your story and everything you're working with NFTs and that movement. So for anyone who's listening or watching this right now, could you share where they could go to learn more or to get more connected with what you're doing with the NFT community?

Fifi Rong:
Yeah, for sure. I would say just go to fifirong.com, and then on the page you can find my link tree everywhere. I do have my NFT page as well. So if you go down the branch of my link tree, I have my NFT link tree inside my link tree. So it's very organized. So all the NFT resources to start with is all there. All my NFT projects are there, and the educational side I put together, NFT resources. So for people who really want to take that first step, and I have the most whole bunch of stuff for you to read that you can't find anywhere just by Googling and stuff because this is a very grass root level of wisdom from everybody. I didn't write them. I just sourced all the good stuff and easy to understand and digest stuff from everybody.

Fifi Rong:
So you can go and find that resource, and then you will have more information and maybe you will have more questions. Once you're starting to have questions, I would recommend that you go to Twitter and find me, and you can find my Twitter on my link tree. So if you come to find me, you can find me in Spaces and all that. Just say hi, and I'll take you to the Spaces. You don't have to come to my Space. You can to anybody's Space and start connecting with people. The way that you get into NFT is by literally saying hi.

Michael Walker:
So awesome. Cool. So like always, we'll throw all the links in the description for the show notes. People can click on it really easily, but sounds like you've really accumulated an amazing resource for people to go to and you've collected and you've curated it, which is super valuable. Yeah. I would definitely encourage anyone who's listening or watching this right now. If you're a musician right now who's pursuing a career in music or at least are interested in the music industry, then this is a really big movement that's happening right now. So I would definitely encourage everyone to dig deeper and stay in tune. We've got big plans for how we're planning on integrating with web 3.0 and the NFT systems. Fifi, you're awesome. I know this definitely won't be the last time that we talk and we geek out about stuff like this, but I appreciate you and appreciate what you're doing.

Fifi Rong:
Thank you so much, Michael. Lots of love.

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today, and if you want to support the podcast, then there's a few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe, then I'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends or on your social media, tag us. That really helps us out. Third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take their music career to the next level. It's time to be a modern musician now, and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.