Ariel Hyatt:
All of the successful people that you see now in music in some form or fashion, they have an area of mastery in communication. That's the mastery that we're talking about, and that is what will allow you to ride all of those waves.

Ariel Hyatt:
Yes, you might have to learn, "No, here comes the playlisting wave, here comes the damn TikTok wave." There's going to be the waves that are annoying that will force you into being adaptable. But if you already know excellent communication and there's, of course, other things to know, those waves as they come at you, you're going to ride them out so much better.

Michael Walker:
It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician, and it's only getting better.

Michael Walker:
If you have high quality music but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, I'm going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry, and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

Michael Walker:
All right. And we're here, officially live with the one and only, Ariel Hyatt. So, thank you so much for taking time to be here today. How are you doing?

Ariel Hyatt:
I'm so good, because, ta-dah.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. Look at that. That is her brand new book. Give me the news. You just told me by the way. I'm just like

Ariel Hyatt:
The news is the UPS woman arrived with four giant boxes of my author copies. I really relate to how my artists feel. For those of you that print merch or print CDs, for those of you that still do that, it just feel so like I did this. I did this.

Michael Walker:
It is an incredible accomplishment. I think writing any book in general is an accomplishment, but writing multiple books which are bestsellers is much higher accomplishment. Speaking of which, I'm guessing what, did you get like 35 or 30, or top 25? What was the ranking of the new book that just came out?

Ariel Hyatt:
Number one.

Michael Walker:
It's number one.

Ariel Hyatt:
Number one.

Michael Walker:
I think we were still on my screen, so we can see holding up your finger, but she's holding up her finger. She got number one. So, bestseller right now. On Amazon, it's bestseller?

Ariel Hyatt:
Number one in the music business category. Yes, it feels ... For those of you that don't listen when people say build your email list, I am here to tell you, that is how this happened. I have a nice email list, and a lot of people that have known me signed up for the book, pre-order on Amazon, and we are number one which feels really, really good.

Michael Walker:
Well, congratulations. That is awesome. Having gotten to know you. I know how good the book is. It's not just about number one, but it's also just about the impact and how much that book is ... The ripple effects are going to come from what you just released out into the world. It's definitely incredible, so congratulations.

Ariel Hyatt:
Thank you. And shout out to you right here. Right here. That's you. You're quoted. Here's what you said. "In a sea of increasingly saturated information, sometimes it can be difficult to know who to trust. Ariel has a voice that cuts through the noise by sharing gems of wisdom and real-world experience earned from a lifetime of service. If you're a musician, get this book. It will save years." Thank you, thank you, thank you for your beautiful quote.

Michael Walker:
Thank you. It's truth. I was like I wanted to encapsulate the awesome sauce. The awesome sauce without using the word awesome sauce on the review. It's an honor to be on the book. Again, I know that is going to make a huge impact for so many artists. Also, I mean shameless plug and go get the book. If you're watching this right now, if you're a musician and you're here right now, then I think that the book is going to be super valuable for you. Having read it myself, I think that it's a must read for any artists who are interested in, and really diving into the world of PR and publicity, and really just having ...

Michael Walker:
I think one thing I really appreciate about you Ariel is how the foundation ... It's like a lifetime of experience and so much real-world knowledge from the artist that you're working with personally. What I said was true. I think that learning from decades of experience is going to save people probably years of time, so it's awesome to be here.

Michael Walker:
So, let's go ahead and let's dive into the interview and the conversation so we can share some of those gems of wisdom that we've been talking about. And also, again, definitely get the book if you haven't yet, because it's awesome.

Michael Walker:
Ariel, for anyone who's here right now, maybe they've heard of you once or twice, or maybe it's their first time connecting with you. Could you just share your story quickly to introduce yourself?

Ariel Hyatt:
Absolutely. My name is Ariel Hyatt. My company is called Cyber PR. For 25 years, I have served the independent musician community. I started as a traditional PR firm back, back, back in 1996. And today, through all the iterations of the business, we have pivoted more times than I'd like to talk about. However, right now, what we are today is we are half artist development company, so we write long term marketing plans. And we help our artists really vision what does the next look like for you no matter what that is.

Ariel Hyatt:
The other thing we do is half PR. So, we are a publicity firm. We get our artists' PR, blogs, podcasts, online, minimal playlist. Some not. We're not a playlisting company, but that is in our wheelhouse. And then we also do social media management and social media posting.

Ariel Hyatt:
The thing that I've always stood by for the last 25 years, as you might have figured out, is I love helping the community. We have a blog. There's 400 plus articles there about all things marketing related for musicians. Plus, this is my fifth or maybe sixth book that I've just published. That is my passion is writing to help artists. I also have a podcast. You can take courses, which many of them are free on my website, cyberprmusic.com. But that, in a nutshell, is me.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Let's dive in. Having 25 years plus of experience working with artists and kind of seeing how things have changed over time, and also some of the foundation, the things ... Stuff is always changing, but then there's also the principles, the things that don't really change. I'm curious about what are some of the biggest patterns of challenges and mistakes that you see artists making when it comes to PR, and publicity, and in sharing their story.

Ariel Hyatt:
So, unlike God-given musical talent, the good news about publicity and any kind of PR, and we'll talk about the differences, I know we're going to talk about the differences today, is it's learnable. It's learnable, and once you kind of get what it's all about, once the lights go on about what you can learn about it, things will shift.

Ariel Hyatt:
The mistakes I see artists make is they just don't understand how to communicate in a public relations or a publicity manner. They totally know how all you all watching, you know how to communicate your music. That's not the problem. Most of you, I think I know, because I work with tons of artists, you're really good also at communicating your brand. What do you look like? What's your color scheme? Are you funny? Are you witty? Are you dry? Are you political? Are you satirical? Are you negative?

Ariel Hyatt:
Everybody has a sort of a music brand. I think those are the two areas where artists do really well. Where they fall down is understanding how do I translate the music and the brand into a strategy for communication that is effective with the media or with anyone that you're trying to get to in the industry, because PR is just one kind of communication.

Ariel Hyatt:
I think the other thing is artists sometimes when they're trying to get publicity, they give up too easily. So, not understanding the enormous amount of work that it actually does take to get PR is the second part of the two biggest mistakes I see.

Michael Walker:
All right. Let's take a quick break from the podcast. I can tell you about a free special offer they're doing right now exclusively for our podcast listeners. So, if you get a ton of value from the show, but you want to take your music career to the next level, connect with a community of driven musicians and connect with the music mentors directly that we have on this podcast. Or if you just want to know the best way to market your music and grow an audience right now, then this is going to be perfect for you.

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Michael Walker:
So, if you're curious, and you want to take advantage of the free trial, then go click on the link in the show notes right now, you can sign up for free. From there, you can check out all the amazing contents, connect with community and sign up for the live master classes that happen every week. This is a gift for listening to our podcast supporting the show. So, don't miss it out. Go sign up for free now, and let's get back to our interview.

Michael Walker:
Yes, I've heard that analogy before in terms of communicating with different groups of people in terms of supervisors or meeting when it comes to PR. It's just a different language. You're really good at speaking English or speaking one language, but taking that and being able to actually communicate that is a skill. And it's like learning a language. You can learn another language.

Michael Walker:
For anyone who's watching this right now, who's maybe not fully clear on what exactly do you mean when you're talking about PR and publicity, and also what are the benefits of PR and publicity, how would you share like an overview of those things?

Ariel Hyatt:
I do think PR and publicity get collapse, and people think that PR is publicity and vice versa, but that is not the case. The book that I've just written is called the Ultimate Guide to Music Publicity, meaning getting mentions, getting written about, getting articles, getting interviews, getting placements on podcasts, or on playlists. That is what I think of as publicity that is sort of an artist to media of some sort. Although, the thing that has changed radically so much since I started the business is media changed from traditional, which was newspapers, television, radio, and magazines to all the other forms that we now see.

Ariel Hyatt:
PR is your public relations. What does that mean? Everyone out there is the public, relations is how you are relating to them. The PR bucket is different. It encapsulates, like you said, when you're talking to music supervisors, or if you are trying to put together a plan for connecting with fans or your social media, that is all in the PR category.

Ariel Hyatt:
The public and how you're relating, and the public is not necessarily the media. So, unfortunately, you need sort of a separate strategy for each unit of people that you're communicating with. It's very interesting. You do need to think about PR. But if you start collapsing it and not understanding the nuance between when I talk to you, it's B2B, when I talk to a fan, it's B2C.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Okay. So, it sounds like what you're saying is that PR publicity are often combined, but really, they are separate things. They're both about communicating, but they're different groups of people, which is hugely different. PR is more about public relations, kind of like a B2C, business to consumer, which is a lot different than publicity, which is a lot about communicating with the media.

Michael Walker:
What do you say are some of the things that differentiate ... What are the differences between how you might want to communicate in a PR sense from how you might want to communicate in a media sense?

Ariel Hyatt:
If you approach a music supervisor, you're talking about the tone, you're talking about the running length of your song. You're talking about how it fits in, all of that. You wouldn't send that same pitch to the media. Because when I say media, I mean, maybe like a newspaper editor, because that person is probably looking for something else. They're looking for, is there a local angle? Do you have a show? What is the story for my reader? Everybody has a different target, television or movie watchers, different target than people reading the newspaper.

Ariel Hyatt:
So, you do have to kind of take that into account and understand that your success will come when you can figure out, "Okay, this is how we communicate this way." If you have sort of an edgy approach that maybe works totally on your social media, or you're super dry and sarcastic, that might not play well with the media who doesn't understand that and who wants a more formal kind of pitch.

Ariel Hyatt:
So, you really do have to understand as well who you're speaking to. And a lot of what I talk about in the book is there's a whole section of the book called measure a lot, cut once. I see the opposite happen often with artists where they just like, "Don't measure. Vomit out whatever they can into the world." Like, "I got a media list. There's 300 people on it. I'm sending everyone the same thing."

Ariel Hyatt:
The media see right through that and they don't like it. I'd rather you pick 10 targets who you think are the perfect 10 for you, and take the time to write individual emails, pitches speaking directly to that one person. And that would be a much more effective way than blanketing the world with a semi-targeted thing.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. Now, you made me so happy when you showed that mind map. I'm a sucker for mind maps. I use them for every day. I have a mind map for a conversation, for the events. I think that my maps really reflects a lot of the ways that our mind works.

Michael Walker:
I love the quote, measure a lot for your cut. I would love to dive a little bit deeper into specifically that process of first kind of deciding how do you find out who are those 10 people who are most likely to be a good fit to reach out to.

Michael Walker:
I have an overview, I think, of the process of someone sitting down. Like I had a new song. Actually, speaking of someone who has some new music that he's going to be releasing pretty soon, I'm very curious to kind of hear how you would sit down and kind of process at a higher level, what are the stages that they should go through leading up to the release to make sure that they're doing the best job they can with communicating and finding the right publicity for them?

Ariel Hyatt:
Sure. The first thing you want to do is think about where you're at. You are at a level where you have millions of streams and a lot of followers. You have national tours under your belt. So, for you to make a target list that has sort of some major publications would not be a stretch, because you can lead your pitch with, "We have over X amount of million streams. We've toured an X amount of ... Hundreds of times around the country, et cetera."

Ariel Hyatt:
Those are accolades that larger media outlets will pick up on. That's okay. That's not to discourage you, but it is to say that when you do decide to make this target list, ask yourself and be honest with yourself. Is it your first record where you're trying to do some PR, your first single? Have you had some PR? What level are you at?

Ariel Hyatt:
So, if you're at the level, let's just say I would say that the average artist that comes to us has fewer than 10,000 followers across social channels. Maybe you have a nice 5,000 here, 3,000 there, 4,000 there, it's 10,000. That's a decent number, but that's probably not Rolling Stone numbers. It's probably not Pitchfork numbers. It's probably not some of those larger outlets that are looking for larger followings.

Ariel Hyatt:
That's the first question. How big are you? Second question, where are you from? If you're from not New York City, Chicago, San Francisco, or LA, or Nashville, you might look for your local media outlets where it would be much easier. I just moved up to a small town in western Massachusetts and I opened up my daily paper a couple months ago, and an artist who I know who lives in the next town over had an enormous double page spread all about his new album coming out, what he's up to, how he's handled this pandemic. His photos in his recording studio.

Ariel Hyatt:
I mean, it was like amazing, but we live in a small community where there's not a whole lot of artists. So, maybe that's your target. A local paper in your community. Of course, if you live in a larger city, you could try that but hard to get the new york times to pay attention when you're competing with a city of nine million people. So, that's another angle, local.

Ariel Hyatt:
Third angle, genre. What genre of music are you playing? That may not align with what genre of music some of these more trendy, buzzy blogs are covering. That has nothing to do with your talent, how good you are, how well executed the music is. But Marla Lewis, who is a beloved human in both of our worlds, she makes jazz standards. She's not going to go on Stereogum, Drowned in Sound, Pitchfork, those are inappropriate. She's making kind of a modern day female Michael Bublé vibe kind of music.

Ariel Hyatt:
So, what genre? And then what publications are in that genre? And then the next question below that is, once you've identified those publications, who are they covering? So, if I pull a whole lot of publications for Marla Lewis, and I realize this magazine and this newspaper really only covering Michael Bublé and huge, huge household name artists. Sure, I could take a stab at it, but the probability if they're really only covering Tony Bennett, the probably of them covering Marla Lewis, small.

Ariel Hyatt:
Then ask yourself and look at, "Does this publication cover emerging, my genre?" Start clicking around and looking. If you don't understand who you're talking to, you will never get the result. So, those are what you should look for and how you should begin to hone your target list. There are some amazing tools like SubmitHub, and Music Submit. Those are two wonderful platforms for less than ... I think it's about 50 bucks, really. You can submit your music to a couple of 100 outlets, and it's like a buck for each submission, but you'll get results because they'll have to give you feedback.

Ariel Hyatt:
I would say, when you're just starting out, or even after you're established, we've worked with many established artists, we put them through SubmitHub, and they have to give an answer for that dollar that you spend. So, that's another great way when you're selecting targets.

Michael Walker:
I'll make a quick note to remind myself, SubmitHub for the songs. See, that's great. I love having conversations like this, because it's a way for me to stay fresh as well. The things that I know that I should be doing, but are things that ...

Michael Walker:
It's interesting how repetition and mastery, it's not just like a one and done kind of thing. It's not like you take a bath, and then it's just like, "All right. Well, I'm done taking baths forever." That's like something that comes with repetition.

Ariel Hyatt:
That's true.

Michael Walker:
Okay. Someone is sitting here right now. They've sat down, and they've mapped out, they made a list. Let's say that this was a person who is pretty early on in their career. But let's say that they have around 10,000 followers on their social media platforms. And now, they're looking at, "Okay, I got this new release coming out, and I want to get a few publications."

Michael Walker:
So, it sounds like one of the biggest opportunities would be ... One of the mistakes is you're going for the ultimate big dog right off the bat, when they're not really covering smaller artists. But maybe a good starting point would be looking around locally and seeing some local publications and news.

Michael Walker:
So, let's say that someone makes a list and they have 10 different places. Do you think it would be a good fit to reach out to? How about from there? How do they reach out to that? What are your biggest mistakes when it comes to reaching out in a higher level view at that process?

Ariel Hyatt:
Okay. First of all, I don't want for those of you thinking like, "I'm feeling hopeless." If you have that goal, that Pitchfork is your jam, and that's where you want to be, or any of those larger blogs, absolutely send it there. 100%, take a stab at it, go for it. Follow what I'm about to say. Go for it. Don't discount it, but also add some smaller fish into your target list. I just want to say that.

Ariel Hyatt:
Okay. Next, know who you're talking to. This is the pain in the arse part of the journey. You have to actually go read those newspapers, look at those blogs, listen to those podcasts. Hilariously, I have a podcast, you've been on it. What do I do? I talk to people in the music industry, about the music industry, and about marketing, and promotion. And sometimes, I talk to artists about their extraordinary journeys with marketing and promotions.

Ariel Hyatt:
I do not play music. However, I'm on all these really bad publicists lists that send me music constantly saying, "We love to be played on your podcast." One second, listening to one episode or five seconds on the podcast page on my website would let you see I don't play music on my podcast. Not a great look.

Ariel Hyatt:
Know who you're talking to and try to find out as much as you can about them. And the book actually breaks this down. A lot of journalists playlisters, bloggers, they gave their best golden nuggets of advice about what they would like to see from an artist and what they hate to see. And what they hate to see is that canned email where you've just filled in, "Dear, Michael." And then the rest of it is clearly like they don't know you, they haven't observed what you do. They're just hitting you with a pitch.

Ariel Hyatt:
You might want to start a pitch like, "Dear, Michael. I have spent a lot of time on the modern musician website and I love what you're doing to help emerging artists, and I really think you're providing a great service to independent artists." Then you can start. You start with flattery and with understanding.

Ariel Hyatt:
Or you could say, "Hey, writer at whatever blog, fill in the blank. I noticed that you've done a great review on Tim Kyle. Tim Kyle, one of the founding members of Arcade Fire, one of my favorite bands of all times, and one of my inspirations for making music. And I think you might like my album because you reviewed Tim."

Ariel Hyatt:
Now, notice, I didn't go for Arcade Fire, they're huge, they hit the big time a long time ago. You want to find someone who's smaller or has a more niche audience. Talk to your writer, or your blogger, or your playlister about, "I really think that my song fits in perfectly on this playlist after this track." Show that you took the time.

Ariel Hyatt:
That gives the person on the other end who works very, very hard to curate whatever it is they're writing and putting into the world, it gives them a place to put you. You've invited them to put you in that place. And you've also said, "I see you, I know you, I get you, I like what you're doing, and I'm not just filling in the dear Michael line, and then sending something that's not going to be attached."

Ariel Hyatt:
So, that's the pain in the arse. That's why I say, only make 10. 10 is doable. You can listen to 10 podcasts. You could read 10 music blogs. You could look at 10 online publications and see, look back at all of their music archives and see, "Did they cover indie artists? What kind? Et cetera."

Ariel Hyatt:
I also do recommend finding an artist that's four to five years ahead of you, maybe two to four years. Maybe it was a band that you opened for or an artist that you know someone that records in the same studio as you, someone from your hometown. Don't go for the largest star from your hometown. Go for someone who's making the rounds. Google them, figure out where they've been interviewed.

Ariel Hyatt:
I run a blog on behalf of a client. It's a parenting blog, and we feature parents who make music. And on the Facebook page the other day, I got this lovely note from an artist who said, "You featured one of my very, very dear friends who is also a mommy and our daughters are in the same playgroup, and I would love to share my music with you." Immediately, that showed me that person looked, listened, knew what they were talking about and, of course, she's going to be featured on the blog. So, you can do that. That is how to connect the dots. That's my best advice as far as what you're including in your pitch.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. I mean, one gem of wisdom that I just shared to you that I want to reiterate on is the idea of ... I see this as like a foundational thing that helps in so many different ways. We talked about you're finding artists that are just ahead of you. They're just ahead of you.

Michael Walker:
I mean the biggest ones in the world, a lot of times, if we try to jump too quickly, or if we're like, "Okay, I want to be the next Bruno Mars. Okay, I just need to do what Bruno Mars is doing right now." Then there's like this disconnect, because Bruno Mars is so, so massive. And like acting like he acts right now, it's just too big of a jump.

Michael Walker:
But if you start out by being strategic about making a list of similar artists to you that are just that next step ahead, a few steps ahead. Those are also the people that you probably want to reach out to and connect with, and you more likely to actually get a hold of them and connect with them.

Michael Walker:
Constantly putting yourself in a peer group of people who are just a step ahead of you, I think, is like one of those traits that is so valuable if you're looking to make some sort of transformation or anything. And specifically, one of the takeaways for that, based on what we're talking about here is that, yeah, like you research on them, you can see what are the publications they've been on. What are they doing? What venues are they playing at?

Michael Walker:
And it definitely seems like that's the smart path forward that isn't necessarily as ... It's not like a quick, instant, get rich quick kind of thing, but it's the way that works. And that's one of the things that I appreciate about you is sharing the wisdom and the things that do work.

Michael Walker:
Sorry, I just went a little bit of a ramble there. Let's say that someone completely wraps up their release, and they got a few awesome pieces of publication and maybe from a local newspaper, maybe from a few blogs or magazine. And now, they've got some really cool write ups. What are your recommendations would be for people to really leverage those?

Ariel Hyatt:
This is the thing I also see all the time is artists ... Even artists that hire publicist, there's a whole section of the book about how to do that. If this is not your thing, you don't want to go through all this trouble of dealing with all this stuff, you can hire someone. But the publicist or you, you'll work really, really hard to get these placements.

Ariel Hyatt:
And then it's amazing. Most artists don't do what I call leverage. That is the next step in your publicity journey. Let's say you've got that article. Maybe if you're lucky, the publication will share it once. They'll make an Instagram story, or they'll post it on their Twitter feed. And that will have like, I don't know, 45 second shelf life, and then it's gone, and you're bummed. You're like, "Well, it went up." And yeah, maybe it's in the archive of that blog, but it is up to you to blow the promotional steam into the wings of this piece. You want to make it fly.

Ariel Hyatt:
Visualize it, create tiles for Twitter, for Facebook, for your Instagram. You want to choose a really nice quote, maybe a quote that the writer said about your music or about you. You want to visualize it. You want to post it on your social media. You want to make sure it's on your press kit on your website. And even more importantly, you want to share it with your fans. So, put it in a newsletter. Say, "Hey, we're so excited. The Albuquerque Journal just said this about us, which means so much to us because we're from Albuquerque."

Ariel Hyatt:
For example, also, it gets back especially in a small community, it gets back to the editor at the Albuquerque Journal that this band wrote about them in their newsletter, and mentioned and tagged them on their social sites. This is actually a way of, A, continuing to promote the great promotion you got. B, saying thank you to the people who took the time to write about you. And C, you can strategically use this for leverage.

Ariel Hyatt:
So, not only do you want to put it on your socials and make a press page on your website and include there, but you might also create a separate email list of local promoters or people that you would like venues you might want to plan. And when you get a beautiful article or a great moment. It could even be like a social media moment. You post something, it goes viral for us. I'm not talking about viral like 10 million people saw it, but I think if 300 or 400 people see a post on Facebook, in today's no organic pickup reach reality, that's a nice amount of people.

Ariel Hyatt:
You could take a screenshot of that and say, "I posted this recently and 400 people took the time to share it. And I wanted to show you, this is the kind of reach I have." You could send that to a promoter. You could send that to a booking agent. You could send that to the local festival that has that second stage you've been trying to get on and they won't give you the time of day because they're owned by an obnoxiously large conglomerate that only seems to book major artists and say, "Hey, I just want you to see, we're working really hard in our local community."

Ariel Hyatt:
I talk about specifically one artist in my book, his name is Al Laughlin. And Al is from Denver. He was in a band when I started out 25 years ago called The Samples. They were very big from the Boulder, Colorado area. Many, many years later, he's not in a band anymore, but he's got his own solo project. He called me up. He's like, "I can't really get a lot of gigs." I said, "Well, that's ridiculous. You were as famous as famous gets in the Colorado mountain town area."

Ariel Hyatt:
We put together a strategy. And the strategy was, every time he got a piece of press that we generated for him, he put it in an email and sent it to all the local promoters and said, "Hey, I just want to show you, the Denver Post, the Colorado Daily, the local music blogs here in Colorado are covering me. Every time, we'll always send it out to my community of people. I will work just as hard for you as you will for me, if you'll take a gamble on booking me." And it worked. He got more gigs.

Ariel Hyatt:
Because if it's between a booking agent, you and 25 other people that want the gig, you want to give the gig to the person that's letting you know, "I've got a publicist or I will do my own publicity. I will push this. I will be sure to go the extra mile to help promote any show that I'm booked on." That is called strategic publicity enhancement right there, leverage.

Michael Walker:
I love that. It's so good. And I feel like as is common with most people who achieve mastery in a sort of topic, it's something that just sort of ... It's ingrained in their DNA or it's something that's reflected in everything they do.

Michael Walker:
As you were just describing that, one thing that came to mind was your book and the quote that you reached out to that was on the back of the book. It's not necessarily like it's like a media publication, like I have a newspaper or something, but we have an audience. With the quote, when you shared it, that makes me feel really good.

Michael Walker:
I'm like, "That's cool. It's got my voice on it. And everything that I'm sharing is 100% true and from my heart." But I could see how as you're describing really leveraging the content from when you share ... When you do get a newspaper article or you get a nice quote, or you get something from someone. You're actually leveraging that and sharing that and using it and putting in front of your people as a great way to make them feel appreciated. And that's going to build a deeper relationship with them. And being able to leverage that as well for the other people you're reaching out to is awesome.

Ariel Hyatt:
And think about it. Let's remove that from the publicity bucket and put it in the PR bucket. You can do this with another band. You can do this with anyone. Maybe the local radio station in your hometown won't play your stuff because it's a commercial station and you're not ready for that. You could certainly ask the program director to give you a quote about your song or about your band if they saw you or know you in some way. And you can say, "The program director for WKRP said this about me." And you can put that on your website.

Ariel Hyatt:
You can ask that band that you open for or that producer that you worked with, or the person that owns the recording studio that you spent a lot of money at, or any of that and say, "Hey, I'd really, really appreciate it if you'd give me a quote." This is how businesses work. Whenever I do business with really great people, they will often call me and say, "Just think about your LinkedIn endorsements." People ask all the time, like, "Hey, you've worked with me, you had an experience with me, would you mind giving me a testimonial?" You can ask for that. That is another form of PR.

Ariel Hyatt:
I think artists don't think to do that. You could even just send an email out to your mailing list and say, "Hey, we would love to hear what you think. Would you give us a quote about what you thought of our live show or what you think of our new single?" And then you can use those in your social media and shine a light right back onto your fans. It's a wonderful thing to do, and that fits in the PR bucket, and it's leveraged.

Ariel Hyatt:
If Michael said that about me, or if Claire said that about me, people always believe what other people say more than they believe what you say. So, having a quote, even if it's from your mom, is the way of saying something that doesn't come straight from you where the person goes, "Oh, look at that person bragging about. They sound like Sting." But if someone else says you sound like Sting, and that's who you want to sound like, that's pretty awesome. Get that in writing.

Michael Walker:
I love that. Yeah, I love that idea too of talking, asking, reaching out to your fans and asking them for a quote. It seems like really awesome on multiple levels, because one, you're connecting with your audience. For people who haven't necessarily really listened to the song or thought about the song enough to give a detailed quote on it, they might be listening to the song for the first time even and actually listen to it.

Michael Walker:
And then think thinking about it and thinking, "Hmm, what are my thoughts on this?" There's so much engagement and just interaction there that happens from just asking for the quote, and then being able to leverage that and be able to shine a light on them. Brilliant. Yeah, that's one of those gold nuggets that I just thought of this [crosstalk 00:37:53].

Ariel Hyatt:
Bang. Just one other thing. We're not really talking about email newsletters right now, but when you send an email and you ask all your fans, "Hey, could you say something about what you think?" When they write you back, that's an invitation to have an even deeper communication with a potential fan that could become a superfan, that could become the next person that says, "Hey, come play in my backyard." Or, "Hey, will you play in my wedding?" Or, "Hey, will you write me a song for my daughter's birthday?" Or, "Hey, I love your stuff, can I buy your merch?"

Ariel Hyatt:
Unless you have a deeper relationship with them, you are never going to have the opportunity to go deeper. So, actually asking for them to say something about something is an amazing way to just begin to get the door open a little bit.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. You got my brain turning right now too. One of the things that we're really starting to focus on at Modern Musician and with the messenger strategy and everything is this idea of what we call hyper in tune surveys, which in a nutshell is just getting on Zoom meetings, Zoom conversations with your fans and asking them some questions about your music and about your offers and things that you're working on.

Michael Walker:
And if they're interested in any of the things in particular, then you can give them some sort of special deal or something on the conversation. And the point of it isn't necessarily to ... It's not like a conversation where the point of it is to like sell them something. But a lot of times, it kind of turns into that organically. When we've had several artists who've made sales for $3,000 plus to fans through this process, I'm just getting on Zoom conversations.

Ariel Hyatt:
Yeah. It's a beautiful thing. I'm you're asking someone. It's like, "Come, be in my inner circle." As you're saying that, it reminds me of my client, Sally Taylor, who I've worked for her for 21 years. She's the daughter of James Taylor and Carly Simon. She's an amazing woman.

Ariel Hyatt:
Years ago, before she put out her second record, she invited 15 of us to a friend's house, and we all sat in a big circle. She cooked us a fabulous dinner. And we all had our dinner, and then she pulled out her guitar and she played a bunch of songs from her forthcoming record. And she asked each one of us, "What do you think of this song? Would you put the bridge here? would you change this here?"

Ariel Hyatt:
I remember that so vividly to be in ... I worked for her, so it was different, but all those people remember that so vividly. It was such a moment. That's like the virtual way of doing it that you're suggesting. It's brilliant. Imagine in 10 years, when you get to the next level, or in five years or tomorrow, whenever, those fans that joined that Zoom call will always be able to say, "I was part of your journey."

Ariel Hyatt:
That's all fans want to be is part of the journey. And if you don't give them that golden opportunity to be part of it, you're totally missing out. So, I love that idea. And imagine all the great feedback you get and all the characters you get to meet. The people that will come to join those. I would love to join one of those Zooms just to see what they look like with some of your artists, because that's such a cool thing.

Michael Walker:
Man, as you're sharing that story about the 15 of you circle around playing the songs, getting feedback, that gave me goosebumps. That's a really cool idea. I think that's another jam for people. I mean, especially when things start to open back up, being able to actually invite 15 of your most supportive fans to actually come to a place where you cook dinner for them, and you get their feedback on the songs. It's so cool.

Michael Walker:
I think that one of the biggest benefits of doing this, and the reason that I even thought about this was because what you mentioned about doing that initial reach out email to your audience. I think anyone that has an email list can do this today is send out an email that says, "Hey, I'm looking for some quotes for my song that I can feature on my website. And if you're open to being featured on my website, could you give me some lines in response to the song?"

Michael Walker:
And then like you're saying, as they start responding, that creates this open door opportunity where you're having this conversation. They just listen to the music, they actually put some thought and engagement into it. They feel this connection with you because you're actually listening to them, and you're asking them.

Michael Walker:
And then for the people, as many people as you'd like to, you say, "Hey, thank you so much. You're awesome. Thank you so much for giving me some feedback. By the way, I'd love to connect a little bit more and dive deeper and ask you some more questions. Would you be open to hopping on a Zoom call sometime so we can talk more?" It's like boom, that's like a perfect segue.

Michael Walker:
That's why I started thinking about the Zoom calls and hyper in tune surveys. I think there's an aspect to it. One of the biggest benefits is just that the connection and the feedback, it seems like ... I would love to hear your thoughts on this, Ariel, but it seems like one of the biggest challenges for musicians, especially somewhat earlier on when they haven't really built up much of a presence yet online, is this feeling of lack of connection or lack of engagement. And feeling like they're just kind of putting something out, but they're not really getting much response. There's just like a lack of feedback.

Michael Walker:
I feel like having this sort of direct connection was sort of like ... We learned so much through our ability to communicate one on one with people. It's just how we talk. And by seeing someone's face as we describe something that we might realize like, "Oh, I'm boring someone, I'm talking too much." Or you might realize, "Oh, they're riveted. They're paying really close attention. This is interesting."

Michael Walker:
II think having those conversations is really a great way to get some real feedback on somebody that have different ideas, different songs that you're working on, difference things, different offers. I just love the idea of connecting what you just shared with that idea of having those conversations.

Ariel Hyatt:
Yeah. Which is why we love your technique here. I mean, yes, it's a bot, and we're honest that it's a bot. And we know that it's not you, but those little seeds that you're planting with potential fans can turn into these relationships. But I do also want to say something because I do ...

Ariel Hyatt:
I have worked with a lot of artists, and there is a little bit of resistance. Sometimes it's resistance, and sometimes they literally don't think about this. They call me up, they're in a panic. They don't have any fans yet. I think social media is doing us a tremendous disservice in the sheer knowledge of how many billions of people are on the other end of that bullhorn.

Ariel Hyatt:
You post something on Facebook, you know there's two billion people on Facebook. You post something on any of these platforms, hundreds of millions of people. That's a lot of pressure. Not that hundreds of millions of people will see your stuff, but they could. It could go viral.

Ariel Hyatt:
My three words of wisdom for people that are like, "Well, I'm not Michael and I haven't toured. I don't have that. I didn't tour back in the day." All the tape you're playing about why it's not working for you but somehow it seems to work for other people. Three words, start at home.

Ariel Hyatt:
So many artists do not start at home. They go looking out into the world to see, "I want to get that person and that random person. And everyone that loves Sade will love me." Or whatever crazy thing you're making up. What about your cousin? What about your best friend from high school? What about your mom?

Ariel Hyatt:
Literally, my mom is on my email list. Today, she's hysterical. I talked to her today. She's 86. Someone checks email for her. She's not into that. But she said, "You have a book coming out." I said, "Yes, I do." "Someone had to read your newsletter." Hilarious, but she's on my list. You have to have your people be your closest allies to begin with. And if you don't have enough guts to ask your people, your best friends, your cousins, your mom, your college roommate, the acquaintances you have to get on your email list, you're going to have a huge amount of confronting stuff going on when it comes to getting just those random people out in the world who don't know you at all.

Ariel Hyatt:
So, start at home, build from home. Those 15 people sitting in Sally's living room, or in Sally's friend's living room, they were all people we knew. They were in our circle, and they are people who, to this day, still are on her list. I still see them post back when she posts on Facebook. Those are her core people.

Ariel Hyatt:
I love to talk about ... I like Billy Joel. I come from New York City. Don't judge me if you're like not into him, just understand that the man is a legend. If you're a New Yorker, you go to something called Madison Square Garden, you see him. Hopefully, that will happen again soon. And it's fantastic if you're into that kind of thing.

Ariel Hyatt:
I go to Madison Square Garden, and there, and it's a scene. It's a real New York thing. And who's in the front row at a Billy Joel concert? His daughter, many of his ex-wives, including Christie Brinkley, the mother of one of his children. People that you recognize, other celebrities who you know. These are his people. His ex-wife is there, cheering him on.

Ariel Hyatt:
When I saw that, it made me feel so good about like, yes, after all these years ... I mean, I also have the privilege of knowing a lot of people who tour with enormously famous artists and bands. And the thing that I know about you two, about Dave Matthews, about Madonna, about my friends all go on tour with these people, because we all started in a tiny venue called the Fox Theater in Boulder, Colorado. And a lot of those guys are now sound guys, and lighting guys, and rigging guys, and they go out in the world, and I get to go backstage and see.

Ariel Hyatt:
And what I've learned is those core people still travel with the band. All those years later. That should never be discounted. Those are the people who are your initial PR people. So, for those of you that really do struggle, like Michael was saying with like, "How do I get my first core fans?" Don't be afraid to start at home, because those are the people who ...

Ariel Hyatt:
There is a problem when you start at home, you don't begin to get more fans eventually. That's a Seth Godin conversation, but you definitely don't want to be hesitant about having your people come along for the ride. Even if they're not really into the music, they're probably into you if they're your friend, for some reason or another. It's important.

Michael Walker:
I love that so much. I got goosebumps several times throughout that conversation. Start with home. I want to get a coffee mug with that. That's on the coffee mug. That's so important. What it reminds me of is the roots of a tree almost. Starting with home, your roots.

Michael Walker:
Like you had mentioned, it's not necessarily like all you're going to do is stick with those people, and friends and family, and that thing in and of itself. Some of the people that you reach out to that are in your inner circle may or may not be come along for the ride. They may not be people who are really that interested in supporting you and supporting your music, and that's totally cool. But starting there is so empowering and bringing those people in.

Michael Walker:
And there are going to be those people who are super into it and super supportive. Maybe they're really into the music. And maybe at the beginning they're just really supportive of you and your music career. But that's a really great lesson, a really great reminder to come back to that and to come back to your roots. Figure out what is home and who are those people.

Michael Walker:
Also, it does bring up some ... I feel like there's a bit of resistance or a bit of fear that comes up almost from being seen or bringing that up to your friends and your family. So, I'm here to hear your thoughts on, is that something that you ...

Michael Walker:
How would you speak to ... Well, this is a good thing to talk about in general. With anything like publicity or exposure, being seen, being heard more fully, I feel like there's a natural feeling of fear that kind of happens if you're being seen. What are your thoughts around that feeling of fear and resistance for anyone that maybe have some of that?

Michael Walker:
They're getting ready to release some songs. They're like, "Whoo, I kind of want to put it out. I want to share with my friends and my family and other people, but I'm kind of dragging my feet because I want to make sure I'm doing it right and it's perfect." What would your advice be for them?

Ariel Hyatt:
This is really an important thing, because it's not a secret that a vast majority, I think it's 65% to 70% of all artists have some sort of mental health thing going on. And mental health, one of the categories is social anxiety, or anxiety in general.

Ariel Hyatt:
I think when you're going to put yourself out into the world, it is anxiety provoking, in any form or fashion. That's why social media makes us feel terrible about ourselves. This is facts. I'm not making up anything. This is why young people like 10, 11, 12, 13 years old should not be on social media. It is killing our youth.

Ariel Hyatt:
Know that there is a component around that anxiety and that stress around putting yourself out there. And I think for some people, it feels more comfortable to put yourself out there in front of people that you don't know. Like you were saying, sometimes the people in your life who should be perceived as, there are magical people out there that have incredible parents that support every single thing they do. And then there's a lot of people that do not have that, for whatever reason. Don't put your mom on your mailing list if you know that's not going to be a good thing, but find someone, someone in your camp.

Ariel Hyatt:
I have a client right now and he's really a challenging client, because he doesn't want any of his friends or family to know anything about his music. He's like, "I feel like it makes me look desperate, it makes me look thirsty, it makes me look stupid." He just has all these stories about why he doesn't want to go there. And I get it, but I also get that he's a great human and a nice person. It's really, really hard to coach someone that's so hell bent against wanting to be seen.

Ariel Hyatt:
Okay, it's happening to us. I think in some form or fashion, all of us have those moments where like it just feels too big. But what's really interesting to me about artists is they create music and they have a desire to share it and know your comfort zone. You don't have to do all the things.

Ariel Hyatt:
It's funny. The other day, I was on the phone with a client and she said to me, "Do I have to be on TikTok?" And I was like, "Oh, hell no, you don't have to be on TikTok. Be on TikTok if TikTok ..." "I'm not on TikTok. It doesn't resonate with me. I'm not funny and quirky like that. I can't edit videos really fast. I'm a woman of a certain age, I have to put makeup on. I have to have an angle. I can't do it. It's not my thing. I'd rather just be on Clubhouse because I love to talk. And I love when other people talk to me. So, Clubhouse is my jam, and TikTok is not a jam, and that's okay."

Ariel Hyatt:
Figure out where you're comfortable in those zones. Instagram, I think, for many, many people is not a great ... It's funny. Artists love it so much, because artists are visual, it makes perfect sense. It's much easier to take a photo than it is sometimes to come up with a lot of text or copy. But for some, that might not be your platform, because you don't want to post selfies. It's not your thing. So, understand your limits.

Ariel Hyatt:
I am not a big fan of leaning into what makes you feel super uncomfortable. You do have to choose something if you'd like your music out into the world. Your path doesn't have to be Eli Lev's path. It doesn't have to be Zach King's path. Everybody has their own path, and it shows up the way it shows up for everyone in their own unique way.

Ariel Hyatt:
And part of what I love about working with musicians is we don't force them to take castor oil if they're not into it. If that's not your thing, I'm not going to force you. I probably will force you to try to use your email list, but everything else, if you don't like it, you don't have to do it. So, I would say, when all those feelings are coming up of like, "This is just such a no for me." You don't have to do it. Hundreds of millions of people on every platform. Facebook is not your thing for whatever reason, there's other things to choose.

Ariel Hyatt:
So, that's my advice as far as that. Yes, there's going to be uncomfortable moments and haters got to hate. There will always be someone that's not in love and thrilled with what you do, but that's okay. Because for every person that's not in love, there will be someone who is, and it's about finding those people and nurturing those relationships and connections.

Ariel Hyatt:
And don't worry about those other ones. Although, I will say one more thing. A negative comment, a negative interaction online, this is science, it resonates 35 times more deeply and more painfully than a positive one. So, just take a moment to take that in. 35 times. To some moron, write something off color on Facebook feed, or they don't like something or they hit ... This happened to me the other day. I sent out my email about my book that I'm so excited, so proud of, and I'm showing it off. And he wrote back, "I already bought it. Why did I get this email again?" He's furious with me.

Ariel Hyatt:
"Thank you for buying it. I'm really sorry. I had trouble filtering my email list because I don't quite know how to use ConvertKit. Please forgive me this one time. Don't send me hate mail." And then he went back. He's like, "I didn't know you'd actually answer." And I was like, "Dude." I think that's that's the other piece to that. If someone says something off color or horrible, it's an opportunity. Of course, if they say something like disgusting or racist, you just block them. But if they say something that's questionable, you might just respond because I think we've all forgotten that there's a human on the other end of those communications.

Ariel Hyatt:
He really thought he was just going to respond and be pissy in that email. He probably had a really hard day, and he probably felt underappreciated, because he already bought my book and sent me an email saying he did and he was annoyed. I get it. Even to say, "My bad. I'm sorry. Sorry you didn't like it." Don't start a war with them. Don't talk politics. That never seems to go anywhere in 2020 or 2021. But if something mundane, let people know you're a human and you're there, because that can also shift them immediately.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. Yeah, there's certainly a superpower and the ability to acknowledge, or appreciate, or shine a light on ... I mean, especially when it's someone ... I think this is a super good practice with your audience or with your fan base. If someone does something that helps you out or someone purchased a merchandise bundle or something like that, giving them a shout out and saying, "Thank you so much. I appreciate you. You're awesome." Really, I think kind of cements and celebrates and reinforces. It makes them feel good. It makes them feel appreciated.

Michael Walker:
And then also on the flip side, troll, hater, the one who's questionable, I agree. I tend to lean in the direction of someone who has a bunch of negativity and hatred and toxic. I'm like, "All right, well, see you later." I don't need that in my life.

Ariel Hyatt:
It's not going to be your client anyway. The person that's writing back, "Your stuff is really expensive." "Yes, it is, and that's why I have free articles. There's 400 of them. Please go read them. You are never going to hire me in the first place. I don't care if you think I'm expensive. Sorry. Find someone that's not expensive and work with them. What can I tell you?" But to get all upset about that is going to be a waste of your time. It just is.

Ariel Hyatt:
Lean in lightly to that kind of stuff. I love Seth Godin, I always said. The reason why he doesn't have comments turned on, on his blog, and he gets millions of readers, is and I quote, "I don't want people to pee-pee my pool." He's like, "This is my pool. I'm sharing my ideas and my thoughts. I am not interested in your ideas and your thoughts, because it's my blog, it's my pool." I don't recommend shutting off all comments, because you do want to have some form of human interaction. But again, like Michael said, If someone is slightly hating, you don't have to take the bait. You can just press the block button.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it seems like it's one of our core human needs is to be recognized, appreciated, seen, heard. I think generally, being able to offer those things to people and genuinely ... I think that column go way back to when we were talking about reaching out to people. Just a blanket statement where clearly, it's just like copy and paste and there's nothing to it. It's like the lack of recognition and being seen and being heard. And that doesn't feel good.

Michael Walker:
All of us thrive on being appreciated, being seen, being heard. I think learning how to authentically give that to people is one of the most valuable things that you can offer to your fans too and an awesome thing to cultivate.

Ariel Hyatt:
I think also for musicians, from a musician standpoint ... I'm not a musician, but I do know thousands of them, and both of my parents are artists. So, I feel like I really kind of grew up in this and understanding about this. If you are putting yourself out there, your need is deeper than the average person's for that. Or else, you would just record music in your basement and you would put it in a closet, you would never play it for anyone. That's called something different.

Ariel Hyatt:
When you have that need, often times, there's such an attachment to, "How is it landing? How is it feeling? What's going on with it?" You forget everybody has that need. And like you just said, your fans have that need. The guy that writes up the newspaper has that need. To be seen. And some of us build platforms, and we're seeing much more often than others, but all of the people that are running blogs or have playlists, they are also running platforms, and they also want to be seen.

Ariel Hyatt:
So, by thinking that they're going to give you something without that reciprocal relationship of I see you, you see me, it's a two way street. That's back to the first question you asked is like, "What's the biggest mistake that artists make??" I believe that's the biggest one is you're not seeing.

Ariel Hyatt:
I want to add one more quick thing. The music business of the past, which we build. And I love that you talk about this, because I also love to talk about this. The music business of the '60s, the '70s. I'm talking about the Hendrixs, and the Joplins, and the Led Zeppelins. Those artists, those icons, those people never had to deal with what you have to deal with as an artist. There wasn't social media.

Ariel Hyatt:
The reason why all those hair metal bands in the '80s got away with shagging every woman that came across their paths was because there was not 6,000 people with cameras at every possible turn taking photos where they could bust you for being disgusting. You can't get away that stuff now.

Ariel Hyatt:
So, this vision of I want to be like Jimmy Page, I want to be like Hendrix, I want to be like Joplin, I want to be like Aretha. They came up in a world where they didn't have to do all this stuff. Many of them had almost zero connection to their fans. They didn't have to. It was a different paradigm.

Ariel Hyatt:
I know we're coming to the end of this, but I just want to presence that for those of you that have hero worship, and we should. I think we should all have those artists who are our pinnacle artists, our ultimate artists. But if you're thinking about like an Eric Clapton's relationship personally to the thousands of people that followed him, it doesn't exist for him. It's a different paradigm.

Ariel Hyatt:
I think getting that we're in a new world now, look at how Justin Bieber does it. Look at how Taylor Swift does it. Look at how these younger artists that really understand, directly communicating with people on social media, those are the ones to look at. You might still love Jimmy Page. That's cool. But looking at them as your model on how they did it, it's going to get you into a lot of trouble from a PR and publicity standpoint.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. That's so good. I think I'm going to intentionally make sure that this is the only time I use this analogy throughout the event, because this is one of my favorite analogies. I could probably bring it up in every conversation.

Michael Walker:
The analogy that comes to mind when you describe that idea of not necessarily doing what worked 60 years ago, because that was a different time, is the analogy that we're all basically surfers. And there's these different waves of things that happen. And if we happen to catch the momentum of a wave that's kind of like currently cresting, they can give us a big boost and we can shoot forward. We get a bunch of momentum from it.

Michael Walker:
But it seems like a lot of times, what's happening is people are looking at a wave that's already passed in 30 years ago, 60 years ago, and try to catch up with this wave and exhausting all this energy and trying to catch up with the wave that's already passed. Or even one that's a year ago. Things change pretty quickly. There's a lot of different waves.

Michael Walker:
There's so much power that can come from being willing to ... You have to acknowledge uncertainty, because with a wave that hasn't come yet, I mean, it hasn't come yet, so it's not as crystal clear. In hindsight, everything is 20/20, but the trends that are coming right now, the cresting waves are the things that you can kind of feel. You can kind of feel like, "Oh, this is about to happen." And you kind of look back. You'll be like, "Hmm, based on all these things happened, it seems like there's this wave coming."

Michael Walker:
Being able to swim along with that and catch that, and you get this huge boost of momentum. I think it's like a really powerful skillset is learning how to ride those waves based on right now, what are the cresting waves. While also acknowledging that all waves are made up of the same matter. They're all water, and there's principles, and there's things that don't ever change. There's timeless things that always work.

Michael Walker:
But at the same time, there's always new ways, new tactics, new strategies, things. And that learning to see those and to swim along with them, even though that they haven't necessarily happened yet can be a really powerful model to use.

Ariel Hyatt:
Yeah. I think you just nailed why I've managed to stay in business for 25 years, regardless of what the waves present. And that is what we teach no matter what form it comes in is how to be excellent at communicating. That is a skill, that it doesn't matter where you are.

Ariel Hyatt:
And there's 11 artists in my book. Eli Lev being one of them. For those of you who know him in the modern musician community, there's huge breakout pages, several pages long for some of the artists that talk about the journey that they went on, and they exemplify excellent and mastery of their specific area of communication.

Ariel Hyatt:
For some, it's about getting publicity. For some, it's about getting house concerts. For some, it's about getting your tribe like Eli. His is all about his tribe that comes along for the ride and supports him over and over and over in whatever he does. And he has no problem asking them, because they're so thrilled to be along for the ride.

Michael Walker:
He just did a $15,000 Kickstarter successfully just a few weeks ago.

Ariel Hyatt:
I know.

Michael Walker:
That's awesome.

Ariel Hyatt:
I contributed. Amazing, right? When you think about all of the successful people that you see now in music in some form or fashion, they have an area of mastery in communication. There's many types, and that's what that mind map is about. Please come and download it. I would love to give it to you. It's part of the book. That's the mastery that we're talking about. And that is what will allow you to ride all of those waves.

Ariel Hyatt:
Yes, you might have to learn. "Oh, here comes the playlisting wave. Here comes the damn TikTok wave." There's going to be the waves that are annoying that will force you into being adaptable. But if you already know excellent communication and there's, of course, other things to know, those waves as they come at you, you're going to ride them out so much better.

Michael Walker:
That's powerful. That's such a good advice. Awesome. All right. Well, Ariel, thank you so much again for coming on the conference. It's always a pleasure to talk with you. Congratulations on releasing a new book. It's an honor to being able to quote it on the book. And number one, that's incredible.

Michael Walker:
And for anyone who's listening to this, I know we've talked about it throughout the interview, but if you haven't yet, make sure to definitely go check out the book. Really great stuff. Ariel is a gentle human being and she's been ...

Michael Walker:
Not only have you been doing this 25 years, but what you just said about being able to adapt and to be able to grow through that, that's something that's super rare. I think that's almost like ... You don't see that very often. And I think the only way that you're able to do that is by being really centered in both the fundamentals, and being a master at that. You said it's about communication, but also a willingness to have perspective and to be able to let go and to be able to adapt. I think it takes a lot of character. So, I appreciate what you're doing, and thank you so much for being on the conference this year.

Ariel Hyatt:
Thank you so much for having me. It's my favorite time of year. Please also come download that communications map and get on my email list. I promise I won't annoy you. I love to communicate with people that way as well. Thank you for having me, Michael.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, you got it. Thanks for being a part of it. Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today. And if you want to support the podcast, then there's few ways to help us grow.

Michael Walker:
First, if you hit subscribe, then I'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends on your social media, tag us. That really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take the music career to the next level. The time to be a modern musician is now, and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.