Gabe Shillinger:
They put on that t-shirt and it changes their identity, they're a part of your tribe, they're part of your brand. And so when you put in that foundation, you put in the time to build that brand and that connection, now, all of a sudden, that merchandise, those experiences, those things that you're creating, again, it's not just slapping your logo on something and sending it out, it's actually changing who that person is by interacting with that thing. And now, that's where a lot of that value comes from.

Michael Walker:
It's easy to get lost in today's music industry, with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician, and it's only getting better. If you have high quality music but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

Michael Walker:
All right. I'm super excited to be here today with Gabe Shillinger. Dave is the CEO, producer, and engineer behind Legion Beats, which offers quality beats and hooks, mixing and mastering a promo. They've worked with artists like Kendrick Lamar, 2 Chainz, Snoop Dogg, and a lot more. And specifically, they're focused on really supporting artists and the new music industry and selling beats online. And today, I thought it would be really great to dive into the landscape right now as the music industry has changed so much over the 20, 30 years ago with the rise of the internet. And right now, there's still a lot of things that are evolving and changing, we're all learning as we go.

Michael Walker:
So I thought it would just be great to open up and have a conversation about the current state of the music industry, what's changed from the past 10, 20 years, and where we imagine it going the next 10, 20 years from now. So Gabe, thanks so much for taking the time to be here today.

Gabe Shillinger:
Michael, man, I appreciate you having me on. I love what you're doing and the way that you're pushing the industry forward, it inspires me. And so, I'm excited to get a chance to geek out on some music and some marketing stuff and see what your thoughts are. Yeah, happy to contribute to the conversation.

Michael Walker:
Heck yeah, man, I'm definitely excited to dig into it and geek out. Let's start out with, I know that you've worked really hands-on and personally with a lot of music artists at this point, and you probably see a lot of the same patterns and challenges and mistakes coming up, especially in regards to this topic that we're talking about with the new music industry versus the old music industry. What do you think are some of the biggest mistakes that the artists are making right now?

Gabe Shillinger:
Well, I can just say from my experience, the biggest mistake that I was making for a long time was just focusing on the music, just the creative side. So just for me being a producer and an engineer and just thinking, "Okay, as long as I get good enough at my craft of producing and engineering, then I'm going to be okay. Somebody is going to come save me, a manager, a label, somebody's going to come find me, they're going to save me, and then everything's going to be great." I think we both know that that's not really how it works. And so I spent a long time doing that and working on my craft and getting to hang out in the studio and stuff like that, and it was cool.

Gabe Shillinger:
But it wasn't until I started to actually learn and really embrace the business, the marketing side of things, that things really turned around for me and I started to really have fun again, and started to actually be able to make money doing what I love doing, music. And then realizing that the marketing, the business side of things is not only something that I could actually be good at, which I never thought that before. I was a musician, basically. I was an artist, producer, engineer, not somebody who's a business owner or a marketer or anything like that. But once I started actually learning about some of the cool new marketing stuff and started actually applying to my music, then it completely shifted my perspective. And all of a sudden, it was like, "Oh, this stuff is actually fun. You can actually be creative doing this stuff."

Gabe Shillinger:
It was time for me to not just put all of my energy, my creativity, my passion, my time, everything into my music, but put it into that other side of things, the marketing, the business, and that's when things really took off for me. And when I've been working with other producers and artists and stuff, that's, to me, the biggest thing, is that mindset shift of not thinking, "Oh, all the business and marketing stuff sucks, it's boring. Somebody else is going to do it for me." But instead be like, "Oh no, this is another outlet for my creativity. And once I look at it that way, that's when things can really take off and I can actually make a great living and actually make an impact in the world doing what I want to be doing."

Michael Walker:
That's awesome, man. Yeah, such a big breakthrough too, I think, to realize that as a creator, as an artist, as a musician, that the business side of things isn't necessarily something that's separate from who you are or separate from your artist identity, or you have to like sell out in order to be successful with your marketing, with your business. I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about that, because that's something that I feel like comes up quite a bit, especially for artists, is this feeling of not wanting to sacrifice their integrity or themselves as an artist or feeling like maybe focusing on making money or focusing on the business side of it is somehow at odds with their artist identity.

Michael Walker:
Could you talk a little bit about that? How can someone overcome that? Or, how do you view someone, an artist being authentic and being able to merge that with their business?

Gabe Shillinger:
Yeah. I think there's a few things. One is, if you love music enough that you want to do it full-time, then you better figure out how to make some money doing it, otherwise, you're going to have to have a job and then you do music in your spare time. And then if that's how you want to do it, then cool, that's it's own thing. But if it is something you want to do full-time, then yeah, that's the reality. You've got to figure out how to make some money doing it. So that's one thing. Also, not to get too philosophical about art or whatever, and everybody has their own definition, but if you're only making art for yourself and nobody else likes it, then I don't know, then maybe you are just doing a hobby, maybe that is just a hobby. And that's cool and you should have a day job and make the music.

Gabe Shillinger:
But if you are making art for the world, then embrace that, and you know, "Okay, part of what I'm doing here is to take my fan, my customer on this experience, whether it's an emotional experience or whatever it is, and that's part of my job. And that's from the music itself and it's also from the experience they have interacting with me and my brand. That's my job, that's what I'm going to do and I'm going to embrace that." And then I think the other thing is what I mentioned before, is that, you see all this creativity and passion and excitement go into our music. And then you see the exact same artist or producer or whatever, it's time to now promote that, and there is zero creativity. They're doing the exact same thing everybody else is doing. They don't care. They're not doing anything exciting.

Gabe Shillinger:
It's just another opportunity for you to express that creativity. It's not, "Oh, how can I trick people into giving me their money?" No, it's, "How can I create enough value to my customer, to my fan base, that they actually are happy to give me money because I've created this experience or a product or service, or whatever it is?" And embracing that journey, embracing the creativity of that and using that, knowing that, "I'm not just somebody who makes beats, I'm somebody who creates a whole experience, and yes, that includes the emails I send out and the content that I create and the things that I sell. All of that is part of me as an artist or a brand. It's not just putting out music."

Michael Walker:
That's so good. One key thing that just stuck out about what you said too, it was really about the shift from focusing on me, me, me, and like, "Oh, my artwork," and shifting it to focus on like, "How can I contribute or how can I provide value to other people?" And it seems like that's really the core of having a successful business and really just being a happy human, I think, is really focusing on that question, "How can I actually serve and contribute at the highest level." And there's a magic switch that happens when that's the question you start asking yourself, instead of maybe, "What can I get out of this?" But more like, "How can I contribute and how can I provide more value in this situation?"

Michael Walker:
So I really love the way that you expressed that. Obviously, there's certain things that are commercial things or things that are trending or things where there's just like a global wave that's happening. It's almost like we're surfers and I feel like we swim along with a certain wave, you might catch it and get a big boost of momentum. And so there's definitely things like that. So I'm wondering when it comes to... I think that one, I don't know if paradox is the right word, but one place of conflict sometimes that people come into is wanting to be able to plug into those existing waves and to feel the commercial side of things, but also being afraid of losing their own sense of identity or their own sense of who they are.

Michael Walker:
They don't want to just forget that... Maybe they have a certain style of music that they really enjoy making, but that's not part of that wave that's happening right now. So I guess I'm curious, what are your thoughts on riding that wave? At what level of balance do you think that people find... Do you think it's really just all about like, well, it's not really about you at all, just find the wave and plug in, and that's how you provide value or is it, find a way to merge with the wave? What are your thoughts on that?

Gabe Shillinger:
Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know. I guess there's two sides to it in a way. One extreme would be, "Okay, I make a whatever genre of music, but what I think is popular right now is this completely different genre that I hate, so I'm just going to grit my teeth and try to make my stupid version of this song or this type of music that I think is stupid." And I think we can probably all agree that that's not really going to work out great for anybody. You're probably not going to do a good job at creating that other genre of music, let's say. And then there's where the other end of it, of like, "Well, I'm just going to completely, again, ignore what everybody else wants to hear, and I'm just making my art purely for myself. And I don't care if anybody else in the world likes it."

Gabe Shillinger:
So probably somewhere in the middle is where you've got to find that spot. But I would say that there's different ways to approach that. Even on just talking about content like on social media, like on TikTok, they'll have these trends where it's some kind of almost like meme, but then it's like, "How do I do my version of that?" And to me, it's like a microcosm of what I was talking about with marketing, where it's like, "Okay, well, if maybe this one looks interesting to me, let me figure out, how can I plug my creativity, my uniqueness into this thing. And that way, it is riding this wave of something that happens to be popular right now, but I'm doing my version of it."

Gabe Shillinger:
And a lot of time, the more parameters you have around what you can do, the more creative you have to be. There's a good quote about that that's not quite coming to mind, but it's something like... I can't remember. But basically like, the more limits you have, the more you're tied into like, well, you can only use these three notes on this one instrument. Well, then it's going to force you to be a lot more creative than you have access to every instrument in the world. So I think that that's a way to approach that. It's like, "Okay, well, what is trending right now? What is popular right now? Now, within those parameters, how can I be unique and put my voice to that in a way that now it's relevant, because people are like, 'Oh, cool. He flipped that whatever thing that we're all talking about, but the way he did it is really unique."

Gabe Shillinger:
So I think that that's one way to look at that, is how could you fit your voice, your style, your genre, your truth into what is a trending or what people are interested in at this time.

Michael Walker:
I love that. Yeah, that's so good. The visual that came into mind as you were describing that too, maybe this is because I'm really geeking out lately on the software development world and we're getting ready to launch our software as a service and learn about things like GitHub, I'm like, "Man, this is cool." But part of the way that that works is that there's these branches, kind of like a tree, you have a root, branch, and then you have all these different little tentacles that branch off from the root. And so it sounds like one way of visually describing what you're talking about is almost like the way our brain works.

Michael Walker:
When you look at the way our neurons connect, we have these thick branches. And then if you branch off of those and do something in your own unique way, that's a good way to both marry the existing movement to really what's connecting right now, what's the movement that's happening right now, along with doing it in your own unique way and bringing the thing that makes you you to the current movement.

Gabe Shillinger:
Definitely, definitely. And I think maybe related to software and marketing and business and stuff, for me, I think one of the reasons why I've been able to sometimes do things in my little niche of selling beats online that may be as early or sometimes maybe even the first to do it or to do it a certain skill, it's not because I'm any smarter or anything like that, or that I'm up on the exact super latest thing, it's more that I've got this foundation of understanding the basics of marketing and psychology, and these are some of the ways that people are driven to make decisions. And once you understand some of those basics, some of that foundation of, here's how to drive traffic, here's how to grow your list, here's how to nurture a relationship with that list, here's how to convert that list into customers.

Gabe Shillinger:
It's the same thing that works for every business from 10,000 years ago to 10,000 years in the future. Once you understand some of those basics, then it becomes, oh, here's this new software, here's this new social media platform, whatever. And instantly, you go, "Oh, I see where this fits into this framework that I already have." So I see the opportunity right away, I know what to do. It's not even that I'm being innovative or anything new, it's just like, "Oh, there's that thing. I see how that fits into this foundation of this thing I already have. And now I can be early and one of the first to do this." Hopefully I'm explaining that well.

Gabe Shillinger:
But it starts with understanding that foundation. And then from there, now, it's like, "Okay, now I can apply it." I guess maybe the music analogy, you have some basic theory and understanding. It doesn't matter if it's a brand new instrument, you have an idea of, "Oh, okay. I instantly have an idea of how to use this because I know how it can fit into the framework of how I know how to make the song."

Michael Walker:
Yeah. That's so good. And again, what came to my mind with that visual was the branches. It's sort of that root, the root where everything else can branch from. And I think that's so important to have those foundations, have the fundamentals. That's one thing that I know that both of us, our mentors have made a huge impact on us. And in a lot of ways, they're like these roots. They have the foundation or the fundamentals and things can grow and spread from there. When it comes to some of those foundational things, it's so important to be able to focus on those, because those things, they aren't necessarily as time based, they only work for a week or two, and then it's like they stop working.

Michael Walker:
It's the basic underlying patterns, the things that are always true. A wave is always a wave, and there's going to be different waves, but if you know the foundation of a wave, then you can catch the next wave. In terms of marketing and in terms of the foundations of the business and how that applies to musicians, what do you think are some of the things that are commonly missed right now in terms of some of the most important fundamentals that would be valuable to discuss for musicians?

Gabe Shillinger:
I think a big one is attention, traffic, social media, and building your list, and how those all tie together. A lot of times, I think what we see as musicians, as artists, as producers, we see the people who are successful and they've got a whole bunch of followers, subscribers, likes, comments, those types of things. So we think, "Oh, that must be the goal. That's the thing that equals success, is if I have more followers, subscribers, likes, comments, etc., on these different platforms." But to me, that's actually missing the point because the point is to take the people who are on that platform, let's just say Instagram, for example.

Gabe Shillinger:
So, yes, your listeners, your fans, your followers, your potential customers, they might be on Instagram, but here's the thing, is you can get a bunch of followers and then your account can get shut down in an instant. It happens all the time. Or, even more commonly, the algorithm changes where on Monday, you put something out and 10,000 people see it. On Tuesday, you put something out and 100 people see it. And all of a sudden, it's because the algorithm chain, something switched up, Facebook and Instagram changed their business model to where now... like Facebook used to be, you get a whole bunch of organic reach, now you get basically zero, it's all pay to play. They just changed their business model.

Gabe Shillinger:
So if I had spent years and years getting a whole bunch of followers or likes on my Facebook page, overnight, that became worthless. And the reason why is because we don't own that traffic. This is a concept I learned from, we talked about mentors, something I learned from Russell Brunson, this concept of owning traffic. If you have followers on Instagram, guess who owns that traffic? It's Mark Zuckerberg, that's his traffic. It's his platform, he can do whatever he wants with it. But once you get somebody's phone number or you get their email address, now you own that traffic, because now you have the ability to text, call, email that person from any platform you want, it's not platform specific.

Gabe Shillinger:
I could import my list into, whatever, MailChimp, and then I could say, "Nah, I'm going to bring it over to active campaign." I can just go into Gmail and type in their name, I can go on my phone and text somebody. So that's when you own that list. So that's the most important things to actually own that list. So when you're looking, when you're thinking about social media, the purpose of that is to get the attention there, find your followers, find your subscribers, connect with them there, but then get them off that platform onto yours, meaning, get that email, get that phone number. And now, you can nurture that relationship from there. Now, you can really own that relationship, own that traffic.

Gabe Shillinger:
And from there, it's elevating that relationship of, "Okay, now I'm going to go to the next step of showing them more of my music," of going now from somebody who's a fan to a customer and selling them services and experiences and products and whatever your business model that you work out might be. But super important is not focusing on how many likes, comments, fans or followers you have on those platforms, but how many you can actually move from that platform onto your own platform.

Michael Walker:
All right, let's take a quick break from the podcast. I can tell you about a free, special offer that we're doing right now, exclusively for our podcast listeners. So if you get a ton of value from the show, but you want to take your music career to the next level, connect with the community of driven musicians and connect with the music mentors directly that we have on this podcast, or if you just want to know the best way to market your music and grow an audience right now, then this is going to be perfect for you. So right now we're offering a free two-week trial to our Music Mentor coaching program. And if you sign up in the show notes below, you're going to get access to our entire Music Mentor content vault for free.

Michael Walker:
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Michael Walker:
Then once a month, we're going to have our Music Mentor Spotlight series. And that's where we're going to bring on some of the world's biggest and best artist coaches and successful musicians to teach you what's working right now. And one of the most amazing parts is that you can get your questions answered live by these top-level music mentors. So, a lot of the people that you hear right here on the podcast are there live interacting with you personally. So, imagine being able to connect with them directly. On top of all that, you'll get access to our private Music Mentor community.

Michael Walker:
This is definitely one of my favorite parts of Music Mentor, and maybe the most valuable, is that you're going to have this community where you can network with other artists, and link up, and collaborate, ask questions, get support, and discuss everything related to your music career. So, if you're curious, and you want to take advantage of the free trial, then go click on the link in the show notes right now and you can sign up for free. From there, you can check out all the amazing content, connect with the community, and sign up for the live master classes that happen every week. This is a gift for listening to our podcast and supporting the show. So, don't miss it out. Go sign up for free now. And let's get back to our interview.

Michael Walker:
One way that describe what you just talked about is a business analogy, what we call the rain catcher. The rain catcher is just a fancy way of saying filling a funnel. But the idea that generating traffic or exposure in a way, it's like it starts raining, the raining is exposure, but if you're holding out your hands, then most of the rain is wasted, it goes into the ground, you don't really capture it. But if you're smart, you can have these rain catchers, these funnels to capture that. You can even have a magnet at the top of them that pulls in the rain as it's falling. And literally, what you just described is exactly what I talk about too, in terms of, I call him farmer Facebook, comes along.

Michael Walker:
It's like, "You could use my rain catchers. How old are y'all?" It's like, "Well, now you've got pay me some money." I 100% agree. I think it's so important. One thing that's really missing for a lot of musicians, because there is a lot of focus on social media and the numbers, in some cases, somewhat vanity metrics compared to the nitty-gritty of like, if you're using paid traffic, what's your cost per acquisition and what's your value per acquisition?

Michael Walker:
I guess to go a little bit deeper into that, because I think that you're 100% right, that that's one big missing component, is like focusing too much on the front end of like the social media platforms and not tying that back into your own platform that you own, being able to build a deeper relationship with peoples through there. And I also know that for a lot of people who are listening to this right now, they're even like maybe one step behind or behind that worse places of like, "Man, how do I get the attention in the first place? I want to grow my social media platforms so I can grow my email list. How do I even do that?" So what are some of your thoughts around ways for them to also just garner that initial attention?

Gabe Shillinger:
I'll move on to that in a second, but I do think it's so important to have that second part ready from the start, because I do think that the mistake is so often focusing on that first part only of like, "Okay, let me get the attention, let me get the followers." And then it ends there. And to me, the reason why I've been able to get more and more of those attention and followers is because I have the next part of that built out where once they get onto my platform, I have a process of converting that person into a customer. Because I have that process, it means now I can make some money, which means I can invest more money into getting that more attention.

Gabe Shillinger:
So by having some of that backend of that process built out, that's actually what's allowed me to then go out and get more attention because I'm generating revenue already. Instead of saying, "Okay, let me build up this brand, let me get as much recognition and many people to know me as possible, and then I'm going to figure out how to make some money later," for me personally, I was all the way on the other end of the spectrum. I was like, "Okay, let me as a producer selling beats," that was specifically what I was doing, "Let me get that process in place."

Gabe Shillinger:
"Okay, they're going to give me their email address and phone number, then I'm going to have this little nurture sequence, then I'm going to offer them this little beat pack, and then this. Bam, let me build that out, let me work on that. And then let me just literally get on Twitter and Instagram and start DM-ing people to get traffic to that thing," just to reach out to people personally and start getting them into that funnel, into what would you call the rain-catcher. And just like physically willing one person at a time into there, making sure that process works, generating revenue, and now I can do more paid traffic. Now, I can do more because I have money and time now to focus on that front end.

Gabe Shillinger:
So to me, I really emphasize that part of it because I think there's just way too much focus on the brand and the front end, and it's like, "Yeah, that's great, but you got to do something with it?"

Michael Walker:
Yeah. That's so important having that. Again, if you make it rain before you have the rank, then it just goes into the ground, it's wasted. So I 100% agree with that, having set up on the backend, I also do think that sometimes it could be a little bit challenging. In our case and what I would recommend for everyone, that you have guidance or you have mentorship to basically help you that has more experience when it comes to, okay, how do you build this backend? Because I do think that sometimes early on, they might not even know like, "Okay, how do I build this on the backend?"

Michael Walker:
They might be totally just so disconnected because they're not even having those initial conversations on the front end, that they might not know what the backend should look to connect with people. But I 100% agree, I think that it's a huge wasted opportunity and that there's so much focus on the front end without talking about the backend, because it feels good for our egos to have numbers and to look popular and stuff. So I definitely agree with what you just said.

Gabe Shillinger:
Yeah. And then I guess not to completely ignore your questions, one of the things that I did, which is what I said was literally just to reach out to people and figure out, "Okay, let me find the people that might be interested in what I'm doing." So for me, if I happen to be a producer who's selling beats, well, then let me find other accounts that are producers selling beats, and maybe the people that are following, interacting with those accounts, pretty good chance that those are people who are going to be interested in what I'm doing.

Gabe Shillinger:
If I'm an artist and I have a certain genre of music that I make, I might find other artists, find their audience and see, "Oh, who are the most engaged members of this audience? Who are the people who are actually liking and commenting on their stuff," and then go and interact with those people and go and actually liking comment on those fans things, leave comments. Wait until they then see, "Oh, somebody liked and commented on my stuff, let me go check them out." They check out your account. You do hopefully a decent job of making your account show the value that you have, whether if that is the type of music you make or you sell beats or whatever it is.

Gabe Shillinger:
Some percentage of those people are going to follow you back. People who follow you back, go ahead and send them a DM. And this was actually something that I learned from Rick Barker, I think a mutual friend of ours, is specifically on Instagram is when send a DM, instead of typing out a little like, "Hey, thank you so much for the follow, blah, blah, blah," send them a video or an audio message. And it makes such a big difference. They feel like, "Oh my God, this person took the time." And say their name in the message.

Gabe Shillinger:
It'd be like, "Hey, what's up Michael, really excited to connect with you here on Instagram. Let me know if there's any projects you're working on, we'd love to speak more." That would be maybe for me as a producer. If I'm an artist, maybe it'd be targeted a little bit more towards like, "Hey, I don't know if you're a fan of blah, blah, blah type of music. I'd love to hear more about it. Let me know." So now you're starting this conversation, it feels super personal, and now you are building those relationships. It's not just about, "Well, how many people can I get to hit follow, but how many people can I really start that relationship," which then the next step is going to be, "Now, how do I take them off of this platform onto mine? How do we nurture that relationship? How do we convert them into true fan to customers from there?"

Michael Walker:
Yeah. And that's definitely the way to share it. I feel like it's both part of the current wave in terms of use social media in order to find where those people are engaging, where they hang out and setting up a DM or sending them an audio or video message, I think that Loom.com, recording a quick video message is one of the most amazing tools that we can use to be able to communicate or to be able to connect with new fans. And also just the basic foundations of what you just shared are so aligned with just the way it always has been with business, with marketing, is first find out who are the people who are most likely to get value from what it is that you offer.

Michael Walker:
And even before that, you figure out, what do you have that's valuable that you can offer? So you do that first step that you just talked about, first you build out the back, you feel like, "Okay, how can I provide more value? What can I package together that's actually going to provide something that people are willing to pay for?" And building a sequence around that. And then finding out, where do people spend their time, the people who are most likely to resonate. So in this case, if you're an artist finding out, where do your fans hang out?

Michael Walker:
Well, they're probably following other bands that are in your genre, and they're probably going out to shows. They're probably engaging with them online and meeting them where they hang out and introducing yourself, being friendly, actually having conversation, really, really powerful. Let's talk a little bit about maybe the backend, if we zoom back a little bit more now, especially in today's day and age with streaming, you need a lot of streams in order to make an income from it. But I think that for most artists, the music isn't necessarily the revenue generator anymore and it's like they have to offer other things.

Michael Walker:
So, what are some of the biggest opportunities you think that are available right now for musicians to be able to offer on the backend for things that are actually valuable to their fans and just ways for them to build a sustainable income with their music?

Gabe Shillinger:
That's the big question. For me as a producer, honestly, it's a little bit easier than if you are an artist, because I do have a product that people are still willing to pay for it. Artists still do buy beats, but it still is a challenge because there's, I think there's over two million producers on BeatStars, which is just one of the beats selling platforms. So now I'm competing with two million other producers selling essentially the exact same product for essentially the exact same price. So then it becomes still the same question, well, how can I actually provide more value? How can I stick out?

Gabe Shillinger:
So for me, I'm thinking about, well, what are the different things, what are the different problems that my potential customer are dealing with? So for me personally, my customer is rappers and singers. And so one way to look at that is, every time you solve one problem for your customer or fan, you actually create more problems. Something I learned from a guy named Stephen Larson. And it sounds bad at first, but it's actually a good thing. If I teach you something and you make a whole bunch of money, now you have a new problem. You have to learn where to invest that money. You have to learn where to go on vacation.

Gabe Shillinger:
These are not bad problems, you just create new problems. So if I provide beats to an artist, then maybe now that problem is solved, but now maybe they need mixing and mastering, maybe they need artwork for their single or for their album. Maybe they need help promoting it, maybe they need help with their social media. Maybe they need help with their mindset so that they can actually stick with it long enough to put that song out. There's so many different things around that first initial thing that I offer that now I can continue to solve more problems and a higher level of problem that's going to now make it so that people want to work with me instead of those two million other producers, because I actually I'm solving more problems.

Gabe Shillinger:
That's one way to think about it. I think again, if you're an artist and your customer is a fan, and essentially they want to listen to music because they, I don't know, it makes them feel a certain way, gives them an emotion, it makes them feel good, then it's not quite as straightforward. It's more of B2C, a business to customer, as opposed to, I'm kind of in a business to business sort of, it's a hybrid in a way where a rapper or singer, they're building their business too. So to me, where I want to start then there if you're an artist, is really get clear about your customer avatar, really get clear about who your fan is and who exactly you want to serve.

Gabe Shillinger:
Who exactly is that person, and get really deep, come up with a whole story, give that person the name, figure out a whole backstory of exactly who's that person. And then think about, well, what's the result I want to get them? So for me it might be okay, well it's a rapper and I want to help them accomplish blah, blah, blah. But maybe as an artist as well my customer avatar is a kid in the Midwest and he's struggling with anxiety and blah, blah, blah. I don't know, something like that. So then it's like, "Okay, cool, cool, cool." So my music of course is going to speak to that person, and that's great, but now, well, what else can I do for that person? What can I create around that brand?

Gabe Shillinger:
So maybe for one thing is making sure that I'm talking about them, talking about anxiety and mental health and stuff like that so it helps that person feel better. It gives that person some tools and resources. And then maybe I create a brand or a logo that's empowering them some way. And now all of a sudden, when I say, "Hey, I want to send this relationship to the point, we've done some stuff we already talked about, and now we're getting to the point where we're going to sell something," it's not that I just slapped a random logo on a t-shirt, but now that logo on that t-shirt represents something to that kid in the Midwest.

Gabe Shillinger:
It represents me taking control over my anxiety, for example, like put on that t-shirt and it changes their identity, they're a part of your tribe, they're a part of your brand. And so when you've put in that foundation, you put in a time to build that brand and that connection, now all of a sudden that merchandise, those experiences, those things that you're creating, again, it's not just slapping your logo on something and sending it out, it's actually changing who that person is by interacting with that thing. And now, that's where a lot of that value comes from.

Gabe Shillinger:
And then from there also, you could tie that into other actual products and services, I don't know, maybe you have CBD products that you could connect with a brand that does something like that, that helps with anxiety. Again, these are not the examples that whoever's listening to this needs to necessarily use.

Michael Walker:
Looking at the Google Trends is like, "CBD oil for musicians." The spike's like 50% overtime.

Gabe Shillinger:
I don't know, whatever Maybe your music is about being a vegan and you send people veggie trays. I don't know, whatever it is, figure out what you can tie into that brand, to that tribe, to that feeling that you're creating. And now turn that into actual value of experiences, product services so that you can eventually start to make some money.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. I think absolutely thinking about the value that you offer as a musician and getting really intentional, what's the most viable thing that you can offer to your fans? And I think that exercise that you're talking about of getting really in touch with your avatar, your fan avatar, especially if you're just starting out or you don't really have an audience yet, in order to get truly in touch with your avatar, you need to talk to those people and you need to have conversations with them, and you probably need to get on Zoom calls and do performances for them and ask them questions and just learn about their lives.

Michael Walker:
And through that process if you're doing it with the end in mind, you're thinking about, how can I provide value, probably ask them a lot of questions like, what can you possibly provide that valuable to them? I think that a couple of things that you pointed out are really smart as musicians, historically, and still the way it is, music is such a community-based type of thing, and it's one of the last tribal experiences I think that we really have is coming together for shows when haven't afraid there's not a global pandemic or something that's happening, but even when there is a lack of live shows, in person, people still more than ever need community and they need to tribe and music.

Michael Walker:
Man, it can bring us together and it can connect you with people you've never even met before that you're like brothers and sisters, and so much diversity. So I think really knowing that that's one of the most valuable things that you offer, you can do a lot with that. Things live shows, if you are doing live shows and you don't have a meet-and-greet I take it, those are some of the most lucrative things that you could offer, like a VIP meet-and-greet. And things like Patreon, a private community that people get exclusive access to you and your music, get more connected, and to the rest of the community.

Michael Walker:
And lastly, the one thing that you pointed out that I think is really, really smart and that we're finding right now is one of the most lucrative income streams for artists when it comes to their fan relationships, is creating experiences for them and creating things that are on more of a transformational level, things like putting together a retreat where some of your fans can come together to this retreat, and maybe you're recording new songs at a studio and they get to come at the studio for part of it. I think that one big thing, again, this isn't for everyone, but it will definitely be for a certain portion of your audience is just you being who you are and creating your type of music.

Michael Walker:
If you can just share how your creative process, and this is how I create my music. And you can bring people in, you can teach that, you can literally just document yourself while you're being creative and doing it. And if you can create like a course out of that, then there's going to be a portion of your audience that's interested in that. And I think it's a really big opportunity to explore, especially because you can really just document what you're already doing. It's going to also help you reflect on your own craft as you're doing it.

Gabe Shillinger:
Definitely. 100%. All those are great ideas, I hope people are taking notes because that's basically pretty much summed up all the ways that you can really monetize. And just to add one small thing to that is there's something so powerful of course, about in-person experiences like concerts and those types of things. And obviously those are more limited at least as of this recording right now with the pandemic and stuff like that. But also I think things are moving more and more in that direction where people are getting comfortable with virtual things.

Gabe Shillinger:
And you can create some awesome virtual experiences. You can do really cool stuff just with Zoom, where it does feel intimate and you do make people feel like they're a part of this live thing. And so I don't want people to think that the only way to create those live VIP type experiences has to be in person, you can absolutely do that virtually. You can hop on a Zoom call, you can do those and get creative about, maybe everybody can see the whole concert, but then there's a small meet-and-greet after, those VIP type tickets where it is, let's say on Zoom. So there's so many ways to be creative with those types of things even if you aren't leaving your house, that you can do a lot of that stuff virtually, which is actually pretty exciting.

Michael Walker:
Heck yeah, dude. For sure. I think if there has been one good thing that's come out of the pandemic, I think it has been really how it's illuminated our ability to stay connected through the... Can you imagine if the pandemic happened before we had the internet and before we had Zoom? In some ways, my bandmates of Paradise Fears, we definitely hadn't met up for probably a year or so before the pandemic and then pandemic happened and we started meeting on Zoom weekly. I felt in some ways we were able to connect more because of it. And so I think that you're definitely on point that there's a lot of really unique opportunities that come from the way that we have the internet and we have the ability to live stream that.

Michael Walker:
And in some ways, or even preferable to doing it in person, they're certainly more scalable. I feel like we've covered such good ground. I don't even know, man, where do we go from here? Is there anything else that you feel like... We really have covered a lot of really, really valuable topics today, I think it feels pretty complete, but is there anything else that you feel like we haven't talked about that is maybe a common misperception or a really big need for musicians right now that would be valuable to talk about before we wrap up?

Gabe Shillinger:
Man, I guess we did cover a lot. I can imagine too if you're a musician, or artist, producer, and maybe you're somewhat new to some of this, it's a lot, it can feel dense and some of these terms and stuff like that, but I guess I'd just maybe circle back to what I started with of just approaching it with the same creativity, approaching it with the same curiosity that maybe we all did with music, especially in those early days. I know for me, when I first started making beats, it was magic. It sounded like trash, but I was like, "Oh my God, this sounds like music. I did that."

Gabe Shillinger:
So I think if you can approach your marketing, your business, your bigger strategy as a brand with that same kind of curiosity and creativity and excitement, then for one thing, you're going to have a lot more fun doing it, and you're going to actually give yourself a chance to be successful because I've never met anybody, let's say who's a producer, who is an incredible producer who hates making beats. The only way to get really good at it is because you've done it so many times, and probably the only reason you've done it so many times is because you love to do it.

Gabe Shillinger:
It's the same thing with growing your brand, your business. In music, if you hate doing it, you're probably going to suck at it and you're going to continue to suck at it because you're not going to want to put the time into it. So figure out how to embrace that, how to have fun doing it, approaching it with that curiosity, that excitement, putting that creativity into it and being open to the idea, even if it sounds foreign right now, but the idea that it could actually maybe be just as fun to work on that side of things as your music, then I think you're actually giving yourself a chance to truly be successful.

Michael Walker:
Boom, mic drop. That's awesome. Cool, man. Well, hey, I super appreciate you coming on here and be able to have this conversation. It's a lot of fun, for me personally, I really enjoy being able to talk with people like you about these topics. And for anyone who is listening or watching this right now that wants to learn more about Legion Beats or wants connect more with you personally, what would be the best place for them to go to learn more?

Gabe Shillinger:
Yeah. Two things. If you're an artist, let's say you're a rapper or a singer, go to legionbeats.com/free, get some free beats. And you can check out what our whole process is on that side. If you're a music producer and you want to learn about growing your business, how to sell beats, go to midimoney.com/training. And we've got a free training there that'll teach you this whole process. And either one, even if you're not necessarily a producer or a rapper, if you just want to see what that process looks like, you can go check it out and see how you might be able to model that process for what you're doing yourself.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Like always, we'll throw all the links in the show notes below here to make them as easy as possible to grab. And Gabe, thanks again so much, man. It's been a lot of fun.

Gabe Shillinger:
Thanks. Appreciate it.

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today. And if you want to support the podcast, then there's few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit Subscribe, then I'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends on your social media, tag us. That really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take their music career to the next level. The time to be a modern musician is now, and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.