Michael Walker: Yeah. All right. I'm excited to be here today with my new friends, Niklas Brantberg and Alex Papaconstantinou. Boom. Nailed it. We were backstage, getting the last names right. So, they're here with Overtone Studios. Niklas is the CEO, and Alex is the founder. They've revolutionized music curation, blending cutting-edge data insights with world-class creativity to deliver billions of streams monthly.

As the former Chief of Music at Epidemic Sound, Niklas spearheaded international expansion and built a globally renowned music catalog and artist roster. So, I'm really excited to have them on the podcast today to talk a little bit about the founding of their company and specifically about music partnerships.

Overtone Studios was one of the first companies that started providing mood music and is an expert in the field. They've been able to split the revenues from streaming platforms 50/50 with the artists. So, I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective today on where things are at and how someone listening to this right now can best grow their music career and audience in the modern music industry.

Thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast today.

Niklas Brantberg: Nice to be here.

Alex Papaconstantinou: Thank you for having us.

Michael: Awesome. So, to kick things off, maybe you guys could briefly introduce yourselves and share a little about your story and how you started Overtone Studios.

Alex: Absolutely. First of all, thank you for having us. My name is Alex. I'm half Greek, half Swedish, born and raised in Stockholm, Sweden. I actually started out as a musician—a drummer and bouzouki player, the Greek instrument bouzouki. I was studying in Sweden, and that kind of turned into more producing and writing songs.

I was doing that in Sweden, I was doing that for Greece, and then that expanded into Europe. Fast forward, I started working with RedOne, a talented producer, and we did a lot of things together for a few years. I gained a lot of experience working with world-renowned artists such as JLo, Marc Anthony, and Enrique Iglesias.

For some reason, many Latin artists—it just clicked, the whole vibe. Maybe it's my Greek side, I don't know, the global style. A few years ago, back in 2016–17, I started noticing streaming taking off, and I just loved the whole digital space. Coming from pop, we used to work at a quite slow tempo—you could work on a song for a month, two months, three months.

I just thought it was exciting with the whole technical development, being able to put out music faster, and having a quicker revenue stream in music. I started getting interested in releasing my own music, and being in Stockholm, close to Spotify, kind of triggered my interest even more. At the same time, I noticed a lot of instrumental music was taking off and becoming very popular, like piano music.

Being a producer myself, I naturally had a network of many great musicians, also from my music school. I went to a prestigious Swedish music school where I studied a lot of classical and jazz music. Many of the best musicians in Sweden—and some in the world—came from there.

I was very interested in getting started with that. The combination of producing and releasing my own music fascinated me. We started small, with just a few songs, and it quickly took off. It grew to the point where I had to step away from producing myself for a while because it became too big not to put my full attention into it.

As a label, I felt a responsibility for the music I released and the people I worked with. So, we built a small team around the label. Everyone in the team had a musical and creative background. The setup we had was more of a collaboration rather than a traditional label-artist dynamic.

That’s where the 50/50 revenue split came in. It was about doing things on equal terms. It was fascinating to transition from making music at a slow pace to working with musicians who were already doing their thing and helping them find a home for it.

So, that grew, and we got better and better at it. In the beginning, it wasn't at the level it is today. We continue refining it every day. Fast forward to 2022, we were experiencing a lot of success and had creators from all over the world, not just Sweden. That’s when we got acquired by Epidemic Sound.

For us, that was a tremendous help. They had much more experience than I did. They had international connections and expertise in running a company at that level. As a creator, I feel most comfortable focusing on the creative part, so Epidemic was a great partner for us. They could help with all the practical aspects and, of course, the creative side as well.

That partnership took us to the next level. And here we are today. It's been almost three years now, and the collaboration has been amazing. I'm super thankful to still be a part of it. Niklas is now the CEO, and I’m managing the music team.

All of the creators that we started with from day one are still with us. Today, one of the biggest things for us is maintaining the closeness of a tight-knit team, even as we grow. We want to avoid watering things down. We want to take care of what we release, keep the personality in the music, and maintain quality.

And, yeah, that's basically it.

Michael: Awesome. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. It sounds like a great example of the power of collaboration and partnerships—finding people who complement your skills and what you bring to the table.

Niklas, I'd love to hear from you as well. From your perspective, coming into the company and with your background at Epidemic Sound, I'm sure you have a great sense of what the biggest challenges are for artists today. What are they struggling with?

I’m curious to hear your perspective on how you got started and the main mission and purpose you set out to accomplish.

Niklas: Sure. It's always fun to hear about Alex’s background. I’m more of a failed musician myself—I was a wannabe rock star who played university gigs for cash and beer. But then I studied business and got into working for a company called Boston Consulting Group as a management consultant.

I really wanted to move closer to music, though, so I got in touch with Oscar Höglund, the CEO of Epidemic Sound, quite early on. I joined the company roughly 10 years ago when it was only 10–15 people. I spent a couple of years working on the commercial side, setting up partnerships worldwide and opening offices with salespeople—essentially getting our music out into the world.

Then, in 2019, I took over as the Chief of Music at Epidemic Sound. I was responsible for the artist roster, ensuring we signed great artists across all genres and showcased them well to Epidemic Sound users.

If you don’t know Epidemic Sound, it’s a platform that provides music for content production. Everyone from YouTubers to large international broadcasters and big brands uses Epidemic Sound music in their productions.

When I was in that role, we were focused on making music for sync. Some of that music also worked well for background listening in playlists, but that wasn’t our main focus. We started seeing other labels specializing in that area, and that’s how we got in touch with Alex.

We started talking, which eventually led to Overtone Studios joining the Epidemic Sound group. Then, a couple of years later, things came full circle when I moved from Epidemic to Overtone.

So, that’s been a great ride.

Michael: Awesome. Yeah. Beautiful things can happen when you marry together the music and the product with the marketing and the business. So how awesome.

One question that I have—and hopefully, this is a good place to start—is just something I'm genuinely curious about. With a company like Epidemic Sound and the current state of the music industry as it relates to AI and generative music, what's your perspective on the current landscape of what's happening in the music industry and what the future might look like for creators?

And what's your general idea or vision of where things are going with the help of these tools to be able to express ourselves?

Niklas: I'll do my best to give my perspective on it. We really believe in having humans at the core of what we do—human creativity and human craft.

We don’t do AI-generated music. We focus on our roster of great music creators.

With that said, of course, I think it's quite clear that AI will likely become a very powerful tool in the creation process. The marriage of human creativity and technology has always created great things, in my opinion. But right now, everything's a bit up in the air. We don’t know exactly how it's going to work and in what way.

I'm certain that there’s going to be a way for AI and human creativity to coexist. But personally, I’m much more intrigued by music where there’s a human element—where technology has been a part of the process—rather than pressing a button and generating a piece of music.

That’s where I stand, and where we stand.

Obviously, there’s a lot to figure out in the world of AI music, especially with the legal complexities—both around the output and the input, the training, and how to properly compensate the people who have contributed to it. There are still things to sort out before it becomes a natural part of the whole ecosystem.

Epidemic Sound has an interesting take on it, leveraging technology to adapt music to fit the right context. For example, if you find a piece of music that’s great for your video but you want it to be 47 seconds long instead of three minutes, or if you want a certain abrupt outro or a fade-out outro, AI can help make those small tweaks.

Using AI to enable people to get the most out of a piece of music is a great way to leverage the technology. It creates value for the end user without taking anything away from the artist because they can still be fairly credited and compensated for its usage.

I think finding ways that feel fair and transparent is the key. And I'm sure we're going to see more similar types of usage across the industry.

Michael: That’s super interesting. So it sounds like what you’re saying is that rather than using this type of technology to completely replace musicians, if we instead use it as a tool to extend the human creative process—to more rapidly and prolifically create music—then that’s a great thing.

But when you separate the human from it and it’s just purely robotic, then it might be missing some of that heart or soul.

Also, it’s really cool to hear how you integrate AI to adapt and create dynamic music that fits different needs. It reminds me of what Adobe is doing with generative expansion—where if an image is cropped wrong, you can extend it dynamically while still keeping the source material intact.

Niklas: Exactly. If you're an editor at an ad agency or producing something, and you're super skilled, you could edit an original piece of music to fit your content. But you’d have to be really skilled to do that.

This type of technology enables more people to do more with a piece of music, allowing it to spread even further across the world. As Alex said before, it helps that music find a home in different places.

And I think that's a good thing for everyone involved.

Michael: Alex, I'm curious if you have any feedback or perspective as it relates to the music creation process itself.

Have you been making music using these tools? Have you found a lot of value in using AI to assist with the music process? What’s been your perspective?

Alex: Well, when I started producing music, having your own sound bank was the thing. You had to have your own sound bank, and you had it on a disc. To get your hands on the right sounds was a big thing, so making the sounds yourself was incredibly time-consuming and very hard.

Now, obviously, today's Splice libraries are very convenient, and it's almost like having taken a step toward the AI tool. I totally agree with Niklas that I don't see it as black and white. I also believe in keeping the heart, the personality, and the human mistakes there, but also using AI as a tool and not just replacing us. So, I totally agree with him.

I think that with AI, we'll be able to produce volume, and with that volume, there’s going to be a lot of music. Someone needs to curate all that music. So, I think curation is going to be even more valuable going forward, even for musicians as well, because it's going to be easy to adapt your music, make different versions, and alternatives. I think human curation will still have a lot of value.

Michael: It sounds like what you're saying is that the curation part, when there's so much music, is about learning how to filter it down and pick the pieces that you want as a creative. It’s maybe more of the hat of the producer, where you have all these different tools at your disposal, so you can create on this canvas.

Where my mind goes is that we recently had Nolan Arbaugh on the podcast. Nolan is the world's first Neuralink patient who has a brain interface installed. He lost function below his neck, but he was able to use his Neuralink to create a song telepathically on the podcast.

It seems like we’re heading toward a world where it's easier and easier to create something with just an idea or a thought. Each of these tools is a step closer to the heart of creativity—the creative impulse, which is that thought or idea.

So, what I'm hearing from both of you is that we don't want to lose touch with that heart or that soul, but these are tools that help bring us closer to that main impulse: being creative and expressing your music.

I'm curious—if someone is listening to this right now, let’s say an independent musician whose biggest goal is to make music full-time in a sustainable way. Obviously, you've built an amazing platform where you collaborate and partner with artists to help them do that. Could you share a little more from your experience about what that partnership process looks like? And how would an artist listening to this know if they might be a good fit for something like that?

Niklas: Yeah, sure. Making a living in music has been a big challenge for a long time, and I think it still is. But the good news is that today, there are so many different ways to make a living in music. It's not just one option like it was in the past.

Our message is that the areas of sync—when talking about Epidemic Sound—and the area of mood music are often overlooked as options for artists. These are two really interesting and growing areas for music creators where you can monetize your music if you're super talented at what you do.

We’re a mood music record label—probably one of the biggest in the world—and we make music in a wide range of genres. Everything from ambient, classical, jazz, lounge, and lo-fi, plus many more genres I haven’t mentioned.

We are constantly looking for really talented musicians in those fields. If we believe we can find a home for that music, then we form a partnership. Our job is to distribute the music, mostly via partners. We work with all the major streaming platforms, as well as other apps like fitness apps, Instagram music, and, to some extent, sync licensing as well.

Our job is to spread that music as widely as possible and try to commercialize it. We have a 50-50 split, which makes it a true partnership—a win-win if we can distribute the music widely. That model has worked well for us so far, but we still feel like we’re only scratching the surface.

Mood music still has a long growth journey, particularly when thinking about it from a global perspective. Traditionally, mood music has been rooted in Western genres, and the biggest streaming platforms are based in Western Europe and the U.S. But user bases are growing all over the world, and there’s still a big untapped market for new music.

We’re convinced that’s going to continue growing. So, if you're a talented musician and have a passion for creating music that fits the right mood or moment, we could be a great fit for you. We’d love to hear your music and see if we can form a win-win partnership.

Michael: Awesome.

Alex: I also want to add that my best advice is to do the things that come naturally to you. Just like Niklas said, there are so many genres and subgenres, and it's easy to feel overwhelmed by the number of different roles you could take on.

Instead of trying to make something fit into a format, do what comes naturally to you and find a home for it. That makes it much easier to work long-term and stay consistent. The most successful people we collaborate with are the ones who do this.

Even if we don’t release their music, they still create. They could be an established pop producer, and after a session, they make lo-fi beats just to get it out of their system. It's something they do because they’re passionate about it.

Some people might think that making a lo-fi beat or a piano track is easy, but there are artists who are deeply passionate about it. They put their whole heart into it and have been doing it for most of their lives.

It's not just about jumping on a trend. It’s about doing what you love and matching that to what is popular right now. A lot of people love listening to instrumental music.

Michael: Awesome.

It sounds like what you're saying is that it's mostly about the fit with the music. If someone is authentically making music they truly enjoy, and they would probably be making music no matter what, and they work at it enough to make something remarkable—something really special—that might be a good fit for a partnership.

So, the best way to reach out would be to submit their music directly. As always, we'll put the links in the show notes for easy access.

One note—as you're talking about mood music, most people listening probably have a general idea of what you mean. But it might be good to dive a little deeper. For someone who doesn’t make that kind of music, what exactly is mood music?

In a way, all music is mood music. We listen to it, and it puts us in a mood—that's the benefit of it. But for anyone unfamiliar with this style, could you share a little about it? Why do you think it's growing so much right now?

Niklas: Yeah, sure. It is a bit of a weird term in a sense because, as you say, all music is there to create or enhance the mood. But the typical definition of this is that it's mostly instrumental music. In terms of genre, it could be anything, but the main use case is to soundtrack a moment or an activity.

Exactly. So, if you are studying, trying to sleep, doing yoga, meditating, having friends over, or hanging out on the patio, and you don’t have a specific artist or album in mind, you just want music to enhance the moment or activity—then I would say that's categorized as mood music.

But it’s not black and white. The edges of this are very blurry, and it could really be anything, to be honest. So yeah, a bit of a poor definition probably, but that's kind of how I see it. Alex, if you want to chime in?

Alex: Yeah, totally agree. And also, I think generally—not always, but generally—the music that we do, instead of taking focus, gives focus.

For example, with pop music, which I was doing before, you want to grab people’s attention and engage them in what's happening in this world. This is almost the opposite. Like Niklas said, you want to enhance yourself and disconnect from what’s happening.

So, it's just a vibe, which makes the dynamics in the music important—the vibe, the intensity. All of those things are factors that we consider when we're releasing music. And we're not always right, but we're trying to be right as often as possible.

Niklas: And to your question about why we think this is growing a lot—there are probably many different reasons for it. But a couple that popped into my mind:

One is obviously the constant flow of not just information, but also content coming at you these days. That’s increased exponentially in the last 10 years or so. I think that’s a factor—you’re overwhelmed with what’s coming at you, you don’t exactly know what you’re looking for, so you want a curated concept or experience to support you.

The second factor that comes to mind is the mental health or wellness aspect. That’s something people are thinking about more. People might be struggling to maintain focus—ADHD is on the rise, insomnia is on the rise, all these things. So, I think people are looking for strategies to help them when they’re doing activities, trying to sleep, trying to focus, and so on.

I think those two factors are big contributors to the trend of mood music.

Michael: That makes a lot of sense. Just thinking about the role of mood music soundtracking films, video games, and different things like the licensing world...

I don’t know if anyone listening has ever watched a movie that’s supposed to have background music but taken out the music and just watched it without. It makes such a huge impact on the overall feeling you get from the movie—how enjoyable it is, how entertaining it is.

As you were describing that, I was thinking—wow, is there any scene in life, just in our day-to-day, that isn’t somehow enhanced by having the right soundtrack playing? Even this conversation—if it ebbed and flowed, and during inspirational parts, we had music that was about inspiring yourself and believing you can do whatever you set your mind to...

I wonder—do you think there will be a world where, maybe with Epidemic Sound or something similar, every moment in our lives is augmented by the power of dynamic music that enhances our experiences and conversations? Almost like a personalized mix that follows us around?

And I guess with shows, it’s not always music—sometimes it fades out for important dialogue. But do you think that’s part of the future of humanity? That we’ll have more and more music soundtracking our day-to-day lives?

Niklas: To some extent, yes. Even though I’m an extreme music nerd, I also enjoy silence from time to time, and I think that’s a big part of life too.

But yeah, I think music will always be a big part of it. I think it’s going to become easier to personalize the music you consume and fit it into your life.

A lot of the music we create is meant to be consumed individually—music for studying, sleeping, yoga, and so on. But a lot of it is also made for shared experiences.

We’re not as involved in the live music world, but obviously, that’s part of it as well. So, I hope it doesn’t become too personalized to the point where we’re all walking around in our own bubbles. You also want those bubbles to meet and join together, if you know what I mean.

Michael: Yeah, that’s interesting. If two different soundtracks met, they could harmonize and blend together. It’s a different way of looking at relationships in general.

In some ways, it’s not expressed as music frequencies, but us having this conversation right now is like different frequencies coming together—different thought patterns and bubbles merging into something bigger than ourselves.

Cool. Well, hey guys, this has been a fun conversation—hearing more about the start of your company and what you're building with Epidemic Sound. At the very least, soundtracking the content that’s available online and extending creative opportunities for storytellers through their videos.

Thank you for coming on and sharing a little bit about what you're building. You mentioned that the best way for people to reach out would be to submit their music directly to the company?

Niklas: Yeah, exactly. You can just go to our website and click a link there to submit your music. Alex and his team will listen to it and reach out if it's something we’re interested in.

Michael: Rock on. Well, thank you both for being on the podcast today—it was a lot of fun.

Niklas: Great. Thanks so much, Michael, for having us.

Alex: Thank you so much. Thank you, Michael.