Michael Walker:  Alright. So, I'm excited to be here today with my new friends, Louis Marks and Fabian Brown. So, they are here representing Ropadope. Ropadope is an innovative music label. They're known for championing creative freedom. They have a diverse range of artists and genres and, really this a little bit backstage, how right now it's really unique time to be alive in general and also to be like an independent musician.

And it's important that rather than just, you relying on hope that we actually have some like realism and that we actually have tangible strategies and things to kind of focus on. So, looking forward to connection with them today and have a frank discussion about the state of the music industry and as an independent artist, you know, how can you best improve your, your chances of success. So, thanks for taking the time to be here.

Fabian Brown:  Awesome, Michael. 

Louis Marks: Thank you for having us.

Michael:  Absolutely. So, kick things off, for anyone that this is their first time connecting with you or hearing about Ropadope, could you share a little bit about your journey and how you guys got started?

Louis: Sure, I'll start back at the beginning. So, Ropadope was founded in 1999. The reason for the label was that a record label had turned down DJ Logic's first album, presenting Project Logic for the simple reason that no one could get their heads around. A turntablist soloing in a jazz band and so they put the record out and quickly, it started to sell and then they had to fill out a form for distribution and they said what's the label name? So, they created a label. That will be Andy Hurwitz and John Modeski from Modeski, and Martin Wood for the first few years, there was tremendous success.

There were offices that the Atlantic signed. The label as a label, Amit Erdogan chose that, and things were flying high and of course in the early 2000s everybody knows what happened to the music business. Napster happened and things went sideways. I joined the label. I was doing clothing merchandise for the label and many other record labels and artists at the time, and I joined the label as the buyer of the label in 2006 and began to reconstruct and we navigated through some very challenging times and turned a big corner in 2010 when we signed a band named Snarky Puppy.

There were five people in the audience when we went to see them and soon there were 500. And I say soon, I mean, in music industry years for four years later, and their eighth album was out and they were doing well. And since then, we've built a really big community of musicians, independent artists.

I think the defining factor is every album that we receive is someone who is doing this because it's in their blood. It's what they want to do It's what they want to be, and they're authentic representations, and they do not want, creative interference that comes with other people, record labels, and they also sit outside genres.

We like to call it Jazz Adjacent, but that's really even too narrow, but when an artist approaches a label with a certain sound and it doesn't fit neatly into a category that they can market, then that person calls us. So, bringing it to date and Fabian can fill in his journey. We've released almost 800 albums, things from Terrace Martin and Eddie Palmieri, Ramsey Louis, Sean Martin music and Jazz Adjacent, hip hop, country, rock, singer songwriter, semi classical, all kinds of things that brings us to here. 

Fabian:  No, that's good. You know, my entry point's a little bit different. In 1999, I was still a student at a University of the Arts. So, my jumping off point was actually the Philadelphia experiment, and getting familiar with that album and being like, okay, cool. And then, digging into the liner notes and understanding the breadth of what Ropeadope was becoming. I'm a musician. I'm a player, and I never actually thought of myself as being on the business side.

I did not go to business school, didn't think about anything related to business except for like “Hey, I'm going to book some gigs”. I knew Louis as a friend and, at the local watering hole if you will and we got connected through a mutual friend who was actually has a release on Ropeadope.

Yeah, I was in transition. I was an educator in music for 15 plus years and some things changed in education and I became available. Louis and I reconnected. He was looking to, I don't know, dare I say, expand Louis. I'm not sure if that's really what you were thinking.

Louis: It was a time of expansion. Yeah, that was a time of expansion.

Fabian:  I really had no plan again. I was just kind of a friend hanging out and one thing led to another. Louis was looking for some support for publicity and marketing with the artists that we were representing and being a good writer. But being a halfway decent connector and networker, I jumped in heads first and got to support and advocate for a tremendous roster of independent musicians who are all different range of the spectrum. But I would say that the joy that I get is there's a lot of significant culturally relevant and socially relevant topics that our artists speak to. And that really fires me up to this date and it's kind of an honor to be connected with some of the people and play a small part in helping push their brand and their creativity and their music forward.

That's my jumping in. And the future, we'll see what happens in the future. But these first, I guess it's almost a decade for me has been a learning experience, and things are rapidly changing, and technology has a way of forcing that change a little bit faster than maybe someone wants to expect. So, it's a shifting target, if you will.

Michael:  Awesome. I mean, absolutely. It seems like especially right now with everything that's happening music in particular and technology is really just like speeding up. I love to hear your guys perspective on, we teased it a little bit backstage before we hopped on here, but just around like being optimistic, but also being grounded and being realistic. And so, I kind of, I sensed the undertone there of like, you probably have a lot of experience now working with a lot of independent artists and you see some of the similar challenges from their mistakes kind of happening over and over again.

So, I'd love to hear from your perspective. What are some of those, when we refer to like maybe misplaced, hopes or misplaced expectations, like what are some of those biggest mistakes that we can help artists avoid?

Louis: I think the first thing to really fully understand and get your head around as an artist is that whatever you want to do creatively, that may not be the agenda of the people that you encounter in the music business, right? And you really need to kind of shift your thinking to a long-term approach rather than trying to get to the quote the next level or to find something happening, right? So, number one, understand that it's not going to favor you. Two, understand that comparison is the enemy of joy. So, trying to jockey against other artists or learn about your placement. This is not really helpful in your processing, right? And three, understand that the financial structure of recorded music is absolutely not really going to favor many people at all. If you understand that before you start then you can plan out, map out a life as a musician. I'm sure that a lot of people will be listening, have many ways to earn money and that's necessary. 

Steve Albini said don't make this your job. I'm not sure it would go all that way because some people do succeed and make a good living as a musician. But the thing that I see the most is people getting their statement and then getting disappointed and being crushed by the fact that the music business didn't deliver them success by a certain date or on a certain album release. Right? And the people that have a longer-term approach and balance out their touring and their day job, or even if it's music education, and then view the recorded part of the business as some form of expression that they can build over time. Those people are going to have more success, and be less emotionally drained from the process.

Fabian:  Yeah, they call it the music business. Right, Michael? And I think as a creative person sometimes, as artists can kind of just be in the world of creativity, optimism and hope, and that's great. Right? But it's a harsh reality out there. And just like most industries, things are being disrupted. 

So, what does that mean? I think step 1 is this clearly defining what are the goals, right? Because sometimes getting to the next level, that's arbitrary. That is not a final destination. And if you don't have a long-term plan or a long-term thinking in mind, you're not going to hit anything.

And what are your expectations? Right? I'm not saying having low expectations or I'm not saying be pessimistic with it, but what are your realistic expectations and what are the steps to get there? Because I know for me, personal experiences, if my experience is not lining up with my expectations, then I'm out and then I'm disappointed. I'm disgruntled. I'm frustrated. And usually, I project point the finger at anyone and everyone else except for myself. So, who are the people that you're surrounding yourself with that may wear a different hat other than the creative hat, right? Who are you networking with? Who you're talking with? And then, what are you doing with your fans and how are you cultivating a real personal relationship? The music industry can very quickly go to the Costco's and the Walmart's and like the volume more is everything as opposed to really nurturing and captivating a fan base.

This is not like rocket science either. It's sometimes the simple things that move the needle. And like Louis said, have long-term thinking and, look at your goals and your expectations in the process. It can be disheartening sometimes looking at some statements coming through or artists coming in and dropping 10, 20, 30 thousand, whatever dollars in the recording project, and then hoping and praying that the sales of records is going to be enough to recoup that. It's challenging to say the least. But yeah, so those are some simple things to consider and to think about from my perspective, at least.

Michael:  Totally makes sense. Yeah. It sounds like what you both are speaking to is sort of the power of setting expectations and goals, ultimately, and choosing the right goals and being clear about like smart goals that they're specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, time-based.

Louis: I could add just to take that outta the philosophical realm and into like practical applications. So, when I say like think long term, how many albums are you going to make in the course of 10 or 15 years? How are you going to register them properly so that you have track of them after you make your third and your fourth?

And make sure that your money is lined up and set up. Get yourself organized. What happens if you don't get what you want on album one? The business people say bad entrepreneurs are people who do their first year in business over and over and over and over again. So, if you start into that mindset, then the practical stuff will come. But those are just some simple examples.

Fabian:  And then on the creative side to Michael, it's like, what kind of art are you creating? Right? Well, first of all, are you creating art? Like let's just start there, right? You know, there's a difference between the entertainment industry and the music industry. So, what is your message? What are you speaking towards? What's passionate on your heart and in your mind, what do you stand for? What do you stand against? And is your music, a reflection? Is it an extension of what it is or who you are? And then, furthermore, are you connected with organizations or businesses or nonprofits or people that are also in alignment with that message and with what you're standing for and standing against sometimes I think it's really easy.

Louis always says, get it out of the record store and put it in the art museum, right? Us artists, how can we continue to perpetuate art? Right? And not just, whoa, whoa, whoa, there's a reason for pop music and that's, cool, I think there's a select group of people and I think your audience speaks to that too, that are trying to make a difference, leave a legacy, have purpose and be connected in those things. So, this is something to connect or to consider for the creatives out there on their creative process. I would never meddle with what they should be creating. I would just offer a way of thinking about what it is that they're creating.

Michael:  Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's really interesting where things are at in terms right now because of the tools that are available, like independent artists really can kind of establish those relationships. They don't have to water down their message. And to your point of like, defining who they are, getting really clear on what they stand for, what they stand against. Now they can kind of find their little niche in the worldwide web of people that resonate with that message.

And so, love to hear you guys perspective. Now that the possibility exists to be able to find people that really resonate with your message. And you kind of have the ability to take it into your own hands. Let's imagine that people are kind of taking a realistic approach to setting specific targets, specific goals and that's one example.

They want to get a thousand fans in their community but like legitimate like real super fans that people that actually resonate with their music how do you recommend they start to cultivate that initial connection with that group of core fans?

Fabian:  I mean, I'll jump in. Yeah. That's the question of the day, right? That's the question of the year. First, let's just take a step back. How are people connecting with people? Outside of music, right? They have conversations. They chat over coffee. They talk about different ideologies. They're connecting on a human being level.

I mean, that's one of the things where I love about Ropeadope, right? You know, maybe I shouldn't say this, but you know, Louis' curation process is quite unique. It's nothing like I've ever seen before in my life. Before even listening to one note of anyone's music or reading their bio, who they played with or whatever, it's just the connection.

Like who are you as a human being? And what's your vibe, right? Because if you're a difficult person or a difficult person to work with, why does anyone want to deal with that, right? So, I think creatives and musicians have knack for just being genuinely cool and vibey people.

I don't know. I would suggest this. Show up as yourself and just do the work and connect, right? Where is your audience hanging out and not just on the internet, but what do they do? What do they enjoy like putting the music on the shelf? I had a coffee with a friend earlier today and local coffee shop in town and as an entertainment lawyer and whatever we're just catching up because our kids go to the same school. And we go to this coffee shop and we get our coffee. And the first thing he's noticing is all the photography on the wall. He's like, “Oh man, did you, did you know this?”, and he's like really getting into like the photography on the wall.

We had a whole conversation, nothing about music, but it's about art in general. Things that we both enjoyed and respect. So, I think sometimes artists kind of get stuck in this little bubble where they're always trying to pitch or always trying to sell, always trying to make a dollar off of something.

And sure, those things are necessary to be sustainable and to pay the bills. But at a human being level, what are you doing to genuinely connect and keep and nurture those relationships long after that connection piece? I think sometimes it's just finding out what your fans are interested in and what your fans are all about.

You know, it can't just be about me as the artist. What are your people talking about? What do they enjoy? What are they listening to? It's just like, I don't know, man. It seems so simple. It's almost kind of silly to even speak out loud, but that's the kind of stuff that's sticky. And that's the kind of stuff that is rememberable to people, in my opinion.

Louis: Yeah, I think it's to keep the social in it like the connections that you make, in both directions are going to be the things that sustain you. They'll sustain you in great times and they'll sustain you in difficult times, right? One of our policies here in social media, for example, is to just go to the comments and respond. We high-five people. You just give a like on YouTube, it’s not hard. That’s basically letting the person know, a fan know, that you see them, that you acknowledge them and that’s all everybody wants anyway. And nobody’s gonna continue to do business if they’re not acknowledged or continue to be a fan and love you if you don’t acknowledge their person. And flip it the other way, when you’re approaching the business people because I think the curator, people like yourself, Michael, and the people who are running the record store and the people who are doing publicity or doing the radio show. Despite, all the hype to the contrary, this disconnected, I made a cool TikTok video and I made, and I got famous. It doesn't work for enough people, right? And it doesn't last. People can turn and be like, “Oh, you said something dumb, we're out,” you know? So, when you approach the fans a certain way, and then you also approach people in the business a certain way and try to fill your contact list with people who are responsive. But when you approach people in the industry, you have to acknowledge them first. Always. 

I get hundreds, if not thousands of emails from people who have not visited the website and have absolutely no idea who we are. It's immediate delete because busy. I'm not making it up. I have a certain amount of time. and when somebody says, “Hey,” and misspells the company name, or “Hey, listen to my album.” It's like, sure. I'll take an hour out of my day to listen to your full-length album and learn about it when you misspelled my name. It's just not going to happen. So, when you're reaching out to people on both sides, keep the social in it. Understand there's no shortcut for dealing with human beings. We're all scrambling. Everybody is. So, take the same approach to your social media just in general. It's more social than it is media. That's what works.

Michael:  Good stuff. Yes. So, sounds like what you guys are saying is that, you know, a lot of what it comes down to is just being a good human like building relationships, right? And building community and so you genuinely need to show up and you need to care about other people. You need to shine a light on them and it's not always about you, but it's really about the relationship.

It's about you getting to know them about building a relationship. And so same way that you build relationships in any way is by showing up and being open minded, being humble, listening to them, trying to understand them, caring, being interested in them. And by doing that, you can start to actually build some authentic connections that will last more than just sort of a shallow viral pit that someone maybe saw you, but they didn't actually build that real relationship. 

Louis: Right. And the thing is to stop choosing that. Right? So, it goes back to what I said at the beginning of what is your mindset and your expectation? I have an artist who is pitching big things with big magazines all the time, trying to make it big, get the more listeners, the more viewers. 

And one time I said, well, you know, 10 people bought your album for 13 dollars on Bandcamp. Have you messaged any of them? And the answer was what? What? And I'm like, they're the only people that are paying you so far. Don't stop swinging for the fences with people that you don't know and start cultivating the people and talking to the people that have paid you and have shown some attention.

Michael:  That's a great lesson. Yeah. It feels like it is sort of human nature to always be looking outside or looking externally, thinking so hopefully something else or someone else is gonna like to come and save me when it is sort of like internal. 

Louis: I don't think it's human nature. I think that the music industry, the people who put out the media all the time are telling us that every day. They're just saying, “Hey, you too can make it big.” And what happens is they make it big because they are able to get everybody hustling to give away their music and then they pick the one that's they think is going to win and then that's it, you know? Just a constant barrage of people telling us in the music business that you can make it big. 

Fabian:  Yeah, it's not the artist's fault. It's really like almost programming and we're trained where we're indoctrinated with a bunch of shit and to unwind that and undo that, that sometimes is the biggest challenge working with independent artists because they've been served this, and they're jaded. You know, it's like being in a bad relationship. Sometimes when you're burnt so bad, you just don't want to date anymore or, one time I had Taco Bell and I got food poisoning. I never ate tacos again. You know, it's like that. You just had this horrible taste in your mouth and you just become this person that is not in your human nature. And it's the process of I'm learning all of that crap. Dude, that's not easy.

It's really, really not easy. Especially when you have stars in your eyes and you're looking at the Grammy's or you're seeing all these things happening. And cool, if that's your goal and that's what you want to get there, there's a process, man. And that’s going to take some time and some work to get to that process. But in the meantime, on the way to that big audacious, goal, how about connecting with the 25 people that commented on your last social media posts and you know what? Even better, comment back and then go to their social media and see what they're interested in and liking and comment on their stuff. Build a community. When you're creating your music, what is it speaking to? Go find pockets of people that speak to that, that has nothing to do with music. So, I’d get off my soapbox. I can get just so simple and I don't want to belittle it, but it's also going to take some consistency too.

It's going to take you getting up every single day and working towards it. You know, where you put your attention, that's where things will grow. And some people get out of the race before anything happens, anything materializes and it's a shame. Anyone can make music. I can take 5, 000 dollars and get a pretty dope home studio and my thing and forget it. I can pump songs out left and right. What is that?

Louis: I can't.

Fabian:  I can't either, Louis, but I'm just saying you get my idea. It's just like, you get it. It's difficult, Michael. This is what this whole program, this is what you're advocating for, right? You know, you've assembled, a great community of people who are like, what is it? What is it going to take? And it's not just one thing. It's a lot of things done over and over and over consistently. It's about putting the right people in your circle, right? People in your network and being open and stop pretending to know everything and understand things are fluid things. There’s nothing more constant than change.

Michael:  Absolutely. Yeah. And I think what you guys are sharing right now is like the truth. It's like the distilled like version of the truth, which is just like relationships, connections, showing up, like building a community and doing that by caring and being interested in other people. So, I love that we kind of just drilled right down to the truth, which is ultimately probably like the most important fundamental part of all this. And even the next question I'm gonna ask is sort of like if we didn't have this part, then this next part wouldn't matter at all. For artists who maybe they have decided and they've kind of put in the work, like they've actually started to really show up and connect with people and build community, both in person, like related to music and, they're starting to build a community.

Maybe they have a thousand or a few thousand people in their community on their email list, and they're starting to really network. And now, they're starting to really want to pursue, how do I generate enough of an income with my music in order to spend more time and energy kind of focused on that community and focused on creating like you mentioned, like “Let's imagine they have good expectations.” Like they're not expecting overnight. I'm going to make a million dollars or even a hundred thousand dollars, but they want to do it the right way. They’re willing to put in the work and put in the time to do it the right way. What are some, tips or strategies or advice that you'd share with artists right now? Specifically, as it relates to in today's day and age, when things have evolved a lot in terms of the monetization model, what are some good opportunities that artists might explore to be able to generate more of an income with their music?

Louis: I think one of the first things that people can do, this is where we're headed as well, and it depends on the style of music that you're doing, right? We're coming from a corner of the quote business that where people make full length albums mostly. And they generally are, if they're not a particular concept album, they're certainly a glimpse into the artist's full creative process rather than just a single that represents one piece of what they do.

So for those people, I think looking to patronage as a new method is very important. There are some people that advocate that every musician become a nonprofit and look for the people around you that are actually going to support do it in an organized and consistent and logical way, not like “Hey, I have an opportunity to go on tour, but I'm going to lose 10, 000 dollars. Can you give me 10, 000 dollars?”.  Set yourself up as this is a brand. This is my life. This is what I do. Write your materials to talk about, who you are as a musician, and present that to different people that you might know, or you can connect with. And that's the first part of your grant proposal, if you have to write one.

Look for places to find money to subsidize what you do, and don't be afraid of it. You know, everybody's parents gave them an instrument when they were kids, so that was your first patron, right? So, you know, you didn't buy the guitar when you were six and so it's okay.  And sometimes our world sort of looks down on that, which is not good but it’s fun. But then also look to the, what I like to refer to as the curator economy as opposed to the creator economy, so there's another little pillar of thinking that is ubiquitous in music.

And that is that if you're not with a label, you're independent and independent should not mean alone. And you have to kind of step outside of that definition and look at who your allies are and look the curators, which is sometimes referred to as middlemen, as if that's a bad thing, these are people who are working very much to advocate for musicians and to connect them with other people and to find opportunities for them, and I'm talking about the record store guy.

I mean, if you have a record out and it's physical and you can get it into a store, you should be talking to the owner. I mean, they're right there. The record store model is not one of a top down, like a Walmart franchise. There's usually an owner who works in the store. So that'd be somebody, people who are on the radio, like prioritize the key curators in the business that are helpful to your business and that you can trust. It’s very easy, you just look at their track record and see what it is, right? And de-emphasize the people who are trying to sell you the stars and build a network that way to get to that model. But you do have to keep your day job until it's right. There's a point at which you jump, but if you try to plan what that point is first rather than just sort of doing it on a hunch at given point, then you're still going to make a split-second decision. But you're going to have a better data set when you do make that decision. And again relationships, relationships, relationships, because they'll always come around to find the opportunities that you need when you have down times.

Fabian:  It's really well said, Louis, and I agree, Michael. And the only thing I can think that I would add is the word that keeps coming up for me, listening to Louis is diversifying, right? And, not putting all of your eggs in one basket. There's the quote, I had to look it up. The Jack of all trades, master of none, right? But there's a second part of that quote, right? Jack of all trades is a master of none, but often times better than a master of one, right? That's literally my experience, stars in my eyes. I'm a saxophonist. I'm going to do all these things. Right? And life has a funny way of humbling you and also has a way of just kind of putting you in different places, right? So, I wasn't afraid to pick up my horn and make some bread. I wasn't afraid to become an educator and make some bread. I wasn't afraid to book other musicians that needed music and make some bread. I wasn't afraid to take a risk and put on festivals and bigger things, right?

I'm always open to the idea of diversifying who I am as a person and putting myself out there and letting people know. Now, look for some people that could be confusing for your branding or for your messaging, right? But there is a way that you can consolidate all of the things. It goes back to what we were talking about earlier. And what you have pointed out is just being a good person, right? That is the brand. The brand is I am a good person and the vehicle that I choose to be a good person is called music. Right? And sometimes I'm the curator of music. Sometimes I'm the performer of music. Sometimes I'm the educator of music.

And there's no shame in that whatsoever. I can remember back in the college years, the jazz police, if you were playing giant steps in all 12 keys. Dude, you don't get it, man. You're this, you're not this, you're not that right. And those guys today that are like burning on their instrument. Some of them are still living with mom and dad, no shame in that either.

But it's perspective for me, right? So, I would encourage people to pursue their goals, pursue their dreams. And I would also encourage you to find diversification in your approach to monetizing. What it is that you want to do? Maybe the teaching gig can subsidize the recording project that you want to put together, right? So maybe you're burning the wick at both ends. Maybe you're working 80 hours a week at your day job, but you're taking X amount of dollars and cents to put towards your project and maybe you don't need patrons. Maybe you don't need that, right? But there's it's going to take a level of thinking differently in order to get to where you want to go. But at the fundamental like we talked about where your goals, right? What are the milestones to get to those goals? So, anyone that is at that level where they've amassed a following and they're at venues, right? That are a different spot, right? They now need to look at their art and think about it as an entrepreneur. What do I have to do to get from point A to point B? What are the steps? Who do I need to connect with? You know, what are the skills the I need to develop as a person or what other people that need to surround myself with that can compliment the skills that I don't have. It's like growing anything. It's an entrepreneur. Musicians are, you know, they're entrepreneurs in training. Once they realize that things can, get pretty interesting and can grow, 

Michael:  Good stuff. Yeah, this conversation is fantastic. The visual that kept coming into my mind as you both were sharing the advice around monetization was around like a tightrope walker. And if like the tightrope is like, you're learning how to build a successful music career and you have a goal and you're kind of like one step at a time, trying to get to that goal, but it's important to have a safety net like below you.

So, don't let go of your day job if you're not ready for it. Make sure you have a plan. Make sure you diversify. Make sure you have that net in place because you don't want that you're going to be super hesitant to even like step out and walk out and really do the things that are required to give it a real shot.

If you don't have the confidence of knowing that it'll be okay if I like to fall down, or kind of have to have that willingness to like fall down and look stupid and just try and see what see what's happening, without worrying overly about taking that first step and potentially falling down.

Fabian:  That's great.

Michael:  Awesome. Well, hey guys! Thank you again so much for taking the time to come on here and share some perspective about getting down to the grassroots of really what it takes to kind of start as an independent artist and build an authentic relationship with your community and start to actually treat it like a business and being an entrepreneur.

So, for anyone that's listening to this right now that resonated with these ideas and is interested in checking out more of the resources that you offer, could you share a little bit more about where they can go to connect more?

Fabian:  Yeah. Really easy places, ropadope.com. I would call that the destination for reviewing the gallery of art that we've assembled over the past 25 years. If people are interested in exciting on where things are going for the next 25 years, I would encourage them to look up Third Way Cultural Alliance at twca.xyz. Having a front seat where things are at currently with the music business. There's no denying that there's a sense for change and for development and how are we going to-, I hate to say fix the music problem, right? But what are we going to do in our world, in our corner to continue to advocate for artists that have a message for artists that wants to impact people with their causes, and I want to connect culturally with their community and socially with their community. And Louis hit on the head with patronage, that is the way to go. There's a lot of people, a lot of entities out there that will support the tradition of music and, holding on and preserving what once was.

And interestingly enough, there are a lot of people that are also are looking at contemporary art and wanting to preserve that as well too. Right? So, people are interested in finding out what that looks like, I would just encourage twca.xyz to find a little bit more about that. And Louis, I'm not sure if you want to put any accents on that.

Louis: Those are the spots. I mean, we still have a pretty active Bandcamp page, ropeadope.bandcamp.com, where you can kind of looking in the window. Yeah. Right? Because you get to stream and see what's there and then, if you want to do a deeper dive you can go over to Ropeadope and then if you want to see what we're building for Third Way Cultural Alliance, that's at TWCA.

You know, Michael, it's really a pleasure to have an opportunity to speak to your audience, in this forum and also to connect with someone who I consider a part of the curator economy. Someone who's dedicated and actually providing relevant and fair service to musicians. So, thank you.

Fabian:  Michael, you do a great job. I've been on your list now for a couple of years. And, Discord, it was kind of like, tough to kind of get through that initially. But I pushed myself through and, what you're building, what you've built and what you continue to build and the community of people.

It's phenomenal, man. It is very rich of musicians and artists, seeking, and searching and the vibe, you can tell you've assembled, something very special and something very unique. And yeah, continue to do what you are doing, man. You're doing the good work, bro.

Michael:  Thank you. I appreciate that and I appreciate you both being a part of it. And you know, this podcast is an opportunity for us to just talk about like what's happening right now. It's working together so definitely feel like what we're doing collectively is really what it's moving the needle for the culture.

So, thanks again for being on the podcast today. And like always with the links in the show notes for easy access and look forward to talking again soon. 

Fabian: Awesome. Thanks, Michael.

Louis: Yeah. Thank you, Michael. Appreciate it.