Molly Neuman: One of the things that's really hard, probably for a lot of early career artists, is to think that like, there is one easy path, or there's no path. I think that there's obviously an in-between. So I think that is probably… versus thinking that you're going to be playing the half-time show at the Super Bowl as your goal. What gives you the connection and energy to the music that you want to create? Is it an idea, a passion, a pain? Whatever that you have to get out, that's probably going to give you the best path.

Michael Walker: It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician and it's only getting better. If you have high quality music but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

YYEEAAHH!! Alright, so I'm excited to be here today with my new friend, Molly Newman. Molly is the president of CDBaby, and the former CMO of downtown music holdings. So she leads strategy for downtown's primary D2C business serving millions of independent artists, and she's helped grow SongTrust to over 3 million copyrights for over 350,000 writers in 145 countries. She's been recognized in the industry as Billboard's digital power players in women and music lists. She started her career as a drummer in a Riot girl band Bratmobile. So she's the real deal. I'm honored to have you on the podcast today and hear a little bit about your perspective being the president of CDBaby and with your career in music, I'm sure you've seen a lot of transformation/evolution, kind of where things have gone in the music industry, and right now there's all sorts of crazy stuff happening with AI and the future of music is kind of crazy. So, I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective.

Molly Neuman: So many things. Yeah, no, thank-you. I've been doing this for a long time in lots of different ways, meaning I've been working in the music industry for a long time, but it is interesting. Over the years there's been sort of a through line or I would maybe not like a through straight line, but it's like a wavy up and down line thatmakes a lot of sense. I think when I look back on starting as a musician, certainly in the early 90s, where part of our motivation for our band and for me, personally, was to help be a part of giving more visibility to women musicians and artists and songwriters and record company executives and sound people and tour managers, and just more visibility for women in general amd where we are in the industry now all these years later. It's been a pretty fascinating journey. 

Michael: I bet. So maybe, maybe you could take us a little bit behind the scenes and share a little bit about your story about starting as a musician, and becoming the president of CDBaby. 

Molly: Yeah, sure. So I started, I was a college student. I was ambitious in wanting to meet new people. My best friend, who I met at college at the University of Oregon, was from Olympia, Washington and Olympia has a pretty unique music scene and history. Even at that time, it was very underground, but still making an impact. There was a big connection between Olympia, Washington, and Washington, DC where I'm from originally, but also with other high sort of intensity music communities like Glasgow and London and Chicago and cities that obviously London and New York and LA you think of as music cities and obviously Nashville as well. Seattle has a big identity for music. Olympia is just an hour and change away, but had its own identity. A lot of that was rooted in finding space and making space for artists and for music that wasn't mainstream, certainly was not what major record companies were signing, and that was something that was really attractive to me. I've always been someone who kind of, maybe the way I grew up: if something wasn't being done, there was certainly no barrier to you trying. It didn't mean that you were going to be successful, but trying was always encouraged. But also finding that reality that many women weren't as encouraged as men, perhaps, and I think that's true for other underrepresented categories of identity. That was something that was really motivating to me and the time in the world where political activism was making an impact, so if you think back on sort of the anti-apartheid movement, there was a lot of support in creative communities for finding ways to support the change in South Africa, and that was another sort of zone of inspiration for me. As I started making music and we started our bandm and our band was all women and, we were connecting with other bands that were all women or mostly women. Fanzines were a thing. So we were finding ways to communicate and network with it being pre-internet too, right? So finding ways to create community that were very tangible, but also about playing live and going to new towns and finding bands that maybe had shared values. Probably not the way that we described it then, but that's the way I think about it now. Independence and, sort of just that youthful energy, finding people. We played on our first tour in Sioux city, Iowa. [Michael Laughs] Oh yeah. 

Michael: I grew up in Vermillion, South Dakota. So that was like 40-45 minutes away. It was like part of my stomping grounds growing up. 

Molly: I wonder if you ever made your way to Minot, North Dakota, right? I've played in Fargo. We played Minot. We played Sioux City. We did a lot of at the central Midwest and Western states because we were from the Northwest primarily. But just to go back to Sioux City, we rolled through town and we were like: no one's going to come to the show, #1. Then we got to the venue and there were kids milling about, and then the opening band played and they were doing a circle pit and we were like: oh no, they're going to hate us. It's just not going to go well. And by the time we played, it was ania. I mean, people were slam dancing, they were stage diving. They loved it. We couldn't believe what was going on. We didn't have an album out. We had a single, and we had a bunch of songs that we had written, but it transformed our whole emotional state. It’s like: oh my God, this is incredible. So that is how I got my start through various paths to different…. Okay. Well, I graduated college, gotta get a job. Okay. I'm going to work part-time doing this. I really wanted to tour still. But eventually, touring really took its toll. It was not commercially successful, let's put it that way, by any means. So I ended up getting a “real” job, and one of my first opportunities was to work at Lookout Records, which was the first label of Green Day, and Green Day at that time had already signed to Warner Brothers Reprise Records, but they were blowing up with Dookie, and the label needed sort of a different approach. So my self-described qualification was that I had worked anywhere else. Like, everyone who worked there had never worked anywhere else, and so I had worked in offices, I had worked in different sort of organizations. Okay, we need a filing system. We need a database. We need to support the other artists that were on the label, and that was in the 90s when things in independent music were very successful. CD’s were the format of record, if you will, and were high margin products. They were not too expensive to make, and they were being sold at quite a high retail price, which obviously undermined the industry eventually, when consumers realized that that was not a sort of fair shake or wasn't the right balance economically. Right? So file sharing became the massive impact that it did in the music industry at the end of the 90s and sort of like the rapid decline happened with digital music being introduced legally in the early 2000’s and that sort of return that we have seen now, but it's a completely transformed industry. Right? So first we had downloads that you paid for, which I think probably most Gen Z, Gen Alpha, even many millennials might be like: paid for downloads? Like, that's so weird because streaming was not… I mean, even though Rhapsody was probably the first streaming service that was legal, it didn't really catch on until Spotify entered the US. The platform and the product, I think, was a fit for where consumers were at at that time and music fans. Now, all these years later, we have lots of choice in streaming platforms. A lot of artists are seeing the impact that that's had on their bottom lines, and there are lots of headlines and stories and different perspectives on that. The transformation that we're seeing, and now you mentioned AI and what that's going to be doing for both creation and the way that we run our businesses. Those of us who support artists and the industry in different ways. I mean, I think it's still uncharted. I hear a lot of expertise that people seem to have about what the impact of AI is going to have on all of our lives in all different directions, not just music, obviously, and I think there's still a lot to be determined. But it is having an impact, and so I think one of the ways that I've tried to approach my career is, mostly, when a new opportunity or a new way of doing something is presented, I try to be open to it so that I'm not stuck in the past, and left behind. That's scary. There's a lot of fear right now, I think, in lots of different aspects of the music industry for artists. 

Michael: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that feels like a very honest answer about kind of where things are at with AI.

Molly: When I hear people talk about their expertise, I know that there are people who are studying these things much more deeply than I am, so I can't discount their expertise by any means, but I also think grand predictions about change this early in a transformation are sometimes a little foolish in that we don't quite know. I mean, there were a lot of people who were very bullish a couple of years ago about lots of different things, right? NFTs, blockchain, all sorts of different platform transformations that we were going to see for the music industry. I was probably on the side of more skepticism and I received some criticism for that, which is fine. I also think, a couple of years later, some of those things that really took over all of the articles and all of the panels and things like that, we're not really talking about them anymore as much. Right? That doesn't mean that they're not still relevant, or that for certain parts of the industry, even, for example NFT’s, aren't worth consideration, or that maybe they are a good model for certain kinds of artists or certain categories of artists’ lives. I don't know what you think, but for me, it really felt like it was taking over the discourse. 

Michael: Yeah, it's super interesting, and I think you're absolutely right that if you ever make grand predictions about the future, you're kind of just begging to look like a fool at some point. I've seen some videos on YouTube of talk shows where they're talking about the internet and the early days, and people are kind of like: “Oh, like this internet thing. Like, have you heard of radio?” [both laughing]

Molly: No, I know, but there's so much. I think that's a really good point, too, because it's also important to review things that have impacted our industry, especially from the industry perspective. Right? So where you see many companies as the original Napster was taking hold and really impacting the paradigm, the infrastructure, the way that we thought of things, and the money, right, the main angle for response was punitive, and I think most of us who have been through that, or who were even closer than I was to it, recognized that that was probably not the right way to handle things: going after individuals for sharing songs that they found. There's probably a different way that that could have been managed, but when things are changing so quickly and you're looking at: Oh, what does this mean for my business, for my customers, for my artists? It's rational. But I think at least now we seem to have been thinking a little bit more about: okay, this is happening. How can we make it work? Whether it's with Gen AI and all the models that have been built around artists work, or the way that we scale the work that we do to support all the creativity that's happening. I think that's more where I'm focused because obviously I work with a platform that supports millions of artists who have created millions and millions of works, and how can we be partners with the industry and with those artists to have the benefit and value of all of the change that's happening? My personal taste, and this might be where I date myself, I personally don't see it's too much that's of interest listening to robots create music in the style of something that, whether I like a lot or was a part of or whatever. I just don't see that yet. So I don't know. That's kind of probably the more curmudgeonly angle, whereas I do see the technology that we have now helping artists create music. It may be a higher sonic quality. Certainly being on the industry side of things for so long, with better data quality and better attribution. We really do have so much room for human error still in this industry, whether they just enter a split wrong when they're registering a work with their performance society or whatever it's going to be. There are still ways you think: yeah, maybe technology could help us with that sooner than later.

Michael: Got it. Yeah, that definitely makes sense. So it sounds like what you're saying is that you haven't necessarily seen yet the appeal of just having an AI computer just to generate the music completely because it just isn't at the same standard for the most part. It's kind of missing sort of what the top 1% of music can really do, but, you also think that there's some great opportunities to improve some core systems and just like things that have a lot of opportunity to be improved in terms of making sure that people have their splits set up correctly. 

Molly: Absolutely. I don't know if you saw the news today, but one of the biggest bands from the 90’s and early 2000s, Oasis, is reuniting. Something that we never thought was going to happen. They said, the sibling rivalry and all of the things like they hate each other, right. They're brothers and it's never going to happen. Of course, never say never, right? That's probably one of the main lessons. But how many songs can we imagine have already been created in the style of Oasis that are probably pretty good, because their formula, originally, was something that you as an audience member or as a fan, I'm a big fan, could hear like: okay, I see this reference. I see it, plus his voice is amazing in my opinion, or that the riffs are so strong, but it really is somewhat predictable how those songs were crafted and probably if you put that into a model, you're going to come up with something not too bad. But do you really want to listen to it? That's what I mean. I think one of the questions I really have about the industry, especially working in a platform like CDBaby, where we have so many artists who are creating so much new music from their origin anyway: how much capacity truly is there for us to listen to all of this new music created by humans, all of this new music potentially created by Gen AI, and the catalog that we all love too? So I think those are kind of the more data driven real questions that I'm curious about. I don't want to say that there's not going to be, in all likelihood, some incredible music created that maybe you do find passion for. 

Michael: Yeah, it sounds like what you're saying is that one thing to consider is just the limited time that we already have to listen to music, and there's so much music and it's exponentially growing too. There's gonna be even more with AI gen. Whether it's completely devoid, it's just completely like the robot being like creating, or if it's an extension of a human who's creating using these tools to create faster, the end thing is still the same, which is more music, more available, but we have the same amount of time in the day and so therefore just cutting through the noise, it creates a bit of a challenge and a lot noise; a lot more than we can listen to unless we find a way to listen to music at 10x speed, which would probably kind of rob it of its enjoyment.

Molly: I mean, certainly maybe people do 24 hours a day. I think in our industry, one of the things also you'll hear is some of these other comparable media industries are way larger than music, right? Gaming, for example. Film and TV is probably a known larger media industry. So we're also competing with all of those things for time and space and mind share, but music also does fuel us in a different way. I think that's where it's always been the case and I see it now. 

You mentioned you have kids earlier. I have one daughter as well, and seeing her discover her passion and connection for music in real-time and sort of trying not to be too much of a laboratory scientist in my observations, but at the same time, kind of. [laughs] It's really fascinating. It's really fascinating to see all of the circuits firing when they start to hear the connections between different artists. I might plan to see: it sounds like this might have the same producer because we noticed some patterns in what we're listening to, and then to hear her kind of understand what that means is really… it's awesome. 

Michael: That is awesome. Yeah, I feel like you're speaking to just one of the great joys of having children in the first place: sort of vicariously living through them as they discover the world.

Molly: Not for everybody! But you know for me, it worked out. 

Michael: Yeah, absolutely. As you're talking about gen AI, it's interesting; I've been pretty mind blown by AI in general, generative AI, both in terms of when ChatGPT came out, but also some of the newer models with AI generative. At the time of recording this, there's yudio.com and suno.com, and like you mentioned, it's just the wild west in terms of the current landscape of it. There's been some legal questions around like copyrights and is the training data and should we be able to use it? So we're still figuring out a lot of stuff.

Molly: Absolutely.

Michael: My personal experience using it has mostly been having fun with my kids. My six year old son, Xander... You can imagine what a 6-year old boy with the power to create music about anything is going to create which is dozens of songs about Mr. Toilet Man and Poopy Butt.

Molly: Sure. 

Michael: Actually, it's fun. It's really fun to kind of create soundtracks and moments and to explore those tools. It does seem like, to your point, right now, at the time of recording this, it's just hard to predict and the exponential change is happening so fast too that almost anything that we could say feels like 6 months later, things that we're going to have evolved quickly. I guess one question for you: you have so much experience and background and kind of witnessing these evolutions of the music industry from different mediums, and on some level, I think that it's sort of like we're surfers in the ocean and there's different waves that come and if you catch the wave at the right point, then wow, you can get like momentum from it. If you're trying to catch a wave that passed 10 years ago, it's like, okay, well, yeah, that wave's already passed. So you kind of have to be looking at what's the upcoming wave and you can kind of get momentum temporarily, but ultimately the fundamental concept of like catching the waves is something that happens continually. So I'm curious from your perspective, having witnessed these different waves and evolutions in the music industry, and also kind of like where things settle afterwards where it’s like, Oh, it's kind of the way that it always has been. But now there's like this new thing. What's your perspective on this current wave with AI? Do you think that there's fundamentally different about this as a specific toolset compared to some of the previous evolutions with samples and drum machines? Does this feel like there's something fundamentally different or is it just anotherexample of evolution? 

Molly: Yeah. That's a great question. It does feel like it's different. I think it's different, as I mentioned, because hopefully we've learned from some of the efforts to throttle the evolution of technology as it impacts creativity that wasn't great, and the results of that were, I mean this is probably a very strong word, but probably carnage. If you look at some of the decline that we saw in terms of, not just the amount of money that music was making, but how it really impacted artists, and then how we sort of repositioned the return, and then artists have been sort of left out of that equation. I think that that is something different about this time. I would say companies like CDBaby and the companies that downtown that we support… We don't own any intellectual property. We are only the sort of administration partners and distribution partners, the creative partners to our customers. I think that transformation happening concurrently also has given us a chance to recalibrate things for artists to own more of their careers in a completely transformational way as well. So looking to the future where artists are going to make decisions about where they want to land in all of these changes more directly and not just be sort of at the layer or two below. Like: oh, my label and my distributor and all of these other people decided how we're going to work. Artists really do have the chance now to make those to have that autonomy, if you will. So I think that’s happening, along with this transformation, is something that's really new and gives me… I think probably from your experience too: most artists would prefer not to be burdened with the day-to-day management of the business decisions, right? It's tedious. It's not fun. It's not the creative part, until years in if we're so lucky to have years into a career as a musician, that they were like, oh, well, we're I didn't sign up for that! I think that what we're also seeing is now artists, at earlier phases of their creative journey, can be more informed, right? The information is at the layer of, “oh, it's some executive in a corner suite who's determined how I'm going to be impacted”. We really do have a whole different paradigm that's been made available. It's more work, but it's different kinds of work, but I've maintained, for lots of different parts of my career journey and different companies that I've worked at, and I've been fortunate that for the last 10 years, I've been working in parts of the industry that really do support that autonomy, and really do sort of support that recalibration of the music industry. So whether it was working at A2IM which is the independent label trade association, as the market share was redistributed to primate to more indies than the major record companies, and then at Kickstarter, where I worked directly with artists and on their creative projects and try to fundraise for just making an album or making a record or whatever sort of ancillary project they might have related to music, but giving them the connection to their community through that platform, and then having a fair price for that service, and never taking the ownership away; it was still in their hands, and then at SongTrust and and downtown and CDBaby where we support at a much more structural level, but the same sort of way of working. I think those are really wonderful changes in the industry that, again, for some artists, they still prefer to work directly with a record company and that infrastructure and I totally get why that makes sense for different artists, but I think it's wonderful to see changes. For example, we have an artist who decided to use the CDBaby platform to release her new single. She just cracked the Billboard top 100.

Michael: Wow!

Molly: Yeah, it's incredible. I don't think that that was something by any means available 30 years ago or 20, or even in certain cases, 10. This is someone who just with her management team, not like she doesn't have a team, but she has the control, and I love that so much. 

Michael: That's awesome. Yeah. So it sounds like one of the unique things that's happening right now with this movement is what you're noticing is there's a shift and control or ability coming back to the hands of the creators and the people to actually have more ownership in what they're doing. There are some benefits to being able to just let go of all the administrative business side of things and just focus on the music. That's a dream for a lot of artists, but never before has it been easier to actually take things into your own hands and actually be able to crack the Billboard 100 and to do that independently without a major record label. That's amazing. 

Molly: That's right. I feel like that is also kind of reframing the approach, right? That work, whether you're collaborating or you're writing your own music and you're recording it; whatever the sort of atmosphere of your creativity, it's an effort, right? I mean, it takes brain space, and I know that that's the preferred brain space for many artists. I guess what I've been trying to sort of propose is that there's a rewarding value in the other part of supporting your career. and that is something that's just… I hope that people as they start to build their careers really do see that value. I think that's what we're trying to propose at CDBaby. 

Michael: Awesome. There absolutely is a growing wave or growing trend of artists taking more ownership of their own careers, and like you're mentioning, finding joy in the creativity that comes from coming up with marketing ideas and building their business and connecting with their fans. 

Molly: Sure. Obviously we have a whole different universe of access between the audience and the artists now too with social media and direct communication. I know that's intense. I mean, I think anyone, whether you're a musician or not or any kind of person now feels the burden of the social media environment, but that's still another opportunity as well, as long as you can maintain your mental health. 

Michael: Absolutely. So, this has been great. I really appreciate you sharing your perspective and kind of where things have come from as a music industry, where things are going. Last question that I have for you is as an artist who you might be listening or watching this right now, is sort of experiencing this golden age where they do have more opportunity on their own to be able to build a career and use a platform like CDBaby to be able to launch and, potentially, hit some of the top charts, and maybe they're also experiencing that simultaneous challenge of: how do I cut through the noise when there's so much different music? How do I do something unique? How do I actually build an audience? I'd be curious how anyone that's listening to watch this right now, what do you recommend for an artist that, hypothetically, let's say that they're early on, but they've recorded an EP or an album. I know that CDBaby’s continued to evolve, like you talked about, and you've continued to adapt to the current tools that's available. How can they best grow and be successful using the CDBaby platform, and what'd your number one piece of advice be for them right now if they're just getting started and they have the music, but they're trying to build the audience?

Molly: Sure. I mean, I would say there's no formula, sadly, right? If someone tells you there is, they're probably asking for you to write a check, which is significantly more than it's probably worth at that earliest stage. Personal recommendation, and like I said this is probably this is one path, is to start as authentically as you possibly can. as genuinely as you possibly can to build your community. So you start where you are, you start by connecting with your social community. LA is unique because we have a lot of opportunities for, we have something called the hotel cafe. Right behind me on the street, there's a venue that has an open mic equivalent every Monday. I'm sure there are people who just go there because: why not spend a few hours on a Monday? If you're going to spend it doing anything, you might hear something incredible. That is not necessarily something that's in every town around the world, but there's something like that, and there's some way to build community. Obviously, the Internet and social media gives us chances to connect that are available to everyone, but it’s a lot of effort. I guess that's my main thing. I mean, you start with what you have, you try to grow and build your real connections and sort of credible and authentic support, and you try to build that into the places where people are consuming music, right? So whether it's social platforms or it's the streaming platforms. That's my main recommendation. I think it seems to be distracting for a lot of early career artists to think more about placing a sync, or something that's like a little more pie in the sky. That could happen. No one's here to say it can't, but it's not the most likely way that you're going to build an audience. So if you're a live performer, or you're a DJ, or you're electronic music, whatever. Obviously it's in that community that you will probably have the best chance of making those connections. I'm kind of old school that way. There's probably many more bells and whistles and tricks and twists that you could apply, but I would apply those after you started with the foundation. 

Michael: Awesome. I feel like that's another really honest answer.

Molly: I don't know any other way to be, Michael. I'm a punk rocker. [both laughing] I don't have the filter probably for some more pie in the sky solutions. One of the things that's really hard, probably for a lot of early career artists, is to think that there is one easy path, or there's no path. I think that there's obviously an in-between. We see the data, actually, talking about iconic artists even having to sort of build that middle phase of their career. So I think that is probably… versus thinking that you're going to be playing the half-time show at the Super Bowl as your goal. What gives you the connection and energy to the music that you want to create? Is it an idea, a passion, a pain? Whatever that you have to get out, that's probably going to give you the best path of connecting with other people, because we do all love music. I mean arguably, most new songs aren't original ideas, right? They're mostly about heartbreak or love or whatever. They're just a new filter on a similar idea. So I think there's lots of room. Also putting that passion with the craft I don't think hurts. There's always practice and energy and all of those things that apply to your music that will help people connect with it. 

Michael: Absolutely. Yeah. You know, there's a term that you shared there and throughout the conversation around like community and building community and starting with where you are and not having to…. especially nowadays with social media, it does kind of feel like we want a shortcut. We want a way to appear bigger than we necessarily are, especially at the very beginning. It's like a big, easy trap to fall into. And so I really love that advice.

Molly: Yeah. Yeah. You think you're like if you're my kid, she's not a Swiftie really yet, but obviously that's an iconic example of success, but there are also other things. I'm trying to bring her to smaller shows because, a) who wants to spend all that money necessarily? I'm happy for Taylor Swift to be so successful, but it's also like, that's kind of bananas. There are also other places to experience music too, right? So, anyway.

Michael: 100%. Yeah, I mean, it seems like community is more important than ever because of the amount of division that we sort of feel. Even though we have social media, we're all so connected, but we're also disconnected. I really appreciate the advice to start with where you're at and to authentically build one 1% at a time. I don't know if you knew this about ModernMusician or my backstory, but our band, how we got started was we actually approached fans who were waiting in lines for shows and we introduced ourselves and we shared clips of our songs. We did that for about 6 months or all I did every day for like 6-months as a walk up to fans waiting in lines for shows. We sold 24,000 CDs starting from scratch doing that, and that led to us building a community of fans and being able to tour for about 10 years. It all came from exactly what you're describing, really, just that grassroots connection and building community. Even if we're using the tools nowadays; there's some awesome digital marketing tools, but it does come back to that foundation that you're describing of connecting with people and building real community and authentic relationships. So yeah, that's great advice. 

Molly: I love that too. I'll be thinking about that too. I've only been in my job for 2 months (little bit over over 2 months) so as we're plotting new ways to introduce what we do to the music creator community, I'll think about your story too. 

Michael: Awesome. Yeah. If there's ever anything that I can do from ModernMusician’s end to support CDBaby, what you're doing, I think we have certainly aligned values. 

Molly: Great. Awesome. 

Michael: Awesome. Well, Molly, thank you so much again for taking the time to be here.

Molly: Thanks for inviting me! Hopefully we'll come back in 6 months or a year with an update. Michael: Absolutely! Last question: for anyone that's listening or watching this right now who would like to explore CDBaby and kind of get started and see what's the newest offerings, where can they go to dive deeper? 

Molly: It's just cdbaby.com. There's also a website that we've maintained for many years called diymusician.com that has most of the sort of tactical content that we're sort of always looking at new ways to present the facts of the business, and how to work within it. So those are the two easiest places to go, and all the social channels too. 

Michael: All right. Awesome. Well, like always, we'll put the links in the show notes for easy access and

Molly: Yes, great!

Michael: Thanks for taking the time and, and I'll talk to you again soon. 

Molly: Okay. Great. 

Michael: Yeeeaaaah. Hey, it’s Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today, and if you want to support the podcast then there’s a few ways to help us grow. First if you hit ‘subscribe’ then that’s make sure you don’t miss a new episode. Secondly if you share it with your friends, on social media, tag us - that really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review it’s going to help us reach more musicians like you take their music to the next level. The time to be a Modern Musician is now, and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.