Harriet JW:
... And from an artist point of view, I think it's about having these conversations, mixing with people outside of the circles that you might normally not mix with, and trying to see other artists as other people trying to do the same thing as you, and that doesn't mean that their competition, and trying to have that abundant view of the world, that there is enough for everybody of whatever the resource might be that you're after, whether it's getting signed by a label or whether it's some money, like having this view that there is enough to go around and the best way that we can access it is to collaborate and help each other.

Michael Walker:
It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician and slowly getting better. If you have high-quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we'll show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry, and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

Michael Walker:
All right, so I'm excited to be here today with Harriet JW. Harriet is the founder of Secret Sessions, which is a UK-based music platform that features intimate unplugged performances. They work with hundreds of influential artists and creators like Kacey Musgraves, Ed Sheeran, Bastille, Passenger, Mahalia. She's also the founder of an organization called Girls to the Front, which is a platform for equal rights for women in the music industry.

Michael Walker:
Today I thought it would be great to have a conversation about what are some steps that we can take to improve things in the music industry, both in terms of specifically as it relates to equal rights for women, but also more generally as an artist, what are some ways that you can build a sustainable career, which also is something that's really, really challenging, I think, for a lot of artists. So, Harriet, thanks so much for taking the time to be here today.

Harriet JW:
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk to you. I've admired your work for a long time, so it's good to chat in this format.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. I'm excited. So to start out with, I'd love to hear a little bit more just about your story and how you got started with Secret Sessions.

Harriet JW:
Yeah, cool. So I was a filmmaker initially. So I left art school with a camera on my back and looking for people to film, essentially, and I'd really fallen in love with the YouTube format when I was at university.

Harriet JW:
So I was finishing university around when YouTube launched in 2007. So I saw YouTube as a way to get directly into people's homes, straight to an audience, because I studied at an art college called Saint Martins in London. I did film, but I was placed with real artsy art people, and they all wanted to show in galleries and white spaces. I was like, "This YouTube thing's amazing. You can get right to people's homes all over the world." I loved that idea.

Harriet JW:
I've also fallen in love with music as a format with visual music. So I was never like a muso as such. I was never in bands. I never played instruments. But what I loved was the way that music made people feel. When you coupled that with visual, I just thought it was an amazing thing. So I always wanted to make video for music.

Harriet JW:
So that's what led me to going out and filming musicians basically and putting them on YouTube. In those early days, there wasn't lots of people doing this, and it meant that I got access to lots and lots of artists that right now might be a bit harder to get access to. Some of those artists became very famous, as you've just listed, and a really nice community built on YouTube. So that's how Secret sessions all began. It was like that for the first five years of its existence.

Michael Walker:
That's awesome. Yeah, it certainly is a pretty amazing breakthrough, just the internet in general, especially at the time of recording this, we just are on the tail end, knock on wood, of the pandemic. Can you imagine the world, like what it would have been like, as challenging as it was, and we had Zoom, we had virtual ways to stay connected, ways to build community still? But if we didn't have the internet and YouTube and different platforms that allow us to connect, I can only imagine how much more challenging it would be.

Michael Walker:
So it sounds like you really were able to take this innovation as a way for artists to connect more directly with a community, with an audience, and to be the forthbringer of that movement. How about Girls to the Front? Can you talk a little bit about that organization being formed? How did that come about after Secret Sessions?

Harriet JW:
Yeah. So Secret Sessions then became a live event and we were running that live event for the second half of Secret Sessions' existence, which again was five years. We've been around for 10 years. So as the pandemic hit, we were suddenly left with no activity basically, because my existence with organizing and putting on live shows. I was the host. I was the booker for the talents. My life was very centered around these live shows that we did.

Harriet JW:
So I suddenly had some time on my hands. I knew how the artists community would be feeling, and I wanted to do something about it. I was already passionate about the gender narrative within the music industry here in the UK, and it will be much the same way where you're from. But, statistically, it's 20% of artists that are signed to labels are women or non-binary artists. So you're 80% less likely to be signed if you're a woman.

Harriet JW:
So that disadvantage that already exists for women coupled with the pandemic, I was like, "Right. I need to do something for the artist community, but I want to do something specifically for women."

Harriet JW:
So Girls to the Front, in the beginning, was literally just a series of Zoom calls. So we'd meet twice a week. Once would be a creative crit. So I went to art school and we had these things called crits where you'd bring your work and everyone would talk, hopefully, positively about what you were doing and you'd get constructive criticism. So that was a really nice closed creative session just with the talent and they really got to know each other.

Harriet JW:
Then on a Thursday, we'd bring in someone from the outside, so someone from Spotify, someone from Google to ... Of course, they were all sitting at home as well. So we got really good access to industry people to come and talk to the artists as well.

Harriet JW:
Then from there, it's just slowly grown as the world starts to open up, as Secret Sessions were putting on a festival this summer and Girls to the Front is programming a stage, and a lot of the community have now worked together and played on each other's tracks. It's just sort of I'm allowing it to become its own platform.

Harriet JW:
Then alongside that, we have a lot of development programs, again, for women specifically. Yeah, it's happily taking over my life.

Michael Walker:
That's awesome. I love that idea. And a great way to take this movement, this momentum that you built, and the pandemic happens, you can't do live shows. But it sounds like a core behind both of them has really been leveraging these communities and bring people together. It reminds me of the mastermind principle from Napoleon Hill, Think and Grow Rich. There's a lot of different examples of "masterminds" and just the power of bringing together a group of people.

Michael Walker:
I love the idea with crits, like bringing them together to network with each other, to give each other feedback. So I mean it's certainly a big topic, a big discussion to dive into because I think it's certainly reflected in the music industry, with 20% of signed artists being women and other examples of inequality. It's not just in the music industry, but just as part of a deeper root issue.

Michael Walker:
I'm curious, obviously it's a big issue, what are some of the steps that you think are important in order to help to start to deal with that inequality?

Harriet JW:
Yeah, it's a massive question that has a lot of layers. It's a question that I get asked a lot, and I think it almost needs to come from the top and the bottom at the same time. I think it's quite easy to always turn to education at the bottom and always say something needs to be healed from the bottom up. But ultimately it is the people at the top that have the control over these decisions.

Harriet JW:
Yes, the people at the top will be guided by the fans and money, who's buying what, but people are steered by the marketing budgets of the labels. So if all you're getting served is young men, then essentially that's what you're going to buy and that's what fans are going to want. It just becomes this vicious cycle.

Harriet JW:
So there's definitely a lot of work to be done at the top and people need to sacrifice some of their bottom line at some point, to take a risk and sign more women and things like that, and publicize more female artists, that they get seen more and played more on radio and put on more festival lineups. But, equally, a lot needs to happen at the bottom as well.

Harriet JW:
So one thing that I realized from running Girls to the Front is how a lot of these artists, because of what's happening at the top, just see each other as competition. They don't work together. Some of them would have said in our meetings, "I've just realized I don't even know any other women in the music industry. Every recording studio I've been has been all men. I've never collaborated with another woman."

Harriet JW:
Just by creating these spaces that allowed them to meet and see each other as human beings and not as one of the other 20% that might take their spot, it really allowed people to form communities.

Harriet JW:
I think the other really exciting approach, and it's a space that I know you work in, is allowing artists to see that there is another option and you don't have to be controlled by any of these businesses that are going to put you in one of these low percentages. Actually, you can have the control of your own career. You don't need to have a record label and you can make money as an artist, whether you're a man, woman, whatever.

Harriet JW:
So, yeah, there's a lot of different angles. From a fan perspective, fans need to be more open to looking beyond the trending music and finding artists that they want to support and supporting them in other ways than just streaming their music on Spotify.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. That's so good. I love the way you described it. It has a lot of layers to it and you don't think that necessarily comes from the bottom, but also comes from the top as well. It makes me think of the chicken and the egg analogy. It's like what came first, chicken or egg? Well, they come up together at the same time.

Michael Walker:
It sounds like what you're saying is that, in the short term, it might mean ... Because there's a vicious cycle to it, because I think that this is one point that I hear sometimes in having discussions like this. I think the fact that we can even have a discussion like this right now is a step in the right direction. It's like the first step is just awareness, just talking through things and having honest discussions and learning.

Michael Walker:
But there's been some discussions I've had, and this is something that goes deeper than ... I mean it's both along with equal rights for women, but also in terms of racism and different topics that are, in a similar vein, underrepresentation. One objection that I hear sometimes is that, "Well, I don't really look at man or woman. I don't really look at race. I just choose the person who's the best fit for the job or as the most qualified," or whatnot.

Michael Walker:
I'm sure that there could be a very similar argument for choosing more men than women for record labels. It's like, "Well, we're just going to go with what the people want. We're going to go with what's the most profitable." Right now that's been shown that it's 80% men.

Michael Walker:
So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that specific point and would you recommend even just setting guidelines or standards based on organizations, like we want at least X percent of women, X percent of blank, or how could someone who's in that position be able to navigate in order to help be a part of the solution?"

Harriet JW:
I think having percentages and quotas are a good idea. The PRS here are running a campaign called 50:50. By, oh, I think it's 2025, they want lineups to be 50/50 split between genders. So I think that's really good just as almost a kind of buzzword, just to have this number that you're reaching for. Whether you reach it or not, you're going to get further than you are now.

Harriet JW:
Something I've been thinking about a lot recently and something ...Because I will often get put in conversations with people that are working for other minorities, so whether it's Black people's rights in music, disability in music, all the minorities coming together to have these conversations. I think one thing that often comes out of these conversations is that people just need to be having conversations.

Harriet JW:
I think something that's very hard, particularly with the internet, because of cancel culture and things like that, is that we become very scared to ask questions or to say that we don't know something or to say that, "Yeah, maybe we do have an inherent prejudice against something."

Harriet JW:
One thing that I learned through the BLM movement and something that I learned way too late and should have read up on much earlier was that, yes, we do all have these inherent racist tendencies growing up within White privilege. One of the main issues is that we don't admit that because we're so scared to be seen as racist or sexist or disablist when actually it's almost like we will need to admit that we are. We sit on histories of hundreds of years that how do we even start to unpick this stuff if we can't admit that it exists?

Harriet JW:
So I think in wondering about things like, "Well, we just put on what the people like," on the one hand that is because of the vicious cycle of they're being signed, they're being promoted, they're being seen, therefore they're being bought, but we also sit on this history of gender inequality that's thousands of years old, which we shouldn't have to ignore.

Harriet JW:
So, yeah, I think there's a big case for just having conversations. On a much more crude level, there's things like label sign less women because they're more expensive, because they have dancers and glam squads. Ed Sheeran can turn up in a scruffy ripped T-shirt and a pair of jeans and an old guitar and sell millions of records and women are more expensive.

Harriet JW:
So, yeah, I think there's a much bigger, much more political picture, but I also think there's a much more easy route of just labels needing to fill a quota that's a bit more fair.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think you're totally right that a big challenge with being a part of the solution or moving in the right direction is a lack of willingness to observe or acknowledge any hints of racism or sexism or labeling ourselves in that, because I think most people ...

Michael Walker:
Well, every single person is the hero of their own story. Even electively, there's been a lot of studies that show people ... The way that our memories work is that all of us remember things in different ways that position us in a favorable light. So no one wants to be labeled or positioned in a way that diminishes our sense of self. Being labeled as racist or sexist certainly isn't something that positions us in a great light.

Michael Walker:
Part of the issue might just be in terms of the definitions. What does racism mean? What does sexism mean? For a lot of people, I think that when they hear those words, they think that there's some very ... What's the right word? Malicious, malicious intent, or it's violent. In some cases, obviously, it can be very violent, very malicious. But I think in a lot of cases as well is there's just more of an undercurrent of bias. That's all it is. It's just psychological bias.

Michael Walker:
So it's sometimes a little bit emotionally tricky to use those words, like saying you're a racist or you're a sexist, because it creates this defensiveness. And so, I think that it is really important to have conversations like we're having now and to not necessarily demonize or attack people who are trying to do the best that they can, but also have some of these underlying beliefs that were passed down from generation to generation. But at the same time, having willingness to shine a light on those and actually have an honest discussion, like what's going on here?

Harriet JW:
Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I mean I felt exactly the same when ... So I think I read a book called How to Talk to White People About Race or something like that. I read a few of them and it was almost like there's a realization point, but there's almost a power and a relaxation in being able to say, "Shit. Yeah, I am. I am that. I am racist," and not having it seen as that malicious way.

Harriet JW:
But I completely understand that you don't want to go around and start telling people that everyone's racist. It's more about just acknowledging this bias and this history and the things that have been fed through the media and all the different industries that we might not realize are in the back of our heads sometimes, whether it's when we meet people in the street or when we buy music.

Harriet JW:
So, yeah, it's a massive, massive conversation. But I think from a music fan perspective, the best thing that you can do is be diverse within your music tastes and acknowledge, buy, go to shows, spend money with all different types of artists.

Harriet JW:
From an artist point of view, I think it's about having these conversations, mixing with people outside of the circles that you might normally not mix with, and trying to see other artists as other people trying to do the same thing as you, and that doesn't mean that their competition, and trying to have that abundant view of the world, that there is enough for everybody of whatever the resource might be that you're after, whether it's getting signed by a label or whether it's some money, like having this view that there is enough to go around and the best way that we can access it is to collaborate and help each other get access to these things.

Michael Walker:
Oh, what's up, guys? So quick intermission from the podcast so I can tell you about an awesome free gift that I have for you. I wanted to share something that's not normally available to the public. They're normally reserved for our $5,000 clients that we work with personally. This is a presentation called Six Steps to Explode Your Fanbase and Make a Profit with Your Music Online.

Michael Walker:
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Michael Walker:
The other thing I wanted to mention is if you want to do us a huge favor, one thing that really makes a big difference early on when you're creating a new podcast is if people click subscribe, then it basically lets the algorithm know that this is something that's new and noteworthy and that people actually want to hear. And so, that'll help us reach a lot more people.

Michael Walker:
So if you're getting value from this and you get value from the free trainings, then if you want to do us a favor, I'd really appreciate if you click on the subscribe button. All right, let's get back to the podcast.

Michael Walker:
That's really powerful. I think that's one thing that I see that separates a lot of the people, a lot of the artists that are the most successful are the ones who they learn how to view it, like you're saying, not necessarily as a competition but as a collaboration. Things like tour packages, going on tour with other artists, it's like bees cross-pollinating. It's great to have that diversity and to be able to collaborate. You're going to be a lot better off if you are actively seeking and building those relationships versus just trying to hold on to your fans and be competitive about it.

Michael Walker:
One thing that I know you have a lot of experience in is really zooming out a bit and talking more generally about artists. Like you mentioned, you don't necessarily need to have a record label sign you in order to be successful and have a full-time living as a musician nowadays. What are some of the biggest challenges that you see musicians struggling with when they're just getting started? Maybe they don't have their first thousand true fans yet and they're just trying to get things off the ground.

Harriet JW:
I think one of the biggest things from the outset is that we're so taught to go for these big numbers in the music industry, in the digital space generally, and people are thinking in hundreds of thousands and millions instead of, like you say, 1,000 true fans. People are trying to build followers over fans. I think it's a really important differentiation between building a community of people that really care what you do and building your numbers.

Harriet JW:
So I think there's two models that I see in the industry. There's the Spotify model where you're just trying to get lots and lots and lots and lots of people to stream your music and give you a fraction of a penny. In that model, you do need millions in order to make a sustainable income. Unfortunately, that's the way it is.

Harriet JW:
Those models tend to need the marketing machine of a label, unless you are very savvy with the online space, you have some luck on your side, you get a brilliant collaboration with Beyonce somehow. That's the model that artists tend to chase first because it's the model that they see. It's the model that they see successful artists get to at some point in their career.

Harriet JW:
But once you start to think a little bit more closely about the 1,000 fans model, and actually if you did have a thousand people that really loved you and they bought all your merch and went to all your shows and they spent a hundred pounds with you a year, you would have £100,000 salary. Trying to get that through the streaming model takes millions and millions and millions of hits.

Harriet JW:
So getting 1,000 people to love you is still very hard, but it's much more of an enjoyable and intimate experience of building a fanbase. So I think one of the first things that people need to do is stop thinking about the millions and thinking about the hundreds of thousands, and stop trying to build follow accounts and things like that and try to build like true engagement.

Harriet JW:
So whether that's doing more shows, doing more streams, and actually collecting these email addresses, instead of just saying, "Yeah, I've got a thousand fans. I've got a thousand followers," because that means absolutely nothing. It's nothing more than a vanity metric.

Harriet JW:
I think as soon as artists realize this and start building that fanbase one-by-one, it's that slight edge principle. So if you did something every day for a year, you're going to be exponentially better at it than if you didn't do that one thing every day for a year, even if you do it for just one minute.

Harriet JW:
So you ask artists if they've got a fanbase and they're like, "No, I have never gotten around to it," whereas if they'd gotten around to it a year ago and they'd put one person a day on it, that's 365 people. You're a third of the way to your 1,000 fans.

Harriet JW:
So that would be my, like, right at the start, try and shift your mindset into that way of thinking, because, yes, you might want to be a big streamed artist with millions of fans, but you're going to be so much more attractive to a record label if you turn up over a thousand true fans on their door.

Harriet JW:
So this is like a contributing factor to that model anyway, and it doesn't work so well the other way around. So get the 1,000 true fans model in your head and start building is my advice.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. Yeah, so it sounds like what you're saying is that one of the mistakes, one of the challenges is starting out, focusing on the numbers and focusing on getting vanity metrics, follower accounts up and not necessarily focusing on the engagements with those people, which in my mind what comes to mind is going horizontal versus going vertical. Horizontal, I mean you're trying to get as many people as possible, but it's very, very shallow. You're not going very deep with those people. Compared to going vertical, you have a smaller niche. You get really zoomed in.

Michael Walker:
I think you're right. I think that that's ... Especially with the tools that we have nowadays in terms of being able to identify a niche market and really use even like Facebook and Instagram advertising and go really deep with a smaller group of people, it's a really powerful way to build a core community, core tribe.

Michael Walker:
It also sounds like what you're saying is that that's the way you should do it anyway, because if you do want to go get signed to a record label, then it's going to be a lot more challenging if you don't already have a sustainable music career, if you don't already have something attractive to get signed to a record label.

Michael Walker:
Also, I love how that really brings things back down to earth too in terms of you don't need to get 10,000 new fans a day or hundreds of thousands or millions of fans. we're talking about getting 10 fans a day, multiplying that by a year, and you've already got your thousand true fans and then some.

Michael Walker:
So I guess the next question would be what are some of the best ways or the best strategies that you've seen for cultivating those one fan a day or three fans a day or even 10 fans a day? What are some of the best ways that you've seen to really build those relationships to find those people and then to actually build a deeper relationship with them?

Harriet JW:
Yeah. So I think, ultimately, it's all about belonging, isn't it? It's making people feel like they're part of something. If you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, belonging is up there below food and water, I think.

Harriet JW:
The internet in its current state, the way that we use social networks, doesn't really give that sense of belonging. I think it actually makes people feel further apart. You only have to look at the rise of things like Instagram Reels. People are like, "Use Instagram Reels. You'll get loads of views," but none of those people end up following you. It gives this illusion of having some success, but it just ends up, I think, making people feel worse at the end of the day when you look at things like that.

Harriet JW:
So I think actually knowing how to measure engagement, and there's loads of sums that you can do online. It's quite simple to find a baseline of where you're at. The way that you actually build that engagement is by doing the very traditional tactics.

Harriet JW:
So there is no better way in the music industry by doing this live, obviously, going out and actually recruiting these people one-by-one by playing to them on a stage and having that intimate experience. But the internet is the next best thing when we're in a pandemic, but also when you want to build a global fanbase.

Harriet JW:
So how can you cultivate that feeling in a digital space? It's mainly by giving people attention and whether that's ... I see artists do really nice things when you follow them, where they'll leave you a quick voice note. Just these things that you aren't expecting, like going onto a fan's Instagram page and writing a nice comment on one of their pictures.

Harriet JW:
I think artists often think that they're the stage, they put out information, and people take it, but actually it should be a two-way relationship. So your fans are going to feel amazing if you go and leave them a comment, or if you leave them a voice note, or if you send them an email that's a little bit more personal and start to bring them into this world a little bit more.

Harriet JW:
I think things like the Patreon model, I think, are brilliant because they allow you to give to fans in a way that you can't on other platforms. So giving them things like exclusive access to things.

Harriet JW:
So just really looking at what community you want to be the leader of, basically. What are those special things about you that is going to make you a good leader of this community? So some artists are super into wellness. So they'll create these Patreon communities around wellness, or it might just be as simple as your music really helps young people. So you go out and you recruit those young people, talk to them about your music. Why did they love it? How does it make them feel? I think it's just all about making people feel seen and making them feel part of something that's bigger than just them listening to your music.

Michael Walker:
I love that. I think that's so on point too, just in terms of when you think about the benefit of music and bands and the impact that it's made, the live shows and the community and the belonging and bringing people together is such a huge part of that. Going to a show and being surrounded by people who are a fan of the same music, like there's this connection that happens there.

Michael Walker:
So it sounds like what you're saying is that in lieu of live shows, you're actually doing them in person, you can also create those kinds of experiences online. You can do live streams on almost every social media platform that has these live streams where you can connect with people. It's really important to share appreciation, to share attention.

Michael Walker:
I think that that's certainly a super power in and of itself. As humans, all of us, a core need is to be appreciated, to be fully seen, be recognized. And so, if you can do that for your fans, if you can shine a light on them, if you can appreciate them, then that's something really powerful. It's a way that you can create that community.

Michael Walker:
In terms of different types of ... You mentioned the Patreon model. It's actually creating a brand, pairing it with something that you're passionate about, whether it's wellness or something else that aligns with your music.

Michael Walker:
What are some of the recommendations you'd have for someone in terms of ... Let's say that someone's listening to this or watching this right now and they have amassed a lot of time, a lot of energy into honing their music. They have at least five songs they feel really proud of. Mostly it's just their friends and their family who've been listening to the songs. Where do they even start with finding people who might appreciate their music and how do they start building this community so they can even start appreciating these people?

Harriet JW:
Yeah. I think that's a really good question. It is that tipping point, isn't it, where people start to realize that they've got talent, their friends and family enjoy it, but they can't get out of that rut of getting beyond the friends and family.

Harriet JW:
I think there's an initial point of acknowledging it to yourself and standing in the power of being an artist, because you'll often find that when you talk to artists at that level, they'll be like, "Oh, I'm trying to do this artist thing," or, "I'm kind of an artist."

Harriet JW:
I think the first thing from a mindset point of view is to acknowledge and own the fact that you are an artist. So if this is what you want to do, you're doing it, I'm an artist. You change your Instagram bio from that silly one that you had that was cool because you're embarrassed to write that you're a musician and really own it.

Harriet JW:
It's a little bit like when you start a business and you have to make that shift between putting up silly pictures of your holiday to putting up pictures of your services. That's really scary because you feel judged and you think that people are going to think, "Who does she think she is doing something like that?"

Harriet JW:
So I'd say that that was step one is to stand in your power of being an artist. I think step two is very much about what we just talked about. So manually going out and recruiting people into this club. So it might be some uncomfortable moments of like sending out DMs and things like that.

Harriet JW:
Thirdly, I would say that it's collaboration. So all of those massive YouTubers that are now making millions of pounds and living in mansions, they got to where they are through collaborating with other people slightly larger than them.

Harriet JW:
This is how touring works as a musician. So you go out there, you meet someone that's just slightly bigger than you, you collaborate, then you recruit their fans into your army. Then you are able to go out a little bit higher and collaborate with someone, recruit them into your ...

Harriet JW:
It's just a lot of manual work, and I think mostly there aren't really any big secrets of how to do this. I think what a lot of artists think is that there is a big secret of how to do this, but it is just this, a lot of hard work, a lot of dedication to your craft, continuously learning, continuously building, and just going out and getting these people.

Harriet JW:
I know that that's exactly what you did, building to millions and millions of streams of your band, and I'm really excited to have you on our podcast to talk about that. But I hope that you'd agree with me that there isn't this big secret sauce that you need to find in the algorithm somewhere.

Harriet JW:
It's a very old fashioned way of building community, that's about talking to people, that's about getting them to believe in your talent through your talent. But also that mindset shift of believing in yourself, I think, is really important from the beginning.

Michael Walker:
100%. Yeah, I think that starting out, the best way to do it really is, like you're talking about, from scratch, just reaching out to people and being a human and having conversations. I think that word conversation is really important.

Michael Walker:
One of the mistakes is almost like a megaphone, just shouting out, "Hey, come listen to me. Come check me out." But as humans, we have conversations. We go back and forth. We have discussions.

Michael Walker:
And so, for us ... Yeah, and we'll go into this when we talk tomorrow on your podcast. But we walked up to fans who were waiting in lines for shows. We just introduced ourselves and we shared some of our music. That was how we got started. That's how we sold our first 24,000 CDs was face-to-face, meeting people in lines for shows.

Michael Walker:
What you mentioned with maybe going and DM-ing people, even though it's a little uncomfortable at first ... Yeah, you want to be human when you do it, too. You don't want to just spam people or just copy and paste or whatever. But there's ways that you can build interaction in an authentic way. You can reach out, you can ... People, people are looking to connect.

Michael Walker:
I think you're also right on point when it comes to where it really begins is taking the spotlight and turning it inwards, looking at yourself and looking at how you identify yourself. I mean everything that we do is a result of how we identify ourselves. If you identify yourself as someone who is a struggling artist ...

Michael Walker:
I see this a lot, and I love to hear your take on this. But I think one of the challenges is identifying as a struggling artist or as a starving artist ... I've seen people literally introduce themselves, like, "Hi, I'm a struggling artist." It almost feels like a mechanism to try maybe to get some sympathy or to get ... I don't know what the right word for it is, but it certainly is not like being in your power. It's like, "I'm a struggling artist." You're literally creating this identity of someone who's struggling.

Michael Walker:
And so. I'd be curious in hearing your thoughts on that inward shift and creating that new identity to stand in your power. How does someone make that shift from someone who's a little bit maybe shy or embarrassed or feels a little bit ashamed, like, "Who am I to do this? Am I good enough?" How do they shift that identity from that to someone who actually is on the path to becoming a successful full-time artist?

Harriet JW:
Yeah. I mean with the artists that I work with, the starving artist mentality is one of the first things that we talk about and how to get rid of that. As somebody that's come through a career that started in the arts, I completely get it. It's fed into us, it's drummed into us that artists are starving because you don't make money out of these passion projects.

Harriet JW:
But I think the first thing to do is to think about value and think about how business is in exchange of value. Then you think about the value that music has in the world. So where would we be without gigs? Where would we be without music festivals? What would an advert be like if it didn't have a nice emotional piece of music on it?

Harriet JW:
If you can start to think of yourself as a business and think about that as an exchange of value and see the real value that music has in the world, I think that's a really good starting point. But then we have the problem of the music industry homogenizing and commoditizing music so that the value that we see is a fraction of a penny, because that's what Spotify and that's how music is charged for on the internet.

Harriet JW:
So I think it's shifting away from that model only. So not seeing that as the be-all and end-all model and thinking a bit more about the Patreon model, about the 1,000 fans model. Patreon's just been valued at $4 billion. That is showing you where the world is going in terms of creators and creating.

Harriet JW:
So Square, the mobile payment system, has just bought Tidal. What does that tell you about the direct-to-fan model? So I think having information like that in your back pocket as well. Yes, it might not be amazing for musicians right now in terms of the current music industry model, but it's changing very quickly.

Harriet JW:
So I think, yeah, owning the fact that you're a business, seeing the value in music, and also looking at these different models as an option for you as a business will hopefully help get you out of that starving artist mentality. I think, alongside that, there's a lot of work that people need to do around their money mindset as well.

Harriet JW:
Just quickly, a few tips that are really good, I think, for that is thinking very abundantly about money. When we think of money, we think of lack. So we think of spending it, therefore not having it anymore. But we don't often think of it as this cyclical nature.

Harriet JW:
So if you think of your bank balance in the cyclical way of things coming in and them going out and them going in and them going out and them going in, so you're not like, "Oh, I've spent it. It's gone." You're like, "Okay, that's gone, but more's coming," is another good practice.

Harriet JW:
And just really delving into what your relationship with money is is really important, because if you come from a space of lack and you always have, it might be that you didn't have a lot of money growing up, that will inform how you feel about yourself being an artist and making money. That might be something that's keeping you in that starving artist mentality.

Harriet JW:
When you do start to nail this stuff down, things start to change really quickly and opportunities come out of nowhere that you never thought would, because you become open to them and you're not this closed creative that just wants to be in their little dungeon creating work, promising the world they'll be happy as long as they can make their music. No, I think people need to own the fact that money is an exciting thing that allows opportunity and growth.

Harriet JW:
So, yeah, starving artist mentality, get out of it as soon as possible. If you can't find a way, drop me a message and I'll help you get out of it, because it's not helping anyone.

Michael Walker:
That's so powerful. Yeah, just the idea of value in general, how that applies to being a musician and a business owner. I mean that's essentially what businesses are is a way to provide value. I think probably one of the most powerful questions you can ask yourself, both as a business and just as a human being, is what you're saying, is how can I provide more value?

Michael Walker:
In terms of cultivating this new identity and really recognizing the value that they already offer ... I love conversations like this where we dive into the mindset and stuff, because I think that the money mindset, everything we're talking about really, is the roots. It's the roots of the tree. Everything else are just symptoms, they're just branches. But it starts with this inner work.

Michael Walker:
What are some of your recommended practices for someone who may be ... Generationally, they've grown up ... Their parents, their grandparents had the scarcity mindset around money. Are there things like, I don't know, visualization or affirmations or meditation? What are some practices that you would recommend for someone who might be listening or watching this right now? That's the one that feel ... Maybe they're in this state where they feel like there is a very limited amount of money, or they feel this weight on their shoulders. They feel like there's not enough. How can they start to really cultivate this new identity, this new mindset of abundance?

Harriet JW:
I think, from a holistic point view, things like gratitude and being thankful, I think, are very important. So even as simple as saying thank you when you receive money is a really powerful one. So whether it's getting money out of the cash machine, getting change from somewhere, just like looking at it and giving it a little nod and saying thank you, I think, is something that I've practiced and has been really helpful.

Harriet JW:
I think from a less holistic point of view and more practical sense point of view, it's very important to know where you're at and what you have. I think a lot of the time people will ignore ... I still sit down and do my personal finances on a monthly basis with a spreadsheet. That's something I used to see my dad do. But it's really important to know what the situation is in order to improve it, if that's what you need to do, so to know where you're at.

Harriet JW:
I think we're very taught 90% of people will be from the view that math's boring and we don't want to do our accounts because it's boring and you just avoid it. But actually it can be a very powerful practice just to have as simple as a line that's in and out and knowing what goes in every month and knowing what goes out every month, because you'll start to get that relationship with money where you really feel like you're using it as opposed to letting it use you. You own the situation. In doing things like this, you'll find out that you've got an old now TV subscription that you're spending £100 on a year and you don't realize and things like that.

Harriet JW:
So I think it's a real balance of the practical and the holistic. Again, I think going back to that abundant mindset, just knowing that it's out there. I think you can get into this too early for where you're at with your mindset and people will start talking to you about saying thank you to money and thinking abundantly, and it can be a little bit overwhelming when you're not there yet. You're like, "What? You think that I'm just going to suddenly materialize all the money in the world by thanking money?"

Harriet JW:
I'm not saying that is what will happen, but I think just being able to make your relationship with money a little better each day is really good, and not see it as the enemy and not see it as something dirty. Instead, see it as a tool.

Harriet JW:
I think one thing that someone said to me once was like, "What do you think of rich people?" I was like, "Oh, they're a bit gross, mostly." She was like, "Okay. What do you think of money?" and I was like, "Oh, it's kind of dirty maybe."

Harriet JW:
She was like, "What do you think of pizza?" I was like, "Pizza's nice." She was like, "They're exactly the same thing. They're just tools which you need at some point." I mean obviously you don't need pizza specifically, but food. You shouldn't be labeling these things as bad or good. They're just tools in which we need in our lives.

Harriet JW:
So I think really unpicking your money mindset is important. I think that probably goes back to childhood. What were you taught about money? How do you feel about money? Did you have it? Did you not have it? You'll start to find some patterns.

Harriet JW:
So, for example, with me, when I did this exercise, I was taught ... So my dad would do his finances and things and I remember being quite interested in money. I don't know if this was like an early entrepreneur interest, but I remember always asking him how much he earned. He worked for the government. We were very comfortable. Not super rich, not poor. I had what I needed. But he'd be like, "That's not for you to worry about. Don't worry." Or I'd be like, "What are you doing?" when he was doing the finances. He'd be like, "Don't worry. You go and play."

Harriet JW:
And so, for me, that really carried through my life, that money wasn't for me to worry about. I always managed to make enough that I needed, but I never had this real hunger for money. I think that probably actually stifled me a little bit in business at the beginning because I was much more focused on the creative. I didn't care if Secret Sessions was ever going to make money. I just wanted to make this beautiful YouTube channel full of wonderful videos, where actually now, looking back on it, I wish that I'd got more comfortable with money a lot earlier on, because I think I would have been more successful in my 20s in business.

Harriet JW:
Now I've done a lot of work with it and I'm building up a new business. It's just a completely different game now now that I've got that relationship with money down a lot more than I used to.

Michael Walker:
There's so much goodness in there. It sounds like what you're saying is that a lot of this comes down to your relationship with money and how you feel about it, and sometimes that's something that comes from the generational things that have been passed down.

Michael Walker:
But even just if you're listening or watching this right now and you ask yourself the question, "What do I think about people who have a lot of money?" if what comes up is, "Oh, they're greedy," or, "They're evil," or, "They're corrupt," or, "It's dirty. There's something wrong with it," then how likely is it that you're going to do the things that lead to you being wealthy or acquiring money?

Michael Walker:
Probably not because there's a part of you that thinks, well, people who have money are scummy or evil or they're corrupt or they're greedy. It sounds like what you're saying is that money by itself is absolutely not crummy or evil or corrupt. It's just a tool.

Michael Walker:
There's a lot of people using money for really positive ways that create an impact. Money is just a tool that allows you to accomplish things. I mean, in my experience, everyone that I've met personally, obviously there are cases of people ... There are some that come to mind of people who have a lot of money, who also are people that I don't necessarily resonate with, or I don't think they're using it in a great way. Those tend to be people who are very ego-driven and winners, losers are separate.

Michael Walker:
But that's not the majority of them. In my opinion, the people who acquire money are the people who figure out how to provide a massive value to people, and that's how they build wealth. It sounds like a lot of it comes down to just being honest with yourself and looking at how do I feel about money? Is it something that I think makes someone greedy or corrupt, or is it something that you can truly appreciate and wish someone else the best and actually are excited for someone else if they found money to be able to encourage that? Because if so, that's probably going to be a lot more powerful for yourself as you're trying to grow and to create a bigger impact.

Michael Walker:
Another one of the points that you brought up was around just keeping track, keeping track of what's your starting point, where are you at? What comes to mind when you talk about that is this analogy of if you set goals, it's like having a map and having a destination to get to on the map. It's a lot harder to get to the destination if you don't know what's your starting point, where are you at on the map?

Michael Walker:
And so, it sounds like what you're saying is that a really important point to not overlook is ... Even though it can be uncomfortable, especially if you're someone like me a few years ago, I had about $36,000 in debt, and it felt like a weight. It felt like something I didn't really want to look at. It was something scary. It was something that made me feel ashamed.

Michael Walker:
And so, a lot of times that's a scary thing to really face head on and look at, but that's the only starting point is like you have to come to terms and to face things the way that they are. Then from there, you'll have better footing, better grounding to be able to take the steps that you need to in order to get to your goal.

Harriet JW:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's that how do you ... You've got to get to base camp in order to climb. I think there is a real power in knowing the situation and making a plan. I think that can be simply done with a little bit of a pen and a paper and work out how you're going to do something. I think often it can feel overwhelming when things have mounted up, like you said. £36,000 of debt is not a small amount.

Harriet JW:
Again, it's going back to that slight edge principle of attacking things on a small basis once every single day. Like I said, if you were to look at your finances and take ownership of them and realize how much money you might be spending on a subscription that you don't need, you can start to counterbalance things and find little pockets of money.

Harriet JW:
I think one thing that we're conditioned to do somehow is live far beyond our means, and that's how a lot of people will build up this debt in their 20s or when they're at university, is because it was just flying at them from all angles these offers of getting yourself into debt, where they'll use different banks.

Harriet JW:
I think if you do come to a point where that has happened, I think it's exactly as we're talking about, just knowing what the situation is, letting it stare you right in the face, and then growing from there and improving from there.

Harriet JW:
Everything that we've talked about, I think, comes back to having to get uncomfortable and having to get comfortable with getting uncomfortable. So whether that's staring your debt in the face and knowing exactly where you're at or doing an Instagram Live, growth doesn't come from sitting in a comfy bed in a nice hotel. It comes from getting really uncomfortable.

Harriet JW:
If you think back to when you had to walk up to people and sell them CDs in the queue, it probably wasn't something you wanted to do, but the growth and the reward that you got from that was really significant. I think, across everything that we've talked about, if people can get comfortable with those uncomfortable moments and know that what that uncomfort is is you growing, I think that's when things start to become exciting and when things start to change in all areas of your life.

Michael Walker:
That's definitely like a mic drop moment there, getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. It reminds me of the quote ... I forget who quoted this. I'd probably Google it and find it out. But life is hard if you live it the easy way and life is easy if you live it the hard way.

Michael Walker:
The point that they were making is sort of, like you're describing with the comfort zone, it's uncomfortable at first to get out of your comfort zone, but that's really what leads to this growth and, at least in the long term, this fulfillment and life becoming a lot easier in the long term. Counterintuitively, the things that are really easy in the short term, things like just sleeping in bed all day or just not facing whatever it is, is easy in the short term, but it's harder in the long term.

Harriet JW:
One thing that I just thought of there is that or pretending that you don't want something. That's what I see a lot of artists do as well, pretending that they don't actually want the success that they do want because they're scared of not getting it. So being afraid of failure means that they're afraid to actually identify what they want. Actually, if we're going to use quotes, I think that sort of ... What is it? If you shoot for the moon and miss, you'll land amongst the stars.

Harriet JW:
I think that's something that, again, we need to get comfortable with, is setting these big goals for ourselves. I'll often hear artists be like, "You know what? I'll be fine as long as I can just cover my rent." It's like, "No. Come on, we can do more than this."

Michael Walker:
I love that. That quote is actually ... When we were touring full time, we've signed a lot of notebooks and CDs and different things. A lot of times when people would ask us to write quotes, that was my go-to quote. I probably wrote that in probably over 200 different notebooks, that exact quote. So that's definitely a full circle moment.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Well, hey, Harriet, it's been great talking with you. I always appreciate being able to geek out and go into some of the inner game things that I think, again, are really, really important and create the roots for the success that comes from it. So I really appreciate you being here and creating a platform to be able to shine a light on some of these things that are a little bit trickier to talk about.

Michael Walker:
So for everyone that's listening and watching this right now, who would like to get into contact with you or connect more, what would be the best place for them to go to learn more?

Harriet JW:
So the best place to find me is at Harriet JW. So Harriet is R-R-I-E-T J-W on Instagram. Then from there, you can go and find out Secret Sessions, Girls to the Front, and things like that.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Yeah, so we'll make sure to put it in the show notes so you can click on the link and go straight there. Harriet, you're awesome. Thanks again. It's been a lot of fun talking.

Harriet JW:
Amazing. Thank you. I can't wait to catch up with you on our podcast.

Michael Walker:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, speaking of that, maybe we could do a quick plug for your podcast as well, because if someone's listening to the podcast right now, I'm sure that it would be a great step for them to go follow you as well.

Harriet JW:
Yeah, definitely. So our podcast is called Girls to the Front. So just search for Girls to the Front on any podcast platform and you'll see a picture of me sitting against the wall. That's where you can find all our latest episodes.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Cool. All right. Thanks, Harriet.

Harriet JW:
Thank you. I'll chat to you tomorrow in that case.

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today. If you want to support the podcast, then there's few ways to help us grow.

Michael Walker:
First, if you hit subscribe, then I'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends or on your social media, tag us. That really helps us out. Third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take their music careers to the next level. The time to be a modern musician is now, and I look forward to seeing you on the next episode.