Michael Walker: YEAAAH! 

Omer Matz: Here we go. 

Michael: All right, excited to be here today with my new friend, Omer Matz. Omer leads a company called IndieFlow, an all-in-one music management platform that supports independent musicians. They recently launched an AI-powered artist manager app called Roadie.

He has a background in music production and has done TV work on The Voice. He’s also founded two music-related businesses and has a passion for both music and entrepreneurship. Bringing those things together creates some magic. Over the past decade, he’s raised millions for IndieFlow and applied his growth skills across various startups in the tech and music sectors.

He’s someone with a lot of experience at the intersection of tech and music, and I’m looking forward to catching up with him on the podcast today to share a bit of his wisdom and experience as it relates to team building, mindset, and finding that sweet spot between being a musician, being a creative, and also operating as a business and entrepreneur.

So, Omer, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today.

Omer: Yeah, thank you for inviting me. I have to say that I’ve been following Modern Musician for years now, and you guys are definitely an inspiration to me. It’s really a big milestone personally, and I’ve learned a lot through Modern Musician. I’m really excited to be here.

Michael: Thanks, man. That means a lot. Yeah, I mean, definitely, music meets tech meets entrepreneurship is something we share a passion for. I think there’s a big need right now in the industry to empower artists with this type of information, so I appreciate what you're doing.

For anyone connecting with you for the first time, could you just share a quick introduction to yourself and how you started IndieFlow?

Omer: Sure. Yeah. So, I guess my journey starts almost 20 years ago as a student studying music. I was majoring in film scoring and studied for three years. I got to a certain point where I couldn't really find myself in that space, so I decided to explore a bit more.

I knew I wanted to be in music, but I didn’t really know what specifically. I started trying a few other things. I worked in TV production on The Voice, and I also started my first business, which connected music hobbyists with music mentors to play in a band and perform. That became a very large community.

At a certain point, I sold my part in the business and went into startups, which was my second passion. I felt it was a place where innovation connects with impact, and it allowed me to stay in the creative side of things. But then I felt like I still had an unsolved debt with music.

So, I went back to writing and released my first album about five or six years ago. That's when I really understood the day-to-day struggles of independent musicians and how difficult it is. There’s a lot of innovation.

On the other hand, it's so complicated—combining that right and left brain capability. That's when I wanted to connect the need that a lot of independent musicians share with practical technology, and that's when IndieFlow came to life.

That was in 2020, and then COVID hit. It was easier to shift from music and live performance into something else, into trying new things. So, I really doubled down on IndieFlow, creating an all-in-one music management platform for independent musicians, which I’ve been doing for the last five years. We raised money, built a team, and I've gone through the life cycles of a startup.

That’s kind of what I was thinking about talking about today—the similarities between the musician mindset and the entrepreneur mindset. There are a lot of similarities. I’ve spoken to thousands of musicians over the past few years, and I think there are many frameworks the two personas share.

To wrap this up, I’ll mention the last thing we’ve been focusing on this past year, which I think is the coolest thing we’ve done so far and the most precise in terms of value for independent artists: Roadie, the AI artist manager in your pocket. It’s riding the wave of AI that we've seen over the past year, becoming a day-to-day manager in your pocket. It analyzes your social and streaming platforms' success and shows you what to do next.

It also maps out similar artists to you, which posts work for them, what worked for them in general, and recommends next moves like a game plan.

I’ll throw in a little perk for anyone listening: the first 30 people who want to download the app will get it for free. Just type in "Roadie MM" (Roadie, Modern Musician) as a promotional coupon code. For anyone who misses out on the first 30 downloads, you'll still get 25% off.

I’m really excited to contribute back to Modern Musician.

Michael: Awesome. I appreciate you doing that. And, as always, we'll put the links in the show notes for easy access. So, yeah, it sounds like for the app you built, the first 30 folks who are listening to this right now get it completely for free for a full year. And everyone else gets a discount too if they miss out.

So, that's pretty cool.

Okay, so you mentioned that Roadie is sort of like the AI assistant that can look at similar artists, similar posts they’re making, and then recommend types of posts that might work well for you as well. That's really cool.

You also mentioned the similarities—the Venn diagram—between being a startup entrepreneur in tech and starting a music business or beginning as an artist. I'm curious to hear your perspective, having had a foot in both worlds. Are there similar challenges that you see artists struggling with, or do you see startups struggling at the very beginning of their careers?

Omer: Yeah, great question. So I think, at the very beginning of a career, it's that search between, one, your identity, two, your fan base, and three, your product—what you're offering to that fan base. Especially in the initial days, you're pretty clueless. You're in constant search, in discovery mode, figuring out your DNA. It's usually easier than we make it out to be because it feels very confusing. The big question of "Who am I?" usually gets answered through what feels right and authentic to you and by identifying your strengths.

We have musicians who are more performers, so their thing is live music and venues, interacting with the crowd, and uploading footage from shows to their social media. We have other artists who are more lo-fi producers, introverts, who go the playlist route, connecting with other lo-fi producers to create shared playlists. This might not build the kind of fan base that will come to every concert, but they’re not performing anyway.

There are many examples. You just have to find that natural area where you fit in and where your DNA comes through in the most authentic way. I think that’s number one: identity.

The second thing is more about the fans. You need to find that niche. And I think with startups—and you probably know this better than me—the ideal customer profile (ICP) is crucial at the beginning. It’s so important for your understanding of how to build from there. That would be the first layer. If they fall in love with your music, they will spread the word for you. If they fall in love with your business, they will tell their friends.

That’s the initial phase where you are as a business and as an artist, where you want to break through. It’s cool inviting your friends to your concerts, and your parents will love your music, but you want to break through that. You want to be independent and make an impact.

And that’s the second area: finding your niche. I’m not the first one to say this, and I won’t be the last, but it’s super important.

The third thing is the product: what are you bringing to the table? What value?

I think that triangle—identity, superfans or niche, and the product you’re bringing to the table—shifts and takes shape throughout the beginning. It can take years for both artists and businesses to get that foundation stable enough. I think that’s the starting point for both, which is super important, but just the first phase of the long road ahead.

Michael: It's those three pillars, right? It's the identity, the audience, and the product, or the monetization of it.

Omer: I was just remembering this guy that I met at a conference. He was doing these sick tricks with a yo-yo. It was at a conference in New York, and he was yo-yoing all around the conference. Everyone remembers him. That's his talent—he knows how to yo-yo. But apparently, he's also a sick rapper. Like, he's really, really good at being a musician. And this is kind of like his business card in a way. Everyone remembers that, and it's also natural for him.

It doesn't always come naturally to musicians to brand yourself and just pull out your business card. Some artists don’t feel that comfortable doing that, but it's a way to attract attention and build yourself in a way that people remember. It’s kind of like an extension of your talent. Another artist might be an amazing cook, and maybe that's what their social media is about. We can talk on and on about that topic alone, but I just have this memory of the guy who plays with the yo-yo at the conference, and everyone remembers him. It can be something so small.

Michael: So, it sounds like that initial phase of identity creation, figuring out what sets you apart, brands you, or provides an interesting angle or hook, is really helpful because that's going to help people remember you.

Take the yo-yo guy, for example. That was something people are going to remember about him because it was part of who he was. It was an extension of his creativity.

How do you recommend folks approach this? Because I'm sure you've probably heard a lot that this initial phase for artists can be really challenging—figuring out their identity and how to brand themselves without wanting to put themselves in a box. Like, they don't want to just be the yo-yo guy; they want to be everything.

Omer: Don't be the yo-yo guy too. If you don't know how to work with a yo-yo, I mean, that's what it's about.

Michael: Right. That makes a lot of sense. Don't try to be something you're not. But then also, do you recommend that artists find that identity for themselves? And how do you recommend they think about finding their niche and identifying themselves if they feel a little resistant to the idea of putting themselves in a box, but still want the freedom to express different facets of themselves?

Omer: Wow. I think it starts with deep soul searching. A lot of artists try to fit it into a framework or canvas, but essentially, it's really from the inside. Sorry to sound cliché, but I’ll give an example of my brother.

My brother does hip hop. He loves movies and creates cinematic hip hop for trailers. That's his niche. He also has a podcast called Sync Gems, where he hosts composers for film and trailers. He made this small niche his whole world, and every few weeks, he invites someone else, and it becomes this networking machine as well.

Going back to your question, when looking at him as an example, it really starts from your basic interests and strengths. If that inspires you—like trailers—and my brother loves superhero movies, that’s what inspires him. And that’s the way you’ll inspire others externally.

Because that's the whole point, right? Fans won’t come if you don’t inspire them. It’s something you're passionate about. What artists are great at is giving inspiration, and that's mainly what they're about: taking an idea and communicating it in the form of art to an audience that will feel inspired.

So, if you don’t want to force a framework on yourself or, like you said, put yourself in a box, it’s really about deep digging and soul searching to find what truly inspires you. Take two or three things, and you can create a world out of that.

Michael: Super interesting. Yeah, there's something you said there that reminds me of this concept: when you're figuring out your identity and branding yourself, it's about you, but it's just as much, if not more, about the people on the other end—your fans—and the identity they're seeing in your music and how they resonate with it. Because ultimately, it's about how they receive the music, how they resonate, and how they experience it.

So, it seems like that platform you've built, recommending similar artists to you who are posting things that might resonate with you as well, seems like an interesting way to find that cross-section between things that are true to you and resonate with you, but also make sense in terms of the shared community. It's like a shared community identity, as opposed to it just being only about you.

Omer: Exactly. If you think about it, the main difference between artists and businesses is that in art, the competition is not the same as it is in the business world, right? Two artists can perform together, and it won't necessarily be at the expense of one another. A fan can like two artists and, you know, come to both of their shows.

I think that's what's beautiful in the music world: you can really leverage the strength of similar artists who have succeeded or are close to you in that space. You can learn from them, imitate them, see what's working for you, and see what's not working. It will never be exactly the same, and it doesn't really matter because, you know, if somebody loves your music and somebody loves Artist B's music, they won't say, "Oh yeah, I love Artist B, I'll stop listening to your music." You won't be afraid of a competitor stealing your clients, you know, as opposed to business.

So, I feel like there are a lot of ways artists can gain from similar artists, whether it's, you know, the basic stuff that everyone does, like seeing where similar artists performed in their city and contacting that venue, or seeing what works for that artist in terms of social media posts.

There are a lot of similarities, and because there is no formula for success, you can be a similar artist—quote unquote—but you're not really identical. Let's say you are identical and try the same things; there’s still so much of an element of chance when it comes to an artist’s success—there's so much luck involved. We’re trying to reduce that element of chance by comparing similar artists and giving AI the ability to generate similar posts, but that’s just a tool that can help you out. It doesn’t necessarily guarantee anything, and you need to remember that.

In that sense, I feel that it can really help. Treat it as something that can focus you. It doesn’t define your success, but it can help you really focus on finding your next moves.

Michael: Super interesting hearing you describe the comparison between businesses and competition versus artists and competition. I think you're totally right. Art is something that can exist alongside other art, and actually, like, a rising tide lifts all boats. Artists performing shows together—there's this cross-pollination that happens, and it's actually really, really healthy.

I've met a lot of artists who didn't stick around for long because their mindset was off, but they did feel this sort of competition or thought that if someone is a fan of them, it somehow diminishes their own success. It's the same thing with businesses as well. Even with direct competitors, in many cases, the more what you're creating is an art form, the more opportunity there is for collaboration, because it's not necessarily about being right or wrong, just different ways of viewing the same thing.

That's really how I look at a lot of the space. Even right now, with our podcast, there are folks who might be considered "quote-unquote" competitors to Modern Musician. But generally, how I see it is that everyone is a collaborator, and everyone has different perspectives and different helpful angles. If you're trying to master a topic, you don't just read one book on it and say, "Alright, I've got it," but instead, you want to read a bunch of different books from different perspectives. It's through the culmination of all those viewpoints that you really establish your own.

But I guess that's not always the case in every industry. Sometimes there's just a product, and it's like, "Okay, I have this specific thing, and there's one way to do it. What's the fastest, cheapest way for me to solve this problem?"

So, yeah, maybe we're in a little bit of a different world, both in terms of information technology and specifically with artists. For artists who are listening to this: your art is complementary to other artists as well. Coming together is almost always going to be a one plus one equals three situation.

Omer: Yeah, I have to say that I feel like in the music tech space, even though there is competition, it’s kind of adopted because most people in music tech are also former musicians or people who love music. It’s that culture. That’s why you feel it when you go to conferences and meet folks from the music industry. Even if they're competitors, it’s really informal. I feel like there’s more of a community element to it, rather than a fear of competition and losing clients.

I think it’s also a matter of maturity, which ties into what you were saying about the artists who left after a short period of time. You get burned out really quickly, especially if you want things to happen right now. That’s the experience for artists. They’re so creative, and it’s that left-brain, right-brain conflict when you're having trouble mapping out and understanding that this is a long-term journey. When you feel that everything has to happen now, it becomes overwhelming. You wake up in the morning, post on TikTok, and nothing happens. Then, two days later, you do the same thing, and nothing happens. But you also did a playlist campaign, and it spiked, but then it dropped because it was a playlist campaign. We all know how that goes after a playlister takes your track out of their playlist.

The ups and downs of being an artist really challenge you, and they create this feeling of being alone, facing these challenges on your own because you're the only one who’s really facing it. I think burnout is something that happens to a lot of artists, and it’s similar to entrepreneurs, but I'll set that aside for a second. In the case of artists, they're naturally more sensitive, and mental illness and depression are no strangers to creatives.

That’s a big issue. I feel there’s a phase in your music career where you just need to let go of all that stress and just be. Even if nothing happens, allow yourself a long period of time to feel comfortable with where you're at. Even if nothing changes, just feel comfortable creating music, doing your thing, posting, or performing live—whatever you're doing. Keep doing that to build mental resilience, which I think leads to maturity and eventually reduces burnout. I'm no psychologist or mental health expert, but it really is about not stressing yourself to the limit. Every person has a different way of getting out of that vicious loop, and they need to find it.

But I would really recommend anyone to try and find four or five months where you're only focusing on building resilience. Whatever you need to do: developing a hobby, talking to a friend or mentor—just putting in a decent window of time where you can build something for yourself internally. Don’t feel like you're not moving the needle in your music, that you're not gaining any new fans, and then stressing about how your Instagram post didn’t get as many likes as you wanted.

That's what I would encourage a lot of artists to do: just chill.

Michael: Yep.

Omer: I wish it was simple.

Michael: And so, it sounds like what you're saying is that it's important to give yourself grace, especially early on, when you're likely going to make posts and things that don't get a lot of response. You're kind of exploring who you are and your identity, so it’s important to give yourself space to just be. And, yeah, I've heard this before, just…

Omer: Take breaks, you know. 

Michael: Taking breaks is super important. I've heard this concept of using the barometer of how much fun you're having as sort of an indicator—like, is what you're doing fun? Are you plugged in? Is it like your energy source when you're plugged into the wall? Does it feel like a drain to be working or doing stuff, or is it fun? Are you plugged in, turned on, and excited? Even if it's challenging, even if it exerts a ton of energy and you're going, going, going, there's a difference between forcing it and being plugged in. You're having a good time and really enjoying it at the same time. So, using that as a barometer: Is what I'm doing, even if it's challenging, even if it's difficult, am I plugged in? Am I present right now? Am I actually getting juice from this?

Omer: Yeah, I think it's very important to understand what gives you that juice, and it’s not the same for everyone. There's no one-size-fits-all. Obviously, someone can get worn out from hangs, networking events, jams, or whatever. Another person can really shine in those environments. I can tell you about myself—when I go to a conference, the first day is usually super overwhelming. I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that. It's hard for me to find myself and my center, and my focus, because I'm more of a one-on-one person. These conversations, I feel, are a lot more in my frequency.

I think that’s also important: to understand what kind of thing juices you up and what gives you that energy. Because, essentially, if it's people, then find the format. If it's creativity in video, find the format. If that inspires you, surround yourself with people who do that. I don't know if it's an obvious statement, but really, surround yourself with the people who give you that energy to continue with your art.

And that kind of goes hand in hand with building a team, which is also, again, the similarity between a business and an artist. You need people who give you energy, but also people who have the skills you lack—where you start, they begin.

I think it’s very important, once you’ve found that foundation we spoke about earlier—your identity, your niche, and your product, quote-unquote—your music, really expanding that. Once you really understand your foundation, it’ll be a lot easier to find the answers to who you need around you.

It doesn’t have to be five people. You’re probably not there yet, unless you’re a big success story and have a booking agent, manager, and all that. But at the beginning, it’s probably your first circle—friends who want to help you out, stuff like that. It can even be just one or two people, but they need to be people you click with.

Because there’s nothing harder than being on a team—especially a small, intimate team—with someone you fight with all day. We’ve seen bands crash because of that.

Wow, what was the name of that band now, that canceled the tour? Uh, I forgot. A huge band that did a comeback and then canceled all their shows because the singer and the guitarist started throwing punches on stage.

Michael: I think I saw a video of that moment with the singer, like, punching the guitarist.

Omer: Yeah, it was… did you see it? It was… never mind.

Michael: Correctly, it was a band where I was like, "Doesn't surprise me that much," just based on the genre, based on the music.

Omer: Exactly.

Michael: It's sort of like somewhat in the vein of, like, "Trapped." The song used to be played nonstop in the weightlifting rooms: "I will take you on, take on anyone. I know that you are wrong. This is not where you belong."

Omer: Yeah, you can only hear from the tone of their voice that they're mad at each other. The guitars are fighting with the vocals just through the music. The guitar then increases the volume of the distortion and gets angry at the vocalist. But it's Jane's Addiction, actually.

Michael: Mm, okay. 

Omer: It's Jane's addiction.

But anyways, back to the point: surrounding yourself with that setting that gives you inspiration. Also, as a business owner, you’ve probably hired a few people yourself that you just don’t have the right click with. But it’s essential to understand that you don’t have to take everything on your own shoulders. You don’t have to carry the whole weight. Just by talking to a person for five minutes, it can take you out of the loop you’re in, whether it’s for the whole day or the whole week. It can be easier, I guess.

So that’s another element I was kind of bringing to the table before I hopped on the podcast: thinking about team building, that essential part of team building, and picking the right people. I really think it can uplift you. And if you're a musician, I’ve heard the term “damager” used for a manager. That’s kind of the next phase—knowing who your manager is. If you bring somebody who’s going to take care of everything, they have to be someone you really trust, and you have to do your due diligence beforehand. The amount of these types of managers that I’ve met is just… scary. 

Michael: Yeah, that's an interesting term, "damager." I've never heard that before. It sounds like that's the original one. I like it.

Omer: I wish could take care of it, but… 

Michael: I know that in the last mastermind retreat, there was an artist, one of our top success stories, who was talking about her prior experience with a manager.

I know it's not always the case—sometimes you can have a great manager who's a good fit and that you trust. But with her, she unfortunately had an awful experience with a previous manager. She said, "Man, if I had known about StreetTeam, our software platform, then I would have known I could just have StreetTeam as my manager. I don’t need a manager."

I need to reach out to her and see if she'd be willing to write that into a quote or something like that.

Omer: It's a great testimonial, yeah.

Michael: So, it sounds like what you're saying is that it's really important to surround yourself with the right people—people who align with who you are, that you can trust, and who will motivate and inspire you in those times when you might be in a bit of a loop or a downward spiral. Just having a five-minute conversation can really lift you back up.

Omer: Exactly. And that spiral is something that you have to start feeling comfortable with and understanding that everyone has it. It's kind of that thing that haunts you a lot of times, especially if you're searching for how to finish a song or if something in the chorus isn't clicking. It's not like it just goes on and on in your head. That's when these things really come in handy—the mindset, the understanding that this is when you need a break, when you need to talk to someone, when you need inspiration, or when you need to find a hobby. Or, if you're stuck for a while, really just get mentored for three or four sessions with somebody who will get you started on something, even if it costs you.

I know that musicians obviously struggle with money, and that's the number one thing. And I know that Modern Musician helps artists reach that point where they can monetize and get to a sustainable income, which is great. But I feel that this part—the element of everything that happens after the creation—is so important. It's the logistical part, the strategic part, the marketing, the promotion, which is so stressful. It's the admin, which we really help out with at IndieFlow on the platform. It's so much to take on yourself, and you really invest a lot. You find yourself investing in plugins, a new mic, a new guitar, a new amp, but then for those things, you just feel like, "Okay, I just need now to put aside $2,000 for a marketing campaign."

No, it's really like there are quite a few things you can do with the budget. One of those things is learning how to prolong your resources—learning how to get into a routine that really makes you resilient. It helps you face the endless challenges more easily, find the team, take it slower, learn how to chill, and understand that it doesn't all have to happen at once. So it's also about the mindset: it doesn't only end with creating music and promoting it. It's such a complicated relationship that will always be in the background, no matter what your cycle is.

Is it album season, where you're creating now, or is it promotion season, where you're promoting and touring? That thing will always be there, the more unpleasant side of your day-to-day, but it will just go on and on. You just need to become comfortable with it.

Michael: Good stuff. Yeah, so there are a few different phrases or books I've read that point to what you're describing now, like The Obstacle is the Way—learning how to embrace challenges and not expecting that it will just be all rainbows and butterflies, but actually being able to lean into some of the discomfort and stretching your comfort zone. It's kind of like a rubber band—you don’t want to stretch it so much that it just pops, but when you have the right tension, it really can give you traction and momentum.

Super helpful.

Omer, man, it’s been great connecting with you on the podcast today. Thank you again so much for taking the time to come on here and share some really valuable lessons about mindset and starting a company. Regardless of what industry you're in, I do think that building a team, having a strong mindset, and looking at the lay of the land—understanding that people are collaborators, not necessarily all competitors—are super valuable. So I appreciate you taking the time.

Anyone listening to this right now, I know you mentioned earlier that you have 30 free subscriptions to give away. Can you share a little bit more in detail about how people can redeem those, especially if they’re one of the lucky first 30, and also tell us a little more about the platform you've built and how people can use it?

Omer: Yeah, so Rodi is an AI artist manager in an app. We developed it over the last year and released it three months ago to the App Store. The Android version is coming out pretty soon.

With Rodi, you can plug in your streaming and social accounts, and it connects to all your data, pulling in insights. It then maps you with similar creators. You can select what your goal is, which gives Rodi a picture of what you're looking to get out of using the app.

There are two main routes: one is getting recommendations on what to do next with your career, and the second is creating marketing plans or social posts inspired by similar creators, all automatically generated by AI. Of course, there’s AI involved, but yeah, it’s a great app. It’s really one of our biggest inventions so far.

We’ve been working on these things for the last five years, and we’re happy to offer the first 30 downloads on the App Store a free account for their first year. Just download the app, Rodi, your AI artist manager, from the App Store, and input the code ROADIEMM (ROADIEMM for Modern Musician). That’s ROADIEMM—R-O-A-D-I-E M-M.

If you're one of the first 30, you get it free for the first year. If not, no worries—we’re also offering 25% off, so you can still enjoy that.

Michael: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for doing that. And just to reiterate, the first 30 people listening to this right now—if you happen to be one of the people who listens to the podcast the day it comes out—definitely go do that as quickly as possible, because you might be one of the first 30 to redeem it.

If you miss the first 30, no worries, there’s also a discount, so you still get a nice second prize.

Awesome. Well, Omer, it’s been great connecting. Thank you again for taking the time, and I’m looking forward to talking again soon.

Omer: Thank you so much. It's been great, Michael. Thank you.

Michael: YEAAAH! Woo.