Michael Walker: YEAAAH! All right. Excited to be here today with my new friend, Terry Cole. Terry is someone who grew up immersed in a collection of over 50,000 records, turning his family's passion for music into a lifelong career. He founded Colemine Records in 2007, evolving it from a hobby into a thriving independent label with global recognition.

And he co-founded a record shop, transforming his love for vinyl and music into a sustainable business and creative hub. I'm excited to have him on the podcast today to talk a little bit about his experience with music as it relates specifically to selling branded physical products and really turning your music into something more tangible that people can actually hold onto.

So, Terry, thank you for taking the time to be here today.

Terry Cole: Yeah, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. I love talking about all this stuff all the time, so I'm game.

Michael: Awesome. Let's do it. So yeah, to kick things off, maybe for anyone who is meeting you for the first time, could you share just a little bit of an introduction into your story and how you started the record label? What would you say is the main problem you've set out to solve?

Terry: There are no problems. Everything's easy all the time. This is a really easy industry to get rich quick. Interview over.

All right, cool. You heard it here first, folks.

So, like you said, I grew up in a house full of records and came to love funk, soul, jazz, and hip-hop as a teenager—high school, college, all that sort of stuff. I started selling records on eBay with my dad, and that was how I paid for my undergraduate and grad degrees.

While I was in college, I became interested in music production and obsessed with labels like Blue Note, Atlantic, Prestige—the idea of labels was very appealing to me. The idea of building a brand was very appealing. I fell in love with Sharon Jones and Daptone, Truth & Soul, and the whole Brooklyn soul revival scene that was happening around 2006, 2007, 2008.

And yeah, I was just like, "Hey, I want to do that. I want to figure out how to make 45s because I love 45s. And how do I do that and not lose money?" That was my original motivation—how do I make records and not lose money? And that's kind of still the core mantra of the company in a way.

That was 2007. I was a high school science teacher for about eight to ten years in public schools where I'm from. Then I quit teaching and opened up a record store with my brother in 2015. Since then, it's been a roller coaster—figuring out how to run a brick-and-mortar retail operation in a contemporary way and how that informs the label and vice versa. They definitely teach each other.

It's been an amazing way to learn how to run a record label through the lens of a record store. What's cool is, as a record store, you are the target for a lot of marketing from labels and artists. You get to see it directed at you, and you get to see what works, what doesn’t work, what feels good, what doesn’t feel good. We've taken those insights over the years and applied them to our own label, and it's been pretty cool. But yeah, that's my short history.

Michael: Awesome. That is definitely a unique perspective—someone who is both receiving the marketing and also using that to learn what's working right now and what's not.

Terry: Yeah, because you see what motivates a customer. You're like, "Oh, they bought this because of this marketing effort," or "They're in this store because of this marketing effort," or "They did not like how this made them feel." It's a cool perspective. There are a lot of really cool, active independent labels in this world, and from my estimation, it's thriving.

Michael: Awesome. Absolutely. It definitely seems like the age of the independent artist and independent record label is emerging. Having both the experience of receiving all those marketing campaigns and working with artists through your record label—you joked earlier about how there are no problems at all for musicians, easiest thing ever, we could just end the interview here.

But obviously, that was a joke because it really is challenging. So I'm curious, from your perspective, what are some of the biggest challenges that artists and independent record labels are facing right now?

Terry: I think one of the challenges that shows up a lot with artists that I chat with is trying to make the jump from it being a hobby to a full-time career. And I wish I had any wonderful answers to that question, other than time, consistency, and dedication to it.

There have definitely been pivotal moments in my career in this industry that I can cite as a shift, but all of them were measured risks. When the label started, it was just about not losing money—pressing a thousand records and being able to sell enough to justify another one—because I was a teacher, and it was just a hobby.

Then, when I decided that I wanted to make a go of this, it wasn’t like I just quit my teaching job and said, "I am now a record label." Because record label income, as a lot of folks know, is similar to artist income. It’s like, "Oh, I got a check for a sync. Okay, now a bunch of expenses. Oh, I got a digital check." It’s very volatile.

The idea of jumping from teaching to running a record label full-time was terrifying and probably not advisable. A record store seemed like something where I thought, "Okay, I know how to do this. We can grow this, but it’s in the same world. It’s going to allow me to be in this world all the time and grow this thing while still having some sustainable, reliable income."

We did that, and I would say that happened for another five to six years before I could really say, "Oh yeah, if you wanted to, you could pull Colemine away, and it would sustain itself and my staff even without the shop." That’s probably something that only happened in 2020 or 2021.

So, that’s the problem I see show up the most consistently—people trying to go from here to here. And I think the real answer is: know who you are, consistently make art that you are proud of, and consistently be trying to learn best practices, which are changing all the time.

And don’t feel pressured. Don’t feel like if you aren’t making a living off of your art that you’re failing somehow. Just do it and take your temperature every six months and see how things are going. Is this always going to be a sustainable hobby? Is this going to be half of your income? That’s okay. I don’t think the be-all-end-all goal for everyone has to be making a full-time living off of their art. It doesn’t have to be in order for you to be creatively and artistically satisfied.

Michael: That’s a very no-BS answer. It’s very true. It sounds like what you’re saying is that there’s not necessarily a rinse-and-repeat, one-size-fits-all solution that’s going to help people be successful. It’s really a matter of dedication, time, and investment.

One of my favorite analogies is planting a seed. When you first plant the seed for a tree, if you expect that it’s immediately going to start bearing fruit, you’re probably going to be disappointed. In that initial stage, it’s just this little tiny blossoming thing, and it has no fruit.

It sounds like you're saying, "Look, this took me five or six years of really investing, nurturing, and fertilizing it." You have to be willing to put in the time and energy to fertilize that tree in order for it to really start to bear fruit.

Terry: Yeah, 100%.

The other reality that I think a lot of folks don’t recognize—or at least people I talk to sometimes don’t recognize—is that we live in an age where the consumer-facing playing field is seemingly level. Meaning, anyone can put their music on Spotify. You can put your music on Spotify. I can record myself, hit upload, and it’s there, right?

40 years ago...

Michael: Yeah. Okay, we're recording that, and we throw it up on Spotify. Quick.

Terry: Done. As long as it's 30 seconds, we can monetize it. That's what matters.

Michael: With 30 seconds of that. That was my three seconds.

Terry: So, like 40 years ago, there were filters, and those filters generally were record labels, right? And now we're in this age where there are fewer filters, fewer barriers and boundaries, which, artistically, it's like, "Oh, this is good." But it's like, yeah, but not everyone that says, "I want to make it"—if everyone that wants to make it as an artist decides they want to do it full time, it's just not feasible. You know, and you look at so many artists that were even signed to deals in the seventies and eighties and still couldn't make a living from their art, even though they had the support of a record label, but it just didn’t take. People didn’t like it. That's a thing people don't talk about. Because it's hurtful to say, like, "Yeah, but what if your stuff’s not good or no one likes it?" Because, I mean, that’s a negative thought that you don't want to think about. But in the big picture of things, if everyone has the ability to put their stuff up all the time, it's a very crowded space, you know, and it becomes even more difficult to stand out. Which is why I think I've taken the approach of, like, slow and steady and just believing in myself and being like, "Hey, I think this is cool," and even if no one else does, I'm gonna do it in a way where it’s sustainable, at the very least. I think sustainability is huge. And I don’t mean that from an environmental perspective. Like, I think that’s a huge thing, because I see bands sometimes take huge swings, and sometimes it works. But if it doesn’t, you can’t do it again. You know what I mean? Unless you just have infinite cash. But like, if you go and swing and get a 50K production budget and it doesn’t pan out, if I’m the label and you’re like, "Hey, time to make LP two," I’m gonna be like, "Ooh, like, we need to rethink our expense approach to this record." Whereas if you go out and you spend five to 10K to produce a record, and it does okay, then you’re like, "Oh, cool. We can do this again and again and again." And then you can build a thing. And I don’t know, it sounds boring and low-risk, but, I mean, that’s been my philosophy: taking measured risks instead of massive financial swings. 'Cause I think that puts you in a very difficult spot.

Michael: That’s smart. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like what you're saying is that, given the choice between investing in quality or quantity, that generally you would lean towards making smart, measured risks. And, you know, if you have a 50K budget, maybe rather than blowing it all in one production budget, if you split it up and make it last, you're going to learn, and you’re going to get better with each release as opposed to just one big splurge. And then, you know, it's sort of like one swing, and you’re in and out. That makes a lot of sense.

Terry: Yeah, man, I made a lot of baseball analogies this year about, like, a lot of our release calendar. And the analogies were, like, everything we have on the calendar, I’m talking about 2025, everything we have on the calendar for 2025 is like... everything’s going to be a single or a double, and maybe somebody, like, unexpectedly might squeeze out a triple, and that’s like, "Hell yeah!" But if every time we go in expecting to hit a home run, everyone is going to be disappointed. You know, like, everyone on that team, if we don’t hit a home run, everyone’s going to be bummed. And expectations have become a paramount point of discussion over the last four or five years with artists, even before we get involved, because there are three tenets when you might sign an artist: Do I like the music? Do I vibe with the music? Do I get along with this person as a human? And do we have the same expectations and approaches for how we’re going to try to grow this project? And if one of those things is not there, then we cannot do business. Because even if I think it’s going to be massively successful, I’m just going to say, "Not for me." Because I’m not going to put my staff and myself through hell to make a bunch of money. Like, it’s just not worth it. It’s just not worth it. So yeah, those three things have really arisen over the last four or five years. It makes it really obvious when, you know, we sign an artist. It’s like, "Oh yeah, duh, you check all of these boxes. This is easy."

Michael: I mean, it does feel like that’s different from the traditional model, from the standpoint of when I think about home runs versus going for singles. It seems like a lot of the traditional industry was about, like, literally just swinging for home runs, and like, you just keep swinging and keep swinging. And you burn a lot of people. A lot of people strike out a lot, but then you have like, you know, one or two that are like, "Wow, like, this was a home run." And like, now we're just saying, like, go all in on this one.

Terry: And that pays for all your other mistakes as a label. But those other mistakes? They’re just sitting in the wind.

Michael: Yeah, it’s true. I mean, I like your approach a lot more, from the standpoint of... it’s just like, I don’t know, it’s nicer. It’s nicer to, like, all the people who... you’re not burning so many bridges, you're not striking so many people out because you're actually, you know, making steady progress.

Terry: It’s way less sexy. But, you know, that's the Midwest. But no, it feels way, just, like I said, sustainable, repeatable. You know, you can’t, as an artist—unless you, like I said, unless you have infinite cash flow—I just can’t imagine swinging so hard on your first one. Especially when I think about so many records that I love that were made with no budget. And a lot of times, things made on a budget force you to be creative in a lot of different ways, and a lot of times, the result is really cool. I heard... this relates to that, but to music videos—regarding music videos and budgets, that’s the thing that, you know, whenever labels get together, we always talk about music videos. Every year we have a secretly label summit in Bloomington, and it’s amazing because you get to hang out with a bunch of people who do the same silly stuff as you. And, you know, music videos are always a topic of conversation. I was, like, the first one, like, five years ago to be like, "This shit’s a waste of money. We should be making short clips for like announcements." And like beyond that, no one’s watching a full music video. I was like, if eventually we had the budget to make a full music video, there is validity to that because YouTube is an amazing discovery tool. And if I want to learn about an artist and I go to their YouTube page and they have three music videos, I can get enveloped by their world. So, like, there is validity to it. But when you're starting off, I’m just like, "Yo, just do some... and now it’s like, obviously, short form is everything." But somebody at a... I can’t remember what label said it—was either Dead Oceans or maybe somebody from JagJaguar said, "The best music videos are either under 100,000 or over 20,000." And I was like, "That’s it." You know, you either don’t have any money and you’ve got to call in favors and be creative as shit with whatever you have, or you have a big budget and you can go make a really amazing music video because you have a massive budget. But everything in between is just sort of like, "Eh, it’s fine." You know? And coming from someone who’s paid for a lot of four and five thousand-dollar music videos, I can say, "Yeah, we're fine." But that relates to production, you know? So many cool records are made DIY at home on a four-track. You know? I mean, we still make almost all of our records on this eight-track that I’m looking at. And... there’s something charming, and it forces you into a creative box, I think. So, I don’t... yeah, I’m always about keeping production costs down.

Michael: Super interesting. I mean, what this is making me think of is something that's been on my mind a lot lately, which is the difference between bootstrapped businesses versus venture-funded businesses. And that's in the tech industry or the investment world, but for musicians, the equivalent would be like DIY indie musicians versus having a major record label that funds hundreds of thousands of dollars to break you as an artist.

We're seeing a rise in the power of independent artists to distribute their music with less than $1,000 on a music video. I'm curious, as someone who is steeped in this world and working directly with artists, helping them in a smart and sustainable way, as opposed to only going for home runs, what are some of the most practical lessons, tips, or strategies that you'd recommend to an artist who's listening to this right now? Let's imagine they’re an independent artist just starting out. They’ve invested in three songs that they feel really proud of, and when people listen to them, they say, "Oh, this is actually good. I like it." But now they're just wondering how to get it in front of the right people, build a community, or monetize it. What would your recommendations be for someone like that?

Terry: I mean, I think there's a lot of different approaches. I can speak to my personal perspective on how projects come to me, but I can also speak beyond that to a lot of other labels and how they find out about things.

Well, I mean, if I was an artist, I’d start there. I am an artist; I make records. But if I didn't have any sort of label support and I was just starting off, making some songs I was into, I’d release them one by one. I would let the algorithm do its thing, feed the beast as long as I could. Hopefully, I’d have a way to sustainably make this music. Hopefully, I didn’t break the bank making these three songs, so that while I'm working on releasing them, I can go make three more. I’d steadily release things as singles on the streaming services. Every six to eight weeks, I’d drop a new tune and just feed the beast because if it's cool and people like it, and you do all the best practices in the DSP space, it's going to find an audience. It’s going to find some audience, and how big it is depends on a lot of things. That’s what I would do if I were starting off.

Now, that relates to how projects get to labels. For me, almost every single project we’ve released has come from someone already on the label, which makes it sound gatekeeping, but it’s not. I’m open to listening to anything. I listen to every demo that comes in through our inbox, and I try to respond to every one. But for me, when I’m going for sound, sonically and musically, it has to be something I like, and the production has to be there, too. Our label has an aesthetic, and I’m looking for those two things. So it makes sense that people who are already in my world, who already understand the aesthetic, are more likely to say, "Hey, my buddy made a record. I think you might think it’s cool." That’s usually how it happens. I can’t think of any projects that came through a cold submission with no connection to the label at all.

Having said that, I think I’m the outlier in how projects come to me. I know a lot of labels discover things on socials and DSPs. I know indie A&R folks who go through their Discover Weekly, trying to find those diamonds—those less than 1,000 monthly listeners. And if you want to get a gold medal, you get those with less than 100 monthly listeners. That’s a thing.

So, if I were a new artist, my strategy would be to be active on socials and actively release things through streaming. I’d never do anything that didn’t feel natural or like myself. On socials, I think chasing someone else’s strategy is silly. Leaning into who you are as an artist and a person, sharing as much or as little as you want, that is sustainable. If you're putting on an act every time, it's not sustainable. But if you’re just being you—like me, I’m 45, I like cats and dogs, and I like drum breaks—that's what I post. Recording dirty drums, cats, and dogs, me fishing, and oh yeah, here’s this new song. I think it’s cool. Keeping it low lift and sustainable.

The same thing with streaming. I’m not going to check my numbers every day. I’m going to put that new song up, do the right things, and let it find its people. As opportunities present themselves, I’ll make the right decision. Good things will present themselves, and when they do, I’ll make the right choice.

I think someone said to me once, a dude locally who interviewed me, "It seems like you’ve made the right decision every time you've faced a crucial choice." I said to him, "Well, I think it’s about how you view your decisions. It could have been another path, and maybe that path would have been more successful, but we won’t know. Viewing things positively and just leaning into yourself is the move."

Michael: Good stuff. Yes, I mean, it seems like what you're saying is that the most important thing you'd recommend is that people are true to themselves. They don’t try to pretend to be someone they're not or do something that seems to be working for someone else. Instead, they just show up, be themselves, and keep putting things out consistently. You know it may or may not resonate with people, especially early on, but yeah—releasing a song every six to eight weeks, showing up, being yourself. That’s really the most important part of building it over time.

Terry: Hundred percent. And being patient. I know you hear that a lot from artists who have broken through, about how long it’s taken them to break. In the short time I've been running this label, I’ve seen things take a long time to catch on. It’s just how it works. We have several artists on this label that I’ve seen finally catch some positive wind, and then you watch people dig through the whole back catalog. It’s really cool because you’re like, “Cool, I wasn’t crazy. This shit is cool. It just took a while to find the right people who are into it.” So, yeah, patience is key. But consistency, knowing who you are, and making art that you like to make—that makes you feel good—that’s the key. Start there.

Michael: Absolutely. I mean, that’s the only way to start if you want to build the foundation that actually lasts. You don’t want to have success being someone you’re not and then have to keep up an act to attract people who aren’t really there for you.

Terry: Yeah, that’s a thing.

Michael: The analogy that came up as you're sharing, just like, you know, keep being yourself, keep showing up. And eventually, like, when you get a spark, people can kind of go through the back catalog. Maybe think of it sort of like building a fire where each song you put out is like a stick or a log that you put on the fire. At the beginning, like maybe you don't have a massive audience yet. It's just kind of like putting, you start, you're just putting the foundation on the fire and you're just putting log after log, and you're getting the kindling and you're putting it on there and you keep showing up. And then eventually, you know, you get that spark, you get that little fire. And if you set up the foundation properly, then that is where it can kind of set in and then it can start to catch and start to pick up momentum. But it wouldn't happen if you didn't do that initial foundation work of actually, you know, building the fire.

Terry: Yeah, 100 percent, man. It's slow and steady. I mean, yeah, that's... it's not sexy. I mean, my advice about like being slow and just like, you know, don't quit your day job—let it, you know—like, let it, which is a hard thing to tell people. Like, yeah, yeah, you're signed, but don't quit your job. Like, please don't quit your job. Like, wait until you have enough data to support you quitting your job. Because, you know, we might sign a band and give them a 10 or 20K advance and might be planning on spending a hundred thousand dollars. But really, what does that mean? That means you're 20 grand in debt. And that means your project is a hundred grand away from making any profit to make up that 20 grand. That's all that means. 20 grand ain't going to get you very far as far as the lifetime of sustainability goes or anything like that. And so it's like, that's why I'm constantly like, yo, you've got a thing you, you know, especially with artists that are bringing us records where we're not producing them, when they're just bringing us a finished record, like, hey, you've made something dope, you gotta keep doing this. Like, don't feel like now that you're on a label, you have to like, okay, now I can really go do this exact same thing again, like three times. Like, build a thing, build a brand, get these songs out. And you know, if on the third or fourth record, you want to get absolutely wild and crazy, you know, maybe you're onto a major label by then, or maybe you're under a bigger label with more money. But, yeah, my thing is always slow and steady.

Michael: I like it.

Terry: Which is, I mean, leads us to physical retail too. That is how we are introducing most of our artists to the marketplace through physical retail. I mean, like indie retail is a vital part of the education of the public as far as like, here's this new person.

Michael: Yeah. I would love to hear you talk a little bit about that. I think that's kind of a unique perspective that you have. And again, both having the record shop and having the record label. And so maybe you could share a little bit about the role of physical and, and just like productization in general, in a world with like streaming.

Terry: Yeah. I mean, for us, we grew this label through record stores. You know, this label grew before Spotify was a thing. We had a foundational level of support because I had built relationships with record stores over the years. And that just means like, I've called them and I visited them and I shot the shit with them. And then that also means that when we have a new record, I mail them a copy of it. And I'm like, hey, I hope you like this. I think you'll like this. It's pretty dope. Here you go. Give it a spin. And that is still the number one piece of advice I can give anybody trying to get a shop to sell their record. It's like, give them a copy of it to play in the store. And if it's good and it sells when they play it, then that's it. That's the most marketing you could ever want out of an indie retailer is for them to play a record. And when they play it, people are like, "What is this?" That's the most powerful thing. It's beautiful organic discovery, and it happens every day in every record store across the country. But, I mean, that's how we have really introduced artists into the market. And then as we have grown and as digital has grown for us, you know, obviously that's become a huge source of it as well. 

The cool thing about physical is that it can't be bought or sold, you know? Like the ability to reach people through that, like you have to go through the store and the store has to believe in it. They really have to believe in it to push it on people. Because those people that they're pushing it on are their community, their customers that they see every day or every week, and they're only going to push stuff on them that they think is cool and that they, you know, enjoy. But it's amazing. It's so organic and so real. And, I would encourage anybody that has a physical retail or has a physical record, if you want a store to get on board with you: A, give them a copy to play, B, make sure there is a hype sticker on your jacket that says what the hell it is. Because guess what? No one knows based on your album art. So have a hype sticker that makes it very plain, like this is... you know. And then, three, have distro because as a shop, we can't be calling Johnny in the WAM bots in Wichita, Kansas, being like, "Hey, bro, we sold you three records. Can we buy two more and mail them to us? And we'll PayPal you." Like, that's not a sustainable way to stock a store, which is why distributors exist. So that every Sunday, when we go through our entire, we can go through, hey, here's all the stuff we sold from Red Eye. Cool, we're out of this. We're out of this. We're out of this. All right, bring in 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 and make this big fat order with a distributor. Doesn't cost that much per unit to ship it, you know, because they're all shipping together. So, like, that's the third piece that gets lost sometimes. Because I have a lot of folks that'll hit me up like, "Well, let me know if you want to get some copies from me." And it's like, uh, like, that's not a good system. It's just not a system at all. It's like, it requires me, it's very manual. It requires me to email or call you. And the more of that we're doing, the harder it is to stock the store. So those are my three big things. If you're trying to get a presence in a physical retailer, it's: Have a distro that this shop is immediately going to be like, "Oh, yeah, cool. I order from them every week." Hype sticker and give them a copy.

Michael: Awesome. Cool. Well, Terry, man, it's been great having a conversation with you, and I appreciate the... yeah, like you mentioned, I know that it's not always the most sexy thing to say: "Hey, you know what? Like, you actually have to put in work and time, be patient, and it's not necessarily a next-day kind of thing."

But also, I think that this type of knowledge is extremely useful and really important for people to hear, so they’re not so hard on themselves if they release their first song and they don’t instantly have a hit. It is important to add that consistency. So thank you for taking the time to be here today and share a little bit about your experience.

And for anyone listening or watching this right now who is interested in learning more about the record label and the record store, could you share a little bit about, in your opinion, like... I know you receive a lot of requests and music from folks, and you spend a lot of time listening to it, but from your experience, who’s your ideal candidate for an artist who would just be the perfect fit to reach out, and what’s the best place for them to get in touch?

Terry: Best place to get in touch... we’re very, very active on Instagram at Colemine Records. C-O-L-E, Colemine Records. You can also visit our website: ColemineRecords.com. You can email us at info@ColemineRecords.com. I’m usually the one answering that.

As far as the ideal artist, the ideal artist is someone who makes very soulful music that I like a lot, which probably means it’s going to have some dirty drums. It’s probably going to sound like it was kind of lo-fi, or mid-fi, somewhere in there.

And somebody who’s creative but also really easy to work with and grounded. I’d say most of our artists, for the most part, fall into those categories, like easy to work with and very team-focused.

Michael: Well, like always, we’ll have all the links in the show notes for easy access. And if you’re listening or watching this right now and that resonates with you, then I would definitely encourage you to reach out.

Terry, thanks again for being on the podcast today.

Terry: Yeah, I appreciate it. Thanks so much, Michael.

Michael: YEAAAH!