Kris Bradley:
Because I feel like the muse is this finicky being, right, who's in the room. And sometimes she comes, and she just comes on you, and it's like lightning in a bottle, right? And you're like, "Yes, this is awesome. I'm so awesome." And you're writing all this stuff, right? And sometimes it's not there at all. But if you show up, she's like, "I'll show up if you show up first." You've got to get it moving.

Michael Walker:
It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology, and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician, and it's only getting better. If you have high quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry, and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

Michael Walker:
All right, and we are officially live here with the one and only Kris Bradley. Kris is the founder of Produce Like a Boss, a company that she teaches artists, and specifically non-techie musicians how to produce high quality music in a much simpler, easier to understand way than we're traditionally used to when it comes to plugins and all a bunch of advanced complicated DAW stuff. Kris really has a great entry way to simplify things, which is a super valuable skill in and of itself. She teaches from experience. She's a musician herself. She's gotten placements for Sony, Warner Chappell, Fox, USA Network.

Michael Walker:
And today, we're going to talk about really two main topics. One is about your production, and as an artist, how can you cultivate the skill that is essential? Even if you're not a fully... You're only producing yourself all the time as an artist, and you still work with producers, it's still an essential skill to get really good at, and it's going to be hugely valuable in terms of you as an artist to be able to produce yourself. So, we're going to be talking about, how do you do that? And then also, we're going to be talking about some of the ways you can leverage that skill of production to actually be able to create a profitable business, which, when you're just starting out as an artist, and let's say that you don't have a ton of resources financially yet to be able to invest in marketing and different things, being able to do trade of services is super valuable. And just having a skillset like production is something that you can leverage. So, I think it's going to be super valuable to talk about that. So, Kris, thank you so much for being on the conference.

Kris Bradley:
Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Michael Walker:
So, Kris, what I love about you is that you really took this, you took this skillset that you've cultivated and you've invested a lot of time and energy to learn how to produce yourself, and it's had a huge positive impact on your life and your business. Now, you've been able to share this, and to be able to help other artists who are where you were at when you were starting out. I think it's a super valuable skill. I'm sure that now that you've worked with so many artists, you've seen a lot of the same common challenges, common mistakes, things coming up, things that you probably struggled with as well when you first started out. So, I'm curious, one, how did you get started making this transition to helping other artists with this, and in your own career, what are some of the biggest challenges and mistakes that you learned along the way?

Kris Bradley:
Totally. So, I'm originally from LA, and I live in San Diego now. But I moved to Nashville several years ago, and I was there for five years. And the whole goal was I was chasing that hit song, right? I wanted a major publishing deal or a major record deal, right? And sometimes, you're writing two in three times a day. So, if you're having to pay to get all your songs demoed, that can become quite an expensive songwriting habit, right? So, that's what I was doing. And I was paying anywhere from $500 to $3,000 per recording, depending on if it was being released, or if it was just a pitchable demo, right? So, I had that part of it.

Kris Bradley:
And after being in Nashville for a couple years, I started to get a couple wins. I got a couple cuts here and there. I got featured in Rolling Stone Magazine, MusicRow Magazine, got my songs on the radio, and I was like, this is awesome. I was like, but this is more like street credit than anything. It really wasn't sustaining me income wise. And then I was spending so much money on getting my songs produced. I was like, okay, I've got to think outside the box here. What else can I do? And so, learning how to produce began at a necessity, if you will, before it became a passion. Because I was like, man, I can't pay other people to keep doing this. And then I started doing my own demos, which took the load off a little bit because I was saving some money. But then I got pretty good at that, and then people started hiring me to do that their demos. And then demos turned into records, and records turned into placements, and it just kept growing. And I was growing this little side business doing productions and demos for people.

Kris Bradley:
And it's funny, because I went there to get a hit song, and I had friends that had number one songs. And all of a sudden, they're coming to me and they're like, "Hey, can you show me how you're doing this online thing with the producing and session work and..." Because I was doing anything from producing demos to just cutting vocals for people. There's DJs out there and producers that will hire you just to topline and song write to their tracks. So, it's like, here I am getting paid to write and record, but it's all outside of that traditional, what the traditional music industry tells you. So, it was really sobering for me to have somebody that they're living my dream. I moved to Nashville to get a hit song. You have a hit song, and you're asking me how to make money. So, I was like, okay, maybe I've stepped into something here.

Kris Bradley:
So, as it grew and this business grew from a demo business to a production business, at a certain point, I realized I wanted to help other people that were in the same position that I was. A lot of my friends were artists and I was like, you got to learn how to do this. This could get you out from working behind the bar, waiting tables, or driving for Uber, because I saw that a lot of my friends were struggling. So, I was really passionate about teaching other artists how to do this. And it all began in my home studio back in Nashville. And so, people were telling me as I was teaching them, they're like, "You're really good at explaining this in a very easy... It's very easy to understand when you say it to me." And I was like, ah. And I and I realized that I'm skipping over how hard this was for me to learn. Because I'm a singer songwriter, because I'm an artist, a lot of the technical talk around it, and the engineer brain stuff was just felt like technobabble to me. So, it was like whenever I went to work with another artist, I'm like, you know what? I got you, boo. I know how to put this in a way that you're going to understand and not talk over you.

Kris Bradley:
Because I remember asking a few friends and peers questions about production. And especially if they went to music school or audio school, engineering school. It was very textbook answers, stuff that was just way over my head. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to simplify this for the songwriter who doesn't speak technobabble and who's not wired like an engineer. So, that's what led to Produce Like a Boss.

Michael Walker:
That's awesome. Yeah, that's so cool. And I love... I feel like it's such a big opportunity and it's a great thing that we can dig into here, is while you're pursuing a career as an original artist, right, it's no secret that when you're first starting out, it's not like you're going to be raking in millions of dollars or even a sustainable income to just support yourself and invest in things. And so, I think that a lot of artists have a day job or their money gigs, and then they have their music, which is the thing that they really want to do, that they're really passionate about, but then they're doing this other thing that's totally unaligned that they're just doing to pay the bills so that they can pursue this other thing that they sometimes don't feel like they have enough energy for.

Michael Walker:
So, what I love about what you're describing too about some of this opportunity to learn the skill of production and to create a business around it, is that it's so complimentary, so aligned with your music career that if you're if you need to do something to make money, then how about making sure it's aligned with your vision to grow your original audience, and so build a successful music career, which generally is going to take some time. You got to plant the seeds, and you got to grow it, and it's not necessarily going to be an overnight type of thing.

Kris Bradley:
I would say it's having a plan B that supports your plan A. And I think that it's amazing to have really big wins as your focus. I won't be as big as Beyonce or Rihanna, but it's not Beyonce big or broke, right? It doesn't have to be like, I'm going to get $100,000 in placement, or I'm going to starve. And I think that's just a common misconception, is we have the dream of we're going to make it, or we're going to starve. And there's no in between for, I think, a lot of people. They don't have that in their sight. And I discovered it like this beautiful accident where I was like, whoa, I can actually do this professionally and as my job while I'm still going for those big wins. It's pretty cool.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, that's super cool. And I guess that probably part of the reason that people have that false narrative of the go big or make it or break it thing is maybe because of the old model, the way that it worked with record labels, where it was like a lottery compared to now, the great equalizer of the internet. And there is a lot of room in between, where you don't necessarily have to be the most... You don't have to be Beyonce to have a six figure music career. When you talk about building a music business and having this alignment there, what are then some of the most profitable skillsets, or how do you... Let's say that someone here is listening, they're like, "That sounds awesome. I would love to get started to start building a complimentary business that gives me income that aligns with my music career." Where do they even start?

Kris Bradley:
So, one of the best pieces of advice I ever got when I first started learning how to do this, because it's a lot. I'm not saying you're going to learn how produce and you're going to make money at it tomorrow. It's a little deeper than that. But are you already a great singer? Are you already a great songwriter, or even a guitarist, or a pianist? Because turning on the DAW and being able to record what your zone of genius is, is a different skill in itself, right? It's learning to produce. It's also learning how to record. So, the first step for me was, oh, I was already singing. I was already professional. I was already doing a lot of gigs and making money. So, the advice I got was focus on what you're good at first, and then let the rest build around it. Don't come at this and be like, I'm going to try and make money doing demos at first. Just start with, I'm going to make money as a session singer online, or I'm going to start remotely collaborating with people.

Kris Bradley:
So, that's where I started. It's like, I'm already 80% there, right? If I've got the skill down, now I just got to learn how to turn on the DAW and make everything work. So, that's usually the path that I take people on. I try to get where their strengths are, and we start them there, and it's like, you're working on these chops while you're doing this. I remember one of my first clients, she actually found me on YouTube, which was so random, because I didn't even have a channel. I'd less than 500 followers. And she found me and she's like, "I love your voice. I'd love to hire you to sing on..." She had hundreds of songs. She was a songwriter, but not a singer. And she goes, "Can you just send me a rough, even on your phone. I just want to make sure it's the right key for your voice." I said, "Sure." And I had Logic, but I had just barely started to use it.

Kris Bradley:
I tracked the vocal, I tracked the guitar, I threw a little reverb, a little compression, and I sent it to her via email, not as a voice memo, and was just like, "Well, here's this little rough thing." And she goes, "You did that?" She goes, "Well, I'll just hire you to record everything then." And I'm like, "Well, okay." And the next thing you know, I was sending her these guitar vocals. And I'm like, "I'm going to throw a little shaker in here. I'm going to throw a little bass in here." And I'm just tucking things in, and I'm like... Just to see, and she's like, "Oh, my gosh, you can add instrumentation." And then that's how the demo thing began.

Michael Walker:
That's awesome. Cool. So, it sounds like what you're saying is that you don't necessarily even have to start out as a full fledged producer, that there's actually a lot of opportunities for session work as a vocalist, or even talking about songwriting work. So, how does that work? What are the platforms that people can use if... Let's say that someone is watching this, and they're like, "I've got a good voice. And a lot of people tell me that I have an amazing voice, and I think that that's one of my skillsets." How do they get started with actually finding session work for that?

Kris Bradley:
Sure, sure. So, I always like to point people towards online marketplaces, where you're not trying to... Because there's so much to learn at once that it's like trying to set up your own website and drive traffic to that at first can be a little daunting, right? So, just getting on board with websites like BeatStars, and SoundBetter, and AirGigs, to name a few, or some websites where they're connecting professionals like audio mix engineers, and producers, and singers with people that are looking to hire them for those services. And the list goes on. I did custom songwriting. I did kid songs. I did voiceover. I've done... Custom songwriting is actually a really good one, for brands, for people. And that's one of those things too, where depending on what the gig is, it's not really about having this radio ready, Wall of Sound huge track. It's like, hey, I want to write a song for my girlfriend. I've got a budget of 1000 bucks. Can I hire you and tell you what I want it to be about? But I'm not a musician, and then you write that song, or something like that.

Kris Bradley:
I've actually got a lot of side jobs like that as well. And you can get really creative with it as well. I was watching something Prince Ea was talking about the other day on Instagram, and he was saying somebody reached out to him... Oh, it wasn't Prince Ea, it was somebody else. But anyways, he was an influencer with over a million followers. And he said a musician reached out to him, and was like, "Hey, man, I love your brand. I wrote a theme song for you. You could use it for a podcast, you could use it for this, that. What do you think?" And he's like, I loved it so much, much, I was like, immediately, I wanted to license it. And I ended up paying the guy three grand. And I was like, that is so smart. There's just... There's so many opportunities. So, you can do stuff like that, which is really going out on your own, but you can also maximize by using marketplaces like SoundBetter and AirGigs.

Michael Walker:
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Michael Walker:
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Then once a month, we're going to have our music mentor spotlight series. And that's where we're going to bring on some of the world's biggest and best artist coaches and successful musicians to teach you what's working right now. And one of the most amazing parts is that you can get your questions answered live by these top level music mentors. So, a lot of the people that you hear right here on the podcast are there live interacting with you personally. So, imagine being able to connect with them directly. On top of all that, you'll get access to our private music mentor community. And this is definitely one of my favorite parts of music mentor, and maybe the most valuable, is that you're going to have this community where you can network with other artists, and link up, and collaborate, ask questions, get support, and discuss everything related to your music career.

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So, if you're curious, and you want to take advantage of the free trial, then go click on the link in the show notes right now. You can sign up for free. From there, you can check out all the amazing content, connect with the community, and sign up for the live master classes that happen every week. This is a gift for listening to our podcast and supporting the show. So, don't miss out. Go sign up for free now, and let's get back to our interview.

Michael Walker:
So, I want to double down on one of the things that you brought up too, in terms of custom songwriting. That's something for some of our clients right now that we're starting to test out that's working really, really well, even for new fans who come in and just discover the music. And Todd Herzog, for example, he had a new fan who came in through his ads who purchased a $3,000 to custom songwriting experience, where she had just lost a family member, and he basically wrote the song to help her honor the family member and to process that grief. And it's super powerful. And what an amazing thing you can offer to a fan. And $3,000 for that as well, you get a couple of those a month, and you're close to a six figure a year income, which is pretty cool.

Kris Bradley:
Yeah, absolutely. That was the other side that I was going to mention about the custom songs, is it's coming in through fans, and not just a client, but somebody who just loves your music, and you're offering that red carpet experience of tears for them, whether it be through, a Patreon or a Kickstarter. But however you go about collecting money, people are going, okay, how much more can I pay to work with you on a deeper level, right? So, being able to custom write for your fans is amazing. But it's like, you got to have the tools to be able to hand it to them. You can always outsource a producer, sure, but I think it's just one of those things where working from home and having a home setup is no longer a luxury. I feel like it's a necessity, right?

Michael Walker:
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's become more and more expected nowadays, because of the ability that we have. Everyone can have the tools to record. And so, one thing that would be good to get your perspective on, because I think there is a yin and a yang, and there's pros and cons of different things. But what's your take on, is it ever right for an artist to... If slash when is it the right time for an artist as well to find a producer and to work alongside a producer? How do you recommend balancing that as well as developing their own skill as being a producer?

Kris Bradley:
Yeah, I think that learning this skill, it's one of those things where it's, you learn it, and depending on how much it calls to you, you're going to go down that rabbit hole, or you're going to stop at a certain place and go, "Now I can delegate this better, because now I can communicate with my producer better, because I know the language, I understand how arrangement works, I understand just enough about what these things are that I can actually..." I can't tell you how many times I've been in the studio with an artist, and they're like, "That thing that goes, and it's like..." They're trying to explain it, and it's coming out like... It made me a better artist, a more desirable artists to work with producers when I learned this even at a surface level, right? So, I can't answer that for one person, because it's all... For me, I got called to the rabbit hole. And at first I was like, no, I'm just a singer. I'm just going to learn how to record. And then it was like... And I kept going.

Kris Bradley:
So, it's going to be unique to each person. But I think it's important to understand when you've taken something as far as it can go, and to go, is this serving the song at the highest level? And if it's not, always serve the song at the highest level, right? And it's like, I tell people, now at this point, I've been producing for, gosh, almost 10 years, eight or nine years, and I can mix my own stuff, but I still... And I've been playing guitar since I was 15. I still outsource to the guy who lives and eats and breathes guitar. I want the guy and his zone of genius for that, just like I want the guy in his zone of genius for mixing and mastering, even though he can do those things too. So, it's not always a matter of can you, it's should you. But is learning it still valuable? Hell to the yes. Right?

Michael Walker:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think they articulated that so well, that it's not necessarily one or the other type of thing. And the value you get from learning the skill yourself, the way that it applies to working with producers as well, or working with other team members who can help to achieve the final vision, it's only going to benefit you to have that core understanding, at least at the basic level of how it works. If you don't understand it, then you're not going to be a very good... It's going to be very difficult to articulate the vision and understand if you're even doing a good job. That's another thing too. You might be like, I don't even know, is this good or not?

Kris Bradley:
And just one more thing I'd like to add to that for artists and singers is you really get this opportunity, especially now, it's like, remote collaboration, we got forced into that with the pandemic, right? But I think it's just going to continue to keep doing this, where it's like, people are now realizing that they don't have to leave their home studios to do these things, right? So, for singers, it's like, if you're uncomfortable in the studio, or you feel a little bit of pressure when the producer's there and the engineer's there, and people are there, the beauty of understanding how to work a mic so that you can get the... First of all, you can take your time. You're not worrying about being on somebody's watch, somebody counting the clock and charging you for it. You can really get the perfect vocal takes at home in the comfort of your own home, which is awesome.

Michael Walker:
That is super awesome.

Kris Bradley:
Right, just not having to think about it or anybody else, taking the pressure off. Talk about capturing the ultimate performance, and also getting really comfortable with your own voice. I notice a lot of artists, when they get into the studio, they hear their own voice, it freaks them out. So, it's just such a great tool to be really comfortable with this. And what a better place to start than home by yourself.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, it's really, really empowering. Awesome. So, how about let's say that someone is like, awesome, I want to start developing the skill, I want to start getting better at producing myself, and they start trying to learn production. What are some of the biggest mistakes that you see them make at first?

Kris Bradley:
I'm going to give the first two that come to mind. So, the first one is they think they need really expensive gear. They think they need to drive a Benzo for their first car, right? And so, that either stops them from starting, because it's that perfectionism getting in the way of, well, I can't do this until I can spend $10,000. So, that's just a myth. It's not true. You can do so much with under $1,000, easy. So, they're overspending on gear, or they're procrastinating because they think they need the fancy gear. And then number two, and this is the biggest one, is they think they need to understand everything that the DAW, which is digital audio workstation, they think they need to know everything that it does. And that's like saying I need to be able to take apart the engine of my car to be able to drive it.

Kris Bradley:
And so, they do things, like they go to music school and do production 101, right? Or they're trying to go, they take a class at Udemy or whatever, they go online and they go Logic or Pro Tools 101. Let's learn everything this thing does. Could you imagine if you got your Mac computer, and got at home, and was like, let's read the frickin' guide, and do everything that... Okay, it can do all these things. It would be so overwhelming. And realistically, none of that's going to stick. They say that we only... How much do we... I forget what the stat is, but it's like, you remember 20% of what you read anyways, right? So, I think that mistake is thinking they need to know and trying to cram it all, getting overwhelmed, and then going, I can't do this. It's too much. Instead of picking actionable bite sized things that they can get immediate wins with. Let's just learn how to track a vocal guitar today. Let's learn a cover song, rather than having to eat the whole elephant, if you will. Those are the two biggest ones for me.

Michael Walker:
Eating the elephant, yeah. I've eaten several elephants in my lifetime, and I wouldn't recommend it. It's not a good experience, no. Our mutual friend, Michael Elsener, he talks about the idea of just in time learning. So, that's what comes to mind when you're talking about the idea that you need to learn everything and understand everything. And really, it's just a waste of mental energy and mental bandwidth, because like you're saying, you're going to retain very little bit. In fact, the only stuff that you're probably going to retain is the stuff that's actually applicable to your life right now that you actually act on. And so, rather than just trying to learn everything just for the sake of having knowledge, it seems like it's much better... You're going to get much more leverage from just in time learning and really deciding, what am I trying to do? What's my goal? What's my outcome? And okay, what do I actually need to pull into my pipeline of learning in order to accomplish this outcome?

Kris Bradley:
Yeah, 100%.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. So, what do you say if we wanted to zoom out and maybe look at a high level overview of the path to go from artist who has some basic production skills and who knows how to open up Logic or able to add and click record and can record some stuff, going from that point to making the first $1,000 a month as a music career income from their work?

Kris Bradley:
What would be some steps for that?

Michael Walker:
Yeah, if you're zooming out to maybe looking at a higher level, what are some of the biggest steps for it?

Kris Bradley:
So, if I'm just speaking from my experience, what's worked for me was signing up on a few different platforms online, where I was capitalizing on somebody else's traffic, right? So, being able to get on BeatStars and Soundbetter and AirGigs, where they've got thousands, millions of people visiting their site, and being able to get my profile in front of those people and my demos for that. So, that would be first. And then secondly would be social media, and utilizing that, and letting people know that you are available for work, starting within your network as well. And not worrying if none of... All these are all my friends. It doesn't matter, because once you put it out there, maybe your friends are like, oh, that's so great you're doing that. I have a friend that didn't know about this, and just trusting that... I've gotten a lot of work just by sharing a track I'm working on, on Instagram. People will DM me, and they're like, hey. I had a guy DM me, he became a client for a few months. He's like, "I love these beats you're making." He's like, "I'm a rapper. Can you make me..." It was a retainer. He's like, "Can you make me five of these a month for a couple months?" I'm like, "Sure."

Kris Bradley:
So, just putting yourself out there, both on your own network and other bigger networks would be a big step. And then of course, starting with what you're already good at. Obviously, we don't want to go and try and monetize something we haven't mastered yet. But if you're a great singer, learn how to... Make sure that your gain staging properly, that you know how to send files, that you are doing things like bouncing from zero and not clipping, and the basic stuff. And as a guitar player, make sure you know how to print the tones and stuff like that. And just being able to dial in your zone of genius.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. That's super helpful. Yeah, thank you for throwing me a little bit of a curveball. I'm just imagining higher level steps. But that definitely helps a lot just to understand for, I think, a lot of people right here. They're like, this is awesome. I would love to get started with this. But just understanding a higher level what are the steps to do is definitely helpful. What do you say are, again, some more of the biggest mistakes or challenges that you see artists making when it comes to both the business side of it, so the production side and getting started with that. And also, we could go down the path of with their productions themselves and different things that they're trying.

Kris Bradley:
I think some of the biggest mistakes that that artists are making is thinking if you build it, they will come. They're not putting enough music out there. I have this quote that has stuck with me for so long, and I swear for the life of me, I can't figure out who it is, so I'm just going to say it's a quote. But it is perfectionism is procrastination disguised as productivity.

Michael Walker:
That's good.

Kris Bradley:
Right? Every time I hear it, it gives me the chills. And I feel like that is probably one of the biggest things I've ever seen. It's like, you're never going to be ready. And as somebody who is a recovering perfectionist and procrastinator, I just live by ready, fire, aim these days. It's so much easier to pivot when you're in motion than it is to get started. So, just do it. And it's okay to suck. You got to learn how to walk before you can run. You need to learn how to crawl before you can walk. And in order to do that, you have to just start. And I'd say that that is the biggest thing holding people back, whether it's the gear... I did this too, Michael. I did this for a couple years, where I had Logic on my computer, and I'm like, but I can't afford third party plugins, and I only have stock sounds, so I'm not going to make anything because it's just going to be trash anyways. That was just me protecting myself, right?

Kris Bradley:
So, whenever I see stuff like that, I'm like, by the way, Pharrell has made bangers using nothing but Logic stock sounds. So, there really is no excuse. And as far as just getting into the DAW and the more technical stuff, what was your second part of the question about the productions?

Michael Walker:
Yeah, let me... Before we go into that part, I still have to dig a little bit deeper on this, because this is so good. I got goosebumps as you were sharing that. And this is one of those things that we talked about throughout the event, how everyone has different strategies, different tactics, things on the surface, but then there's going to be these patterns and things that come up over and over again. And I think that this point that you just brought up about perfectionism, and how it's an excuse procrastination, and uncovering that would be great to dig into that a little bit more. Because I think ultimately, you're right, I think that's the number one thing, is fear. It's a fear of actually moving forward, and we tend to try to avoid looking at those things. And a lot of times, we'll drag our feet, or we'll come up with excuses, or, oh, I can't do this because X, Y or Z thing. So, I'm curious, what would you recommend to speak to that specific fear? Where do you think that that fear is coming from, and how do you address that and overcome that?

Kris Bradley:
Because I think that people are afraid to... You're not... It's like having writer's block. You're not blocked. Seth Godin says you're not blocked, you're just afraid of writing something crappy. That's all it is, right? A doctor doesn't say, "Oh, I just don't feel inspired today." They get up and they go to work. So, for me, it's like, rather than saying I'm just not feeling inspired to that, or making excuses, I just do the work. I just show up anyways, even if it doesn't feel good, even if I'm scared, and I just pushed through it. I keep coming around to writer's block, because that's such a good example of perfectionism. People go, "Well, I'm just not inspired, so I'm not going to write." And I'm like, that's the difference between an amateur and a pro, though.

Kris Bradley:
Because I feel like the muse is this finicky being, right, who's in the room. And sometimes she comes, and she just comes on you. And it's like lightning in a bottle, right? And you're like, "Yes, this is awesome. I'm so awesome." And you're writing all this stuff, right? And sometimes it's not there at all. But if you show up, she's like, "I'll show up if you show up first." You've got to get it moving, right?

Michael Walker:
Yeah, I love that. It reminds me of... I think I've heard a quote from Stephen King talking about the muse and his version of the muse is this old man who comes... And the basement, is basically... I forget. It's a very Stephen King way of describing his muse. But the idea was that quote you're talking about, how it's not about only working when you feel inspired, because it's going to be very few and far between. But really, the people who are the most successful are the ones who have routines, and they show up, and they do the work, even when they don't feel like it. And a lot of times, the momentum of getting started is the thing that brings it out and gets things into a rhythm.

Kris Bradley:
Right. And just really quick, to go back to people not wanting to make bad music, right? Because that's what it is, right? Everyone's... Essentially, we're afraid of fear, and we're afraid... I'm sorry, we're afraid of rejection, right? We don't want to suck. And oftentimes, people will ask me, well... Because I always talk about quantity, quantity, quantity, quantity, you got to just keep making music, make a song every day, make your song, make yourself make a beat in 10 minutes. You'd be surprised how your brain works when you set a timer and go, no matter what, I got to finish this. And you turn it into a game, you will make moves you never would have made if you gave yourself a day to do it, or a week to do it, right?

Kris Bradley:
So, it's not quantity or quality. I think it's that quantity, quantity, quantity over time. It's the repetition. It becomes quality, then it becomes quality and quantity. And that's what you need to get to the next level. Because it isn't just... One song... And here's the other thing, is, one more thing about a common mistake. People think that it's like they're going to hit the lottery and... Yeah, I guess one song could change your life, but do you want to bet your life on a lottery ticket? Because that's literally what that's doing, right? I think that the most successful people, multiple streams of income coming, they got multiple irons in the fire. They're not like, oh, I'm going to start that Beyonce big or broke thing, right?

Michael Walker:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that one of the one of the best analogies that, or one the best stories that comes to mind to illustrate what you're talking about right now is this study that a high school teacher... It was either high school or college teacher did, where basically, he had two classes. And their goal was to make a vase that was the most... The best quality vase, basically. And they had two groups. And with one of the groups, he said, "Okay, so you're going to spend all of your time working on creating the best vase possible, and you have months to do it, and you have this one vase. And you just make... You've got all your time, and you just make it as great as possible." And with other group, he said, "Basically, you just make as many as possible. And doesn't matter how good it is, but you just make it as much as possible." And at the end, they compared the vases, and the ones where they basically made a ton of vases but they weren't really worried about the quality being super great were the ones that ended up just being hugely, not even close, way better quality than the one that people had spent so much time crafting, trying to get the perfect one.

Michael Walker:
So, I think there's a lot of wisdom to what you're talking about with quantity versus quality, and quantity as a way to iterate and to learn what works. Kind of like what we talked about with version 1.0, getting to version 3.0 as quickly as possible. The first version's probably not going to be very good, no matter what you're doing if you don't have the skill, but the iteration and learning, the lessons learned. So, I guess in your perspective, is it possible that someone is just like, is going for quantity, quantity, quantity, quantity, quantity, but they can stifle their growth if they don't have enough reflection, or a mentorship, or they're able to learn from those, what's your perspective on the best way to get the most value from the learning as they're putting things into practice and they're doing the quantity as well?

Kris Bradley:
Sure, yeah, I think it's a combination of the feedback you're getting from your fans and your peers as well as your mentors, right? Because I am a huge... Oh, gosh, I'm always investing in learning and growing. I love it. I will never not buy a book. When I hear it dropped on a podcast I'm like, got to get that, or working with mentors is amazing. But also, it's good to get that direct feedback. That's the world we live in too, from your fans, right? I think that's great, that instead of having to go into a studio and drop three grand or five grand, and get a song, and then release it and find out if people like it, you could be doing little demo versions of it, or even little live versions of it, and doing a market research, where you're like, what do you guys think of this? Or here's five songs, help me pick my next single, right?

Kris Bradley:
So, I think it's a combination of gigging it from people behind the curtain and in the industry, but also on the other side, because we hear with different ears than a lot of consumers. And that's why it's important to get both, right? When I send a song to another producer, and I'm like, "What do you think?" I always send it to just a friend who's a fan, not necessarily even of me, but just of music, because I know they're going to hear it differently. We listen differently as professionals, right?

Michael Walker:
That's a really good point. That reminds me of... I'm a geek for video games. And I don't play video games as much as I used to, because I'm too busy doing stuff that isn't just me playing video games. But I still love video games. And if you would have told me 10 years ago that there'd be Twitch streamers who are making millions of dollars on Twitch, I would go, "Mom and dad, that's it. I give up on everything. I'm playing video games." But what it reminded me of was on Metacritic, which is a reviews platform that basically compiles the critics' reviews, and it compiles the user reviews. And what you're saying is the difference between the critics versus the users... The same thing applies to Rotten Tomatoes sometimes. They have those two scores for a reason. Sometimes there's critics who, they give something a terrible score. They're like, oh, this sucks. But then the user score is super high, because it's like, no, this is awesome. The critics didn't like it, because they feel like it's too bland or generic, because they listen to so much music all the time.

Michael Walker:
But that's not always necessarily the only viewpoint to consider. It's one to consider, so it's great to reach out to them. But also, I think you're totally on point that it's great to just have a direct conversation with your fans and the people who were actually listening to it. And it's also a great way just to build a deeper relationship with them at the same time and show that you care about them and start building a conversation.

Kris Bradley:
Absolutely, absolutely. It's funny, I released... I was doing all these demos, and we were pitching them in Nashville, and finally I was like, man, I love these songs. I'm like, I'm just going to put these on a rec, I'm going to get them professionally mixed and mastered. And they were all demos done in my bedroom. And I would bring them to gigs and stuff, and I'd just be like, I produced this myself. It's donation based. It had six songs on it, so many people would hand me a 20. And they would come to the gigs over and over. Oh my god, they'd be singing along. My daughter loves your music, which, it was amazing, right? And then I was like, oh, great. And I got some money together, I did a Kickstarter. I'm like, I'm going to get this song professionally produced, and did my next single, and it did not get the same response. But technically, it was the best... It was the highest quality song I ever put out to date. But as far as my fans, they just didn't respond the same. And maybe it's because they got the story too. They came with it of like, hey, I'm doing this myself. And they were coming to my gigs. And I told them how I made the songs. But yeah, just two different sets of ears there.

Michael Walker:
That is super interesting. Yeah, I think that you're right, that the engagement, and the fan engagement connection, and the relationship there trumps everything, at least when it comes to your original music. And if you're looking to build a career where you have the relationship with the fans, and they're the ones that are providing the money then, it's a crucial thing to think about.

Kris Bradley:
Yeah, I think that's super... Especially nowadays, I think that is so important. I think fans love to be a part of the journey and be included in that, and just the power of story in general is so key. So, I think that you can document the process of you writing. I've actually done this in the car, where instead of just getting a voice memo of a song idea, I'll just turn on the video and I'm like, okay, so I have this idea, and actually sharing me going through the mumble phase of coming up with a melody or a lyric, and even little things like that. If you go into the studio, taking the camera with you behind the scenes, sharing your lyric writing process, sharing the story of what the song is inspired by, all of this can be done in just little short bits of content that you could release dripped out through the process of promoting a single, and then maybe even do one big piece of content with it all edited together at the end, which could be cool too.

Michael Walker:
I love it. I think it's such an interesting idea, because of just the time that we live in, where we have the ability... I think there's something really special about live. There's just a certain energy that happens from just being in the present moment, being here as part of the creative process. And I think being able to bring in your fans to be a part of that and to be able to literally see the creative work happening through you is something that's probably really fascinating for the right person. And it's something that you could have gated by in some membership community or something, just for your inner circle, or really, your biggest supporters who want to be a part of that process, And as an artist, you have these different... It's almost like an onion, you have these different layers of yourself. And on the surface or the furthest out on your social media, the tip of content iceberg is your most polished, the stuff that you're really putting out. I think that that going live, and you're documenting the stuff as you're doing it live can be a really powerful way to leverage both the live stuff, then to record it to be able to repurpose it and snip it off and stuff like Kris was talking about.

Kris Bradley:
That's awesome. I love that. And I love the idea of that being an upper tier as well, so it's like you've got this stuff that you're putting out publicly that's a little more polished, and it's like, hey, if you want to get behind the scenes, that ends up being just a different level at which they can work with you, and I love that.

Michael Walker:
But yeah, it is really interesting being able to document and being able to leverage that content. And then the people who were there see this progression of your art as it goes from beginning to the end. Super cool.

Kris Bradley:
Yeah.

Michael Walker:
Cool. All right, well, Kris, thank you so much for hopping on summit today. It's been a lot of fun. But also, I just think that the quality of energy that you bring to this topic is super needed right now, and making it more digestible and easy for artists to cultivate the skill to be able to produce themselves, and then also having an alternative source of income to a day job or something that's not really aligned to music is something that's super valuable. So, thank you for doing what you do. And for anyone who is here right now that is interested in connecting more or learning more about the different programs and free resources that you offer, where would be the best place for them to connect more?

Kris Bradley:
Produce Like a Boss is all the socials, and the website, producelikeaboss.com, and @producelikeaboss.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Kris, you're awesome. Thanks for being part of the summit. And I hope you have a fantastic rest of your weekend.

Kris Bradley:
Thanks so much for having me.

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about the guest today. And if you want to support the podcast, then there's a few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe, then I'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends on your social media, tag us. That really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take their music careers to the next level. The time to be a modern musician is now, and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.