Cari Cole: It's a funny thing, but people will say: why do you need to find yourself, because you're right there? You're not lost, you're right there! But, you know how when we look in a mirror we see a 2 dimensional, or one dimensional 2 dimensional reflection. If I look at my hand, I see it in 3D, right? But if I'm looking at my face, I never see myself from 3D, right? So, in a sense, that's a metaphor for: it's hard to see what is special about us, and sometimes we hide away the very thing that is the most special about us because we're protecting it. Or maybe that's where our wounds are, maybe that's where our sensitivities are or we think: oh, that can't possibly be interesting, or that kind of thing. So, it's already within you, your genius as an artist, and your instincts are trying to guide you towards it. 

Michael Walker: It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician and it's only getting better. If you have high quality music but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

All right, so I'm here with the one and only Cari Cole. Cari has coached Grammy winners and multi-platinum artists, like Justin Timberlake and Anastasia, with a holistic approach credited for their success. As an entrepreneur, she's founded a record label, a music publishing company, and helps launch a lot of aspiring artists now. She's also dynamically expanded the music industry, and done so as a vocal coach and a business leader. I have been hearing about Cari for a little while now from our team, from our community, and a lot of people wanted us to connect. So I'm grateful to have the opportunity for her to be on the podcast today. So Cari, thanks for taking the time to be here.

Cari Cole: Thanks for having me, Michael. Good to be here.

Michael Walker: Absolutely. So maybe to kick things off for anyone who this is their first time meeting you or connecting with you, could you share a little introduction about yourself and your story and how you got started?

Cari Cole: Sure. Happy to. Well, I'm a celebrity and holistic vocal coach, and artist development expert, and I've been privileged to work with some of the biggest names in entertainment. Although, there’s some other names to that list, and those weren't the actual names, but that's okay.

Michael: Oh really?

Cari: Yeah, that's totally fine.

Michael: Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry. Could you share the actual names? They always are saying that AI can fabricate…. [both laughing]

Cari: That's hilarious. Wow. I was like, wow! I've worked with them?

Michael: Maybe it's getting so good that it can tell the future. Maybe it's becoming predictive. Maybe that's what it is.

Cari: Yeah, no, I mean, I've worked with Donald Fagan from Steely Dan, Journey, Courtney Love, Chrissette Michelle, Diane Birch, Rainsford was an artist I developed and is on her way now. Tons and tons of people, but not those particular.

Michael: Not Justin Timberlake. Next! If he's listening to the podcast right now, then reach out.

Cari: And then a lot of people who are finalists on American Idol and The Voice and Songland, and I've developed a lot of singers and artists and songwriters careers. I've spent 4 decades now helping singers and artists really step into their full potential, and really up level and step into a higher level of craft and artistry which, to me, we'll talk about today, but I really feel is a missing piece. I mean, how I got started was as an artist myself, and went to music school here in Manhattan and was lucky enough to find an incredible vocal coach who worked with a lot of rock legends including Stephen Tyler and Bon Jovi and Annie Lennox and, I mean, on and on and on. I mentored underneath her. So, the technique that I have is really quite a superior technique. I was really fortunate. It really comes from Edward Dwyer who taught at the Metropolitan Opera, only. So it's really based in Bel Canto, and that's why it's so effective. But as I was training, and then trying to be a pop star, of course, and then at one point, my teacher's like: do you want to teach? Cause I'm putting together a bunch of teachers. So I got trained to teach, went through a two-year program and then worked for her for a little bit. And then she disbanded cause she didn't really like being an administrator. She just wanted to have her own career, and we all went off and formed our own vocal studios. I'm also a songwriter from a very young age and a published songwriter. I started not only just working on voices, but working on artists’ songs because the voice, while it is the star of the track, it is really, really critical and we'll talk about that coming up, I knew I had that piece down and I was delivering that to people, and I became kinda the pop vocal coach here in New York City that really had a solid technique behind her, and then also got all the broadway people and all of the artists trying to get signed at that time. And so it just kind of evolved from there. And then I worked also with a lot of young kids developing them. So as I was developing them, it was like: well, they need better songs. They're not strong enough writers. Right? So I ended up putting together a label services, which is really an artist label services company that is not for labels, but it's really for artists to get that high quality, highest level of label services in terms of A&R guidance and development, and really the artist development piece. So, it's been a really exciting journey. There's a lot of great stories along the way, and now I'm really looking forward to continuing to do what I do and building out the label more and moving into the next season. But, it's been an incredible journey.

Michael: That's amazing. Thank you for sharing. 40 years! So needed right now too, in terms of artists development. It seems like we're in an interesting phase where some of those artist development services with record labels don't exist in the same way anymore. Having had 40 years of experience in the industry now, and working with all kinds of artists across age ranges, different genres I'm sure, and some of the most successful artists in the world, I'm curious what you found to be, especially in today's music industry, what are some of the biggest challenges that you see artists struggling with as it relates to their artist development?

Cari: Yeah, absolutely. It's a great question. Cause you're right, it has really gone out the door. I really come from old school A&R, which is the matching of artists and repertoire to really get those artists to pop. We can talk about a few stories about that too, as I go. I really think that the creative process is missing. Artists are so consumed now with marketing and social media, that art is really suffering, and we have an over saturation of artists in the marketplace now because independents can put out their records. And while that's a really good thing, it's also a little bit of, not a scary thing, but a little tenuous thing because without getting the right curation of those products, they won't necessarily ensure the success of that product in the marketplace, right? And that's what everybody's after, right? I mean, at first you just want to do the album because it's a victory lap. It's like: Ooo I put out an album, or I put out a string of singles or whatever it is. But then after that, it gets tired really quickly if you're not advancing and oftentimes it's because the artist is trying to juggle all of those hats at once. I see artists rushing their music to the marketplace because they're consumed with all of those departments at the record label that used to handle all of those things is now on the artist's plate, right? So it's nobody's fault, it just kind of is what it is. I came up with a cycle-driven format for artists to really find themselves in that I just call The Four Seasons of Being an Artist. It's one of our pinned Instagram posts that's kinda went mini viral there. And it really talks about the importance of the different seasons. So the seasons are very simple: gathering, writing, recording, promoting. Not so fancy. If we are trying to do all of that at once, then we are missing the deeper artistic dive that we need to take again to find the magic in the music, and without the magic in the music, you can write for licensing, and you can be out there, and you can do things, but as an artist, are you going to pop through? Do you really have that incubation period? So gathering is when your creativity seems low and you're paranoid that you're never going to write again kinda feeling, and that's when the fountain is not flowing because you're gathering. You're actually gathering vital, critical information that is going to lead to that writing period. So it's important for artists to know that and respect that. It's not a matter of not having good enough craft and you're kind of stalling, right? So this is speaking to: your craft is good, but you're not feeling the inspiration. You could sit down and write a song, but you're not feeling that wild inspiration, and that's when you're in the gathering. That's really important because the artist is looking out at the world, processing the world, their own emotions, their own experiences, and that's what leads to really great albums is the perspective. That time is really important. So if you're always promoting on social media, when you're in that time, I always say, you're going in maintenance mode on social media. It's maintenance. It's like just your 2 or 3 posts a week or whatever it is. Then when you're hitting your promote your recording cycle, you're going to start upping your social media, but it's really important to just maintain the basics because otherwise, you're going to miss that opportunity. Then the second season is writing and writing is when the fountain is flowing. You have so many ideas, you can hardly stop, and you're waking up in the middle of night. Every moment is just filled with writing and it's really exciting, and you want to capture that gold when that fountain is flowing, cause it's not always flowing like that, and this inspiration is coming from the void for you to create. So that's when you really wanna super maintenance, just put a sign on your door “do not disturb during certain times” so you have time to write and you really respect that, and you go on solo songwriting retreats, or you work with other writers. Season 3 is when you're taking your lovely song bones and you're actually going to now bring them to life in the studio. In every season, you need a certain focus and you need a hyper focus. You hear Hosier talk about: I lock myself in a room and I don't come out until a year later when I've got an album, and that process is being missed. Then the fourth season is promoting, and that's when you're taking your beautiful work and bringing it out and sharing it with the world. You need energy for tha, and you need to align with your mission and who you are as an artist, cause that's actually the starting line in terms of getting your music out in the world. Derek Sivers says it best, the past founder of CD Baby, amazing Derek Sivers. He says a lot of artists think that the album completion is the finish line, and it is the finish line creatively, but it's the starting line for the promotion cycle, which is harder for artists I think. Or they get consumed by it. So that said, it's really important to identify for you guys listening, where you are in that cycle to understand and respect what is required of you to then be able to take that deeper dive, because to juggle all 4 seasons, you don't give yourself the ample process and time and you drain your batteries all the time because you're worried about the fear of missing out. Oh, one more fan, one more fan. If you're doing things more correctly in the seasons, you're going to be more successful within them. So it really comes down to quality over quantity, and Maggie Rogers spoke to this before the pandemic. She was talking about it. We had just released the artists’ the 4 seasons, and we just were talking about the importance of quality over quantity. This is tough because I know you're big in the marketing world, and we hear a lot about you, Michael, as well from our clients, and everything that you're doing is wonderful and amazing and extremely important, right? They need to come through our funnel of artist development and then spit them out over to you, because then they'll already have the message and the brand and all of those pieces baked right down into the songwriting, which to me, is the big piece that's missing. Because often the artist is making the record with just themselves and their producer today, right, and sometimes even virtually. So it's just those 2 opinions that are weighing in on everything, and it's not enough. It needs to be more curated in order to stand out in the marketplace.

Michael: I love it. The analogy of the seasons is similar to seasons for growing crops. If you try to just have the same crop every single season, it doesn't grow in every season and actually, the nutrients, you absorb all of them, versus rotating the crops and you actually have nutrients for each season.

Cari; That’s a beautiful way to look at it.

Michael: Great analogy. I mean, that really helps to clarify and kinda give space to some of those different things so you don't feel like you're juggling a thousand different plates at once.

Cari: Yeah.

Michael: One of my favorite analogies is a blossoming tree and planting a seed and it starts to sprout. One thing as you're sharing that was thinking about that tree analogy and in terms of the creative process and the seasons that you're sharing, almost like that gathering kinda feels like nothing's happening, but it's like the roots of the tree are starting to blossom. You planted the seed and it’s starting to sprout out. And then in the writing phases like the trees kind of starts to branch up and it’s starting to take form. And then the recording it's like literally like the fruit is starting to bear on the tree. And then promotion

Cari: …is the harvest!

Michael: …is when the apple falls off the tree and it blossoms, the fruit falls

Cari: And it goes to that person who takes that bite, right?

Michael: Goes to the person that takes the bite and ultimately finds its way back to the roots. But what's interesting about that analogy is thinking about if you do it properly in terms of the tree growing, in terms of creating a high quality product, a lot of the work of the promotion takes care of itself

Cari: That’s right!

Michael: Because the fruit’s fallen and then it falls from the tree and it falls into the ground and it's delicious and it tastes good, so people want to eat it. I have a lot of respect for the product and the marketing cycle, and I think inherently, your product is tied to the marketing because you need to have a high quality product in order to be able to come to market. I think it’s extremely important.

Cari: Especially in an oversaturated market. It's even more important now. You hear the enormous numbers of songs that are uploaded to Spotify every day: a million songs, a hundred thousand songs, whatever it is.

Michael: Yeah, and now you have like AI music too. 

Cari: Right. It's overwhelming, and it can be depressing but it's more important to curate the quality of the work, and I have a lot of things I can share with you for tips for how to do that, and then talk about if you guys want to come work with us, how to do that, but it's really critical. And we're seeing that artists, after going through our process, some in your community are getting deals with management, with labels, with sync, with winning major awards, placing as finalists, features in Rolling Stone, placing on the billboard charts. We see the fruit of that process. The numbers don't lie. The numbers are far superior in those songs after they've been through this process, or in those artist releases. Because they're, first of all, closer to that artist. We really have a deep process where we go to help you find your artist identity, and who you really are, and that means your message and your sound and direction, and just help you curate that more deeply and connect you with your work more passionately so that you are inside that. Your signature or your essence or your identity is really in that music, and that's why when people hear it, you can feel that in your solar plexus. You can feel the truth. You can feel that artist's truth. We don't maybe think of it that way, but we hear it and we go: Ah, there's this instant connection and recognition.

Michael: So good. Yeah, you know it when you feel it; when you hear. Sorta like the “it factor”. I'm curious as it relates to that specific topic, or just identity and finding their voice/finding their signature sound… I've always found this topic really interesting around the advice to be yourself. It's so important and so true. Also there's like: how could I not be myself? You know? But we find a way to get in our own way sometimes. So I'm curious, having worked with so many artists and help them through this process of discovering themselves and finding their signature sound, what are some of the things that we might not be aware of that we're kind of getting in our own way that are preventing us from being able to tap into our artist identity?

Cari: Yeah, it's a really good question. I think what I've discovered over time, in working with so many artists in many different genres, pretty much in all the genres… well, I haven't worked with heavy metal, but, well, I did. I was working with an artist who was doing a project for that, so I have. It's a funny thing, but people will say: why do you need to find yourself, because you're right there? You're not lost, you're right there! But, you know how when we look in a mirror we see a one dimensional, 2 dimensional reflection. If I look at my hand, I see it in 3D, right? But if I'm looking at my face, I never see myself in 3D, right? So, in a sense, that's a metaphor for: it's hard to see what is special about us, and sometimes we hide away the very thing that is the most special about us because we're protecting it. Or maybe that's where our wounds are, maybe that's where our sensitivities are, or we think: oh, that can't possibly be interesting, or that kind of thing. So, it's already within you: your genius as an artist, and your instincts are trying to guide you towards it. I've developed a process to help you find that. We did this with Tess Posner, who just won something or placed in finalists or something, or I don't know. There's a whole bunch of going on with the song Volcano that she came to write with our team. It starts with a deep dive. So we have an A&R profile, which is like a creative brief, and we have a form that you fill out that goes very deep into your musical history, your listening history, the things you are obsessed with or fascinated by. A lot on that form, and it leads you to take a deeper dive into your own musical history and your own likes and dislikes. Sometimes our dislikes lead us to where we're supposed to be, so that helps us. That's the beginning of the sound and direction. For instance an example: I was working with Ayla Norio. This was many years ago, but now she's signed to Reciprocity, and she plays the festival market and she has a huge following. When she came to me before any of that was happening, and she had a decent following, she was working on a record, she wasn't signed yet, and we did A&R on her record. We brought her through this process, and during the process, you fill out the form and then you come and have a series of A&R sessions with me where we're really looking to mine the gold in the sound and direction. And a lot of artists think: oh, I don't want to be boxed in. I'm an artist myself, so I know. I put a record out and stuff. We don't want to be boxed in. It's not about being boxed in. It's literally about figuring out how to take all of those amazing, diverse interests that you have in your listening playlists and what you listen to, and how to bring them into a cohesive sound and direction in such a way that, often, so with the example of Ayla this is a perfect little example of this as we were going through her listening history. I have a certain process, and then we start working on defining the sound and direction based on the information there, and then it's in conversations that the artist and I arrive upon it, and when we arrive upon it, we know because that artist lights up inside and they're like: that's it, that's it! You may have already albums out in a really good… like you're onto it already, but maybe you're missing that one key thing, right? We want to identify it. In Ayla's case, she was onto it already, but what was happening in the music was I noticed that a lot of her melodies were kind of sitting here. They weren't really popping or they weren't really standing out; pulling the emotion out. In her form, I saw in her listening history that she was obsessed with ABBA. Now, this is a girl who is singing earthy, crunchy, festival music, Trevor Hall, people like that, right? So it can fly in that setting of the festivals and yoga community and that kind of thing, but the music just wasn't popping. I saw ABBA there and I was like: Oh, that's perfect because ABBA is melody, and I saw that she was fascinated by that. And I was like: Oh, Let's try bringing that in, and that was the key thing that changed everything for her. And she did the record, went on and got signed, and now she's just flying in her career. Pregnant with a baby, getting ready, but very successful in her. So you never know what it can be, and sometimes it's something that you're really overlooking, and it's really important to have that conversation back and forth so that I can mirror you and look for things deeper. It's not my decision, it's your decision, but I guide you to it because my instincts are going to lead me from what you filled out, towards something that might be the thing that turns the key.

Michael: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. What came to mind was that quote about the cracks or how the light gets in, and you brought up how sometimes it's like the wounds or sometimes it's those things that you might not be aware of because there's the part of you, but when someone's observing and has some perspective to look and see those, that's where some of the lights will come out of.

Cari: There's a really good example of that. Clive Davis talks about it in his book The Soundtrack of My Life, which is a very good book to read for A&R, because that was his whole thing. I mean, he was just a genius with that. He talks about Barry Manilow. I'm not a particular fan of Barry, but this story is a great example of: here is Barry Manilow, who was just burgeoning on the scene, becoming, not famous yet, but very well known in the community, and at the time in music, this was just the beginning of people starting to write songs like the Beatles and the Rolling Stones. Before that, there were people that wrote songs for Elvis and the Lieber and Stollers of the world. The songwriters that wrote for label artists. So this was a revolution, right? And people were writing, and Barry was one of the first songwriters as an artist. So labels would look for songs for artists. Clive, found a song called “I Write the Songs”. He knew that that would brand Barry in the marketplace as a songwriter. That to me is old-school A&R. That's what I love to do, is find those themes. And we really work on themes and concepts in our A&R development and creative brief as well. So Barry was furious! He was like: no way, I'm not going to sing a song that I didn't write called “I Write the Songs”. So that's just ridiculous, Clive. I'm not going to do it. You know, and this feud went on for like 10 years. And finally, Barry recorded the song to get Clive off his back, and it became a huge hit, because it's branding him in the marketplace. It didn't matter if he wrote it or not. But I understand his aesthetic. I would feel the same way as an artist, right? But it put him in the front line.

Another quick example is Cyndi Lauper. So Cyndi Lauper, she was in the band Blue Angel. She was trained by a vocal coach, so she was there every Thursday before my lesson, and she had her spiky hair and her Queen's accent and all of her personality, right? She was in Blue Angel, she could sing for days, she had an incredible voice and incredible stage performance, but she wasn't breaking through. She had everything else. She didn't have a song. That's why the song is so important. Rick Chertoff, a well known producer at the time, was working with the label, and he had a song. Can you guess what that song might have been? I don't know if you're familiar with Cyndi Lauper.

Michael: I'm guessing from context, probably her most popular song.

Cari: Yes. Yes.

Michael: Gosh.

Cari: Well, people think it was Time After Time. That sometimes is where their mind goes, but it was Girls Just Wanna Have Fun. 

Michael: Okay. Those are both pretty up there. For me, I would probably gravitate a little bit more towards Time After Time, but I can appreciate Girls Just Wanna Have Fun too.

Cari: But Girls Just Wanna Have Fun cracked her into the marketplace. It broke her through into the marketplace because think of the album where she was going like this and dancing with her crazy clothing and hair and she had records in her ears for earrings. This was Cyndi, but it was just branded in a song in a way that all these young girls wanted to be that. So it literally made her. It broke her through in the marketplace and she became famous from that song. That's what labels were always after in those days with A&R was really matching. And we like to curate that process. I don't like to slap it on top, I like to pull it out from the inside, from something that's already in you.

Michael: Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it's interesting too. I think there is a corollary to the work that we do around promotion and marketing too around the sense of fear and concern around being boxed in or not wanting to put a label on what you're doing. One analogy that I really like, and I think it speaks to exactly what you're describing: you're not necessarily trying to create something different, it's really about positioning and about carving out the best pieces of you. It's sort of like an ice sculpture where you have this big block of ice and all of it represents you. If you carve it intentionally to create a story, then you can create this beautiful piece of artwork. It's not about not being you or being something else, but it's really just about how you hone in on, the way you put it, the genius of who you are.

Cari: The way you present it, what you decide to feature, you're gonna go through different periods in your creativity as you go through your albums and things like that, but there needs to be… John Mayer, he's got his blues thing, he's got his pop thing is the main thing, right? But he really can play a mean guitar, wild guitar, I mean, incredible, right? And then he also has his country or Americana kinda vibe, but it all fits under the umbrella of John Mayer, right? And once you're famous, you can take a few chances, but it's tough. You can lose the marketplace you really can, and that's not something a lot of people want to do. So it is important to carve the path, and that's why this A& R process is so important, because we spend a lot of time really going over it, and, from doing it now for I think about 10 years, we really notice that the original sound and direction that's on that A&R doc is the template. Because we go over it so much, back and forth, and many conversations, it really is the sound and direction that is not just trendy or something you might want to play with, but is real to you. And there's something about reaching that authenticity and identity on a sound and direction level, and then on a message level. I really do believe each artist has particular gifts to bring and if we can be brave enough to take a stand… I mean, look at great examples, Marvin Gaye. He was signed back in the day, and he was singing R&B ballads. This was before he became super famous. He was well known and he was wearing suits and skinny ties and he was singing romantic R&B ballads. Well, the Vietnam war happened and culture exploded and young culture, the youth, the hippies were angry that we were in a war, similar to today, and everyone started rebelling and this counterculture was born and this love revolution was born and all this stuff and that's when music was unbelievably exciting. But the story with Marvin was: he went out on a limb and he wrote an album called What's Going On, and it was about the war. And he brought it to his label and they're like: no way, we're not putting that out. You're going to lose your entire audience because this is the lane you need to stay in. But in truth, the new record was really more his true lane, right? He left the label, he decided to go for it, and he became massively famous because it really was his truth. And sometimes artists get stuck. Katy Perry's a good example of an artist that got stuck, where she had been signed 3 times and dropped, so she was flipping out, that her career might not happen, right? And Interscope came to her and had the song I Kissed A Girl and I Liked It, and they said: okay, it's either this song or no song. You're either going to do this song or not. This is the package. We have it all set up. We have all the marketing set up and everything. We just need a singer for it. She'd been dropped three times, so she knew this was a really great opportunity, and she took it and became very famous and Teenage Dream and all of that. It's not really her true self, and so she struggled. You can see her struggling in her career a bit. When she put out Prism was a little bit more who she really is, but it didn't do as well because it was a deeper record, and people knew her for the fluff. They knew her for that pop stuff, so she wasn't able to transition. Kind of like a child actor not being able to transition. It's tricky. It has to be done very well. Now there could have been a way to do it in the sound, because we get into the details of the sound. A lot of it has to do with what's happening in music because the foundation, the bass and the drums really change as we move through time. For example, Mark Ronson with Amy Winehouse. Here he had this obviously brilliant singer and writer, but just a brilliant jazz singer, rough and edgy and just a sound we hadn't really heard, right? But in the making of the Back to Black Record, he was able to create a vintage throwback style, but he up leveled or upgraded or updated the bass and drums to have more modern sounds so that it fit in the framework of today. I talk about: you want to be relevant today, but rooted in the past, and that's where that whole journey into your listening history and all of that. Where are the roots, and then where is the relevance for today? I was just listening to an artist that put out a song that sounded very 70’s, but that wasn't her intention. It just kind of ends up that way because you're working with a producer, and then if it's not going exactly the way, then you're tweaking, or you're trying to reach it, but we do creative briefs for producers ahead of time, fully outlined, and that's their template to then add their creativity to. But the direction is clear, and not being clear, like your example of creating that sculpture, if it's not clear enough, you're not defining your taste and your aesthetic for people to be able to identify who you are and whether they can select themselves as a fan. It's important to find yourself, to find your sound and direction, and find your message and who you are and what that is, in such a way that it's broad enough that it contains all the elements that you want but it's specific enough that it's easy to identify for that listener, and it's an instant yes. Because labels tend to do it from the outside-in, like with Katy Perry. They want to slap it on top: okay, we're gonna get it all ready and then we just need the singer and then we're gonna do that. In Prince's case, good example, he would make these great albums, come to the label, and they'd be like; Nah, not really. And he'd just be like: what the F*** are you talking about? That's my whole life, and no, there's a better way. There's a better way. There's a process that you can go to where the artist is respected and heard and listened to and curated.

Michael: Good stuff. I feel like that analogy of being rooted in the tree fits so well with artists kinda discovering who they are and the power, the connection, the authenticity, the congruence that comes when you kind of find those strong roots, as opposed to trying to plant a seed somewhere else.

Cari: Or follow a trend, right, but then end up chasing the trend. I talk about there's a pendulum in music where our tastes are swinging a little bit this way, then it's going that way, right? And when a new sound hits, we all get really excited and then we kind of want to bring that in, but then by the time our stuff gets out in a substantial collection because, I don't know, singles are good in between collections, but you still need an album. Big artists still release albums for reasons. They need to tour as well, but it's still something for people to sink their teeth into, and we need that, and that's why just releasing endless singles is not a good idea.

Michael: That’s okay. This is fantastic. So, it's clear that through the +40 years of experience, through all the artists that you've worked with, that you've really developed an incredible process for helping to peel back the onion and get to the heart of who the artist is and what makes them unique and helping them unveil their identity. So I know that containing that entire process into a very short interview is very hard to do.

Cari: Yes.

Michael: I'm curious, if you had to share one question that you feel like is one of the most valuable questions that an artist that's here right now can kinda reflect on that can help to get them move in the right direction, what one of your favorite questions is to ask the artist for them to do that work? 

Cari: If no one was listening, what music would you make?

Michael: I just got goosebumps. 

Cari: Yeah. I was on a call with Simon Tam, who works with a lot of Asian artists, and we had a great workshop night, and one of the Asian artist, but American-born, he said: I really struggle because of the way I look, people expect a certain kind of music, and I was born in the South, and I love country. He was talking kinda Leonard Skinner music; Southern rock kind of. What do you think? And I just looked at him and I said: My dear, your eyes lit up like a Christmas tree when you started talking about the sound. Why not be the first? And he's just this big smile because your natural instincts are trying to lead you, but you're cutting them off because you think that you need to change yourself to be successful or to fit the model. All of these people we were talking about today didn't. They broke the model. They didn't fit the model paying attention to what their instincts are. Your instincts are your artist integrity, but you do need to have a very high level of craft and artistry to really attain that well, because if you just send the artist off: yeah, just be yourself and everything will work out. Not really. It's a little more cultivated and curated than that.

Michael: Awesome, well Cari, this has been a really fun conversation. I appreciate you sharing the experience and lessons that you’ve learned over the past 40 years. I know at the time of recording this, that you're preparing an upcoming challenge and a resource for artists, and I know that this is the kind of thing that you have lots of resources and things that you're sharing all the time, but if someone does happen to be listening to this right now at the right time, I'd be curious, one, how they can, maybe a better question, because I do want to make sure that someone's listening to this 3 months from now or 6 months from now that they can also find their way to the resources that you’ve created, but maybe you can share a little bit more about what's the best place for people to go to dive deeper, and for someone does happen to be listening to this right now and there's the challenge, can you share a little bit more about that?

Cari: Absolutely happy to. Anyone can just reach out at any time to info@caricole.com, just the email from our website, and set up an artist discovery call, and we can walk you through anything and talk you through kind of all of that, because I think one of the problems is: there really are 2 lanes, but when you go to the website, it's like, Oh my God, where do I start? We're actually working on a “start here” page. But I'll start with the free stuff because I think that's just the easiest way. There's really two lanes here: One is artist development and one is vocal. My 38 years as a vocal coach and a vocal arranger on some big records as well. Vocal arranging is something we really didn't talk about today, but it's extremely important and all big records have vocal arrangers. So there's two levels or 2 tracks. So for artist development, we have the Step Up to the Spotlight which is a 6-module artist development program, and there's a free 10-day trial and you could literally come on in, spend a weekend, because you get full access to the full program and go through the whole thing. You could! We used to give it free, so I don't mind saying that. It talks about our other programs in it as well, so you get a really full understanding of the process that we use. It really is stepping up your voice, your music, your songs, your brand, your artist plan, and your development, and really finding that unique artist identity is all wrapped up in a bow inside that course. And then the other is, on the vocal track. There's also the Signature Songwriting Circle where we do the A&R process with you. We run that once a year, usually in the summer. This year we're doing it in August, so you'll find all that information on the site. I do have a coupon for you guys for this other thing that I'll talk about. So there's the Step Up to the Spotlight, the 6-module program, and that's a free 10-day trial, and you can just pop in and do that. For the vocal we have a free 4-day Better Voice Challenge workshop. This workshop is for you to really come and spend 4 hours and 4 consecutive days with me for free, and we walk through how to actually unlock your voice, decrease strain, and increase volume, and sound, and power without pushing for you to really understand these biomechanical movements that are actually going to open up your voice. And then that moves you into the vocal freedom circle, if that's something that you want to do or you come and learn my method. In that challenge with the discount, we're happy to give you guys the discount, it's under $397, and you pay like $100. I think there are payments under $100 as well, but that you learn the entire method. So the free things are Step Up to the Spotlight, 6-Module Program, and the Better Voice Challenge Workshop, where you can come and work with me for free.

Michael: All right. Fantastic. Well, like always, we’ll put the links in the show notes for easy access, but Cari, it's been a great connecting with you today. I can understand now why so many people were telling me that we needed to connect. So I appreciate what you're doing and for you taking the time to be here on the podcast today.

Cari: Well, thank you so much for having me, Michael. It's been a pleasure.

Michael: Yeeeaaaah. Hey, it’s Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today, and if you want to support the podcast then there’s a few ways to help us grow. First if you hit ‘subscribe’ then that’s make sure you don’t miss a new episode. Secondly if you share it with your friends, on social media, tag us - that really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review it’s going to help us reach more musicians like you take their music to the next level. The time to be a Modern Musician is now, and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.