Matej Harangozo:
So that's one simple strategy, digital marketing, right? Especially for artists that are not in major music markets. So if you're not in the major town like LA, New York, Nashville, Atlanta, or even Miami, or you're not close to those markets, digital marketing is going to be one of your main tools you can utilize.

Michael Walker:
So easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music, but I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician and slowly getting better. If you have high quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate sustainable income with your music. We're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month, without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution for today's music industry, and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

Michael Walker:
All right. So I'm excited to be here today with Matej Harangozo. He's the owner of Digital Science Media and Indie Artist Accelerator, TEDx talk speaker, and specifically he focuses on helping artists to become successful entrepreneurs. And entrepreneurship is a topic that I'm super passionate about. I think it's one of the most important life skills to develop, especially if you live somewhere that you basically have the freedom to be able to provide value and chart your own life. I think entrepreneurship is really what changes the world. So it's an awesome topic, excited to geek out a little bit today. So Matej thanks so much for taking the time to be here.

Matej Harangozo:
Michael man, thank you for having me on. I appreciate that as well so let's get into it.

Michael Walker:
Start out with, I mean, I'd love to hear just a little bit more about your story and for anyone that's listening this right now, who's never met you before. Could you do a quick introduction about how you guys started on this path?

Matej Harangozo:
Sure. I moved to America when I was almost 12 years old as a young teenager, my father moved us here. Me and my immediate family went to started middle school here in the states, went to high school here, went to college for mechanical engineering. First I went being entrepreneurial since I pretty much moved to United States, I thought I wanted to do business. I took accounting 101, I was like, screw this, I never want to do any [inaudible 00:02:07] science again. Then I got into computer science engineering. That was a little bit boring, even though later on, I taught myself how to develop websites and really get into the software development arena. But I went to school for mechanical engineering. I did drop by my fourth year, so I didn't finish. But I'm very glad that I did go to college because I taught myself how to teach myself essentially. And I'm a big science nerd.

Matej Harangozo:
So statistics, math is an engineering I think is what definitely helped me succeed in business. So after college definitely wanted to start a company. So we got into a bunch of different things with my older business partner we got into real estate first, some tackling acquisition stuff in Baltimore with rehabs and then into real estate. And the economy crashed in '08, which put us into starting a company. So that put us into energy efficiency after the market collides was one of my most successful companies. We did energy audits for commercial buildings, residential things like that. And during that time we got that company from literally [3-0% 00:03:10] credit cards. It was me and two of my partners to close to 60 employees for the company.

Matej Harangozo:
And two years in a row, we did about five and a half million dollars in revenue. Which at that point taught me a lot about building a business and organization, building processes to scale to be able to delegate it when the money was good. And when I had a lot more time to focus on whatever else I wanted to focus on. I wanted to get, I wouldn't say back into the music industry, but always wanted to be in the music industry. Little funny story in high school, one of my side hustles, because I was the foreign kid. There wasn't a citizen, so I couldn't do anything stupid to get in trouble. I used to boot CDs and that was the first kid with the burner. And you know, that would be my little side hustle, so-

Michael Walker:
I used to do that too in middle school.

Matej Harangozo:
Very good. Like I said, when I had a little bit more time to focus on other passions, I got into the music industry with one foot in, one foot out, was a hobbyist producer. I build a studio which I just moved to new commercial building and kind of see it behind me. We still got to put all the outboard gear in there it's missing. But long story short, once I built my studio, I was exposed to a ton of talent here in Maryland. I hired a few engineers and still work with me to this day that started bringing a bunch of artists through the studio. And since I was still focused on my other company, I also wanted to create, everybody wants to have a label. So I was like, let me get a label.

Matej Harangozo:
But I actually invested about 30 to 40 grand with a buddy of mine out of Atlanta into a local artist. My artist JLN, who's still with me to this day, still trying to look for investors at this point and take it to the next level. But through that experience because I was one foot in one foot out, I knew the importance of how much marketing in promo go into getting a talented artist at the next level. I just didn't realize how bad we're going to get scanned in the industry. So that 30 to 40 grand investment was pretty much learning what not to do. Despite the fact that Thailand was there, especially being in the BMV area. This is definitely not a music market from a music infrastructure standpoint. It's definitely a consumer market, but it's not like a New York City or LA or Nashville.

Matej Harangozo:
But anyway, so through that learning that got me all the way to 2016, 2017, where we had to shut down the energy efficiency company. So I decided to start this venture, which became Digital Science Media and the Indie Artist Accelerator. And I got into the music industry full time, created demand for what I was doing for myself, my artists, and a few other producers in the area in terms of marketing, I just started putting everything online. The brands started growing. I started marketing more and that led me to be in the music industry today. And as we shut down the energy efficiency company, because I was always the CT of all, my companies also remain in the software development industry. And I own a company called Codaemon, which is about close to 50 employees that we have now where we build eCommerce platforms or maintain eCommerce platforms for companies.

Matej Harangozo:
Some of our biggest clients are Victoria's Secret, Goodyear, probably the most recognizable companies that you would know of. But anyways, that's how I got here. So half my time is spent on the software development company, which is an eCommerce and half is in the music industry, which I think both they merged together. Because in my opinion, in 2021 and beyond, and this is even back, as far as back as 2010, if you can't figure out as a musician, how to succeed in the digital realm, through streaming selling merchandise, potentially launching platforms like Patreon or what have you just different ways of taking advantage of monetizing your brand is very difficult to become a musician that can live of your brand. So I decided to stick in those two industries because I feel like they have a lot of convergence essentially.

Michael Walker:
Cool man. That's awesome. I love, like you just said the convergence of those two industries, that's one thing. Yeah, I was like the weird kid in high school that liked math. And so when it comes to things like you're talking about software development and even like some of the things like spreadsheets and accounting and analytics like that, I think that's awesome. I'm like, "Oh, this is cool." But one thing that we've been getting into with Modern Musician is building a software as a service and getting into the web development realm. And to, I've just been like, my mind has blown by the opportunities that are available in the software development world. Things like GitHub where there's all this collaboration happening and people are just at a different level of innovation. So I think that you're totally right, that there's this convergence between those two different domains.

Michael Walker:
And there's a big need, I think in the music industry right now to have... We're behind in a lot of ways when it comes to digital marketing and using software tools to be able to build a successful business as a musician. I think it's crazy that Spotify, we have relatively pretty little access to the actual information that comes from our subscriber base. And so I think that there's a lot of really cool things in the software meets music world. So it sounds like you have a lot of experience now working with both your own artists that you've invested into. And then also with Indie Artist Accelerator and working with a lot of different musicians, what would you say are some of the biggest challenges that you notice that artists kind of going through right now when it comes to reaching the next level in their music career?

Matej Harangozo:
Really willing to accept the fact that the music business is made up of two words and more of a major word in that or those two words as business, right? Especially in the initial stages of a musician's career. I think it's difficult to find the balance, but being able to focus on the business is absolute key. Maybe you may have to get that manager or partner up with somebody in the initial stages that would just live and breathe the business. But if you're the musician and you have the music making or production or singing mastered, and it comes more naturally more easier than definitely focus on the business. Because I think that's where a lot of artists, that's the reason they don't succeed. I've seen so much talents come through my studio. So much talent that I work with, but because there's this organization, whether their team, they don't have the right investment or that they don't have the right you strategies they're willing to pursue or the right sacrifices and not treated as a business. I think that's the biggest shortcoming of a lot of artists, you know?

Michael Walker:
Yeah. 100%, yeah. And I think that it's not a coincidence that, there's sort of this like starving artist mentality or there's sort of this I don't know, stigma or negative connotation around selling outs or focusing on the music, focusing on making money like that diminish the creative outlet. And the fact that historically we have struggled as musicians to really have a thriving, sustainable business. So when it comes to focusing on the business or becoming more sustainable, what are some of the biggest buying set blocks or mistakes that you see artists making when it comes to actually building successful business side of it?

Matej Harangozo:
So I think you sort of mentioned it just a second ago is the fact that, artists they accept to be the starving artist, but they're sort of, I don't want to say the word delusional. I feel like that's too strong. They're a little bit naive of thinking how it used to happen. And what they have to realize is that the music industry has evolved. That's actually what my TEDx talk is about. I try to encapsulate the history of the modern music industry from the industrial age all the way today, like how was the industry formed? Why is it a consumer centric industry? And how do labels make money? But the days of just being super talent and getting signed by a label are over, they're super rare. I'm not saying you cannot get signed, just purely being super, super talented, but it has to be something very unique and generally you have to be a young artist.

Matej Harangozo:
That's what I've seen labels. If they come across like a 13 year old, 14 year old kid, maybe 16, that's super talented. Especially if they come from maybe some other Nickelodeon show, things like that. They'll get a deal based on their talent, even though there's already leveraged there because they have an audience, but for anybody that's in their 20s you got to have to create your own buzz. So the question is how do you create the buzz? And I think musicians they start to understand that, okay, that's key. But because I think they don't understand the mechanics of supply and demand or business and don't understand what can be realistic is very easily to get bamboozled and scan online and say, "Well, you just need to get your numbers up." So they don't understand the connection between what does it mean to get numbers up with real human beings, following you and engaging with your brand, so that way later you can monetize your music through merchandise or touring, as opposed to just getting the numbers, even in the perception based marketing way and thinking somehow that's going to catch up.

Matej Harangozo:
So I think in my Indie Artist Accelerator, basically what I teach from day one is business 101, I compare, how does the label compare to something like a McDonald's? Or the Jordan sneaker brand? They have distribution, they have marketing, they have production department. How do you produce a new product? How do you introduce it to the market? And all of that. So the artists tell us like, oh, okay. There's business 101 concepts are not that much different. The music industry. Yes. It's a different nuance. It's a different way to reach the consumer, but you still have to reach the consumer and reaching a fake consumer or just the numbers is not eventually going to catch up to people realizing or thinking that your dope and they're going to follow you, right?

Matej Harangozo:
So I think that's the connection that the artists have to make between the business and the art is just that. And I don't know how else to really translate to artists except, start learning just simple business, because what I've seen, some of the musicians that I had a pleasure to work with, even at the label level, they were entrepreneurial to begin with. And anybody that has an entrepreneurial mindset and has succeeded in other areas and now is getting into music, and they may not be as talented as some purely talented kid that been taking piano lessons his, or her life, that entrepreneurial minded artist is going to accelerate a lot faster from what I've seen, period. So I would ask you, I mean, what do you think it is that you're seeing with your clients and your network, a disconnection between that?

Michael Walker:
Yeah. I mean, 100% do that. I think that the mindset of entrepreneurship in general is just a success mindset. It's about providing value, it's about finding out how to serve at higher level, finding out what's the need and is really about opportunities. So I think that mindset as a musician is hugely beneficial. And just in general, as like a life mindset is really valuable. And in terms of the challenges I see that all the time as well. I think that's one of the biggest mistakes is, vanity metrics or focusing... Because I mean, as a musician, it is, I don't know, it's fragile a little bit. When you release a new song and you have less than a thousand streams on Spotify, it feels like that reflects on who you are and your music and whether you're good enough, it feels like it... So there's this tendency to want to saturate that or to pump it up with fake followers, fake numbers.

Michael Walker:
And like you said, those don't ultimately turn into real people, unless you actually have the right foundation of finding out where do your people congregate and how do you actually connect with them and build relationships. So along those lines, what are some of the different strategies or different things that you see working right now in terms of identifying who are the right people and where do they congregate? Where do they hang out? And actually starting to build those relationships.

Matej Harangozo:
Right. So I think digital marketing has provided us with a tool that is by far the cheapest way on this planet right now to figure out who your fan is just by running what I call small micro psychology experiments through running ads, bunch of variations. You put out a one minute snippet of your music video on Facebook, Instagram, or pretty much any platform you can advertise on. And you just start putting in front of different audience groups with different targeting options. That's not a secret anymore. You can watch YouTube videos and teach you the basics of Facebook ads marketing, and you start seeing how people engage. And I think where artists have to put their business cap on a little bit, is that when they do start getting negative comments is like, take that as feedback. Okay, fine. So you're saying my lyrics, not that great, but the beat was tight. Okay. So maybe I need to improve on that.

Matej Harangozo:
That's the consumer feedback, take that as feedback. So that's one simple strategy, digital marketing, right? Especially for artists that are not in major music market. So if you're not in the major town like LA, New York, Nashville, Atlanta, or even Miami or you're not close to those markets, digital marketing is going to be one of your main tools you can utilize. Then the second thing is networking because connections still absolutely matter in the music industry. If you can develop the right connections, you can accelerate your career. So if you're running ads and going to a bunch of conferences, South by Southwest, ASCAP conference, or, I mean, there's so many now these days you can go to and they also have specific ones for producers and for artists and for vocals and for writers is just plethora of these things.

Matej Harangozo:
Even during COVID, they just all move along, just seek those out, that's another thing. And the third thing is don't give up on the physical marketing aspect, the street teams, always like to give the example of the baby, right in Charlotte. He came up in the digital age, but one of the ways he took over his area, which people don't realize is that they were a little bit excessive. They would put six flyers in the same like light pole in the city. And they just hit the streets. And they knew where certain neighborhoods would've people that would listen to this type of music. And it's the same thing. It's like understand your fan. What do they eat? What do they like? What do they wear? Who they consider that your influence, so these are all things that you can target by.

Matej Harangozo:
But I feel like it's never been easier to figure out where you need to put your product in front of, to people that like it. But I think where a lot of artists get caught up, because this is where a lot of our clients, especially in the accelerator that we can fully support with our full services get caught up. Is that when they get negative comments, they blame the game or they blame the Facebook algorithm and just finding an excuse. And I try to teach them the mindset change, right? Like, no, take that as feedback. This is good. Imagine being an app developer and you put out your first app and you got a bunch of bugs, but the users of the app tell you, "Oh man, this sucks." "This wasn't good." "This could have been way better."

Matej Harangozo:
Okay, awesome. Right, as an app developer, you would go right ahead and fix it and do that. So I'm not saying compromise your artistic expression. I'm not saying that at all, but do take the feedback from the consumers because sometimes artists get back at me and say, "Well, you're telling me to lose the whole, like the feeling of the art." Right? This is where they think like the business compromise it. But no, you don't have to compromise your artistic expression at all, but just figure out which potential fans will like your music. And if they're giving you real feedback and you're not getting any other feedback that you really want anywhere else, then either hang it up or tweak your strategy. I think that's the thing it's like, what are the strategies on digital marketing? It's super easy in the physical sense. It's fairly easy as well, good one.

Matej Harangozo:
If you sound like Taylor Swift go to the next pop artist that comes through your town concert and hand out cars with your QR code on it, to the crowd, be respectful don't get into no trouble. Maybe have a Bluetooth speaker on you whatever. And then see if you get any responses, then check your QR code analytics account next day and see who scanned it. If your numbers went up, it's a simple thing just like any business. If you were selling hot dogs out of a food truck, you wouldn't go to an empty street corner on two highways cross. You'll probably go in front of a commercial building where people are hungry. You may go in front of, I don't know a saturated populated area at lunchtime, right? So it is like that same concept is like, use that to figure out where people listen to music when, why, and target them, see if they like you it once they like it, triple down on that same strategy, potentially keep it moving.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. It's so on point and literally exactly those three things that you just shared are the three main things that we talk about too is we call it virtual tour hacking and hyper networking. But the idea was very similar, like the way that our band got our start was through following different tours around the country and actually walking up to the people in lines and introducing ourselves and sharing some clips of our songs. And we sold 24,000 CDs doing that in about six months.

Matej Harangozo:
Perfect.

Michael Walker:
And because of that, one of the bands we were doing that on was all time low, like one of our favorite bands and millions of fans and gave us the opportunity to open for them on their next tour. So that's an incredible strategy like you just said. Finding out where do people congregate, right? Where do they congregate? They go to live shows and that's where they're in the mode. Their brains are thinking about live shows. That's where the people actually buy tickets to go to live shows or hanging out. So it's definitely a great place to connect with people.

Michael Walker:
Digital marketing too it's amazing tools that we have access to right now with to be able to run ads and look audiences based on your most engaged fans. Super cool. Hyper networking is always just like, that's been a common thing forever, right? It's just connecting with other, finding out who has fans, who would like your music too, and partnering with them, collaborating, going on tour together, writing songs together, releasing a video together. So I think that's all totally on point. And also I love how you focused as well on all of us as artists I think like our music can feel really tender to us, so it's very personal, sometimes it feels like the music is us. It's who we are.

Michael Walker:
And so if someone dislikes it, or someone says that they didn't like part of it, then they're like, "Oh, they don't like me." I think it does take a certain amount of a superpower to almost detach from that. Be like, "Okay, the music is an extension of me, but it's not really who I am." And it's like chipping like an ice block, right? So it's not like you're trying to pretend your someone that you're not, but you're just using that feedback to chip away at your ice block so you can mold it into this beautiful creation based on that feedback.

Matej Harangozo:
No. That's very well said, absolutely. And if I may, I want to give your viewers strategy that they could use or any artist listening because I've actually done this multiple times now in our region took little baggies, that I guess you would put like a eighth of weed in, right? I don't know. I want to make it about drugs. But basically to then we put a regular business card size, something like this big. In there with a $1 bill and the business card was basically my artist with a QR code on the back, just like this thing is. And we walked around the mall multiple times in our Arundel Mills mall in Maryland is one of the biggest malls actually in the country. So we just hit the mall on the weekend. I would walk up to, he's an RnB and rap artists like a Drake.

Matej Harangozo:
So I would walk up to girls randomly and say, "Hey look, my name is Matej. I'm a local label owner. My artist is walking around here somewhere you probably seen him. But look, I would love you guys' support my artist. Just put out a super dope song. We just put out on Friday and I'm going to give you a dollar right now if you purchase it on iTunes or Google play and here it is." And make conversation. What was interesting, the turned out is that a lot of youngins don't even have iTunes. They don't purchase the 99 cents. So this was like two years ago. Something like, okay, fine. I'm still going to give you the dollar, but in front of you, I want you to scan this QR code. I want you to follow my artist on Spotify and Apple Music.

Matej Harangozo:
So we did this for two days in a row during the weekend, we triggered the Apple music algorithm, right? I got on a Apple Music radio station. I forgot which one we definitely got a ton of follow is on Spotify. And if you just do this over and over and over again that's a super easy way to really get some people engaged, right? And then what you ask yourself is, "All right. How much did it cost us to walk around for 45 hours a day, have to buy a lunch, drive to the mall, the gas money, and all that." Let's say it cost us 100, $150. Then you can ask yourself, well for $150, can I create a targeted ad and reach even more people in the same area with just my music video? And can I get a better engagement, right?

Matej Harangozo:
And now you start thinking like a business person and you start tossing both with two different strategies together. But it's like, it can't be any easier, but I agree. It's like you have to have that tenacity or audacity really to get out there and do it, right? And I'm not even the artist I do produce music. So I understand what it's like to be sensitive about your music and art, but it's like at some point you're just going to have to get it out there and trial and error and see what people feel about it.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. That's so good too. I mean, even just through you just sharing what you would say when you walked up to people, that's something that's crafted, I think that's one thing that shouldn't be undervalued is the learnings that you're going to get through communicating, by going up and talking to people, actually having real conversations with people and learning how to pitch yourself and pitch your music just through real organic back and forth. So that's awesome. And I love that strategy too. Actually the dollar bill wrapped around it. And I mean yeah, just even thinking about it, like a digital marketing campaign, right? If you're able to acquire leads for a dollar or less, especially if you're smart about what you have on the backends, you're making more than a dollar back per person that joins your email list for example, then that's like a hugely cost effective strategy to hand out a dollar bill and get someone to actually join your community and follow you and potentially purchase something down the line.

Michael Walker:
I bet you could even do some really cool things with retargeting where if you gave someone the QR code, they want your website, they opted in, then you also could have that targeting audience that just like goes to everyone that you met in person. So you could literally just have these ads that, every single person I met you in person now they're scrolling through their newsfeed on Instagram or Facebook. And then, hey, look who it is, that's you again, a couple days later. And it's your music video that has hundreds of thousands of views. And they're like, "Wow, that's super cool. I met that guy." Really cool.

Matej Harangozo:
Yeah. You pixel that and they're all on area. And guess what then to do your first show, you just retarget all of them. Hopefully you can convert 5% of those people that liked your music and you fill up a small venue of 50 to 75 people. It's a great first successful, thing, even if you got to pay to get them in there for free.

Michael Walker:
All right, let's take a quick break from the podcast. I can tell you about a free, special offer they're doing right now, exclusively for our podcast listeners. So if you get a ton of value from the show, but you want to take your music career to the next level, connect with the community of driven musicians and connect with the music mentors directly that we have on this podcast. Or if you just want to know the best way to market your music and grow an audience right now, then this is going to be perfect for you.

Michael Walker:
So right now we're offering a free two week trial to our music mentor coaching program. And if you sign up in the show notes below, you're going to access to our entire music mentor content vault for free. The vault's organized into four different content pillars. The first being the music, then the artist, the fans, and last but not least the business. When you sign up, you unlock our best in-depth master classes from a network of world class musicians and industry experts on the most cutting edge strategies right now for growing your music business.

Michael Walker:
On top of that, you'll get access to our weekly live masterminds, where our highest level of Modern Musician coaches teach you exactly what they're doing to make an income and an impact with their music. Then once a month, we're going to have our music mentor spotlight series. And that's what we're going to bring on some of the world's biggest and best artist coaches and successful musicians to teach you what's working right now. And one of the most amazing parts is that you can get your questions answered live by these top of music mentors. So a lot of the people that you hear right here on the podcast but they're live interacting with you personally. So imagine being able to connect with them directly.

Michael Walker:
On top of all that you'll get access to our private music mentor community. And this is definitely one of my favorite parts of music mentor and maybe the most valuable is that you're going to have this community where you can network with other artists and link up, collaborate, ask questions, get support, and discuss everything related to your music career. So if you're curious and you want to take advantage of the free trial, then go click on the link in the show notes right now you can sign up for free. From there, you can check out all of the amazing contents connect with the community and sign up for the live master classes that happen every week. This is a gift for listening to our [inaudible 00:27:16] supporting the show. So don't miss it out, go sign up for free now. And let's get back to our interview.

Michael Walker:
Man that is just like a value nugget that just dropped. I think that's that strategy alone that could easily be like a $10,000 strategy for people to actually go and implement that and to sell out a show in their local area. Like a good domino to get started with at least. So, man, I mean, that was so good. I wonder do you happen to have anything else that comes to mind just in terms of like little cool strategies or tactics like that you found that are working? Or I'm also, I mean, I'm always happy to geek out on some of the more the fundamentals and stuff too, but that was super cool.

Matej Harangozo:
Yeah. The Indie's Artist Accelerator program that I have, it's a community where I do live Q&A's and live classes. And it was a way to offer something to independent musicians or artists that can't afford a full fledged digital marketing services. But the class that we have, including labels that do our digital marketing services, we do a step by step. If the artist is brand new we test a bunch of songs, figure out the best performing product. And then we scale the hell out of it. We continue to run ads on that to accumulate as much high quality engagement as possible for the lowest cost in a particular region.

Matej Harangozo:
And we try not to, a lot of artists get bamboozled by marketers because they get them numbers, but they market to India and other countries because it's 10 times cheaper. But come on, you're trying to make your business here because you're not going to be able to tour, right? But what we do is eventually when we market for a while, depends on the marketing budget. We've pixeled enough people through the ads where we start retargeting with different ways of maybe getting their phone numbers, email addresses. Once we have that, then we're able to have our clients do popups through sending out text message through their different apps that we put them on, they can get people [inaudible 00:29:12].

Michael Walker:
When you say popups, do you mean popup shows? Or what exactly?

Matej Harangozo:
Popup shows or even things like, A, I'm going to be at Starbucks on this date, in this city, if you have enough fans signing autographs and just chill with my fans.

Michael Walker:
Cool.

Matej Harangozo:
But yeah. Popup show, we've done the pop ups for the autograph signing or otherwise we would retarget for ticket sales through Eventbrite, or it's more difficult if a venue won't let you get in the backend of their website because then you can't pixel it a little bit more difficult to target and optimize for the conversion of the tickets. But it's like a company growth. I look at every artist like a small enterprise. Because I had so much success in entrepreneurship I look at them like a food truck. What do you need to get going as a food truck in Maryland, you need a license, to get the truck itself.

Matej Harangozo:
I'll probably have to get your first employee and cover their salary for the first three months, right? You're going to have to find the right location, make sure you don't get kicked out by cops and all that. It's the same thing for the artists. We sit down with their team, usually 80% of our clients will have already a manager and investor on board. And we try to map out a three to six month plan. And what I always tell our clients is I'm trying to get you in a position of making real of revenue as soon as possible, right? But they have to have realistic expectations because we're not talking an investment of five to sometimes even $10,000. It's way more than that. But it's realistic if you work with people that know what they're doing, especially if the music works.

Matej Harangozo:
So it's all about put it this way. It is not even a trick or a secret, but anything I do for our clients online, I want to make sure it's recorded somewhere, aka using a pixel or some type of a capturing landing page or a device so we can engage the engagement with iOS 14 right now it's much harder to do that. But with Google Tag Manager, so it's still very possible. So my guys are, we all just get nerdy behind the ad structures. And sometimes we have to add some code to it.

Matej Harangozo:
But really at the end of the day, it's like, identify your consumer. If we know your music works, let's saturate that particular market. And let's put you in a position where you can somehow convert it into revenue. It could be through Patreon for some producers or whatever the case may be. There's different paths to everything. But it's like that strategy, I don't think fails as long as the proper resources are in place, which includes the marketing budget, but also the people on the artist team, right? And I think when you can combine digital marketing with what we talked about, the street team marketing and having either an experienced manager. Or even if not just going to these different events and creating the connections that just puts you in a position to win.

Matej Harangozo:
And I think communicating, now that I've been able to work with major labels and independent artists with solid budgets and I've seen in reality how we've taken something from nothing to position the revenue and I've done them multiple times. It's easier explain to our clients and if they don't believe it or it's too much for them, for me as a business, it's okay to say no as well because we want to work with people that understand or have the right expectations set. But I mean there's so many things I got geek out on with in terms of strategies, like we have specific ways to scale Spotify without using the  third-party playlist.

Matej Harangozo:
I think that's a hot topic. I think we said we would talk about it as well. I pretty much stay away from using third party playlists on Spotify. I'd rather have our artists, whether they're going through the accelerator or our clients trigger the algorithmic playlists on Spotify, through running ads, saturating that URL with the right people that will actually listen to it. And then that builds on itself. You just can't stop that marketing. Some of our clients that have partnership with Sony, Orchard or, invite only distribution platforms, understand how to put forward a marketing strategy.

Matej Harangozo:
So that way, when they release a single and we commit a budget to it, that distribution platform or partnership actually does their job. And they hit up all the major editorial playlists on Spotify and Apple music, or they hit up their connections that Netflix and HBO go for single licensing and all of that. So it's just understanding the resources. Once we understand what's available, what's on board, is it through a label? Is it not? What's available? We have to then set up the strategy, but our expertise in the digital marketing realm, I would say.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. There's a ton of really good stuff in there. And one thing that popped to mind, because I think that this is so important. And this is another one of those fundamental mindset, entrepreneurship mindset, but is around the analogy I think of is planting a seed or planting a seed for a tree. And having, obviously you need to make sure that who you're working with, you can trust, because like you said there are people that you can't trust and people are just going to get fake views or you boost numbers. Or even worse there's nothing at all, it's just literally just complete scam. So you need to make sure that you're working with people that you trust and the way you do that is just by doing what you normally would do, like do your research due diligence, find references, whatnot.

Michael Walker:
But then like having the patience or having the willingness to plant the seed and knowing that it's like, as soon as you plant, it's not like the next day it's going to be this giant tree with fruits, right? You need to really, there's a process to it. There's a process to planting the seed and then nurturing the seed and doing the right things over and over again. And if you keep doing the right things, then it blossoms and it turns into a tree and the fruits come. But it takes a certain amount of being able to seed to the future and in a lot of cases, having a mentor, having guidance, having the faith that if you keep doing the right things the fruit is there. So yeah, I think that's just a really valuable mindset that you shared there.

Matej Harangozo:
It is very difficult to tell a up and coming artist and their manager, if they haven't had much experience that man, not in every case, but nine times out of 10, it will take anywhere from 75 to $200,000 of investment. Doesn't have to be on ads. But whether you have to hire interns or hire PR companies, whatever, to really get artist brand to a position where they can make all that back plus some not in every case, right? And it also doesn't mean you have to do it in six months or four months, it could be a three to four year process, right? You chipped away at $25,000 a year, you divided by months, it's $2,000 a month, whether you split it between your team and your manager. But having somebody like truly believed in how that could come together, it is difficult, right?

Matej Harangozo:
Because there's been so many dreams sold in the industry where people have paid other market or $7500000, I think came out of it. So it comes down to trust and just being transparent, having that past performance, not taking advantage of anybody, nothing you just for a company like mine and yours. I think advantage to be transparent and it may take longer, but I think that's how you build that brand just like an artist. If they stick with it, they have to grab the attention of the consumer and they will build that brand. They just have to continue to get in front of them over and over and over again, not give up. It's going to take mass amounts of numbers to really get to a point where you're some financial benefit out of your craft.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's really well put. And yeah, I think just transparency in general, in most cases is threat move, when you're transparent, especially when it comes to setting expectations and knowing that this is a marathon, it's not necessarily a quick fix kind of thing. Cool. One thing I want to come back to because you talked about it a little bit and my geek senses turned on for a second and I wanted to dig a little bit into it. Was you're talking about pixel data and how with iOS 14, you have to have been a little bit crafty in terms of maybe adding a little bit of custom code or using Google Tag Manager.

Michael Walker:
So when you're talking about that, I've done like a little bit of research on just like different tracking mechanisms that are more effective than using the pixel. So what would you recommend for most people who maybe they aren't tech savvy or super geek when it comes to actually having accurate tracking now. And then what do you guys do in terms of like, what do you recommend for Google Tag's Manager, maybe like server side tracking or what do you guys recommend to really have like solid, accurate tracking?

Matej Harangozo:
Right. So I guess for the beginning artists, if they can at least master Facebook ads or even Google or YouTube ads mainly put in the pixel and all your one pagers or the landing pages, whether it's for a song or your website, whatever. At least have that in there, it'll give you a good enough idea. Like the iPhone users or people that are using iPhones that actually have agreed to enable the privacy featuring iOS 14, that depending on what genre you're in, that can make up anywhere between 35% to 60% [inaudible 00:38:01]. But at least you're getting half the data. And what I remember from statistics, right? The larger pool of sample size you get, 50% of that giving you an accurate representation. You could project to what the other 50% is doing.

Matej Harangozo:
So that's pretty decent, right? That's just for the beginner, just do the basic thing that was taught a year ago before the iOS 14 happened. The iOS 14, my guys are more of expert at this than I at this point, but yes, using the Google Tag Manager with Google Analytics on any landing pages that you're doing conversions on, because it's really given you the behavior of that user, how long they're staying on it, where they're coming from, and anything, that's not an Android device or a PC or whatever is going to be a iOS 14 device. So you'll still see that traffic, you're just blind to seeing exactly what device it's coming from, but we could just all assume that it's going to be mainly iPhones, not as much iPads per se.

Matej Harangozo:
And then we just crunch our own data in Google Sheets, and do the same projections we used to do, but there's different campaigns, right. There's the conversion campaigns, we have branding campaigns that just simply track the conversion of people visiting your Instagram profile and then converting into followers, which is much easier. You don't really care where it's coming from because each profile visit is still tracked by Instagram itself. But yeah, on that more nerd year level, it's the URL parameters correctly put together inside of a page that is flexible to change with that code. Whether it's [Tonedin 00:39:35] or ClickFunnels or your own Shopify website or your own webpage builder track it as properly as possible. You need to be able to embed those URL parameters in there from my understanding, and then we've even had a platform like, what's it called, ?

Matej Harangozo:
You know, the print tracking, it does a better job because right now for any campaign we're running on Facebook that is dealing with conversions. Usually the numbers are either half completely, half of they're either twice as many conversions or half as many, right? Which it's good when it's divisible that easily. It's much harder when it's not as easy to crack the code, but I don't think it's going to affect, I don't know, hasn't really that our campaigns as much, except right now is the holiday season. So everything is going up in price maybe by a factor of two or three, depending on which country you're targeting. But yeah, it's, I guess, to battle that iOS 14 change. You have to become a little bit more of a coder as well, right? But really just based the engaged [inaudible 00:40:37] stuff to make sure it's tracked properly.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. For sure. It seems like that's almost like a benefit and it is interesting how this works. I mean, talking about entrepreneurship, right? But how sometimes the challenges or the bad things that happen or things that, for example, iOS 14 is actually focused, at least for us it's focus has become smarter when it comes to the way that we track things. So it's actually even better than it was before iOS 14, because we've had to get smarter about server based tracking and like things on that are more geeky and analytical. But I also think that there's probably a greater need for those types of trackings services. So I think that there's a lot of tools that are starting to integrate with Facebook's conversion, API and doing things on the back end.

Michael Walker:
And it does seem just like a game of cat and mouse, like Apple and Facebook and they're going back and forth and while we're geeking out, maybe we could talk a little bit just about your thoughts in general, when it comes to like, I don't know, privacy or data collection. And what do you think is coming? Obviously this is a hot topic, especially with Apple's taking pretty firm stand. They always have when it comes to privacy and not being tracked.

Michael Walker:
I think that one thing that's pretty commonly overlooked is the personalization and the relevancy that comes from being tracked and how it's actually a benefit for us. I personally would much rather not see any ads for tampons. I would rather see ads for video games or for music or things that I care about, which happens if based on advertising knowing more about me and what I'm interested in. So there are pros and cons. And I think it's easy to not focus on some of the benefits that we get from that personalization, but I'm kind of rambling. But I would love to hear your thoughts about just data collection overall. And what do you think is the right path moving forward?

Matej Harangozo:
No. I mean, you touched on a lot of topics that I think about every day, especially from the world that I come from, from communism. And I'm going to say why I relay those two things because, I don't know, I'm definitely a capitalist in terms of loving living in America and having all these opportunities and tracking is important for eCommerce and for business to understand their consumers better. The example you gave with like, let's not give people ads with tampons or diapers that are not parents or are interested in that product for what? Right? But then selling products is not the only thing that social media can do to our minds because once you start targeting the psychology archetypes or the profiles of people, you can start changing ideologies, and brainwash people, right?

Matej Harangozo:
And you can, especially younger audiences that haven't been through college educated, or when you understand science or what to believe, what not to believe the algorithms really do feed you, the stuff that you like that promotes you being either happy or angry. We just found this out from Facebook having that whistleblower, right? Which could be very dangerous because I'm also a history nerd. And when you think about what Stalin and Hitler and all of them did through their communication channels of their time through radio and things like that, they use propaganda and they brainwash people with certain messaging. And that's where I worry. So how do you battle that through social media? It's an interesting topic. I think what's going to happen is that we're going to have the public channels or the public side of Facebook, maybe like your ABC channel where FCCS involved and you can't. I have shows that you're cursing on them where explicit viewership or nudity, things like that.

Matej Harangozo:
And then you have your HBOs and your paid network where you can broadcast whatever the hell you want. So I'm not saying this is a prediction, but I wouldn't be surprised if in five years we have the free and the premium. We already have premium, like for YouTube, right? With ads being gone and things like that. So I think there's going to be more of that happening, as a marketer, as a business owner, it does suck that they're making it more difficult with the privacy.

Matej Harangozo:
But it's difficult to regulate. It's like a huge open topic. It's yet to be seen What's going to happen in the next five to 10 years. We already know that Facebook proclaim that basically. Okay. If Congress, if you're going to pick on us telling us we can't self-govern and use the algorithm the right way, so we don't affect young minds and ideologies and whatnot, that we're just going to help you create regulation that affects all the social media marketing companies. So they're not treated as technology companies, but maybe now they're going to be treated as a media company, which now they're going to be like CNN or Fox News, or just ABC, TBS or your regular networks.

Matej Harangozo:
And again, what happened with that world? That's why HBOs and Netflix is popular and you have to pay for that. So I think it's up to the consumer. They're going to pay for that premium experience. And then for us as marketers or businesses or artists and producers, you have to decide how can you get people in the public realm, the right way, going to have marketing and content design for that side of things. And then, your original content that you want people to experience is going to have to be through these pay channels or through your private channels, like a patriotic kind of whatever the case, maybe.

Matej Harangozo:
Even now running ads, you can't run explicit songs, you can get away with it here and there, but technically if you want to have you add a good standing, you still got to clean up your content. So I do think about it a lot. I think we're in an interesting crossroads and the reason I created the accelerator, one of my pet peeves about the United States, like a good pet peeve is the education system. The universities are phenomenal and well funded, but the public education is not as great. And that's where it worries me is that if we entrepreneurs, don't also help educate the youth the right way with the right information, what can social media do to them in a negative way? Because they're being pushed content that is maybe not true, but it's just being catered it to them based on the algorithm.

Matej Harangozo:
It doesn't have to be an ad that's being served to them. It's just simply the way the algorithm works. So I think we're living in very interesting times and I just hope that, if I think me and you both teach this to all the people in our circle is educate yourself and better yourself. And I think if people become obsessed in a healthy way of improving themselves in learning constantly, I think they're better prepared to battle the negative side effects of social media ads or the algorithms, if you want to call it that. And I think Apple is a one of the biggest companies in the world, again they're a for-profit company. So them hiding the privacy information from Facebook. I'm wondering if that's a competitive move and I'm wondering if it a year from now, next thing we know, oh, Apple ads, where did that come from? And now you get to target people on Apple specifically.

Michael Walker:
Right. Yeah. There's got to be at least some component to that, right? I mean, even if it's not like a purely competitive move, at least in terms of branding or positioning for the future with wearables and biotech, certainly when we're talking about putting devices in our bodies and Neuralink, brain interface cases, trust is so important in regulation. And so I think that there probably is a play that they're making in terms of just wanting to be established and branded as the people who care most about your privacy, that you can trust with it, which might come into it. Because I mean yeah, certainly like, like all these things would be amplified to another level if we're talking about brain and interfaces that can interface with our thoughts.

Matej Harangozo:
What do you think about NFTs Michael for

Michael Walker:
I think NFTs. So recently one of my mentors and someone that I've really respected, like one of the most successful people I know really doubled down on NFTs and told me he was basically convinced that they're the biggest to happen in the music industry since the invention of the iTune Store. So I've heard the rumblings of NFTs. And that was really when I started to take them more seriously and look into them. So I think they're a huge opportunity, especially for musicians where historically, he hasn't met a good way to sell a song the same way that you would sell the Mona Lisa for 800 million, you can buy the Mona Lisa. But you can't buy, Let It Be by The Beatles for 800 million. So I think it's a really cool opportunity.

Matej Harangozo:
Yeah. I think I see it two ways kind of what you're saying. I see that NFTs will definitely change the infrastructure of music for being able to track licensing copyrights, and turning a song into a tradable digital asset, like a stock market. I think that's awesome because artists will be able to potentially fund their careers doing a Kickstarter campaign and maybe having their artists invest into their NFT, which the consumer, the fans own 40% of it. And if it properly tracks not, has to be able to track Apple Music numbers, Spotify and all of that to reflect the revenue, generation of that. I think that's awesome. This whole thing, like buying the NFT, maybe I'm too old, but owning a digital asset. I bought the MNM NFT. I bought the Weeknd NFT, I bought the Tory Lanez album and all that.

Matej Harangozo:
And I feel like they were small attention bubbles. I lost money in all of them. Maybe if you would've, if I would've sold my NFT, the first three days it was out, I might have made $100 on it. Now I definitely lost half. I bought one of those wiggling figures for $300. And now I can't even [inaudible 00:50:04] 50, it was like $313. So I think that can NFT become the MP3 or the new way to of music? Sure. Maybe in 10 years if the consumer adoption happens, but then it doesn't change anything to the artist. It's because it's going to be the same thing like, artists are like, "Oh, I got to create an NFT, because I'm going to make money off it." I'm like, "Well, you put your songs on Spotify, Apple Music, and you haven't even figured out how to get people in front of that and monetize that yet." How do you think you're going to monetize the NFT? You still got to have-

Matej Harangozo:
...a stand. You still got to get people who want your NFT. Are there people out there in the underground, NFT geek world, they'll just be like, "Oh, another great NFT. I love the image. Let me just support you and buy." Sure. But in the long run, they got to be your fans if you want to capitalize on a NFT version of your song. Because otherwise they're going to just grab it on Spotify. What happened with Tory Lanez NFT? Okay. He sold a million copies. It was great for him. It was great for the platform E-NFT, which I believe is owned by FlowRider. And there was a way for them to advertise that platform by bringing Tory Lanez brand on there.

Matej Harangozo:
But at the end of the day that album got leaked, it was all over SoundCloud and YouTube. So for the consumer, why I have to go to a website, we have to figure out how to sign up, how to consume this file through a browser, which is all clunky and is not there yet, as opposed to going to your SoundCloud app, which you've been using for the last decade, you know how to use SoundCloud or YouTube and still find it, right? So to me it's always a consumer adoption. It's like, why are artists able to benefit from being on Spotify and Apple Music? Well, because that's where the fans go. And these companies have spent billions on the artist we have to make it the thing they use. Why do most consumers either have Spotify, Apple Music or Amazon Music except Spotify that's the only thing they do.

Matej Harangozo:
But Amazon and Apple they're then, trillion dollar companies. And they're just having fun with it. Like the Apple Music platform and the Amazon MP3 platform. That's like just a fun project almost. Or they can put as much money as they want into it and gather more and more consumers, but that's what I think artists have to think about. It's like, okay, it doesn't matter if it's NFT an MP3, a way file, a flag file, MP4 file in the private, your own little monthly platform that you charge for whatever it is. It's like, do you have the fans that are interested in buying what you're selling? But I think-

Michael Walker:
100%

Matej Harangozo:
...infrastructure standpoint is huge. It's here to stay and I'm excited for the infrastructure side of it.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. I agree 100% I think, I mean, it's such a trendy, thing that's happening right now. If you look at how ridiculous some of the NFT prices are for crypto punks and things like that, it's just it's mind boggling. But yeah, I think you're right. That one, it doesn't replace the fundamental, parts of having successful business, needing an audience, needing people actually to have demand for NFTs, just because you have the NFT doesn't mean that people are going to buy this. And I think that they still need to find their place too. When it comes to streaming your song, streaming your music then yeah. Those platforms like that's going to be where people go to stream like NFTs, I don't think there's going to be a marketplace.

Michael Walker:
I mean, I could be wrong, but I don't think that there's going to be a new marketplace that uses streaming NFTs as the new way to monetize streaming. But I do think that, and we'll see what happens it's such a early, it's like the wild west kind of. But I do think there's a bubble around it. It's sort of like the internet, there's an internet bubble. And internet, obviously there's like huge game changing everything, but there's also a big bubble around it and it popped. And I think there's a lot of hype around NFTs and so you're managing ups and downs that go with people's expectations. But I do think that the same, for me, a question that was hard for me to grapple my mind around, it was like, why would someone spend this much money for just this digital especially an NFT of a song, that's just like, you could just stream the song, what is it about owning this NFT? Why would you spend hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars to own something like this?

Michael Walker:
And yeah I got thinking about it and I think the best analogy for me to help me understand it, is thinking about people who buy really expensive artwork. I'm not that person who buys 100 million pieces of artwork, or 800 million pieces of artwork, but there's people that just they're on another level. They just have so much money that, they will invest in pieces of artwork just for on ownership, status, be able to showcase it-

Matej Harangozo:
Bragging rights.

Michael Walker:
Bragging rights.

Matej Harangozo:
The same people that everyone, they sold, those $10,000 gold iPhone cases and Paris Hilton had one or whatever. It's like who the hell would buy 10,000? The thing is worth there's 400 times more than your phone. Why would you buy?

Michael Walker:
Right.

Matej Harangozo:
I feel like, but again maybe what I love seeing, is how evolution of these different products happen, because I wonder what the kids in high school think. When I was 17, when I was on the forefront of I used to be really big in the street racing or selling CDs. I used to build computers. I was very passionate about that. I had the first CD burner, I always try to get the best CD burner possible. Then put the MP3s on the DVD disc, all that, some of these technologies faded off some change the industry, like the MP3 completely revolutionized it.

Matej Harangozo:
So it's like, I think you have to look at what is the 17-year-old thinking today because they're the artist consumer for the next 10 years and they're going to be the market that determines how this is consumed, right? But I'm with you. I think same generations are just never going to understand how a digital piece of anything where it could be easily copied and you can just get it on Google Images. How well would you pay a million dollars for that? Like that guy that bought what's his name, Jack Dorsey's first tweet. It's like because you got to be that rich. So when you walk into his house and he's got the 100 inch, flat screen TVs, like see that's about that, that's mine and there's the hex code that represents that original thing. Okay, great buddy. You know?

Michael Walker:
Right. Yeah. For sure.

Matej Harangozo:
Bragging, right. You have that money to do it. So it is very interesting. What I'm excited about is the metaverse thing because again, to me I'm not big into playing video games or things like that, but certainly millions of kids are. And it's even affecting NFL numbers it's been shown that NFL like Super Bowl time consumption has been fading off even though they track streaming of it and through platforms and I'm like, well, where's that attention going? It's going into video games, right? There's kids now that would rather watch a gamer on Twitch, play NFL with his own dream team, as opposed to watching a real NFL game to where I think the NFTS are going. If you have these virtual goggles on and you have this new trendy, Kanye where virtual digital jacket, even as crazy as it's sounds people will one way or another pay money for it because they're going to make them feel happy.

Matej Harangozo:
I think in my opinion, it's a sad world that we may be leading towards, that people are going to be stuck in these virtual worlds. That's just my opinion. But it's like if you're in business, do you adapt to it? Or maybe, as a business person you can, or artist, you can take the other side. And I bet you in 20 years, artists that take the side of just, I'm a real human being come interact with me in person. They're going to have their own niche and there's going to be artists that are going to be completely virtual.

Matej Harangozo:
There's AI, that's making songs already that are putting it on Spotify. That's not a thing I think. I think just like there is a movie character or a grand theft auto character in the game. I also think in 15 years there may be a completely digitally created artist and it's going to be one of the biggest digital artists out there. And it's not a real human being. It's somebody's pulling the strength, somebody's coding that somebody's creating that experience, but there may be fans of that it's crazy to think, but I think we're headed that way.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. Dude, I think you're right. I mean, with artificial intelligence and I mean this is really timely. Right now I'm reading The Age of Spiritual Machines by Ray Kurzweil and he's a big, I mean, it's a awesome book. I think he wrote it like 1999 and he's talking about 2020 and how the world's going to change. And it's pretty fascinating, seeing the predictions that he made and how, I mean, the majority of them are actually true. And in some cases they're close to being true, but they're not quite there. But it's remarkable that you had the foresight to predict some of these things. And he also makes some predictions for the next 10, 20 years. And he has a book called The Singularity is Nearer that's about all this kind of stuff and AI, and the exponential, growth of information based technologies and really fascinating.

Michael Walker:
And yeah, I think one of the points that he made was about art in general and how intelligence, like that's really one of the mind boggling things is like, what is intelligence, right? Like what is, I mean, [inaudible 00:59:10] human intelligence and yeah, you could go into what is consciousness overall? Maybe there's another word for intelligence. But then specifically with machines, there's artificial intelligence, right? And right now, and for a long time, artificial intelligence has been very artificial, been very, I don't know, it's robotic, but also it lacks a certain aspect of human intelligence, which human intelligence gives its intelligence.

Michael Walker:
Like why, we're to communicate with each other and have feelings and emotions. And his point is that, in the next 30 to 50 years that artificial intelligence is probably going to reach a point where they've been able to reconstruct the human brain to a point where machines can emulate human intelligence to a point where it's indistinguishable that it's going to feel like they have consciousness or have awareness. And who are we to say that they don't that we're not just really complex machines. We could totally go down a big rabbit hole here and geek out about. There's an immaterial soul or is there something, but man, I think that we're going to have to take a rain check and hopefully continue the conversation at some point, because this is super fun stuff to talk about.

Matej Harangozo:
I'm down. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah. Thank you for having me on, I think artists have awesome things to look forward to and just don't give up because there's going to be more and more artists. It's probably one of the most saturated industries I've ever been in. But a thing is also in 2021 and beyond, it's never been easier to do it the right way, I feel like. And just my advice for it is, is realizing we're in the attention economy. So you have to figure out how to grab your fan's attention. Because if you don't figure it out, somebody else is going to do it. Whether you're sad or angry about the fact, oh, I'm talented by nobody else to hear me. Well, you got to figure out how to have them hear you. Somebody else will figure it out. It's just as talented as you are, you know? But I think it's an exciting time. I love living in this day and age.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. Cool man. Well, yeah I super appreciate you coming on here and sharing some of the lessons that you've learned and anytime I get to geek out of, like this is a win for sure. So for anyone who is listening or watching this right now, who would like to connect more? Could you talk a little bit about, I know you have Indie Artist Accelerator and then you also work with a limited number of clients directly as well. What's the next step for someone, if they want to connect more with you?

Matej Harangozo:
I would say go to digitalsciencemedia.com or follow me on Instagram, which is matej_h_entrepreneur. Matej is spelled M-A-T-E-J and if you DM me, either me or my assistant will catch the message depending on how you approach me. We can figure out if we can help you one way or another, but digitalsceincemedia.com has all the information, all of our services, the Indie Artist Accelerator is there as well, if somebody wants to join yeah. And yeah, that's probably the best two ways. I don't want to overcomplicate it. I feel like my name's already complicated enough to, so it's not as easy to find me, but if you just type an M-A-T-E-J on Instagram, I should pop up.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Yeah. Then what we'll do too is normal. We'll include all the links in the show notes. So if anyone just clicks on the description, then be able to find all the links and have easy access.

Matej Harangozo:
Awesome.

Michael Walker:
Cool. All right. Well, thanks man. This has been a lot of fun.

Matej Harangozo:
Definitely Michael, Thank you for having me on. I appreciate it.

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Michael here. Hope that you got a ton of value at its episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about their guests today. And if you want to support the podcast, then there's a few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe, then I'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends on your social media tag us after that really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take the music careers to the next level. It's time to be a Modern Musician now. And I look forward to on our next episode.