Daniel Grimmett:
A song is an asset. Yes, you're going to put a little bit of money into it upfront, but that song, even if it doesn't break immediately, it may break in a couple of years. That is an asset.

Michael Walker:
It's easy to get lost in today's music industry, with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician and it's only getting better. If you have high quality music but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month, without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution on today's music industry, and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

Michael Walker:
All right. I'm super excited to be here today with my buddy, Daniel Grimmett. He launched his career with a production company called The Song Writing Team that worked on over 800 projects in 25 countries around the world, produced a billboard charting record, got songs placed on TV, and works with everyone from YouTubers to Fortune 500 brands. And now he runs a business consultancy called Dark Label that serves both indie and major record label producers. And today, we've had a couple of really good conversations around production and mindset. And as an indie musician, there's a lot of amazing tools that are at our disposal like home studios and whatnot, but those are also sometimes a challenge in terms of time and knowing like how much should we be doing ourselves or just building a team.

Michael Walker:
So I think that today we're really going to focus on that conversation and figuring out, as an indie musician, how do you record the highest quality music and what are the best things for you to focus on? So Daniel, thanks so much for taking the time to talk today.

Daniel Grimmett:
Thanks man. Appreciate you having me. I'm looking forward to it.

Michael Walker:
Heck yeah. I'd love to start off by just hearing a little bit about your backstory. We've already connected, but for anyone listening to this right now, could you just introduce yourself and share a little bit about how you got started with Dark Label?

Daniel Grimmett:
Yeah. I started playing music when I was a kid. My parents always had instruments around the house and they played a little bit. My dad was a band instructor when I was a little kid, and yeah, I started playing instruments, playing in bands and got into the recording side of things ultimately. When I was 24, moved to Los Angeles to start a production company. That was about a decade ago. And we were one of the first fully remote production agencies. It's very popular now obviously with the pandemic, which I think is awesome because it's something we've been doing for a long time and I'm a big believer in the model and being able to connect with artists all over the world just like you mentioned.

Daniel Grimmett:
I got to work on a ton of cool projects. My primary role was hiring the talent, the producers, the writers, the mixers, as well as getting the work, whether that be artists, companies, brands, things like that. We did all sorts of stuff. We relocated the company to Nashville in 2014, stayed there for the bulk of the time that we were a business. And what I realized was that, hey, all the people that worked for us ended up going on to do big things and cool things. That inspired me to get into the consulting side and help producers grow their business.

Daniel Grimmett:
I also have a partner, Mike Mani, who's an industry vet that helps me out. And he does a lot of different stuff, but I guess his biggest claim to fame is discovering and developing pop acts, Tori Kelly, Becky G, people like that. So I have an interesting perspective on both sides. Even though I work directly with producers, those are my clientele, at the end of the day, I'm in this so that the artists, their clients, have a great experience and get something out of it because if the artist isn't getting anything from the producer, what's the point of the producer?

Daniel Grimmett:
So focusing on a great experience for what I call the end-user, which is the artist. I help artists in a weird way, through producers, basically, making sure producers are showing up and doing their job and providing value to the artists. So I've this weird middle ground, I guess, where I understand both sides. And hopefully, we can talk a bit about that today.

Michael Walker:
That's awesome, man. It's super interesting too how... I love the way that you put it in terms of like you're serving artists through the producers. What it reminds me of is, it reminds me of my mentor and a few of my business mentors and some of the impact that they've made on me and with modern musician and how ultimately, they made a huge ripple effect on all the artists that we're working with as well. And a lot of what I'm sharing and the lessons that I've learned, a lot of the insights has come from my mentorship. And so I think that, yeah, you can make a huge impact, even if you're focusing on producers, that does really ripple out and helps artists.

Michael Walker:
From your perspective, what do you say in terms of zooming out and looking at the landscape, the music industry right now, what do you think are some of the biggest challenges that music artists are struggling with right now?

Daniel Grimmett:
Yeah. Well, listen, obviously, the thing that comes to mind, I look at the objections that my producers get. That's how I get the idea of what's going on out there from the artist's perspective. The tough thing I, how do I come up with the money to invest in a good product when it's difficult to make money back on and make a return on investment? And the truth is, that has always been that way. Sure, there was people that made a lot of money off records before streaming, but that was a select few, that was the ones that got through the gatekeepers, and even most of them didn't get the best deals in the world. But that has not changed.

Daniel Grimmett:
So yeah, the biggest issue is, okay, the music is now the marketing for the artists, which is the product, and it has to be good. I still think the music's first, so how do we create great music when we have a budget and may not be able to afford producers? I'll just throw this out there first, the music is just not where I'd be skimping. If you want to develop skills to try to do as much as you can, do it on the content side, do it on the stuff that I think you have a better chance of really getting good at. But the music side, and I just want to preface this, I don't I don't want to de-motivate people or anything, but maybe it's just a different perspective.

Daniel Grimmett:
The real artists have put in thousands and thousands of hours to become great artists, and producers have done the same thing, and there's just so much time. So the chances that an artist is going to be a really incredible artist and a really incredible producer, honestly, you probably already know by now if that were... You know what I mean? And there are a couple examples of that, of course. I think Kanye is a great producer and a great artist, like Pharrell, like J Cole, there's a ton of examples, but it still is a small subset compared to artists in general.

Daniel Grimmett:
And it gets really dangerous when people try to model themselves after the anomalies. To put in the business world, I think Alex Becker, one of the business guys said this, "People will come and say, 'Oh, I want to run a bunch of different businesses because Elon Musk does it.'"And it's like, well, you're picking the one guy who's an anomaly to try to model yourself after where 99% of the business people that are successful really focused on one thing and made it great. So I get why we want to do that and produce your own stuff, but listen, don't let that get in the way of you actually having a shot as an artist.

Daniel Grimmett:
You can get with the producer that can maybe do some fun on spec in the beginning or figure out a way to pay them or do what you have to do to make sure the music's good. And then if you want to put in some time to build up some other skills, I would do it on content side and other things like that. We can break that down, but that's just what I'll throw out.

Michael Walker:
No, that's a really good insight because it's no secret that we all have an amazing opportunity in terms of the tools that used to cost tens of thousands of dollars, we can have similar tools now in a home studio. And so those tools are really incredible, but the time investment, the time is the biggest thing I think that still requires a lot of time investment in order to really figure out how to use those tools. And if you're just trying to figure them out on your own too, you're probably going to be spending a ton of extra time as opposed to finding a mentor who you can literally work with day and night to see how, with their tens of thousands of hours of work, how they operate.

Michael Walker:
If you can actually be in a studio where you're interning with a producer, that's one thing, that's a great way to learn how to become good yourself. But a lot of times, it seems like people are trying to do this themselves and sending a ton of time and energy. And time is super valuable, it's way more valuable than money in the term. And I really like the point that you made in terms of the things that you can invest in in your music career. The music, it's called your music career. So the music is one of those things where it's got to be, it's got to be really good. It's be something competitive and something that the quality is really good along with just the songs themselves need to be really good.

Michael Walker:
And it's not everything, there's plenty of super talented songwriters and super talented producers that have a great product, but if they don't know how to promote themselves or market it, then it's having a shiny car that has no engine, you can't go anywhere. But also, if you try to just polish a turd, it's still going to be a turd, and it's the same if you're trying to gain traction with a subpar product, then you're going to be able to go on an uphill battle. So I agree 100%. I think the product, honing in the product, and then honing in the marketing are probably the two best investments that you can make.

Daniel Grimmett:
And I also want to just add that just because I said that doesn't mean that I don't think artists should learn production. I absolutely think they should. It's part of the writing process nowadays on a lot of things. But unless you're a producer and really good, where it's getting muddy is that artists are thinking because they can produce a demo that now it's a co-production. It's like, well, no, you're just producing your demos. That's how it used to work. You would go with a smaller producer or a studio in town and you would cut your demos. They used to do it in Nashville, they'd have the demo factories, you'd go in, they'd crank it out in an hour, various genres, I'm not talking just country, but that's how it works.

Daniel Grimmett:
You made a demo and then you would take it to the main producer, they would do the master. They would do the master production, the master recording. And basically, where we're at now is just that artists are doing their own demos, but in most cases, that's what it is. You've made a demo, which is great, that helps the producer. That's a starting point for the producer, but it's not a co-production in most cases, unless you're a good producer. So that's where it gets a little blurry. But I do think learning basic production and being able to lay something out for yourself, program some drums and make an arrangement is important, but you just don't want to trick yourself into like, I don't know.

Daniel Grimmett:
It's just one of those things where it's got to be 100 % or more. And it's like, "Sure, I'll save 500 bucks not hiring that guy to make a track or 1,000 bucks, But then all my music's 80%," and it's like, "Well, then what's the point?" I guess if you're doing it for fun, fine. But I'm not talking about people just doing it for fun here, I'm talking about people that are trying to make this a career, which I assume this is what this podcast is for. 80% is just not going to cut it, 99% Is not going to cut it. 100% is what's necessary. So you have to figure out, "Where do I have the high... "

Daniel Grimmett:
Maybe you have a higher chance of getting really good at the content side, and say, "Okay, we'll save money on the content side. I don't need to hire a video guy outside of maybe music videos or something. But all the other stuff, maybe I can do on my own," or whatever. Maybe that's where you say it, but yeah, you're just not even going to have the opportunity to get in the rooms with people if the music, if they're just like, "Yeah, it's all right." You've got to bring it on that front. That's still a thing. And you can argue and say, "Oh, there's a bunch of music that isn't that great or whatever and it's famous."

Daniel Grimmett:
Well, it's still a thing, I promise you. Again, we're looking at anomalies here. Yeah, that rapper happened to be really good at marketing. So maybe his music isn't the best thing in the world, but he's really good at marketing and it's at least working in the short term. We know now that most of the time it's not working in the longterm, but regardless, you've got to bring it with that stuff, man, or people, just they're not even going to give you a chance.

Michael Walker:
One analogy I use all the time is that building a successful music career is starting a fire and the logs for the fire are the songs. If you just have a bunch of wet grass, you're going to have a really difficult time starting the fire. But if you have some really nice logs, big thick logs, you have lighter fluid to douse off, it's going to light a lot easier. But also if all you have is those logs, and you're just throw them in a fire pit, then nothing's going to happen and it's just going to be your logs sitting in a fire pit. So you have to know how to generate flames, how to generate traffic, how to promote yourself, to be able to start the fire.

Michael Walker:
And yeah if you are really good at starting fires and you have a lot of good marketing around it, then sometimes you can light a thin twig or something and it might start a bit of a fire and you might be able to have a bunch of stuff that you throw in and a fire can get going, but it's heck a lot easier if you have lighter fluid doused in these logs, and it's one touch of the flame and it goes viral, right?

Daniel Grimmett:
Yeah. And if you're going the major route, you're probably not going to make much money off of that first thing anyway. So you need longevity, you need multiple projects to do well. You need long-term fans, you need all that stuff. I don't know. It's just every musician, I like it because it's good music," obviously. And it sounds good. There's no musician I listen to where it's like, "Oh cool. Yeah, they have 80% recordings." Not one. There's not one artist I listen to. Everything I listened to, I don't know, maybe you have some examples, but I can't think of an artist I listen to where it's not awesome.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, that's a really good point. Let's say that someone is listening to this right now and they want to take their music to the next level and they want to record higher quality songs and they're like, "Okay, how do I find the right producer? Who do I look for? Who would be a good fit for me?" Do you have any recommendations for how they can discover and find the person who is the right fit?

Daniel Grimmett:
Yeah, a couple of ways. So the good thing is, obviously with the internet, we can connect with anyone. So I can just reverse engineer it and say where my producers meet artists and then you can use that. Obviously a big one is referral. Do you have a friend that has a really great sounding record that you're like, "Dang, my stuff doesn't sound hers or his yet." Well, go ask who they worked with. So referral, that's a big way producers get work and that's a way you could find producers. The next is going to be Instagram. I'm sure you follow some producers on Instagram. Are there ones that have a style, have a call with four or five of them to see which one you connect with it.

Daniel Grimmett:
Listen, there's a lot of producers that aren't professional at all, even though they sound good, they don't handle their business well, and I apologize on behalf of them and hopefully I can get through to helping all those people. But yes, you're right, if you've had a bad experience, there are a lot that aren't professionals. So you may have to go through three or four, but it's worth doing. It's like when people say, "Hey, get a therapist or whatever." Therapy is great and it can be life changing, but you may have to put in the work to go through three or four to find one that you really connect with.

Daniel Grimmett:
And that's okay, that's just the tuition. That's just the tuition of this business. It's the tuition in your career for this business. Facebook groups, another to meet great producers. If you do pop stuff, go on to Make Pop Music, there's hundreds of killer producers in that group. YouTube. You may have come across some producer already if you're searching for stuff on how to produce. Well, the ones you've learned from, do they take clients? Are they good? Is the source material that they're teaching on, if they're pulling up a song they worked on to teach you something, does it sound good? Does it sound like something you want to do?

Daniel Grimmett:
And most producers now can handle remote sessions, so if you don't live near a bunch of producers or good producers that's not an excuse. You could do it online. Now, that you know how to produce demos, you send your demo to them, they put the track down. They can literally fly into your session online, produce your vocals. Or you can go to a local studio to cut the vocals, and then send it back to them. They loop in their mixing and mastering engineer, and you can have incredible... A ton of music being made that way. We've been doing it for a decade. But now, especially, there's so many of those producers out there that can do that.

Daniel Grimmett:
And if you're struggling on finding someone, send me an email. I guess you put it in the show notes, I'll link you with someone. I have a roster of incredible producers of all different styles. So yeah, you ask people man, you ask people that know what they're doing and have a network.

Michael Walker:
Oh, what's up, guys? Quick intermission from the podcast, so I can tell you about an awesome free gift that I have for you. I wanted to share something that's not normally available to the public, they're normally reserved for our $5,000 clients that we work personally. This is a presentation called 6 Steps to Explode Your Fanbase & Make a Profit With Your Music Online. Specifically, we're going to walk through how to build a paid traffic, an automated funnel that's going to allow you to grow your fan base online and the system's designed to get you to your first $5,000 a month with your music. We've invested over $130,000 in the past year to test out different traffic sources and different offers and really see what's working best right now for musicians, and so I think it's going to be hugely valuable for you. If that's something you're interested in, in the description, there should be a little link that you can click on to go get that.

Michael Walker:
The other thing I wanted to mention is, if you do us a huge favor, one thing that really makes a big difference early on when you're creating a new podcast is, if people click Subscribe, then it basically lets the algorithm know that this is something that's new and noteworthy and that people actually want to hear. And so that will help us reach a lot more people. So if you're getting value from this and you get value from the free trainings, then if you want to do us a favor, I'd really appreciate you clicking the Subscribe button. All right, let's get back to the podcast.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. I think all those ideas are super smart. And one thing I would just add to it is that, do some research and listening to the music and see, is that what you're going for? You have to identify, what sound do I want to emulate? What are some of my favorite artists? I'm sure that there's a lot of times with people, let's say that you make a list of your favorite artists and then you Google, who are their producers, who they produce with, then a lot of time you're going to probably see producers and you're going to see big names producers who are working with a lot of the most popular artists.

Michael Walker:
I would be curious to hear your thoughts around that idea, because I'm sure that's one mistake that sometimes people might run into, is paying for a name versus paying for a product. But also, if you have the resources and you're willing to invest in you want to work with them, would that ever make sense to find someone based on that?

Daniel Grimmett:
It could. In a lot of cases, probably not. If you're just super rich and want to, but that doesn't mean that producer is going to take the project. Get good and then let the labels pay for that. As an indie producer, I would find a producer, and this is what we try to train our guys on, this is where Mike comes in to play because he's got an extensive background developing artists. To me, there's good independent producers that they don't have a huge name yet, so they really have to double down and put in the value for you as an artist. And you want one that has some experience. We have a lot that have experienced as an artist themselves, they've been in the game for a while, they may even have a little bit of a network, and they can provide more than just producing a song for you.

Daniel Grimmett:
They can really act as a guide to help you get stuff done, or maybe it's making introductions, or maybe there's some artists development services that they wrap it into the deal. We're training producers, and I try to put this message out there that producers have to understand the business of artists better than the artists do or they're not worth hiring. So if you're talking to a producer and you're like, "Cool, how do I run Facebook ads to promote this? Or how do I get this meeting with an indie label?" If they don't know more about your business than you do, then maybe you don't hire them.

Daniel Grimmett:
You want to hire someone that's like, they're not a huge name, but they're maybe a couple of steps ahead of you, you like their sounds, they're a good hang, you like their personality, you like them as a person. And they're really going to go to bat for you. And you may be able to connect with people and collaborate and do it for free, it's just that when you pay for it, they have to do it. They're on the hook to do it. It's the reason why I don't ever do interns I don't really ever do people that work for me for free. I want them to have something on the line to lose if they don't do a good job.

Daniel Grimmett:
So I would rather just pay them so that I know if they don't do it well, then they have something to lose because then they have a higher chance of doing it well. So you can maybe find someone to link up with for sure. And obviously, there's been a ton of incredible projects that just came from, "Oh, my buddy was a producer. We linked up, made this project." All of my producers take on projects that are pro bono that they just really believe in the artist and want to get behind them, they want to try to develop them. But the good producers are only going to have time for maybe a couple of artists at any given time, and then they also have to pay their bills.

Daniel Grimmett:
And just because they're the projects that pay their bills doesn't mean they don't care about the artists or don't want to get behind the artists, it just means that they're already capped out for what they can handle on the pro bono work. Same as a lawyer, you pay a lawyer, it doesn't mean that he doesn't care about you because he didn't do it pro bono. It's just he's not doing it pro bono because perhaps he already has his caseload with pro bono work is maxed already. Maybe that's a weird example. That's the same kind of thing. Find a producer who can develop you and help you get to the...

Daniel Grimmett:
You're not going to find one that can take you from zero to 1,000, you're just looking for one that can get you from... Instead of trying to get you from A to Z, there's not going to be one person that could do that. You're going to find a producer that gets you from A to D, and then you're going to maybe upgrade and find the next producer who's a bit more established that gets you from D to M, and then you're going to have a producer that's even more established that gets you from M to Z. You may go through three or four producers as you grow, but you've got to bring it and you have good shit and you got to build that up, or the bigger producers, they're not even going to be interested in working with you, even if you paid them, they're not going to be interested because they're just like, "Eh."

Daniel Grimmett:
They don't see it. They don't see the vision. So it's a mirror effect, man, you put in and I get it, it's tough to put it all together and pay for things. It's tough for the producers too. It ain't any easier for them. They have all their own issues as well. People like you and I, we have businesses, we had to start from zero and that just is what it is. But it's a mirror effect, the ones that go out and figure out how to make it happen, you attract other people that do that. That's why we know each other, man. You know what I mean?

Michael Walker:
Sure. There's so much good stuff out of what you just shared there. One of the things that you mentioned about, not necessarily feeling you have to jump from just starting out, you've never recorded a song in your life, to working with the best producers of all time. There's a gap there and it just doesn't make sense on either side. And it sounds like what you're saying is that, really, it's like a domino effect. If you have a little tiny domino, eventually, you're trying to knock over a huge domino. And you're starting out, you have this little tiny domino, if you push the little tiny domino, it's not going to knock over the big giant one, but if you have a domino that's just slightly bigger than the initial one, and then you push it over, then that smaller one can knock over the one that's slightly bigger.

Michael Walker:
But then if you keep stacking, so there's slightly bigger domino every step, then eventually with that one little domino, if you push it over, it knocks over all the slightly bigger domino and it can eventually knock over the huge domino There's really some really interesting YouTube videos that demonstrate that too. But I'd love that idea, especially in regards to reproducing your music, and it definitely rings true with Paradise Fears, our first album. I remember recording ourselves on GarageBand. That was embarrassing. Now it just makes us laugh listening to it. And then working with a local producer that lived 20 minutes away from us.

Michael Walker:
And that's another one that eventually we took offline because it was just a huge difference from once we found the right producers to work with. But also at the time too, we weren't ready to work with those bigger producers. We needed it to work our way up there. I love that piece of advice. And also I really like how you described the producer's role and the value, how a lot of times it's more than just a song. It's more than just having the final product, but a lot of times, the producer's role is almost like a guiding figure, a mentor, a leader who can connect you with other people in the industry, other artists and other people that you should meet, is someone who can help with business advice for your music career.

Michael Walker:
I know for us, one of the biggest things that impacted the trajectory of our career was when we first connected with a producer named Jordan Schmidt, was exactly what you're describing. He was an up and coming producers just starting out. He didn't really have a big name yet. Now, he's recorded several multi-platinum songs and he lives in Nashville, and he's working with a bunch of super well-known, the top of the top, country artists right now. I feel like if you Google Jordan Schmidt, I'm sure you'll see his credentials. But he for us was a huge guiding light early on.

Michael Walker:
He was the person who, when we told him that we were planning on going to college and doing the band on the side and that we were still going to pursue the band, he was basically like, "Look, that's fine if you want to do that, but if you're serious, if this is something you really want to turn into a career, it's the bands that go all in that are ones that are successful." That one statement for us coming from Jordan changed all of our lives. And there's no way that we would have accomplished that we did without that mentorship. So I think that, yeah, exactly what you're saying, for more than just the songs, finding a good producer and working with producers is usually valuable for your music career.

Daniel Grimmett:
Yeah, man. And another thing too I don't think artists, especially newer ones don't realize yet. And I get it, especially if you're coming into the game in the past five years or something. And unfortunately, it doesn't seem like music is a valuable anymore. I think a lot of artists feel that way. It's like, "I'm not making any money immediately, there's so many artists." That is not the way to think. A song is an asset, go look at how much people just in the past year have been selling their publishing for, hundreds of millions of dollars.

Daniel Grimmett:
Every song you put out is an asset that can continue to make money for you. It's not going to make money up front, but that's like saying, "Well, I'm not going to get into real estate because I'm not going to make all my money back in a month." It's "Well, come on. That's just immature." So if you have the idea of "Well, I'm not going to invest in production unless I immediately make my money back," it's just an immature way to look at it. It's just not a thing. And I think that, unfortunately, there's a lot of, not you because you have a totally different thing, but I think there's a lot of messaging out there for music marketers that everything's about you have to immediately make a return on your song profits.

Daniel Grimmett:
If you need that to do music, you don't love this shit. You don't love this shit. That was never a thing until the past... I've been hearing one of the objections my producers have brought up in the past, maybe two, three years, like, "Oh, they said, no, because they're not going to make their money back immediately." And I'm like, "Where's this coming from? That's never been a thing." When I ran a production company, I don't ever remember an artist saying that. So I think there's just a lot of whack information setting these unrealistic expectations.

Daniel Grimmett:
And it's unfortunate it's going to knock a lot of people out of the game, because they're not going to make moves at all based on that, and then they're just never going to do anything. So a song is an asset. Yes, you're going to put a little bit of money into it upfront, but that song, even if it doesn't break immediately, it may break in a couple of years. That is an asset. If you look at Lizzo who put out her, of course, I'm blanking on the name now that I need to know the name off the top of my head, whatever her first big hit single was, that was a couple of years before it blew up.

Daniel Grimmett:
If she was just half-ass that song, then probably wouldn't be Lizzo now. Every song is an asset, and never forget that. Never forget that. So if you don't have a ton of money, well, put as much time as you can, and hopping on Instagram and show what you can do, show your talents. Make content like that. That's really one you could argue, one of the most important things anyway is just being present and connecting with people, and then drop some songs. Maybe you do some little work tapes, or covers, or whatever, or features, things that to have some content to release, but don't skimp on the songs.

Daniel Grimmett:
Make sure even if you're going to release less of them, make them good, because you could do plenty of other kinds of content. And if you happen to be an anomaly, I know what people are going to say, "Well, Russ releases a song." Russ is in anomaly. Russ is a great producer and a great artist, and he's been in the game for a long time, he's fast. So he could do a song a week. If you could do that, cool. But I'd rather if you want to put out a ton of content, don't just half-ass your songs because those are your assets. Put out a bunch of content to build a fan base and connect with people and have fun, and then when you have the money, really make the song great.

Michael Walker:
100%. And I think an important thing that you brought up too is that, you don't necessarily need to have multiple albums right off the bat of highly produced songs. If you save up and you invest in a single, or an EP, or an album, you can record 20 demos yourself and then just choose the top one to five to get recorded professionally. And if you know how to promote yourself correctly, then all you need is one to five songs really. And so that's a 100% a really worthwhile investment, at least getting something. I call it the tip of the iceberg content. There's so much saturation now with so much music and content, just information online that most of it just goes underneath the surface.

Michael Walker:
It goes underneath our radar, we don't even notice most of the information online because we only see the tip of the iceberg, the most relevant, the things that stand out, that stick out. And so there's not a whole lot of stuff that does that. But if you can create a little bit, your tip of iceberg content, the one to three songs that can make the best possible first impression, you can do a lot with those. And then once you have the fire started, then you can keep adding one log to the fire over time.

Daniel Grimmett:
You're really good at helping artists use some modern strategies that make money, which is cool. Last time we were on Zoom, I got a little peek at the steps that you showed me. And that's awesome, but they have to qualify. I think I've even seen in your ad, but to even get to the point where you'll even help them do that, they have to have good music. So it's like maybe you save on not having the best, you save on production, but then you don't even have the quality of music to get to work with someone like you to help them actually go make money and set up these product funnels and things that generate all this monthly income.

Daniel Grimmett:
Olympic athletes are Olympic athletes before they even get a chance to step on the field. They're already Olympic level athletes before they even get to get on the field and play the game. I feel like now I know why Adam Ivy just yells at you all people, shout out to Adam. I usually don't talk to artists.

Michael Walker:
That's awesome.

Daniel Grimmett:
They're not even on the playing field, man. Do the stuff, do the prep work to even get on the playing fields. You don't have a chance to win the game if you're not even on the field.

Michael Walker:
Well, 100%. It all starts with the music foundation of high quality content, the tip of iceberg. If you're trying to start the fire, you don't have any fuel to start the fire with, you could be shooting a flame thrower at this empty fire pit and nothing's going to happen with the fire. One thing that I wanted to reiterate to you that you said that I think is really important and tends to get swept under the rug because it's not necessarily the most attractive way to sell something to someone basically, I think there's too much get rich quick or just this messaging around thinking that you instantly need to be successful, and people who are just looking to do that immediately.

Michael Walker:
And the truth is, Jason Tonioli is one of the artists in our program right now. And he came into the program and he is already kicking butt with his music business. He's making over $10,000 a month already. And now in the last few months, he's made literally hundreds of thousands of dollars. But with the way that he describes his success, he's like, "I tell people that I'm a 10-year overnight success story." And what people don't necessarily realize is that, it isn't just overnight. Even the people who have huge opportunities where they blow up, it didn't just happen overnight, it took investment.

Michael Walker:
We reap what we sow. You don't just expect a beautiful apple tree to grow without planting a seed first. You need to plant the seed and you need to nurture it, and you need to let it grow. I am a big fan of... I think there's good and bad strategies that you could do, and you can certainly save a lot of time and a lot of money long term by working with people and getting mentorship, short cuts sometimes tens of years of your life, depending on what you're planning on doing. But I think that the people who are the most successful are the ones who they zoom out a bit and they're playing the long-term game.

Michael Walker:
They're playing the long-term game, they realize "Hey, I'm going to pay my dues, I'm going to invest upfront, I'm going to keep doing the right thing. I'm going to find the right guidance, the right mentorship to make sure that I am taking the right actions." But they have a much longer term way of looking at it than just get rich quick or just trying to figure out, they're not just focused on the short term.

Daniel Grimmett:
Yeah. And if you think about you want to be a doctor. Okay, well, you're going to pay a lot of money and you're not going to make crap for seven to 10 years, you're going to be putting in... So what's the difference? It's like, okay, there's obviously slightly more of a guarantee. That's the only difference. If you've got a medical degree, you'll probably not be starving. So then really all that it comes down to, the only difference is that you need to guarantee in order to sacrifice and do that. And if you need a guarantee, this just isn't for you.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. For us when we were starting to Paradise Fears, we had a big decision to make when we were graduating high school of whether do we want to pursue the band full time or do we want to go to college and do it part time. And a few of us had full-ride scholarships and I was planning on being a dentist. And so it was a big risk to consider that rather than taking the scholarships. But what we found out was that we could defer our scholarships for a year and basically 100% focus on the band give it our all for the entire year, and worst case scenario, we had a parachute that would be an emergency chute.

Michael Walker:
And I've heard about the wisdom of burning your bridges and going all outside. I get that sometimes, but I think it's more important just that you're focused and that you're all in and that you're committed. And for us, it helped us feel much better, much less stressed and anxiety and fear about whether this is going to work out. We were able to just focus on doing what it takes and putting all of our energy into it to making it work. So I think it's really, if you can mitigate risk, awesome, but there also is a balance where you don't want to be so focused on avoiding risk that you don't do the things necessary to stretch your comfort zone in order to actually be successful

Daniel Grimmett:
100%. I'm fine with having a backup plan. I get the argument that you shouldn't have... but yeah, I think it's fine. I worked in the corporate world from 18 to 24 before I made the full plunge to go full-time into music and I have that stuff to fall back on. It wouldn't be the worst thing, you have some privilege obviously, but wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, I'm not going to be homeless.

Michael Walker:
That's a good point too, I think, in terms of developing valuable skills. I've heard people talking about before, when you talked about having an asset, your music is an asset that appreciates over time and know developing yourself, investing in your own character and your own skillset and developing mastery, I think is one of the best investments that they can make. If you focus on high value skills, your assets that are going to lend themselves towards other areas in the future. I think like technology-

Daniel Grimmett:
If you try to be a producer, you're just going to add another hard career, just a heads up. So I know there's a lot of stuff that pushes that. So it's just as hard for them, it's still difficult.

Michael Walker:
What do you think just out of curiosity, if we were going to break down life skills, or business skills, or music career skills to a few top of components, what do you think are some of the most valuable skills that artists should look to like budget time and money into developing?

Daniel Grimmett:
I'll give a little bit of background on my outside of music work. And so I worked in sales, everything from telemarketing up to real estate. I worked for a real estate marketing firm and did sales for them. And what else did I do? Just marketing stuff. So I think working and being a telemarketer, I've learned a ton from that. You want to talk about getting over a fear and building thick skin, it sucks, you may cry a couple of times. It sucks for a while. It's not a great job. But I think doing that gave me the character I need, I wasn't afraid to know, I was like, "All right, whatever, cool. Move on to the next thing." So that helped, just knowing how to sell things, having a basic understanding of how the internet and digital marketing works.

Daniel Grimmett:
That's a great skill that you could deploy as a backup. It helps you now, and then you can deploy it as a backup. I'd say sales and marketing to me are very high level skills.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. 100%. I think I was thinking the same thing too. With Paradise Fears, I remember the one first thing that we did, we call it tour hacking. And basically, we walked up to people who were standing in lines and we introduced ourselves and we shared our music, and then we offered a CD. And that was certainly a big life changer for me. I was just a shy, awkward kid, and exactly what you're saying, that face-to-face conversations and relationship building, essentially it was a form of sales, door-to-door sales essentially was hugely valuable in terms of the life lesson and overcoming the fear of rejection.

Michael Walker:
So I think that, and I agree, marketing in general is one of the most valuable skills for yourself and your life and for your business. And also I think just products, product generate, honing in a product. I'm reading the autobiography of Steve Jobs right now. And Steve Jobs, I feel is a great example of someone who mastered the trifecta of... He's clearly a very charismatic marketer and he really knows how to position things. And he really focuses on the graphic interface and the user design, but also a big part of what he does is the packaging and the positioning and the core product itself. But he's not necessarily the one who... He has Steve Wozniak and he has other people who are helping to develop and do the creation of it.

Michael Walker:
It's the same way we're talking about producers. Producers can help to create the product, but having that positioning and the packaging, it's almost like another branch of marketing. I think good product creation at its finest is also directly connected to the marketing as well.

Daniel Grimmett:
I want to throw in something that just reminded me of it, you have a good memory. I can interrupt you and then you can remember what you were going to say for a minute later when I'd finally shut up. I can't do that. I'll definitely forget. So I apologize. But just the thing, a point I want to make, and this could be a whole another topic, so I don't have to go deep into it. But a lot of artists get freaked out about the business side of things, same with producers. They don't like the business side anymore than you guys do. They feel weird asking for the money, they don't enjoy it any more than artists. They don't want to get on TikTok and make stuff all day, the majority, obviously there's some that like it, but business is actually very creative.

Daniel Grimmett:
And I think at least when I work with producers and I'm able to make that shift in their head, then they love doing all that other stuff. They love marketing. They get all tripped up about sales because they don't want to hurt the artists, they want to make sure it's fair, the good ones, at least. So they get tripped up about sales, like dude, it's consulting, can you help him or not? That's all you're trying to figure out. Where are they at right now? Where do they want to be? Can you help them down that journey? If so, great, make them an offer. If not, no big deal. And marketing, putting out content, that's just reputation, it's showing people what you can do. It's creative.

Daniel Grimmett:
I'm giving examples on the producer side here, but hopefully it ties over to the artist> When you realize that marketing and what you're talking about, developing products, it's a fun, creative process. Yeah, there's a little bit of numbers and stuff, but you can have someone else do that stuff for you. You can have a business manager, but it's creative. Business is creative. I want artists to know that.

Michael Walker:
100%. I think that's a big key is recognizing that it can actually be really fun if you do the creative part of it. And also I think another thing that can trip people up sometimes is why people have a resistance to sales, and for good reason in some cases. Sometimes when you think of sales, you think of the slimy like used car sales person who's manipulative. There's this phrase, people hate to be sold things, but they love to buy things. People hate to be sold things, but they love to buy things. And I think that's a really great quote that just demonstrates that what we don't want is we don't want to be manipulated into getting something that isn't what we want or isn't good for us.

Michael Walker:
And so I think the people who are the best or at the top of the game long term. There is these people short term, you can do some trickery and you can lie about stuff and whatever, but that doesn't work long-term. But the people who are most successful long term are the ones who they align their sales with actually providing a real service. And it's not about manipulating, it's about what you're saying, it's about consulting, it's about helping people to make the best decision for them, if it's the right decision for them. And it's not always that case. Some of the best sales people they'll actively turn people away if they don't think that it's the right fit, and it's not going to be something that's actually valuable for them.

Michael Walker:
But I think that's one thing that can trip up artists too when it comes to things like selling their merchandise or selling anything related to their music. They're only going to be tripped up on it if they feel they're trying to convince someone to get something that's not really valuable. And so much of that is just a mindset shift and recognizing that something really is valuable and it's working hard to make it valuable so that you feel really excited about offering it.

Daniel Grimmett:
I'll say a couple things. One, I love buying cool merch. So definitely some, just make it cool. I love that stuff. The second thing is, that's why you want to work with the producer who isn't super cheap. The super cheap ones are struggling. And when you're struggling, you do desperate shit, and you take on projects that are not really a fit for you, or you have to oversell it, or stretch the truth on things just to get it because they've set up the economics in their business to where, even though it may look good on Instagram or whatever, behind the scenes, they're struggling. And that's going to affect you as the artist. I know it's tough to be, "Oh, well, this guy is 500 and that person's 1,000. That's twice as much."

Daniel Grimmett:
The guy or gal that charges 1,000 probably works on way less music than the guy that charges 100 bucks. So they can take much more time with it and really give you an experience that's going to help, because at that point, if you're not going to get the full experience, it's not going to go well, then why pay anything? Do you want to pay 1,000 and get what you want or do you want to pay 300 and get nothing?

Michael Walker:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that-

Daniel Grimmett:
Sorry to all the $300 producers listening to this.

Michael Walker:
All the $300 producers that are listening to this right now, go reach out to Daniel.

Daniel Grimmett:
Go watch YouTube. Start small, go watch YouTube videos.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. I think that's a really good point, and we can wrap up after this. But I think that generally, again, we're talking about short term, long term. I think sometimes people that are short term, they might be able to get away with charging way much more than the value that they're actually contributing. But again, the word is going to get out eventually, unless they go pick up shop and move somewhere where people don't know them, their reputation is going to come out. And so ultimately, I think that you get what you invest into. And if something costs more than generally, there's a reason for it, at least if it's a long-term thing and it's not just a short term sleight of hand type of situation.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. All right, man. Well, hey, this has been really fun. I hope that this is going to be really valuable for anyone listening to this, just to have some high level understanding of how their music and the production fits in, how to think about their music business. So you're awesome. Appreciate you having the conversation. And for anyone that's listening to this right now, who's either an artist who's interested in reaching out about production, or any producers who might be listening to this who is interested in connecting more, where do you recommend that they go to learn more from you?

Daniel Grimmett:
Yes. I think it's the website, it's darklabelmusic.com. And they can reach out, daniel@darklabelmusic.com. If you're an artist and you're like, "Hey, I just I'm really struggling to find a good producer," reach out. I'll connect you with someone. I don't get commissions off of doing any of that kind of stuff, I'll point you in the right direction. At the end of the day, yes, we represent producers, but my background is serving artists and I want to make sure you guys have... I like listening to good music, so I want to make sure there's much out there. So, feel free to reach out.

Michael Walker:
Heck yeah. Awesome. And like always, we'll put all the links that you need in the show notes to make them as simple as possible to reach out. All right. Thanks again, Daniel. This has been awesome.

Daniel Grimmett:
Thanks for having me, man.

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today. And if you want to support the podcast, then there's few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe, then I'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends on your social media, tag us. That really helps us out. Third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take their music career to the next level. The time to be a modern musician is now, and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.