Michael Walker: All right. Excited to be here today with my new friend, Toni Malyn. Toni is the head of marketing at EmuBands. He leads the marketing strategies for their digital music distribution service that helps artists, labels, and managers retain control of their music and 100 percent of the royalties.

They focus on providing cost-effective distribution solutions and supercharged release features for independent music creators. And I'm really excited to connect with him today, a little bit about the landscape around being an independent artist, what are some strategies for effectively distributing your music and maximizing the royalties, especially when it's easier than ever to create high-quality music at home studios.

How do you actually distribute it effectively and do it in a way that you have real ownership?

So, Toni, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

Toni Malyn: Thanks so much for having me, Michael. Pleased to be here. Yeah.

Michael: Absolutely. So, to kick things off, for anyone who, this is their first time meeting you or connecting with you, could you share a little bit about yourself and also about EmuBands and what was sort of like the main problem that you guys set out to serve?

Toni: Sure. So, yeah, I'll speak a little bit about EmuBands first and then I can talk about how I came to be involved in it, right? But like, EmuBands today, so formed in 2005, is based in Glasgow in Scotland, which is where I'm from. But we service the entire world. So we've got staff in Germany, Spain, I'm out in New York.

We've got one single member of staff in Mexico. So, yeah, we are very much a global business. It was started in 2005 by my boss, Ali Gray. So he's like the co-founder of the company. He was managing artists himself, worked for an independent distributor called Rights Router in the UK. But we're going way back here, like, sort of dot-com boom type era.

So, very early days for digital distribution. At the time, even if you were an independent artist, you still had to get, use a company like RightsRT, you had to get a label to do the licensing for you. You couldn't just license directly with the distributor. And I think my boss, when he was managing artists, he found it frustrating that although he worked for an independent distributor, he actually couldn't get those artists through that company because he needed a third party to license it, right?

So he came up with that idea of being that company that can do the licensing, you know, like a super simple one-pager, like you retain all your rights, you keep all your royalties, and we will do all the work for you, on like a simple flat fee basis. So that's kind of the ethos that started EmuBands.

And that's, you know, almost like 20 years later, like that's still what drives the company. So that's a flat fee per release, right? There's no subscriptions to keep your music live or anything like that. You retain 100 percent of the rights and you keep 100 percent of the royalties. How I became involved in EmuBands, like, I mean, let's start from how I even got into music, right? Like I, most people, I started out as a musician. So I grew up playing a lot of jazz. I spoke to my parents, said I wanted to play guitar. And I think they were like, well, if we're going to send you for lessons, you're going to like, you have to like go and learn like real music, right? Or whatever.

So I learned jazz music. And I think when you're like a kid, I love jazz music now, but when I was a kid, I don't think I super loved that. I wanted to play the music that my dad was listening to. So, like everything from like the Sex Pistols, the Who, Van Morrison, like not jazz at all. So, like, when I was 16, 17, I was making music with buddies at high school, like not very good music, but like, I wanted to work out ways to release it.

So around 2009, I'm looking at ways to get our stuff onto, I guess, iTunes at the time, right? Like, streaming wasn't really, like, a huge thing then. And I was amazed to find that there was this company in my home city that did that thing, right? I was sort of like, expecting it to be someone in North America or someone in London or whatever. So I was happy that it was a Glasgow company that I was using, so that company was EmuBands. I started out as a customer. I loved the service and how easy it was to get my music released. Once I left high school, I had this idea that I wanted to become a high school music teacher, right? So I applied for like the Conservatoire in Scotland and as a kind of backup, I applied for music business school.

And when it came down to it, I sort of asked myself, do I really want to sit in high school classrooms for the rest of my life? And the answer was like, no way, right? Like I was done with school. So I studied commercial music at university and picked up some work as a session musician. Which allowed me to, I traveled all over Europe playing mostly in like Irish folk bands and things like that and worked as a tour manager a little bit.

And then as part of my university course, I had to seek out a work placement or internship, but it was very much like they wanted you to go and do some, you know, work. office-based music work, so I couldn't really do live stuff. And I sent EmuBands a DM on Twitter in 2011, and the rest is history. Like, it was a small company at the time, I mean, like two people in the office when I turned up, and one of them was the co-founder Ali, he's still our MD today.

And like, he's really been an incredible mentor to me through the years. My internship was only supposed to last for a couple of weeks. And then I ended up taking on some part-time paid work with them when I was at uni and then went full-time after I got my degree. By that point, it was like a handful of other people working at the company, but really only four or five people.

So I started out in artist relations and then gradually I moved into marketing. And the company's really allowed me to find my feet and follow passions that I have. So, like I blend the creative and business skills and lead those marketing strategies at EmuBands. And so my role today, like I now oversee all the partnerships, I build the internal systems for pitching music to DSPs and craft campaigns with artists that help them connect with audiences globally.

And I get like extreme satisfaction working with the artists and labels at our company. And, you know, even better, I get to sort of, like, help bring people, more people into the sort of EmuBands family and, you know, really just speak to them on a daily basis and make sure that we're delivering the best distribution service for them.

But yeah, I think that just about covers how I ended up there and what EmuBands does. Basically, we have a ton of really experienced people who work at the company. Everything's handled in-house, so we're fully independent. We're kind of not really relying on third parties to do the delivery work.

I don't know if, like, your listeners really know the really boring stuff about distributors, but, like, a lot of distributors will need to work with a third party. I mean, they're great companies, but like companies like Fuga or any of these places, they provide the actual delivery part for the distributors, but we don't really require that.

We have all that in-house. We do all the delivery, we do all the artist relations, the marketing work, and a lot of our deals are direct with the DSPs as well. So we're kind of like able to be ensuring that we're providing the most amount of money possible for our artists and our labels and we can work quicker and we're more nimble than a lot of other distributors in the space.

Michael: Awesome. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like, it's a really nice holistic approach to the distribution game. Yeah, as someone who, you've worked with a lot of artists and record labels now, with the company, and you're head of marketing. So you've probably witnessed a lot of evolution and kind of change in terms of the general landscape of the music industry, how it's marketed, how it's distributed over time.

Curious, do you see as sort of the biggest challenges of the times right now that artists are struggling with, and then we can have a conversation about some strategies and creative ways that you've seen them overcome them.

Toni: Sure, right? I mean, it feels like today, it's just like the most saturated digital market that's ever existed, right? So I think that's probably the biggest challenge specifically from like our end of it. It's just like a new artist with no fan base, you know, putting their stuff up on the DSPs is like a total drop in the ocean, right?

It's just so difficult to gain any visibility outside your friends and family or whatever, right? So, like, so much music's being released daily, capturing and maintaining that audience attention is going to be just incredibly difficult. So unless you've got that backing of a major label or extensive marketing resources, it's really, you're fighting an uphill battle, right?

The shift towards streaming's been transformative, but it also means artists have to be more strategic about how they release music and engage with fans. And I'm a big data guy, so leveraging data, audience's listening behaviors and how they're interacting with them, it can be a really significant tool that you can use to your advantage.

Another really big issue though, I think, is this shrinking middle class of musicians. Many artists are under immense pressure to create infinite levels of content for social media and it can detract from that time and energy needed to actually do, you know, what they're good at, like creating that music, making great art.

At the same time, touring has become more expensive and less lucrative at that kind of lower end, so it creates these additional barriers for artists trying to sustain a career. And these combined factors make it harder for musicians to build long-term stability, especially those who aren't operating at the top tier of the industry.

Michael: Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So it sounds like what you're saying is that although it's a blessing to have the easy ability to create music and release it on the internet, there's so much music now, it's become so saturated that actually cutting through the noise and getting visibility has become challenging, and that's kind of also led to this shrinking middle class where having that breakthrough, there's a thick threshold to cut through. And that makes it difficult to compete, especially when you're just starting out and you don't already have an audience. Yeah, absolutely. And so I'd be curious to hear from your experience, what are some of the biggest opportunities that musicians have right now to be able to cut through that veil? Especially if they're just starting out and they don't have an existing audience or fan base, how do they get that initial spark?

Toni: Sure. So I think, firstly, obviously, I do think that building that core team around you of people to support you can be really important. And I think there's a lot of people who think maybe it can be too early to get a manager involved or whatever. Some people sometimes think, "Let's wait a bit." I completely understand that school of thought. I think that if you're looking to release music on your own, look for a distributor who's going to be there holding your hand if you need it, right? Like someone that you can pick up the phone to is super important. I think there's a lot of really low-cost solutions to distributing your music, which is great, of course, but a lot of these low-cost services rely on a lot of automation, and they're not really designed for you to communicate with a human being through that process, right? So, one thing that we always really try and pride ourselves on is that we have real humans speaking to people. You can call us if you need to, but we also have a live chat system on our dashboard, and you also develop relationships. So everyone has direct contact with our artist relations team to give them advice on anything they need, any questions they have. But in terms of the wider industry perspective—not just the distribution side of it—I think artists need to adopt a more strategic approach that integrates their creativity with that pursuit of a sustainable career. Diversifying income streams is crucial. Musicians who aren't household names can't really rely solely on streaming or touring. Exploring opportunities in merch, sync licensing, fan subscriptions, and these kinds of unique partnerships can create a bit more stability for them. Additionally, artists should really focus on building deeper connections with their audience, no matter what size that audience is, right? It's that kind of thing: would you rather have a thousand passive listeners or a hundred listeners who are prepared to spend $25 on your vinyl? No-brainer, right? The smaller audience is way better in that regard. So just focusing on those deeper connections with the audience, rather than chasing fleeting virality. Direct-to-fan platforms—or, it's old-fashioned, but the mailing list—is still so important. It's so cheap, but it's just that you can own that method of speaking to your audience, right? You don't really own the data that's on social media. You're not really fully in control of being able to target who you want to target, that kind of thing. I mean, there are some great tools out there that are sort of, other than just, you know, your traditional email, but companies like Open Stage are great at allowing artists to manage that connection between them and their fans at every level of their career. So, yeah, fostering more meaningful relationships can lead to that consistent support over time. On the content side, streamlining and repurposing content—I know I mentioned earlier that you're having to constantly create content—but I think you can get inventive with the five bits of content you've got and make it last over time, right? You don't need to constantly create new material and adapt it for different platforms. That's something I speak to my artists about a lot. For touring, I think smaller tours with a focus on high-value locations can help artists avoid the high cost of larger circuits, and you're still engaging fans at that level. Working with local promoters or organizations can also make touring more financially viable, and it's better for the wider ecosystem at the end of the day. Lastly, industry-wide advocacy is really, really important. So, more equitable streaming models, financial support for touring, government grants, or whatever's out there, and mentorship programs for emerging artists. I think we all collectively have to help rebuild that middle class in music, you know?

Michael: Good stuff, man. I mean, you definitely speak my language. We have a software platform that we've been developing for the past year internally for our coaching clients called Street Team. And really the idea of the software is exactly what you're talking about—helping fans directly connect with artists. It's sort of like if Patreon, Discord, and Facebook groups had a baby, it would be this platform. And 100% about ownership, you know, between the data—the artists and their fans—the fact that you don't know who your people really are on Spotify or even on Facebook. You don't own the audience; like Mark Zuckerberg owns your audience. And so, there's built-in email sending, there's built-in chat communication, subscriptions. And so, depending on when people are listening to this, we're doing a big launch for the team in January next year. I'm really excited to share that with more people. Right now, it's been just for our clients working with us internally, but it's 100% to help with the issues that you just brought up because we've experienced those as well.

Toni: Dude, that sounds awesome. Yeah. And anything like that is always music to my ears too. So, yeah, sounds great.

Michael: Awesome. Yeah, we should stick around after the conversation and do a quick demo of the platform. But cool. So, as it relates to monetization, right now is kind of an interesting time where streaming is more accessible than ever. People can potentially monetize their streaming, but it seems like that's also a big challenge. You know, people touring, playing live shows can be profitable but also really expensive to get started with. Maybe, could we go a little bit deeper on the fan subscription idea? Because that's part of the core of the Street Team platform—having the fan subscription. So I'm curious to hear your perspective on how does an artist build the types of relationships that we're talking about, that kind of go beyond just a casual listener, but actually a real relationship and someone that supports the artist financially on one of those membership tiers?

Toni: Yeah, totally. Great question. I think just for anyone who's maybe listening that isn't familiar with those types of services or solutions, fan subscription models are like your own little distribution network where you've got your private fan club, right? You're speaking to your fans directly. Totally. I mean, I've seen people do this on Patreon, but other services as well. It can be great because at the end of the day, it's providing you with direct revenue, right? Fans are paying a recurring fee, maybe a couple of bucks a month or something like that, to support you and what you're doing, and in exchange, they're getting exclusive content or perks. It might also allow you to test out music that you don't really want to release to absolutely everyone just yet as well, right? So, it can be that you're rewarding them with exclusive content that only they're getting, but also, you could think of it as a focus group of people who really know and understand your music. They're the best people to test this stuff out on. So, just building that community of people with regular, personalized content as well is really good to strengthen that relationship with them. And from an artist's perspective, I guess it also gives that predictability of a fixed income, right? Like, you know what's going to come in every other month or whatever. So it's a win-win in that regard. I guess you can also do behind-the-scenes footage, demo recordings, songwriting processes. It depends on the size of your fanbase, but live streaming Q&A sessions and things like that can really work. It can turn people into super fans, which, again, gets back to that idea of having 100 super fans being more worthwhile than being added to a fleeting Spotify playlist where you may get 20,000 streams from 20,000 people, but they're not going to come to your shows or do anything other than provide you with maybe a decent amount of cash for one month from your distributor, and then a little bit of a vanity metric on the DSPs. But it's just a better way, I think, for artists at every level, but especially artists in the DIY space. It's a really cost-effective way to market their music, right?

Michael: A hundred percent. Yeah. So it sounds like what you're saying is that really at the core of it is building a deeper relationship with those fans and providing connection points, such as more personalization, more connection around live streaming where you're actually saying their name, having conversations with them back and forth, early access to new demos, or more vulnerability and authenticity, because it's not the super polished, produced things. Your true fans really appreciate that level of authenticity and being able to connect with you in a deeper way.

It reminded me of a time when one of our clients was a supporter of Jacob Collier when Jacob was just getting started. Jacob has won several Grammy awards now, and he's amazing. But one thing always stuck with me that he did. So the client’s name was Bob, and he was a supporter of Jacob Collier. Jacob recorded a little music clip for him that was basically just him singing harmony stacks, like “Bob, Bob, Bob, Bob, Bob,” you know, something like that.

Bob shared that with me, and he was so excited and proud of that little music clip. It was a great example of that little piece of personalization, appreciation, and recognition that Jacob gave him. Now, that's something Bob can share, and Jacob, you know, he probably doesn’t have the time or energy to do that kind of thing for his audience now, but it was something really special he created as a gift for Bob—a token of his appreciation.

Those kinds of things are so meaningful and powerful to that early adopter, that early fan who is the one-in-a-hundred kind of true fan.

Toni: Yeah, totally, of course. I think, yeah, Jacob—I don’t work with him, but I kind of admire that he is actually a master of fan engagement, right? Like, I might mess this up a little bit, but I think he has these viral Instagram harmonization videos where fans submit melodies or ideas, and he turns them into fully fleshed-out compositions. I think that’s super dynamic. Yeah, it's really cool.

Michael: Yeah, that’s really smart, just in general. The idea of interaction and showcasing your fans, giving them recognition, putting them in the spotlight, doing things musically for them. And just in general, interaction—I know when I was touring full-time with my band, one of the best things we ever did for our career and community, and the relationships we were building, was after the shows. Coming out and meeting every single person, taking pictures with them, signing autographs, and talking with them. That really is part of the magic that makes the community grow and the interaction.

The more interaction you can do, the better it’s going to be, as long as, I guess, it depends on the interaction. If you’re slapping your fans in the face, maybe not the best interaction, but sharing appreciation and having conversations seems like almost always the right thing.

Toni: For sure. Absolutely.

Michael: Awesome. I’m curious if you’ve seen any really unique things that artists have done for fans in terms of the high end, like a VIP fan experience. We’ve seen a lot of artists recently doing clever, creative, high-ticket types of experiences for their fans. We had an artist who did a retreat offer. She sent out a 60,000 email and sold out spots in like a day and a half. We were crunching the numbers of what she would have needed to generate 60,000 with a CD, and she would have needed around 300,000 people on her email list, whereas she had about 24,000 and made 60,000.

I’m curious if you’ve seen anything in that world around high-ticket offers or high VIP fan experiences that might be creative.

Toni: Actually, I’m kind of drawing a blank at that end. I might have to come back to it. But, yeah, I think what you just said shows that it works with every level of artists out there. Especially if you have a globalized fan base, you might have super-rich fans who are going to spend, you know, 15,000 or 20,000 on a completely new composition or something dedicated to them.

I sort of think it’s overdone a little bit to say your band is a brand, but it is true. Brands have stuff that sells for $10, and they have stuff that sells for $10,000. So why shouldn’t artists, you know, if they have the material that they can craft, find buyers for that? But you can’t get to that level without fostering those super fans. You need people to be so invested in your work, your story, and your artistry before they’ll part with those big figures.

Michael: Absolutely. Yeah. I think the relationship is extremely important for making a higher ticket offer like that. For my band, one of the first things that really helped us get funding, because we didn’t have any money when we started out, we were starving artists, was doing private parties and private events, like quinceañeras, house concerts, and birthday parties. We did those for thousands of dollars, and they were easily one of the most lucrative things we did. We’ve had clients now who’ve done private events for 15,000 dollars.

It seems like a limiting belief for a lot of artists, thinking, “Oh, I’m not worth that,” or “Who am I to charge $5,000, $10,000? I only have a thousand followers on Instagram. If that, I only have 200 followers.” But it’s interesting. We’ve seen a lot of people who are just getting started, and it doesn’t matter if they don’t have millions of fans. When they have an offer with the right fan who really appreciates it, they can still provide that type of value.

Toni: Yeah, for sure. And I think, like you said, even when you're at the lower end of that—making maybe 2,000 on a show at a private party—if you were working with an agent, a promoter, and a venue, in a traditional downtown venue, how many tickets would you have to sell to make 2,000? It’s probably a lot more than the people at the private party.

There are so many mouths to feed when you involve the industry, you know? I'm kind of shooting myself in the foot here because I'm basically saying don't work with people in the industry. But, yeah, I think 3,000 dollars in an independent artist’s pocket—that’s a lot to work with. And at that level, how long is it going to take for you to make that on streams or playing in basement venues? It’s going to take a long time. So those opportunities are out there to grab. Let's get back to what I was saying about diversifying your income streams. Try everything out, see what works.

Michael: Absolutely. Yeah, huge opportunity, just like direct-to-fan. Now we sort of have the ability to do those types of offers, but actually building the community or the relationship seems like one of the more challenging parts of it.

I’m curious, in terms of traffic generation, you're someone with a lot of experience with marketing and running campaigns. Do you have any creative ideas for artists who are just starting out and want to generate traffic, and they’re like, “Yeah, how do I even find the people in the first place and build that initial introduction?”

Toni: Yeah. So like, maybe you can help me when I'm speaking about this, because I feel like you may be more eloquent at explaining what it is, but like fan funnels on social media, right? People you're grabbing on TikTok—especially TikTok, because you can become exposed to so many people on that platform. It's not random, but it’s not by mistake. The algorithms recommend it to people.

You work with artists who are really good at moving those fans from TikTok onto DSPs that monetize the streams, right? TikTok’s great, but you’re not really going to make that much money from it. You want to turn those people into fans who buy or stream your music.

That can be as simple as asking people to stream your music. But you can come up with sophisticated acquisition strategies, working with marketing teams on that. Bringing people in from all channels and turning them into fans—whether it’s through services that monetize poorly like YouTube and TikTok, or through platforms like Patreon or traditional DSPs—you want to sit down with some pros in that space to help you work that out.

Michael: Absolutely. Yeah, the concept of building a fan funnel and meeting people where they're at. It sounds like what you're saying is that there are these social media platforms with billions of people and fans. So, if you start by releasing content that resonates with people there, you don’t just leave it there. You actually have a process to take them off the platform and onto a platform you own, like an email list or fan funnel. Then, from there, you can build a deeper relationship, and you own that data. You own the email, as opposed to just being on Facebook where Mark Zuckerberg owns your audience.

Toni: Yeah, 100%. And like you said, it can be as simple as just an email address. Once you’ve got that email, you can keep talking to them. You can keep bugging them, like, "Come over to Spotify. Come over to my Patreon," or whatever. Once you’ve got the email, in my opinion, you've got them.

Michael: A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, in my world, I see a lot of people talking about email because it’s so obvious that email is a more powerful tool to monetize your music, build that community, and stay connected with your fans. But it still seems underappreciated in a lot of cases by artists who either don’t realize how important it is or just don’t know how to use it properly. They might have something on their website but don’t have a system for it. So, there’s definitely a huge opportunity to focus on it.

Toni: Yeah, 100%. I think it's not that email isn’t sexy—it's just never been sexy. But, you know, sometimes the best things aren’t. I don't know if younger artists might think it's old-fashioned, or what the hesitance toward email is. I mean, I know it's not a one-size-fits-all solution for everyone, but it’s one of many tools that is still super impactful and low-cost.

Michael: Yeah, that's a good question. I think the hesitation depends on the artist. In some cases, it's just that they’re unaware of the opportunity. They think email is old-fashioned or they may feel it’s not used as much as social media, which isn’t true. If you look at marketing stats, email has a return on investment of 37X, while social media is between 1 and 5. So maybe it’s just about understanding the opportunity or getting stuck because they don’t know how to use it correctly. They might have tried signing up for something like MailChimp or another platform that feels overwhelming or too technical. They might even have set up an email list but not have automations or any system with it. They don’t know where to start. But I absolutely recommend artists invest time in learning how to use email effectively. That’s why we focus on it so much with StreetTeam, through education, and even on the podcast.

Toni: Yeah, super important. 100% in the email camp.

Michael: Awesome.

Toni: I’m old. That’s why.

Michael: Well, it’s funny, I looked at some demographics for email. It’s one of the only platforms that spans all age ranges. Almost everyone has an email that they actually use. Even younger people—there’s a lot of social media platforms that tend to skew younger, like TikTok. Facebook tends to be for older people, but email spans across the board. Everyone has it and uses it as a private source of connection. It’s a great vehicle for business growth.

Toni: Absolutely.

Michael: Well, Tony, it’s been great connecting with you today. I appreciate you taking the time to come on and share a little bit about your journey and geek out a little about marketing opportunities for indie artists. I think it's really important to have conversations like this to raise awareness about these things. Speaking of spreading awareness, could you share a little more about EmuBands and the platform you've built? Who would be the best candidate for using the platform and getting the most value from it? And if people are interested, where can they go to learn more?

Toni: Sure. Thanks, Michael. We provide a multi-faceted solution. At our core, we offer digital distribution. If you want to get your music online quickly, cheaply, and retain all your rights and royalties, you can use us. We’ll do everything we say we’ll do, and it’s super cheap. It’s a one-time fee per release, so you’re not tied into paying us year after year to keep your music online. For US listeners, it’s $12.50 per release, and for the UK, it’s £10. That’s basically the cost.

If you want something more, we offer EmuBands Pro. This is a solution between DIY and fully-fledged label services. We don’t do revenue shares. We just want to provide a solution for artists and labels who need a little extra support. EmuBands Pro includes a dedicated account manager—think of it as a release manager at a record label—who will help you with anything related to your account or distribution process. They can also help with marketing strategy.

They’re available by direct email, and they’ll get back to you within one business day. If you need a face-to-face video call, you can book it with no extra cost. We also have a live chat system on the dashboard, where you can speak directly to the Artist Relations team—we don’t outsource support.

We can help with playlist pitches, too. We’re in weekly conversations with editors at Apple, Deezer, Spotify, Tidal, etc., to pitch an artist’s music. We’ve been successful at this—while there are no guarantees, we regularly help people land playlists for the first time.

We can also help with fan data collection through pre-save campaigns and advise on how to incentivize them, like offering something in return for an email address or pre-saving your release.

As for who’s best suited for EmuBands, we work with everyone from DIY artists who are just starting out to indie artists at the top of their game. We also work with heritage artists and household names who are getting their rights back from major labels. We help them with catalog marketing.

One of our success stories is an indie band in the UK called The Ratings. They started with EmuBands Pro in January this year and got a number one record in the UK. They did it all on their own, which is incredible. It’s these success stories that drive my work.

Michael: That’s incredible. Wow. Awesome. Well, as always, we’ll put the link in the show notes for easy access. Tony, it was great having you on the podcast. I appreciate you taking the time.

Toni: Thanks so much for having me, Michael.