Michael Walker: All right. Excited to be here today with my new friend, Eric Mueller, also known as Skippy. Eric is an industry trailblazer who helped spearhead innovations like modern flexi disc technology. Looking forward to hearing more about what that means exactly, but also about vinyl presses after 30 years of an industry hiatus.

He has partnered with artists like Metallica, Foo Fighters, and Madonna, and he runs a record label called Pirates Press Records. I'm excited to catch up with him today to talk a little bit about what it takes to be successful as an independent artist in today's music industry—specifically about perseverance and being able to stick through and be consistent, especially when things are changing so rapidly.

Eric, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today.

Eric Mueller: Thanks for having me.

Michael: To kick things off, could you share a little bit more about how you started your record label and vinyl company and how you were able to partner with artists like Metallica, Foo Fighters, and Madonna?

Eric: Sure. In 2004, I was working for another company that was pressing records at the factory called GZ in the Czech Republic. I had a bit of a falling out with the person running that company and decided it was in everybody's best interest to start our own enterprise.

Using contacts I had made previously through other record label involvement, I got things going quickly and started pressing for many different independent record labels. It soon developed into a much bigger operation, and we worked with many major labels at the time who were just starting to realize the importance of vinyl. They saw that packaging mattered and that the collectible nature of vinyl was something that could get people really hooked.

The industry was changing into an almost free model, with people stealing music online, streaming, and downloading. Independent musicians were really suffering and not seeing the same amount of revenue from their releases. Many independent bands that had been around for a long time were used to receiving big advances to record their albums. Suddenly, that revenue wasn’t there anymore because they were no longer selling hundreds of thousands of CDs to support that kind of economy.

Vinyl filled a need for many of these labels and bands by creating a product people would choose to buy, feeling like they were actively supporting music. In some ways, it has gone hand in hand with streaming. As people stopped spending money in traditional ways to support music, vinyl remained strong and has continued to grow.

Over the past 20 years, there have been ups and downs, but in general, vinyl is still extremely strong. People are passionate about it and still see it as a way to support bands. At concerts, people continue buying records. Even during the pandemic, vinyl sales were incredible because vinyl is perfect for sitting at home. Nobody takes records in their car or listens to them on airplanes, but when people are at home, it's the perfect opportunity to put on a record and experience the magic of vinyl.

We've adapted over time to the changing needs of bands, record labels, and artists, creating products that people are still willing to pay for. We've faced obstacles like inflation and market saturation, but in general, vinyl remains strong, and people are still very supportive.

About a year into starting the manufacturing company, we realized that you can only press records for other people for so long before you get the itch to press them for yourself. We wanted to make creative decisions, work directly with artists, come up with cool colored vinyl ideas, and design unique packaging.

So in 2005, we started a record label. It was slow going at first, but after five to ten years, we gained momentum and really turned it into something that created a scene around it. Many of the artists and bands we've pressed records for have gone from being local bands to being known worldwide, particularly in the punk scene.

We don’t pigeonhole ourselves into one specific type of music, but punk has been our stronghold because that’s what my staff and I are really into. There’s also a lot of crossover with metal and thrash.

Michael: When you say punk, could you share a few examples of the kind of punk you’re talking about?

Eric: Sure. Street punk—kind of like Rancid, which is a band most people would know. They're on the more accessible, poppier side of punk. A lot of people who aren’t into punk assume it’s just someone screaming into a microphone, but that’s really not a big part of what we put out.

There are definitely some bands that fall into that category, but for the most part, I’d describe our music as Chuck Berry on speed—really fast, lots of great guitar work, catchy lyrics, and singalong-type songs. There’s also a lot of political underpinning in the music we work with.

Punk is a very accepting genre, open to all types of people, and we try to focus on that. The bands we work with are usually bands we’re friends with and want to support, rather than just chasing the next hot artist. That’s been the ethos of the label.

We try to balance new bands, legacy bands, and artists in need of support who might not be getting it from other labels. We do our best to support them and work creatively to come up with exciting projects.

Usually, we give bands ultimate creative control. We use our knowledge and experience with vinyl manufacturing to guide them—helping them create products that aren't too expensive but still make an impact and get people excited to invest in them.

Michael: Awesome. There’s a lot of good stuff we could dive into, but the first thing that comes to mind is vinyl itself.

A lot of people might see it as an outdated medium for listening to music since there are more convenient ways to do it with streaming. But there are still so many people buying and collecting vinyl.

As someone who has shipped out so many records, if you had to give a rough ballpark, how many vinyl records do you think you've printed and shipped?

Eric: Somewhere in the 50 to 75 million records range.

Michael: Or one or two here and there on a weekend or so. Wow. 50 to—

Eric: Yeah, just a couple.

Michael: Records. That's amazing. And yeah, so you're someone who clearly has firsthand experience seeing people buy these, listen to them, and collect them. There's magic there. I'm curious to hear your perspective—why is that? Clearly, it's not because they're looking for the easiest, most convenient way to stream. So what is it that makes vinyl magic? And how can that apply to multiple aspects of an artist's career?

Eric: There are reasons why people collect vinyl. I think it is somewhat genre-specific. There's tradition involved in certain types of genres, whether it be punk or heavy metal. A band feels like they've actually achieved something when they record a record and simply put it out digitally.

It exists, but it doesn't exist. In some ways, in a lot of people's minds, it doesn't have that tangible form that people are used to and have been accustomed to their entire lives. People in their forties and older certainly lived through a time when a physical product was that tangible sense of achievement. When you had a record come out, whether it was a vinyl record or a CD, it was still something physical. And I think that definitely still exists today.

One of the best moments we get in our position in the industry is literally handing an artist their record for the first time. They've spent all this time in the studio, working with people on the music side, and finding artists to collaborate with to create a design that matches the music. When they hold that physical product in their hands, it's a real sense of achievement for them.

For us, filling that role and turning that dream into reality is one of the best parts of what we do.

I feel like that exists with the fans as well. If you're a fan of an artist and you simply stream their music, you can enjoy it in a certain dimension. But when you actually hold it in your hands, it holds a different dimension.

People in America specifically love collecting things, whether it's cars or baseball cards. There's definitely an element of our society where people like collecting things. For people who are into music, vinyl records serve the same role as a baseball card would if you're a big fan of a specific baseball player.

If you collect their baseball cards, you feel like you're a bigger fan. Even though they may not need financial support in the way an independent artist would, you're still showing them support by purchasing those cards and making them valuable. Vinyl records are the same thing.

A lot of people collect them because they love the way they sound. They have a lifestyle or a part of their life that allows them to listen to those records and enjoy them in a relaxed setting. You're not listening to a record while driving down the freeway on your way to work. But when you get home, that can be a really relaxing, enjoyable way to listen to music, and people love that.

It's a tradition. People have become accustomed to listening to a record, flipping it over, or DJing records in certain genres.

The younger crowd, who may not be accustomed to that tradition, in some ways are collecting vinyl more like baseball cards. Some people are collecting records, putting them on a shelf, and feeling a sense of achievement. Or in certain cases, depending on the type of record and packaging, they may put them on the wall.

All of those things hold value. There’s no one real reason why vinyl has remained successful. I think it's a combination of all of those things.

That new crowd, that new generation of vinyl collectors, has been given a totally different opportunity to collect records because people are doing it in a different way. There are a lot more fancy types of colored vinyl available now. There are multiple versions of records being created for different retailers, some of which are valued more because they're made in smaller quantities.

Some people don’t care about those things, and a lot of people do. But in general, it has created a culture around vinyl that’s really interesting and dynamic.

When you find something you love, you grab hold and you don't let go. That's really why people have remained consistent with their vinyl collecting.

Things like the economy changing or inflation will certainly affect how much people can invest in vinyl, how many records they can collect, and the types of records they can buy. But in general, that love of vinyl is not going anywhere. In fact, it's growing.

We've got young generations of people picking up Taylor Swift records and starting a collection that way. Our customers span the gamut in terms of their market—whether they’re people in their forties and fifties listening to classic records or genres that have aged in a certain way, or brand-new pop artists, or even children's records.

In my head, children's records are the ones that mean the most because they represent the future of vinyl. That's someone buying a record for a child that might be their first record. That could be the gateway to them collecting records for their entire lives.

As they develop their taste in music, there's now enough vinyl being produced in almost every genre for them to be a vinyl collector. That's one of the most wonderful things about where vinyl is at right now—it’s pretty ubiquitous in terms of genres and types of music.

Michael: Yeah, it's super interesting. So what I'm hearing you say is that there's a certain magic to vinyl. There’s an enjoyment that comes from it. It’s not necessarily for everyone, but for the people who love collecting, there's actually magic in getting something tangible and holding it in your hand.

One thing I'm curious about—I’ve always found the idea of doing drops interesting. Like with shoes selling for hundreds or thousands of dollars, that type of business or release strategy—where there’s a limited quantity, you drop it, and there's scarcity—drives up the value of the collectible.

In some cases, the thing can actually be sold for more than what you bought it for. And, you know, there are cases—gosh, who was it? Was it Beastie Boys? They had a vinyl that sold for like $2 million or something like that. They made one copy.

Eric: There are some money grabs out there for sure. Some of the folks who come up with the ideas for those limited quantities are doing it for that reason—what you just said—in terms of creating a scarcity that makes things more valuable.

But some people are doing it genuinely because they want to have an inner circle of fans that can feel like they are the biggest fans. And I think that's a really interesting take on it because it's not like they're making thousands or millions of dollars on these records. They may charge 40 or 50 for the limited run of a hundred or 250 copies of a record, but it's not going to pay the bills for the year to sell a hundred records, so to speak.

And so I think that those folks are doing it in a way that really makes the collector feel special—part of a smaller crowd of people who are more loyal, bigger supporters. They're finding out about these drops, these releases quickly. They're sitting on their computers, waiting for them to go live, and they buy them.

And they keep them. It's not like people are just buying these to resell. That does exist, but that's not the majority of what's happening. Just like going to a concert and buying a VIP ticket where you get to meet the artist, it really does make these people feel like they're connected to the artist.

And in some ways, especially for independent artists, the best marketing you have is word of mouth. When somebody becomes that uber-collector or that very big fan of an artist, they're turning all their friends into fans of that artist because they believe so strongly that this is a worthy venture—that the money is being well spent, whether it's for a record, a concert, or whatever.

In a way that doesn't rip people off. Like I said, they're not spending thousands of dollars on these records. They're spending a fair amount of money, but that money is often going to the artist. Because there are so many artists now—because of technology, because of the internet—who can release things themselves or who are working with independent labels who aren't taking all the money.

They're working in a really equitable way with the artists and helping the artists create a vehicle for success for themselves. Bands that tour all the time are selling tons of records, and that's really what's paying for the gas to get from one show to another.

When a band has a really nice product on that merch table and people can spend 25 or 30 bucks on a record, a lot of that money is going into the band's kitty. It's helping that band create a sustainable venture. That means that the band is going to come back, play again, be around for a while, and feel like they're succeeding. Feel like they're not just working in vain and unable to continue doing what they're doing.

They obviously love what they're doing. Being in a band is like being in a marriage with five people. So to get in a van and play 100, 200 shows a year is a serious sacrifice for a lot of people. At the very least, being able to make enough money to not be struggling is a goal for a lot of independent bands.

And vinyl has certainly been able to play a significant role in that. As have t-shirt sales. T-shirt sales are also significant in that regard. But vinyl is something that's more tied to the music. And the music is the reason why all of this is happening.

So I think that vinyl, like you said, is magical in a lot of ways—for the collectors and for the artists who are releasing them. And that's always been something we've held central in our company. It keeps us moving forward. It keeps us happy and fulfilled in what we're doing.

If we were just selling clothes hangers or some sort of intangible object, it would be a lot harder to wake up in the morning and talk to customers who may be giving you grief. But in our world, we can always keep in perspective why it's so special that we have the role we do—because we're able to help these people turn that musical dream into a reality. It allows them to make some extra money, keep the gears moving, and keep that next record on pace to be released.

And it's a special place to be.

Michael: Good stuff.

You know, what just popped into my head was—this is kind of a random tangent—but in physics, E = mc² is this big equation where Einstein basically realized that when you have a physical piece of matter, something that's tangible and concrete, it has immense energy—immense stored power.

And just a little bit of that, when it's opened up, when matter is not compressed, can be explosive. It can really go a long way.

And it seems like one of the core themes in your journey and what you've found with vinyl is that it's really about taking these dreams and turning them into reality.

The music, the ideas—the digital space, the internet—we live in this world where everything is very digital. And that ability to turn something into a tangible asset you can hold in your hands, something that actually has matter to it, is really powerful. It unlocks something for those people who collect it.

So I think it's really cool.

Eric: Yeah, that's a great take on it, for sure. One of the things you mentioned previously was the flexis, and they're one of the cheapest ways you can make a record. Even though they're just for a single song, generally, they are pretty powerful in exposing people to the power of a tangible record.

A lot of people have given us feedback that one of the first records they ever got was a flexi. Whether it was handed out for free or came in a magazine, it's special, and it kind of unlocks that magic for a lot of people because it's the first time they've seen an analog piece of music work.

I don't know if you're familiar with the Boy Scout record player concept, where you can take a piece of paper, roll it up into a cone, tape it up, put a sewing needle on the end, and manually spin the record. You put the needle down, and it plays. For a lot of kids, especially, their minds are blown because kids today think music just comes out of a phone.

It's special to see this, and then, once you actually look into it a bit further, you realize that for generations, people have been turning music into an analog format that is tangible—something people can reproduce and send across the world for anybody to listen to.

Vinyl is special in that regard. It has that tangible element that streaming will never have. You can create 3D renderings of dead artists all day long, and that can create some magic too, but there's something about the tradition of listening to a record. A lot of people's parents had records, and it was the only format of music at the time. They inherit those collections, dive into their parents' taste in music, and decide if they like it or not. Either way, it creates this connection to the past that people tend to appreciate.

The same thing happens in fashion, where people go out to thrift stores and use old fashion to create their new fashion. It's the same connection—old and new—that remains constant. It fades, it goes up and down, and certain genres or styles remain popular or not, but they do come back.

Right now, I feel like vinyl is really strong, and it's kind of ironic because everybody's lifestyle is so much more conducive to listening to music on a phone, a computer, or whatever digital format fits their lifestyle. But it's the same as going to a thrift store and buying old clothes versus ordering something brand new on Amazon that gets delivered to your house.

It's interesting that people still care about the past in a world where everything is so fast, so new all the time, and, in some ways, so disposable. When you have a record, it's not something you can just press skip on—it still exists on your shelf. If you want to get rid of it, you have to go through the effort of getting rid of it. It's not as easy as just hitting delete on your phone.

That gives it power too. People keep records and then dive back into them years later when they haven't listened in a long time. That's one of the wonderful things about people who collect records and have large collections—it flows and ebbs with their lifestyle.

You can do the same thing on your phone with playlists, but there are memories associated with those tangible products. Whether it's remembering that you bought it on a trip to New York at a record store when you were 16, or that you picked it up with all your friends on the same release day, there are memories there. It creates something bigger in people's minds than just listening to music digitally.

Michael: That compressed energy—it's something tangible. You can hold it, you can collect it, and it creates a more sacred experience around listening to music.

It creates more importance versus just playing something in the background without thinking about it. This makes you actually sit down and intentionally create a space to listen to it.

You mentioned—was it called flexis? Can you share a little bit more about what exactly a flexi is and what makes it such a good starting point for people when it comes to vinyl?

Eric: They were in all kinds of magazines. They were released in gigantic quantities when vinyl was the main format for music. The largest press of a record ever made was Whale Sound, produced by National Geographic. It came in the magazine, and anybody who had a subscription or bought one at the store got a copy of it.

Today, flexis are a much smaller thing. The company in Florida that made them went out of business in the '90s and didn't produce flexis for probably 15 years. We weren't able to get any information about how they were made, what kind of equipment was used, or anything like that. So we kind of started from scratch, coming up with a way to produce them using a similar plate to what we use to make normal records.

We invented a press to make them using an old machine that originally made flooring. We reconfigured it and figured out a way to produce a new version of a flexi with better sound quality and more options in terms of aesthetics.

Over the past 10 years or so, we've really tried to show people that these are a great way to promote music. They can be used as giveaways or mailings to let people know about future releases. They can be an incentive to buy a special version of a normal vinyl record, included with an unreleased song or a live version of a track.

They've been used in so many different ways, but they're inexpensive, so it's not a gigantic investment. Compared to a print advertisement in a magazine, they make a bigger impact. When you're handed an actual vinyl record as a promotional device for another vinyl record, a concert, or a tour, it holds more meaning. It has that compressed power you spoke of, versus just an ad in a magazine where you flip the page and it's gone.

With a vinyl record, you have to do something with it. It's in your hand—you have to put it on a shelf or in a box. That creates a connection.

We've had lots of series of them made by different record labels and artists. We've done different things with them on our own record label to help promote the format, like releasing an entire record of flexis. In addition to releasing a band's full-length, we'll take the 12 songs and make 12 different flexis, each with artwork corresponding to a specific song. It gives off a different aesthetic and a deeper look at each track on the record.

I find that really special because music is so much more disposable these days. Any song that ends up on a record should be meaningful—it should be able to stand on its own. When people use flexis to highlight the importance of an album by giving each song its own physical product, it shows how much those songs matter.

Many flexis today sound just as good as a normal record. When you create a physical product that’s like a piece of art and has a song on it, it’s really special. One of my favorite things we do is making picture flexis—full-color printed like a picture disc, but in flexi form. They're still really cheap, costing less than a buck to make, and people love collecting them.

It's still a growing thing. Not every artist is making them yet, but people who collect vinyl—especially vinyl-centric record labels—realize this is an important part of the overall vinyl landscape.

Our company has been making them since we built our machine in 2010, so we're about 14 years in. We make hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of them a year. Many are made in small quantities, but plenty are produced in large quantities too. They've become really effective promotional tools for bands and record labels.

Michael: Super cool, man. I'm really excited to dive in more and check those out. I might end up ordering some myself.

Eric: Well, check out the ones on our record label. Actually, we have a thing right now where if you purchase something off of our website, you can just add free flexi discs to your order because we really do feel strongly about their role in vinyl, and we want to make sure that people aren't passing them up and that they're something worth collecting.

Michael: That's a nice segue to the end of our conversation. Eric, first, I just want to say thank you for coming on here and sharing some of your expertise and experience.

I think that vinyl and collectability—what you just shared—really is a nice testament to what makes music special and what makes everything that we're doing here matter. It really is that tangible connection. It's the community that forms. The collectability seems to play an important role in that.

So, thank you for sharing some of your insights.

For anyone listening or watching right now who is interested in learning more about your record label or printing some of these flexis or their own records, where can they go to learn more?

Eric: If you want to learn how to get a record made, check out our website at piratespress.com. And if you're interested in seeing some examples of the really cool products we can make, you can check out our record label at piratespressrecords.com.

Both of these are really geared towards independent musicians, and our big thing is helping people who need guidance in getting these records made.

There are a lot of places that make records these days. Vinyl has gotten much more popular, and there are a lot more factories than when we started. But our big thing is really working with people to help them succeed.

We've had so many success stories of record labels and bands starting off with a small press, and years later, they're coming to us for 8,000 records. It's a wonderful growth experience to see these people realize what vinyl can do to help what they're doing—whether it's for promotion or making money. Either way, we have a unique take on it, and we work closely with our customers to help them understand all the options at their fingertips.

We want to help them create vinyl that matches their vision and helps them build that extra-special connection with their fans. We're really happy when new customers come through the door and are grateful for the expertise we have. We love sharing that knowledge and working with them to create a system that works.

Michael: Awesome. As always, we’ll put all the links in the show notes for easy access.

Eric, thanks again for taking the time to be on the podcast today.

Eric: Thanks for having me. Have a great year.

Michael: Yeah. Happy 2025! Let's go.