Simon Tam:
When you're doing that live stream, and you're pairing yourself with that organization in a way that you're demonstrating your values align with theirs, their supporters are going to go nuts. They're going to be like, "Wow. There's this incredible artist that's doing work that I care about. Of course I'm going to support them by buying their CD, or showing up to the show, or telling a friend about this experience." And they get to do some good in the world too.

Michael Walker:
It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician, and it's only getting better. If you have high quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry, and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

Michael Walker:
All right. So, I'm excited to be here today with Simon Tam. He's an author, musician and activist best known as the founder and bassist of The Slants, which is the world's first and only all Asian American dance rock band. He also founded The Slants Foundation, which is a nonprofit that supports artists and activism for underrepresented communities. He actually won a case that went to the Supreme court, and he's got a really interesting story. So, I thought it would be great to have him on today to basically talk a little bit about how you can align your music and the platform that you're building with the causes that you care about. So, Simon, thanks so much for taking the time to be here today.

Simon Tam:
Thanks so much for having me.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. So, to start out with, I know you have a pretty interesting story, so I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about how you started The Slants and how you got to this point?

Simon Tam:
Sure. So, I originally started The Slants because I wanted to basically provide representation for Asian Americans. Something that I saw that was distinctly lacking in the music industry, and especially in the music that I love, which is punk and rock and roll, or even the synth pop that I grew up with in the 1980s.

Simon Tam:
And so in the early to mid 2000's, I just had this idea, what if I started an Asian American band and we just write songs about our experiences and kind of kick it off from there? Decided to call it The Slants as a way to tackle this false stereotype that at all Asian people have slanted eyes. And it's kind of a way to reappropriate that old racist stereotype and turn it into a badge of pride. And the response was just so unbelievable, more than anything else I've ever had in my music career with kids writing to us, telling us how much it meant to them to see something like that.

Simon Tam:
And of course, things took a pretty chaotic turn after that when we tried to apply to get a trademark for our name. And that's what eventually led us into this really long legal battle. It lasted about eight years, and it ultimately ended with us at the US Supreme court fighting for the right for us to register our trademark, but ultimately for the right of all artists to be able to express themselves and to use creative expression as a way to pair it up with meaningful content and speech that we believe is important to us.

Michael Walker:
That's awesome, man. I think that that's pretty remarkable that you were able to take something to the Supreme court like that, and over eight years win a case. And not just for you, but for really the impact that can make for other artists as well. So, I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about, we had a chance to connect a few weeks ago and you talked about really how you're able to align your platform and your music with these other causes that you care about. So, maybe you could share a little bit about some examples of different types of venues that you performed at and different ways that you've really been able to align with these different causes?

Simon Tam:
I think that a lot of artists who maybe are passionate about a particular cause take it one step at a time. Nobody sees this end goal of what it fully looks like without taking those initial steps and making some of those initial forms of reaching out to different organizations. And that's kind of like us. We started out touring and playing as any other traditional band, but it wasn't until we started getting all these notes from these kids that we realized that we needed to take it a step further. And so that began with us enrolling in classes on diversity and inclusion and even counseling, because a lot of the kids that were like reaching out to us had been bullied or physically attacked. Some of them were contemplating suicide, and we needed to be able to handle that appropriately, especially since they felt like they could turn to us, but not necessarily their parents or school teachers, so that sort of thing.

Simon Tam:
So, our first foray really was doing workshops at a lot of the places where we would perform. We would play at night and then in the daytime we would do workshops with kids and talking about how to address their issues of bullying, or their own identity and working with organizations to do that. But then as our career progressed, we just realized there were more and more causes that we were passionate about that we felt like we needed to get behind. So, that incorporated everything from playing at US prisons, to military bases overseas, to playing at law schools and anime convention.

Simon Tam:
So, we played a lot of unconventional stages for a typical rock band, but it ended up being really rewarding for us in all kinds of ways. And it eventually inspired us in 2018 to launch our own nonprofit organization. So, nowadays I spend most of my time mentoring other artists, funding artistic projects like films or albums, and just helping people explore what it means to be an artist activist, how that could be very enriching for their own personal satisfaction, especially if they have things they care about, but also how they can incorporate it into their work in a meaningful way that doesn't tokenize it, or doesn't try and exploit the causes that they're trying to support.

Michael Walker:
That's awesome, dude. And what a great example of your role as a musician and the influence that you have in using it in really a positive way, and also the responsibility and kind of like scariness of that. Of kids coming to you who are suicidal, who are really leaning on you and you can really help them, but also putting you in the spot of where you guys actually did the work and you figured out how can we actually support these people who are connecting with the music, is really awesome.

Michael Walker:
One thing that you mentioned was about how really this is about taking it step by step, and at the beginning you're really figuring out what are the causes that you're truly passionate about that you can align with and starting to reach out and build relationships with the organizations that are part of those causes. For anyone who's listening or watching this right now, who maybe they have a cause that they're really passionate about, but they're not really sure how do I take those initial steps and how do I even reach out? What do I say? Who do I reach out to? What would the initial starting point be for that?

Simon Tam:
I think just learning how to show up. First identifying the organizations that perhaps share similar values as you do, and then figuring out how you can just show up as a volunteer, or how you can support their work. Maybe it's beginning with educating yourself about the issues that they work on, perhaps it's getting involved with a fundraiser, or maybe some of the other opportunities that they might have available. That's what we kind of started doing. We started reaching out to other organizations who I thought, "Hey, they're doing some pretty great work." And I would just show up at their office and volunteer by stuffing envelopes, making copies, or helping promote their events. And I just kept showing up again and again, and they realized that I wasn't there just because it seemed like a hot moment to jump on that particular cause, but I was wanting to really be fully vested as a member of the community.

Simon Tam:
And my roles with these organizations grew from the guy who shows up at our events to eventually, in many cases, being on the board of directors, sometimes chairing the organization, helping lead their campaigns, and that sort of thing. I think with artists who just want to get a taste of it, just calling or emailing and just saying, "How can I help you?" is a great way to start. And to also not be dissuaded if the organization doesn't have capacity at the moment to have a volunteer, you can still support them by donating your time and money and energy by getting educated yourself. And then as their capacity grows, maybe they have room for you to step in.

Simon Tam:
And I think it's really important, because the local organizations, they help keep us accountable. Instead of just writing a song about a cause, which I think is important, it's of the process, it's taking that additional step and say, "I'm actually working with somebody to actually bring about that change that I'm passionate about," and to find a way to make it happen.

Michael Walker:
That's awesome. That makes so much sense too, that the way to start out is by figuring out how can you provide value, how you actually align with those causes. And so it sounds like really step number one is making a list of those organizations that you care about that you actually can align with and starting out, not by trying to figure out... Because the way that you described it is a very selfless is probably the right way of putting it, but it's really about focusing on them and how can you provide value and how can you align with the cause, rather than thinking about me, me, me, me, or how is this going to benefit me? Or how can I partner with this? It's more about how can I help and how can I provide value? How can I serve? So, it makes a lot of sense why that would be the best way to start, is really to show up and provide value.

Simon Tam:
The same advice could be applied to any area in the music industry. If you want to get a corporate sponsor, if you're like, "Hey, I want to work with Fender, or Gibson," you don't begin by talking about yourself. You begin by thinking what is the audience that they're trying to reach, and how you can play a role in helping them get there? Or if you are trying to book a show, nobody cares what bands you played in, in high school, or how many years you've been playing the guitar. They want to know can you sell tickets? Can you sell drinks at this event?

Simon Tam:
And if so, as long as you could find a way to get that across and they receive that message, they're going to be much more willing to work with you to give you a shot, even if you've never played there before, or don't have relationships. I think too often we forget that as artists who are being generous to the world by bringing creativity to it, we have value in so many different ways that we can offer other people. And if we do it in a way that other people can see themselves in it, then they're going to be much more likely to work with us and oftentimes surprise us by taking that extra mile and serving us in ways and working with us in ways that we could never even expect. But it begins with demonstrating that value first.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. And you're so right too, that this just is like a life lesson. It's just that when you can focus on providing value and serving, and the more that you can come into different relationships with that in mind, the more counterintuitive. You don't do it because you're trying to do it for yourself, but by doing that, ultimately what you give comes back tenfold. So, it is a really valuable kind of superpower. If you can get into the mindset of thinking, "How can I provide value in the situation?," or, "How can I help? How can I serve?" Even just asking those questions, like you mentioned, how can I help out, I'm trying to figure out what I can do to provide value, it's hard for someone to be closed off when someone genuinely just wants to provide value.

Simon Tam:
And just building a connection. And again, as long as you frame it up in a way that others see themselves in it, like you might yourself think of something as being very valuable. Like, "Hey, I'm going to host this concert and invite this organization," but they might not have the staff to be able to show up and be a part of it, or to promote your concert in that way. But if you ask them, "This is what I have to offer, how can this align with what you're doing? Or how can we use creativity to build something together?" Then oftentimes you'll get results that surprises everybody. An example is for a long time that everyone was trying to get a Tiny Desk Concert and they're submitting it to NPR. They're like, "Oh, pick me, pick me, pick me."

Simon Tam:
And I think Tiny Desk is cool and it's a great platform and all that, but then I started thinking, "Wait, what if I recreated the Tiny Desk Concert concept and did it in a way that doesn't just serve myself?" So, when we were on tour, I started contacting nonprofits that were doing stuff that I thought was really cool. And I was like, "Hey, could we come in there and play in your office? We do a concert, we'll tell people to donate to your organization, we'll give your staff some free merch as a way just to say thank you for the work that they're doing." And it was everything from playing in rescue shelters, like no-kill animal shelters and we'd bring puppies on screen. It was really, really fun. Or to playing at the National Headquarters of the ACLU.

Simon Tam:
And you know what? Those videos oftentimes would garner between 500 and sometimes 750,000 viewers at a time, probably more than you'll ever get from an NPR Tiny Desk submission that you upload to YouTube with how many other artists out there. So, there are ways of doing this that can provide service for others and still find ways for you to support yourself. Because when you're doing that livestream and you're pairing yourself with that organization in a way that you're demonstrating your values align with theirs, their supporters are going to go nuts. They're going to be like, "Wow, there's this incredible artist that's doing work that I care about. Of course I'm going to support them by buying their CD, or showing up to the show, or telling a friend about this experience." And they get to do some good in the world too.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. That alignment is really, really cool. I know that now you spend a lot of your time focused on mentoring artists and helping artists get started. And there's been, especially in the last 10, 20 years across a lot of different domains, but especially in the music industry too, things have changed so radically from the old model of needing record label to distribute your music, to actually having the means and the ability to reach out directly and connect with your fans. So, I'd love to hear you share your perspective on some of the biggest changes, some of the biggest innovations that have happened between the old model and the new model, and what does it take to really build a successful music career as an independent artist now, as opposed to 10 or 20 years ago?

Simon Tam:
I think more than ever it is important for artists to be strategic rather than to be tactical. And it's so easy to think what are the steps, one through 10, of what I can do to become successful? But the reality is the path is going to look different for every artist, depending on who their audience is and what their actual individual goals are. And so I oftentimes tell artists that you have to begin by having a very clear strategic vision for where you want to be. So, if you have a goal, it's got to be specific, it's got to be measurable, it's got to involve some kind of timeline and it's got to be a goal that you use to evaluate everything that you do in your music career. You can't just say, "I want to be a full-time musician." Because what does that mean?

Simon Tam:
What does full-time mean to you? How many hours is that a week working? How much income is that? Or do you mean you're going to teach music at an elementary school, or do vocal coaching lessons, or playing on stage, or write songs for film and TV? All of the above? You have to be able to articulate what it is, so you know what you're working towards. And allowing this much bigger vision that you have for yourself to guide you, because if your goal of being a "full-time musician" just involves you playing music in any capacity, well, then there's a lot of different roles and directions that you can take yourself in, and not necessarily mean you have to try and be the next pop star. You don't have to be the next Beyoncé to be a full-time musician. You can join an orchestra.

Simon Tam:
But it all begins with that vision first. And I think that once artists understand that there's a strategic process, you'll realize that you can do things that buck trends. You're not reliant on somebody's algorithm, or which playlist is hot, or if somebody gives you press or the time of day or not. When you are strategic about it, you can actually navigate the complexities of the industry by being more purposeful in each of your actions and realizing that there are many, many opportunities out there that you can find for yourself that make the most sense for you, and probably uniquely you, in ways that might not make sense for another artist. But if you take advantage of those opportunities, you'll get much more in return than you ever imagined by following a conventional path. My bands made a career playing anime conventions, and later on we played at law schools, inside courtrooms and things like that.

Simon Tam:
If you would've told any of the artists in the world that that would be a viable path, they would think you're crazy. But we got flown all around the world playing these kinds of events and we made it happen for ourselves. I was able to give my musician and crew a living wage, and that could only happen by being strategic and thinking we don't have to do what everyone else is doing. We can do things that are right for ourselves. And because I have a very clear vision of where we want to go and understand that the individual steps might not make sense to someone else, but it aligns with our vision, it aligns with our values. So, it makes perfect sense for us.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. So, it sounds like what you're saying is that the one mistake that artists can make is comparing themselves to everyone else and thinking that there's a cookie cutter approach when really everyone is going to have a different path. And it's important to not just think tactically on the surface, but really have a deeper strategy and to understand what it is for you to get clarity, starting out with what are your goals? So, how does someone start that process of creating measurable goals for themselves and reflecting and figuring out, because there are so many different opportunities, right? So, would you recommend that they just sit down with a notebook and start writing it down, or do you have any thoughts on how someone can figure out what's the right path for them?

Simon Tam:
Whether it's creating art or activism, the process is largely the same in terms of setting goals. I always say begin with the world that you want, and then you work out the steps to get there. So, begin with that notebook. If your goal is to say like, "Hey, in five years I want to be making $10,000 a month with my music," which I don't think is an unreasonable goal, but it seems unreachable for many, many people, because they haven't thought about the process to get there. But let's say your goal is 10K a month, so you can have a six figure income as a musician. That might seem overwhelming at first until you realize, "Oh, you know what, that's $2,500 a week, or it's a little bit over 300 bucks a day." How can you make 300 bucks quickly?

Simon Tam:
It means playing a gig and probably selling a few albums or t-shirts. That can get you there. And if you do that multiplied by 30 times, you're already there. If you get a sync licensing deal, you can probably cut that number in half. So, you start saying like, "Okay, there's different pathways to get there. Now, how do I build my career to a level where I can get a $300 guarantee a night at a club?" Well, that means building an audience in certain geographic locations and being more strategic about that. Each step you start seeing has a different step that can proceed it, but it all begins with understanding where it is you want to go. If you go at it backwards, which is like, "Hey, let's get together. We'll write some songs. Maybe we'll release now, or maybe we'll just release one single at a time on Spotify," which is a trend right now.

Simon Tam:
"And then maybe we'll tour." Where are you going to tour to, and to what end? What's the purpose of that? Then you're not going to be thinking about which markets you want to actually build up over the next five years that can get you there. So, I always begin at the biggest, highest level picture that you can imagine, and then start working out what's a realistic path to get there.

Michael Walker:
All right, let's take a quick break from the podcast so I can tell you about a free special offer we're doing right now exclusively for our podcast listeners. So, if you get a ton of value from the show, but you want to take your music career to the next level, connect with a community of driven musicians and connect with the music mentors directly that we have on this podcast, or if you just want to know the best way to market your music and grow an audience right now, then this is going to be perfect for you.

Michael Walker:
So, right now we're offering a free two week trial to our MusicMentor coaching program. And if you sign up in the show notes below, you're going to get access to our entire MusicMentor content vault for free. The vault is organized into four different content pillars. The first being the music, then the artist, the fans, and last but not least, the business. When you sign up, you unlock our best in-depth master classes from a network of world class musicians and industry experts on the most cutting edge strategies right now for growing your music business. On top of that, you'll get access to our weekly live Masterminds, where our highest level of modern musician coaches teach you exactly what they're doing to make an income and an impact with their music.

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Then once a month, we're going to have our MusicMentor spotlight series. And that's what we're going to bring on some of the world's biggest and best artist coaches and successful musicians to teach you what's working right now. And one of the most amazing parts is that you can get your questions answered live by these top level music mentors. So, a lot of the people that you hear right here on the podcast are there live interacting with you personally. So, imagine being able to connect with them directly. On top of all that, you'll get access to our private MusicMentor community. And this is definitely one of my favorite parts of MusicMentor, and maybe the most valuable, is you're going to have this community where you can network with other artists and link up, collaborate, ask questions, get support, and discuss everything related to your music career.

Michael Walker:
So, if you're curious and you want to take advantage of the free trial, then go click on the link in the show notes right now and sign up for free. From there, you can check out all of the amazing content, connect with the community, and sign up for the live masterclasses that happen every week. This is a gift for listening to our podcast and supporting the show, so don't miss out. Go sign up for free now, and let's get back to our interview.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. That reminds me of Stephen Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, and one of the habits was start with the end in mind. Starting with that vision, starting with the outcome and then kind of reverse engineering it so you can figure out how to get there. One follow up question is I'm curious to hear your take on the process for setting those goals and then adapting as you move towards those.

Michael Walker:
Because, for example, if you have this goal for five or 10 years out and a vision, I'm sure that along the path people make plans and then realize that certain strategies didn't really work as well, certain strategies worked better and things kind of adapt over time. So, I'm wondering what you'd recommend in terms of breaking down the process of once you have a higher vision or a higher goal, do you do a quarterly type of planning, like 90 day projects, or yearly? What's a regular system that you use to move towards those goals?

Simon Tam:
I oftentimes like to break it up between a five year goal, I like to chop it down to an annual goal, and then I will usually have quarterly targets. Am I on track or not? I think in regards to that, there's two things I want to mention. One is to realize that sometimes things take time to grow, and it require a lot more investment up front. So, you might not see that payoff right away. But if you know it's really aligned with your vision and your goal, you should continue persisting. A lot of times we experience what Seth Godin, this great marketing mind, calls the dip. You've got to know if you're in a dip it means something you need to persist or work through and not give up on, because when you come out the other side, you're going to be much more ahead, or if it actually is a failed tactic or path.

Simon Tam:
And so I oftentimes say oftentimes we need to give our goals and give our strategies to get there a chance, and sometimes that means sticking with them probably a little bit longer than we ought to. The other part of that though, the other side of that coin, is that knowing that if it isn't going to be viable in terms of an option, being willing to walk away from it and knowing that it's okay. Sometimes we get so attached to certain tactics, we treat it like, "Oh, I invested all this time and money and energy into this one thing," and we hang onto it needlessly. It's just a sum cost. It means it was a lesson learned.

Simon Tam:
You could thank the universe for the lesson you learned and move on. Don't get hung up on things that don't work. And so we're always going to have to be navigating and trying to balance those two extremes. And I think the more that you do it, the more you develop an intuition of what works or doesn't work. But no matter what, know that it does take time. So, probably you want to give it at least a quarter, but more likely probably at least six to eight months. I mean I oftentimes think about treating it like the gym, no amount of working out that you do today will get you in shape. No one knows how long it takes to get in shape, and it's probably different for every person anyway.

Simon Tam:
But what we do know is that if you consistently show up and work out on a regular basis, that one day you will get in shape and if you maintain it, it actually becomes easier. So, a lot of that is like the goals that we work on for ourselves, they require consistency and they require a lot persistence. And if you give up early, and that means that those gains that you might not have got, that you could have gotten, especially if they're just underneath the surface, that means it's a waste if you give up too early. So, we've got to be constantly evaluating it. Am I showing up? Am I doing the work? And do I have the confidence and the persistence to know that if I persist on this path, it'll help get me closer to my goal? Then if you know that's the right path, keep at it.

Michael Walker:
That's super well articulated. It reminds me of this analogy of planting a seed. So, when you start planting a seed for a tree, if you don't give it time, if you don't nurture it, if you're not patient enough to let it grow, then you can dig it up. You're like, "Why isn't this growing fast?" So, you dig it up and it doesn't grow. So, it really does take nurturing and it takes patience and it is more of a long term, it's a marathon, not necessarily a sprint. And also, I mean it is kind of a paradox too, right? Because like you mentioned, sometimes there's just a strategy. You're never going to find a sunrise if you're moving west.

Michael Walker:
So, sometimes the strategy just doesn't work. So, it sounds like what you'd recommend is really maybe leaning in the direction of giving something a little bit more time than you think that you need in order to really give it a fair chance. And you mentioned that you get better at it over time. You build this intuition for what's working and what's not. When do you actually decide to cut the tactic and say, "Okay, this isn't working. It's like six or eight months afterwards and it's just like no results at all." Or what's your thought around that?

Simon Tam:
I mean it really depends on the tactic itself, but I think that if something's not bearing fruit, then don't continue throwing resources at it if it's been a length of time. Just knowing that some things take longer than others, and so you kind of have to understand what you're getting in into if you are diving into a particular path. And so one way of improving your intuition is having a really, really good sounding board. So, one of the things I recommend to every artist is if you really want to have music as your career, you've got to treat it like a business.

Simon Tam:
And any like decent business has a good cabinet of knowledge by having trusted advisors, either through a board of directors or an advisory group. So, I always say get an advisory group and try and get people who are willing to give you brutal, honest feedback when necessary, try and get people who both work in the music industry, but also people who are successful, who are entrepreneurs, who are outside of the industry, who can give you some objective advice in terms of your own business practices.

Simon Tam:
And so if you have a group of people, even if it's just a few mentors that you can turn to from time to time, who can kind of help steer you, you can develop that intuition a little bit more quickly.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. That's super important. Having the right mentor who can tell you, "Hey, you're on the right path, keep nurturing it." Sometimes it seems like the biggest challenge is really just a mindset thing, where it's just you need shared belief. You need them to be like, "Hey, you've got this. Stay on track. You're moving in the right direction."

Simon Tam:
Yeah. It's so helpful to have a coach. I mean one of the artists that I've been mentoring for the past year and a half probably already knows the answer to every question they ever ask me, but they need somebody else to say the words for them to truly feel it and believe it. And so oftentimes I end up just being more of a counselor, more there for encouragement. And every creative needs that. There's nothing wrong with having help. And oftentimes the people who help you are just more than happy to invest in you in terms of financial investment, in terms of emotional and mental investment, and in terms of giving you their best advice. Learn from other people's failures, learn from other people's successes. They're oftentimes more than happy to do this, because they want to see you succeed.

Simon Tam:
And if you can find those people who can be those coaching and those cheerleaders for you, then by all means bring them on board. I mean I called it a advisory group or board of directors, but I do recommend really treating it like that. So, for my own board or advisory group that I had for my band, I would send them quarterly reports. These are how many shows we played. Here's our income. Here's where we are. Here's press we've received. And I would say, "Here's what I'm planning for the next quarter, and I'd love your feedback and see what you think," and really consider their advice. I did the same thing for any of our like sponsors or endorsement deals.

Simon Tam:
I'm like, "Here's how often your logos are being seen. Here's how many website visits we're getting." And I was constantly saying, "Are these metrics meaningful to you? Do you have any suggestions how we can grow this together?" And it was just really, really helpful for me as somebody who was trying to like navigate these waters, to have other people who were vested in my success also provide that feedback as well.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. And that's great too that you created this structure for you to be able to hold yourself accountable to those metrics that you created to actually measure what you're doing and to be able to actually showcase it to a board of advisors or mentors. I think that in and of itself is so valuable to have tangible, specific numbers that you're looking at that can keep track of. I know that there's been a lot of studies around just how measuring something, just the act of actually keeping track of something, tends to improve the thing significantly even without any conscious intention to do it otherwise. So, along those lines, I'd be curious to hear what are some of the numbers or the metrics, or how might a musician who's early and getting started, start to really measure the things that matter, the things that are really important to their business?

Simon Tam:
Well, I think for them, it depends again on what their goal is, but in terms of broad areas of measurement that I think every musician should be paying attention to is how quickly are you growing your email list? Like direct context that you own. I don't want other people to own my contact. That's why, although I teach a lot of people how to optimize their social media, I'm like at the end of the day that social media has to have a call to action and it's got to lead directly back to your own website. A lot of record labels will take a glance at your social media following, but if you really want to have cards to bring to the table for negotiating, it's having an owned list and saying like, "I have a contact list with permission to email 100,000 people.

Simon Tam:
I have their addresses, phone numbers, ages, demographic information. That has way more power than, "I've got a 100,000 followers on Instagram," which 90% of those followers could be fake, because you can buy followers nowadays. So, knowing that you have a fan base that you intimately know is very, very critical. And the second part of that is, I'm a firm believer and Kevin Kelly's like 1,000 True Fans theory. If you could find 1,000 true fans, that's probably all you need. It's probably more than enough to get you going and to have a sustainable career. And Kevin Kelly defines it as can you find 1,000 people who are willing to spend a hundred bucks on you a year?

Simon Tam:
If so, that's a form of measurement as well. How many fans do I have that are willing to buy everything that I release? Because that's your core base that you're trying to serve. So, moving the needle on that audience is also critical. And then, we want it to be a sustainable income. So, you should be very, very good with your budgeting and accounting. I don't hear nearly enough music business folks talking about this, but helping artists understand how to create a budget, particularly for the business of their music, and then seeing where the income's coming in, where your expenses are, and how you can grow or cut one or the other is going to be really important.

Simon Tam:
It's a skill that takes a long time to develop. But when you're talking about trying to make a sustainable living as an artist, I'm always like, "Well, there's only two ways to make more money. Either you increase your revenues by selling more stuff, or you cut your expenses." So, are there creative ways that you can make some moves and shifting those numbers in any direction? For example, a lot of musicians are like, "Oh, I'm going to move to Nashville," or, "I'm going to move to LA, or Seattle, or New York and that's how I'm going to blow up." I'm like you just named four of the most expensive cities in the country to live in. Why do you need to be there?

Simon Tam:
Can you just move three hours outside any of those cities, cut your expenses in half, and then just play there on a quarterly basis so you're not oversaturating the market? You just cut your expenses. Probably the biggest expense in any musician's budget is going to be living expense. I live in Cincinnati, Ohio, and you could buy a house here for a $100,000 either in the city or just outside the city. That means your mortgage is less than 400 bucks a month, which is probably less than the rent of most people's apartments in any city. I was like, "What if you did that and build your own recording studio and use that as your tour base where you don't have a huge overhead cost?"

Simon Tam:
So, there's a lot of ways to cut at it, but essentially the main point is that we need to be paying attention to those numbers in ways that are much more than just surface level. Whether it is our email list or our budget, the things that we track, we need to be tracking with great detail and a lot more intention than just what it looks like on a spreadsheet.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. You're talking my language right now. I was the weird kid in high school that liked math, and so when it comes to things like the economics and working with those metrics, those numbers, I think that it's super important just to give you clarity and just to know specifically how well things are going. And if you have a team of mentors or advisors that you can really submit things to, you need to know what those numbers are in order for them to have their fingers on the pulse of how things are going. I think this is also why I'm a big fan of paid traffic and building funnels and advertising, is just in terms of the metrics you can really boil everything down to cost per acquisition and value per acquisition.

Michael Walker:
So, how much does it cost for you to acquire an email address from someone? And then how much are you earning per email address that you acquire? And it's just like that's the scale. And like you talked about, the only way to increase your value per acquisition is to offer something more, offer something new, or to reach more people. And it's just this balance, is like the scale between your cost per acquisition, your value per acquisition. So, I think that that's something that all of us as business owners could really leverage, is having a good system for keeping track of those metrics.

Michael Walker:
And at a high level, being able to keep your fingers on the pulse of how much are you spending, versus how much are you earning? And if you don't have that, then it's like searching for your keys in a dark room where there is no light. If you have no light, then you could spend hours or you might never find the keys, but if you just turn on the light, then fairly quickly you can navigate and be like, "Okay, so I need to take these steps here and I'm moving closer. Okay."

Simon Tam:
Yeah. And you know those numbers, and you know them in and out and what they mean. Anybody who can have the ability to significantly shape your career, whether it's through a sponsor or record label deal, or a solid manager, they will give you a much more serious consideration, because they're like, "Oh, this person knows their numbers." Again, you've got to treat it like a business. Imagine if we were running a restaurant and you didn't know how much money you actually made, or how much it cost you to make the most popular menu item you have on the menu, or you didn't know what your plan for the restaurant was in seven months. And you're trying to tell somebody, "Hey, I need a $2 million investment in my business." They would think you're crazy.

Simon Tam:
Any label will do the same thing for you, if you don't know where you're going, if you don't know how much things cost, how much it takes for you to produce an item, or what kind of return on investment that they would be getting from that kind of deal. So, just knowing those numbers are just not only good for you in terms of having a good record and a way to get a better sense of where you are in terms of your career, it's also extremely important if you want anyone to take you seriously enough to give you money to grow your career.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. So, one question to kind of piggyback off of that a little bit with the numbers and knowing, as a business, what are your operating expenses and how much you're earning, obviously one of the biggest challenges or things when it comes to having a successful business, or being a musician that is able to who spend the majority of their days focusing on their music, is figuring out how do I sustain myself? How do I make enough income to actually do this full time?

Michael Walker:
So, I'm wondering if you could share maybe a few different ideas for any musicians listening this right now, who maybe need some creative brainstorming of different income opportunities. Obviously there's, like you talked about before, there's different paths you can take, but what are a few of the biggest opportunities that you see right now for artists to be able to actually sustain themselves full-time?

Simon Tam:
I think right now we have to realize that you're probably not going to make a decent income from streaming. I don't think anybody really thinks of that as a serious consideration. But if you can see streaming or getting a lot of people to check out your music as a means of getting some place else, then you're probably on a better track to do so. So, for those musicians out there who are passionate about performing on the stage, I think that is definitely a huge viable income source that we can pursue, particularly as the world is starting to open up again and there are those opportunities.

Simon Tam:
But I would say be open to playing unconventional stages and opportunities, particularly if you could find a niche or a unique audience that you yourself could tap into because it fits with either who you are, what you're passionate about, or what your music is about. If you could find something that does that like conventions and that sort of thing, then you can really get some pretty substantial wages just from doing that alone. And if you can find that niche market, you can also leverage corporate sponsors, or investors, or other people that do that too. So, if you're very, very passionate about, I don't know, soap, there's like a soap maker convention in this country, believe it or not.

Simon Tam:
And you could partner with soap companies, or find the thing that is unique with you, that what makes you yourself unique that other people can't claim. If it's your story, your lived experience, your song content, or some combination of all those things, figure out what is the audience that's going to resonate with those things the most. And that could be a group, like a unique trade group or convention or something like that, that's a huge opportunity that you can use or leverage to get probably a pretty decent source of money there.

Simon Tam:
So, I think that's one of the big things. If you're not a performing artist and you just want to write songs, or you want to sell your songs to film or television or that sort of thing, there's going to be a different path for that as well. So, also it's important to understand where you want to go, because you don't want to inadvertently choose a path that you don't want to be stuck on. Even if it pays you well, if it ultimately leads to dissatisfaction, or is different than your goals outlined, then you probably are going to be really unhappy if you do it. So, figure out the stuff that you are really, really passionate about, and then think how can I funnel or combine that passion with somebody else's values and passion? And if I could put the two together, then that's a match made in heaven. That's going to provide ample opportunities.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. In my head I'm just imagining now a soap company, aligning with the soap company.

Simon Tam:
Totally creative. I mean so here's the thing, Mike, when I was actively touring, I had partnerships with hotel companies, so we had places to stay on tour. We worked with gasoline companies, so I can get discounts or free fuel for touring. Printing companies, so that we can get our posters made. And also if you go to any other show, live performance in this country, whether it's theater, a musical, or a dance troupe, they're all going to give you programs at the door as audiences are walking in. I was like, "Why aren't we doing this at concerts?"

Simon Tam:
If Cirque du Soleil could do this, I could do this. And I realized most of the people attending didn't care that much about the program, but who really cared were corporate sponsors. So, I'd be like, "Hey, you can get a full page ad if you kick in five grand on this tour. Or 10 grand, you can get a half page feature. We could do an interview and talk about your products and we'll have information about the band, the shows, the album, whatever." But like the program was like a free giveaway that we'd give to audiences, but really it was a vehicle for us to sell sponsorship placements for our investors.

Simon Tam:
So, there are other creative ways of partnering up. And if you could find a way to align with who you are, what you do, whether it's a soap maker... Actually we had a partnership with a laundromat chain, because we wore a lot of suits and vests on our tour. And I was like, "We've got to get this stuff clean." It just made sense, and they were aligned with what we were doing. So, we got a lot of great products and services. We were able to help a lot of small businesses thrive, and everybody made money as a result. Get creative with it. Be as creative with the approach of your business as you are with the creative works, your songs, your album covers and so on, and you'll find that more opportunities will arise and that are available to you than you ever imagined.

Michael Walker:
That's so smart, having the booklets that they can have the sponsors for. And I can say, as someone who toured full time for almost 10 years, I think that more artists could do with some sponsorships with soap companies. But that's great. So, the idea is really to find alignment. And I think that that's just a great example of finding corporate sponsors, finding people who it's a win-win for everyone. To get them in front of people who are going to the shows, but then also for you to find funding for the tours.

Michael Walker:
So, I'm sure that you dive into this even deeper in your mentorship and in the services that you offer for the artists that you work with. But I think that's such a cool opportunity I don't see a lot of people talking about. There's a few people that I know who talk about corporate sponsorships and aligning with these different brands, but I think that's awesome and definitely a great example of being creative and taking that creativity that comes from being an artist and applying it to your business.

Simon Tam:
A lot of people just leave money on the table, because they're afraid of selling out or something like that, or maybe they're just not aware of it. But, man, so many businesses out there are looking for creative ways of reaching people. They're hungry for that. And if you can find a way to create a meaningful relationship, then you can do all kinds of stuff. Don't be afraid to pitch off the wall ideas. We worked at a sake company and I just kept asking, them, "What is it that you actually want to do with your sake company? You're already a pretty big brand," way more reach than we had as a indie dance rock band in Oregon.

Simon Tam:
And they just kept saying how they want to educate people about it, because it was a very niche market for them and how they would be stuck on a wall with all these other brands from Japan, but what they were doing was uniquely different. I was like, "Well, what if we help your bottle stand out?" And so what we ended up coming up with was bottleneck tags. Every single bottle that they had, had a free download of our song and had a little information about our band and our upcoming tour, where they could actually meet us and try the sake at one of our shows.

Simon Tam:
And we did this, it was like 55,000 bottles of sake across North America. Like every Whole Foods store, every like high end liquor wine place. We actually played inside major liquor and wine stores in Texas and we'd do tastings and things like that. And it was a really fun way of getting support for the sake company, but also a way for us to reach new audiences in ways that we never ever would've gotten to do otherwise. And so it's just being willing to just keep throwing ideas. And we threw out a lot of ideas for them, like all the time. And because their marketing team was small and nimble, they were really excited about these ideas.

Simon Tam:
They were like, "Wow, here's someone who wants to help our brand grow." So, year after year, they renewed their investment in us. And we also got a ton of free sake, which is not great for a band on tour, but made for lovely gifts to our families. I mean you can do things, but it just requires a bit of that turning on the brain and being willing to step out what is conventional.

Michael Walker:
That's so cool. And one thing that I'm hearing you say too, is that it's important to find things that you genuinely align with. And, for example, if you're a vegetarian or a vegan, then you wouldn't necessarily try to find a sponsorship with a bacon company. So, it is important to find the ones that you align with that you have a shared message and that you might be undervaluing yourself in the creative value that you can offer to these brands, because it's cool to align with a band, to align with someone, actually to partner with a musician like you. So, that's just awesome.

Michael Walker:
What a great example of leaving... like potential value, that 99% of artists, I think, would never even think of if it wasn't for hearing your story and hearing you share some of those ideas. So, Simon, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today and share some of the lessons that you've learned. And for anyone who's listening or watching this right now who'd like to connect more, hear more about what you offer in terms of mentorship, could you share a little bit about where they can go to connect more?

Simon Tam:
Sure. You can go to simontam.org to learn more about me and my work, or if you're interested, we do a lot of mentorship and funding of artists of color at The Slants Foundation. So, that's theslants.org. But either way, I'm kind of an open book and folks can reach out anytime and I'm always happy to share what I got.

Michael Walker:
Awesome, man. Well, like always we'll throw all the links in the description in the show notes, so you guys have easy access. And thanks, man, this has been a lot of fun.

Simon Tam:
All right. Thank you so much.

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today. And if you want to support the podcast, then there's a few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe then I'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends or on your social media, tag us, that really helps us out. And third, best of all, you leave us an honest review. It's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take their music careers to the next level. It's time to be a Modern Musician now, and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.