Michael Walker: If you’re listening to this then you likely already know that being an independent musician is a lonely road. And maybe your friends and your family just don’t fully understand why you do what you do, or why you invest so much time, energy, and money towards achieving your music goals. And especially early on, it can be hard to find people who really understand what you’re trying to accomplish and how to make it happen. So, that’s where Modern Musician comes in!

My name’s Michael Walker and I can understand and relate to that feeling. I’ve been there myself, and so has our team of independent artists. The truth is that basically everything good in my life has been a result of music. It’s the reason I met my wife, it’s why I have my 3 kids, it’s how I met my best friends. And now with Modern Musician, we have seen so many talented artists who started out with a dream, with a passion, but without really a fanbase or a business and be able to take that and turn it into a sustainable full-time career and be able to impact hundreds, thousands, or even millions of fans with their music. We’ve had thousands of messages from artists who told us we’ve helped change their lives forever. It just gets even more exciting and fulfilling when you’re surrounded by a community of other people who get it, and who share their success and their knowledge with each other openly. So, if you are feeling called into making your music a full-time career and to be able to reach more people with your music, then I want to invite you to join our community so that we can help support your growth and we can help lift you up as you pursue your musical dreams. You’ll be able to interact in a community with other high-level artists, coaches, and industry professionals, as well as be able to participate in our daily live podcast, meet these amazing guests, and get access to completely free training. If you’d like to join our family of artists who truly care about your success, then click on the link in the show notes and sign-up now.

Martin Sutton: Write with your heart, but then edit with your brain. Think about the listener. Think about the people that are going to be consuming your music and consider what they might want to hear when they listen to your music. I'm not talking about compromising your art. I'm talking about making it better, improving it, finding ways that you can edit it and make it stronger. 

Michael Walker: It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology, and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician and it's only getting better. If you have high-quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

Alright, I'm excited to be here with the one and only Martin Sutton. Martin is a songwriter, record producer, mixer, and songwriting coach and mentor. He's written for many multi-platinum artists worldwide, including artists like LeAnn Rimes, Celine Dion, Backstreet Boys, just to name a few. After 6 years with Universal Music Publishing, Martin started his own publishing company and recording studio, and he is the founder of the Songwriting Academy, and he helps artists to work on their craft to be able to express themselves and to actually be able to reach and make an impact on the lives of people who are listening to their music. So I'm really excited to have him on so that we can talk about songwriting and how can you improve the art of… I mean, really the core of music itself is about you being able to express yourself in the songs and in a way that helps you connect with your community. Extremely important. And it's also an interesting time to be an artist in the world of AI and whatnot. Martin, thank-you for taking the time to be here.

Martin Sutton: Thank-you so much. It’s good to be here. I always love talking about songwriting. I always love talking to you as well, Michael. It's always a pleasure. Just full transparency as well, I never like to take credit for things I didn't do. I didn't write for Celine Dion. I've done orchestration and mixing, so I have worked with her, but my songwriting credits do go to Backstreet Boys, LeeAnn Rimes, and a bunch of other people all over the world in 50 different countries. So I've done a bit.

Michael: Well, I appreciate you clarifying there. I think that speaks to your character and also like: Oh yeah, I didn't write for Celine Dion, but I did the orchestration and I did write for Backstreet Boys, Leanne Rimes etc.. Amazing. So, maybe to kick things off, this isn't our first time having a conversation, but for anyone that's here right now that it is their first time connecting with you, maybe you could just share a little bit of background in terms of yourself and how you started Songwriting Academy and what you focus on. 

Martin: Sure, absolutely. So it's funny you should sort of ask for the history. It's been a while since I've been asked for my history, but I'm currently writing my second book. The first book was an odd departure as a spiritual thing which is going to come out soon. But I'm writing a book about how I started and how I got to today and I'm still breathing. I still managed to have a roof over my head, but it's called From Pennies to Platinum. That's the working title so far, but I started out as a busker on the streets literally learning songs from vinyl records, listening to them, learning by ear. I still can't read music per se. I know what chords are called, but I was just literally chord matching listening to records and went out on the streets and started singing for pennies. It was a long circuitous journey for me to get to any point where I could have some success. And it took a long, long time. I think there's that naivety when you start out that you think that you're so good that of course you'll get discovered and that's one of the biggest mistakes that any kind of artist makes these days, well any time, is just waiting to be discovered. And it didn't happen for me then and it's not happening for people now that are waiting to be discovered. You've got to get out there. You've got to get in front of people and be known. But I was clueless. I went from singing on the street to singing in bars and pubs in the West End of London, and for a very short period of time, I just lost hope and had a “grown-up job” for about 2 years. And then quit. I had an epiphany and thought: I have to pursue my heart. I have to follow my dreams and quit my grown up job as a European marketing manager for an exhibition company, and started at ground zero, Michael. And I know you know what that feels like where you don't know anyone, you don't know anything, you have no idea how the business works. All you know is that you love making music. And that's where I started out 30 years ago. I just networked like crazy and just wrote with everybody I could. What I like to call myself a songwriting slut. If you would write with me, yeah, I'm in. I managed to start working my way up; climbing out of the well, sort of diagonally, one foot at a time, gradually working up better and better songwriters. Eventually, got my very first song recorded by a major label artist. Took a couple of years of just consistently going at it. And I very nearly quit again. Thankfully Pam Shane, who's a dear friend of mine, who wrote Genie in a Bottle and loads of other huge hits, she convinced me to keep at it and said: if you love it, just keep doing it. And you probably know how this feels, Michael, where you think you're doing everything right. You think you're making good music, you think you're making good records, you think you know enough people, but somehow, it just doesn't seem to be happening. And I bet loads of people that are watching this know how that feels to just think: well, what is it? What am I missing time? Time! We do this. If we do it for the right reason, we never quit because we're making music because we love doing it. So just give it time. It's a marathon, not a sprint. And I got my first cut, and then gradually I got more and more. And then I started having bigger artists recording my songs, and I fell into teaching songwriting. Somebody said: Hey, can you do a course on… can you show my kids at school how to write a song? And then I started doing these little courses and it grew and it grew. And then people said: Hey, can we go somewhere on a retreat and all write together? So I started doing that. And then 10 years ago, it'll be 10 years this October, I started the Songwriting Academy (TSA). And I thought that I was creating an organization that would show people how to write better songs. What I didn't realize was that within six months, people would be calling themselves the TSA family. And we created something way, way more than that where people of all experience levels feel safe. And it's so important to me that there isn't a qualifying exam to do what you're passionate about. And that comes from our side where we treat everybody as individuals. So, Michael, I know you've had a ton of experience, but somebody might come to me and say: I've never written a song before. Somebody actually did say this to me. She said that she'd survived breast cancer twice, and she'd always wanted to make music, but she'd never written a song. And she joined the Songwriting Academy and within three months, she was playing her first song in a West End theatre stage to a whole audience of people! She had this thing come true for her. But you have to treat someone like that differently to the way that if you came to me and said: Hey, Martin, I don't normally do K-pop, but I'd love to go into this market. And so it's like: okay, well look, let's look at where you’re at now, and what you need to achieve your goals. So I'm a massive believer, this goes back to my old hippie roots that I was talking about before we got on the call, that you treat everybody as a person, as an individual person, and you find out where they're at in their life, you find out where they want to be, and then you help them draw as straight a line as possible between those 2 points. As opposed to: here's a blanket course, everybody go and watch this, you'll be fine. Which is nonsense for songwriting, because everybody has different experience levels, different abilities, different passions, different genres and different journeys. So you've got to get under the skin of people and find out what it is that they truly want, and then try and help them on their way. I think that's why we've lasted as long as we have because we give a damn. We genuinely want to help people. And I'm proud to say, at the end of last year, we opened up a completely free community for everybody to just come and join and we have meetups every month where we encourage people to just say “hi” to each other and collaborate and get together outside of that meetup and go set up collaborations and co-writes and come together and make great music. Again, going back to my hippie roots, I just want to help people all over the planet come together, make great music, and have people experienced to help them on their journeys. That was the short answer. [both laughing]

Michael: Oh man, that is awesome. I mean, that's what music's all about, right? It's about bringing people together. It has this ability to kind of break down walls. And you mentioned this community, people from all different sorts of backgrounds coming together to create this safe space. Absolutely incredible. I also really enjoyed the way that you described how everyone is on a different place of their journey, right? The analogy that comes up when you share that is sort of like a GPS. In order for a GPS to work, you need to know what's the starting point and you need to know what's the destination that you're looking to get to. And then you can create that path, but if you don't know the starting point, if you don't have the destination, there's no true way to… like, the GPS can't work. And so it sounds like what you're saying is that what we wanted to create was a way to better match people with where they're at, with where they want to go, which seems especially important nowadays when there's an unlimited amount of information on the internet and we feel so overwhelmed. We don't know where to start.

Martin: Yeah. Yeah, completely. Just on that, a lot of people don't actually know where they want to go. You know, a lot of what we do, and probably in your organization as well, it's almost like counseling. You know, somebody might come to me and say: I want to make it in music. And it's like, well, what does that mean for you? What does it mean? Do want to write for other people? Do you want to be an artist? Do you want to stand in a pub and be applauded by your five friends in a pub and feel great about it? Or do you want to be at the front of Madison Square Garden singing to thousands? You know, what is it that you want? And it requires a thought provoking conversation either that people have with themselves, or more often I've noticed, it's about talking in our groups, in our meetups, about what you actually want. What is your destination? And at that point, that is when you're able to identify what your path has to be by first of all, knowing where you want to go. It sounds so obvious, but the GPS thing is a great analogy for it.

Michael: Yeah. The other one that comes up is Alice in Wonderland. If you don't know where you're going, then any path will take you there. You kind of have to know where you're looking to go if you want to be able to get there. I think my brain has an analogy mode, cause I feel like there's like a bunch of them coming up right now as well. The other one that I think is super relevant to this is the golf analogy. How it's like: your brain and your mind with goals can do some amazing things where if you just keep hitting it in the right direction, then even if it's not totally on point but you're moving in the right direction, then eventually you can get that little ball on in the goal.

Martin: That's what we call showing up. Here’s my analogy: I talk about the success truck. You're driving along the road, and you have no idea where your success is actually going to be in the music business. I call them the highs you can't buy. You suddenly have this amazing opportunity that you didn't plan for. And it's like a success truck; a truck hitting you from a side turning. But here's the thing, there's no pain involved. It's all lovely. But here's the thing, you've got to be in your damn car driving somewhere to get hit by the success truck. If the car's in your garage or garage as you Americans so wrongly say, then nothing's going to happen to you. You've got to be doing something, showing up somewhere, talking to somebody, saying yes to some kind of opportunity and something will happen. The universe will conspire to help you. I'm convinced of it. I know it because it's happened to me and I know it's happened to you too.

Michael: The alchemist. I love it. Great book. Awesome. One question that I have is: knowing that you've both been on an incredible journey in your own music and songwriting path, and then also working with countless artists now helping them on their paths. While everyone has their own unique journeys, their own unique stories, I'm sure that you've also seen a lot of similar patterns and similar things that come up that are sort of obstacles that are preventing them from going from wherever they're at to where they're looking to get to. So I'm curious: what some of the biggest challenges are that you see singer songwriters or just songwriters in general struggling with in today's day and age as it relates to their music?

Martin: Are you talking about songwriters or people that are writing songs that want to be artists?

Michael: Probably both. Whoever, whoever you mainly work with, what some of the biggest common challenges and or like misconceptions might be?

Martin: Sure. I think there's a global thing that could apply to all of them, and I think the biggest mistake that many people make is settling. In terms of creatively, a lot of people will write down some words, some melodies, chords, they'll put it down. They'll get to the end of that 3 minutes and fill all of the gaps and go: yeah, there you go. I've written a song. No, you haven't. You've written the first draft of a song. And I always remind people that J.K. Rowling rewrote the first chapter of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone I think it was 15 times and still got turned down by 11 or 12 publishers, but rewrote the entire chapter of Philosopher's Stone and probably the rest of the book as well. Settling is lazy, and people will create excuses for it and say things like: but that's my art. That's how it came out and so I shouldn't touch it. Well, great! If that's working for you, and you just managed to hit gold and platinum every single time you do that, happy days. If it's not, you might want to consider going back and crafting it. I'm all for the art for the authenticity. Absolutely. Write with your heart, but then edit with your brain. Think about the listener. Think about the people that are going to be consuming your music and consider what they might want to hear when they listen to your music. That doesn't mean: Oh, well, everybody wants to hear Kylie Minogue: I can't get you out of my head, but I'm not going to do that. That's compromising my art. I'm not talking about compromising your art. I'm talking about making it better, improving it, finding ways that you can edit it and make it stronger. Don't be so arrogant that you think that one draft is going to be good enough to make a hit song. I know that there are artists out there that say: Hey man, I wrote that here in 5 minutes or 10 minutes. Yeah, it can happen from time to time. But from my experience and the experience of the many, many professional songwriters that are in the faculty of the Songwriting Academy and people I've worked with outside it, we write the first draft and then we go back and we say: how can I make it better? And then we look at it after that and we go: that's much better. Now, how can we make it better? And we keep repeating that process until it is as close to “our version of perfect” as possible. And that's just the product. For people as a songwriter, then you've got to think about doing exactly the same process with making the record so it shines. And if you're the artist, then you've got to think about all of the things that you need to think about as an artist. You've got to think about branding. You've got to think about the way that you're going to present yourself to radio, the way that you're going to present yourself on social media, on your website, how you're going to collect people's information, the business side of it, all of that stuff. Don't settle. Go the extra mile, because if you don't, somebody else will. Often the people that are most successful aren't necessarily the most talented, but they damn well want it so badly that they are prepared to work when everybody else is having a beer down the pub. So don't settle. Go the extra mile, then go another extra mile, and then go another 24 until you've done the marathon. That's my advice.

Michael: So good. Yeah, I mean, it feels really relevant because I just finished reading the book Think and Grow Rich and actually rereading it. Every few years I try to come back to that one. And it talks about that idea of using your mind to create an intense desire and to really get in touch with your goals and to create motion. I'm curious from your perspective, where does that drive come from? It seems like you hear it from everyone that is achieving some major successes that they have this sense of ambition or drive. And that's what kind of creates this motion. But for someone who's maybe listened to this, who knows, deep down, they're like: I know I can do more. I know that I can. I feel like I'm not showing up fully and they'd like to go the extra mile. How do they get in touch with that? And how do they actually build that muscle, the discipline muscle to actually do what it takes?

Martin: I think it's a brilliant question. I think a lot of people want something, but they're not prepared to work for it. They're not prepared to spend extra time and/or money, invest in themselves. And investing in yourself, not just money, but time and care is one of the most important things you can do. But I think you have to list your priorities. Now, just an example, somebody might say: Hey, you know what? I don't have the time. In fact, I'm not going to say this in the first person because I only like speaking in the positive when I'm talking in the first person. But somebody may say to themselves that they don't have time to go and see a family member, for example. But if they found out that that family member had 24 hours to live, they would make time to go and see that family member. If they said that they didn't have the resources to go and collect something from the city, it might be a vinyl record that had just been pressed or something, but they didn't have the resources to go in there. But if somebody needed medicine urgently, they would damn well find the resources. They would beg, borrow whatever they could to get the resources to do something. I think at the end of it all, you just have to look at what you're truly passionate about, and assure yourself that you are passionate about it because it's never been a question for me about whether I can do something. It's more about how am I going to do it? I've never been an author, but I decided to write a book recently because I wanted to do it and I found the time to do it. Often when people say they say they don't have time to do it, what they're actually saying to themselves is that they don't want to prioritize it. Because everybody has time to do something everyday. So what are they going to prioritize? They're doing something. They're not sitting there in a vacuum out in space. They're doing something, whether it's watching TV, or whether it's playing a guitar. They're doing something. So, I just made time to write a book and then I started another one. As you know, I do the podcast as well: Hitmakers exposed. I find time to do that. I make time to do that. I make records. I've just started a sync agency. And the list goes on of things that I do because I'm passionate about all of those things. And honestly, when I shuffle off this mortal coil, I was talking about this with my partner yesterday, we both agree that just doing things is so much more rewarding in life. And when I shuffle off this mortal coil and I look back at everything that I've done, I want it to be the best movie ever. And that's why I do it.

Michael: Ah, man! That's some powerful stuff. There is something magical about the… I've heard different perspectives on the value of death and reminiscing on death. And in particular nowadays with technology and longevity medicine…. there's some people that are working very hard to make it so that they're like death; it’s an optional thing. It's a thing where we can decide when we die, as opposed to, we get older and we die with or without you know, intending to, but then on the flip side, the scarcity of life or the preciousness of life, the fact that it's going to be gone seems like it can be a super powerful motivator. And what you just shared right now, it sounds like that's something that you've personally really gotten in touch with. And maybe for all of us that are listening to this right now or watching this. How can they get in touch with that to put things into perspective so that they don't end up waiting until their deathbed and dying with their music still inside them? Do you do this regularly? Do you have a process for it or do you just try to keep it in your mind remembering that you're going to be gone someday, that you're going to die? How does someone put that on the forefront?

Martin: I don't know how the conversation went this way, but literally the book that I'm about to publish is called Conversations with Nishu, and it'll be out by the end of May. It'll be out there. And the subtitle of the book, or the subheading of the book is Unexpected Answers About Life, Time, and Death. And so, during the writing of this, I had many, many epiphanies about it. And you know, you're talking about scientists that are trying to make death an optional thing, but what people need to remember is that life is optional. You know? By Life I mean with a capital L. Living it is optional. Many people are just going through the motions, but I think everybody in their own way has to discover what their definition of living really is. Is it spending time with their family? For many people it is. Is it making music? Is it creating art? Is it making money? Discover what the meaning of living is and pursue that with everything you have, because it feels so great when you put your head down at night on the pillow, knowing that you've pursued what you were put here to do. And that may change. Firstly, you don't have to know what it is immediately, but you have to be curious enough to go look at stuff and and to be to just try things that are different and see the joy that it brings you. And that becomes addictive in itself. I have very few vices. I drink the occasional glass of red wine and tell terrible jokes is probably my worst vice. But absolutely, I'm completely caught up in living. Maybe it happens as you get older. I don't know, but I feel damn young and I'm just doing so many things. People say: how do you have the time to do it all? It's like, well, what else am I going to do with my time? What do you want me to do, sit and look at a wall? So I think for people to get in touch with it is: be curious; try things. And if you feel strongly about doing anything, then do it without hesitation. I think I read somewhere a long time ago that ninjas, when they have to make a decision, they give themselves 7 seconds to make that decision. And if they haven't made it, then they don't do it. So it's 7 seconds to say yes. I have another philosophy that I am completely stuck on and I loved to bits which is about buffalo, that when a storm is coming, many, many other animals will run away from the storm, but a buffalo will turn and run at the storm because they get through it quicker, and then it's done. If you're running away from a storm and it's catching up with you, then you're in it for longer. And so the moment I have any kind of inspiration or thought about what I want to do next, or if I have a difficult situation or a difficult conversation that’s got to be had, I just run at the damn storm, and I get it done and then I can crack on doing something else. I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a philosopher. So trying to impart any kind of meaningful advice to people about living their life would be disingenuous of me. All I can say, from my perspective, is just knowing what makes me feel alive, and knowing that life is optional. Living is optional in terms of living a joyful and peaceful life.

Michael: Hot dog! [laughing] I don't know if you say that over there. I hardly ever say hot dog. I don't even know. Must be the Mickey Mouse that the kids watch. But hot dog, dude. That's some powerful stuff. And it reminds me of the conversation we were having right before we started the interview around having kids. And for anyone that has interacted with… I think anyone watching this, you have your own experience of either having been a child or having your own children, watch them grow up and the sense of wonder and the sense of appreciation and just presence and just being connected to life; showing up. What else are we here for but to actually enjoy each moment and to recognize the preciousness of each moment? So I appreciate you bringing that up. A couple of things: 1) I'm super interested to hear more about your book. I'm looking forward to reading it personally when it comes out. And I think this is a great segue because we touched on this right before we started the interview and it sounded like there was going to be a fun discussion around… what we're talking about right now is a very, maybe, human would be a way to put it, or just very life/consciousness/awareness type of conversation. And in the midst of doing this interview, we're having a breakout moment for artificial intelligence and machine learning. I'm curious to hear your thoughts as it relates to this topic that we just talked about: the sacredness of life itself and music. Coming head to head with artificial intelligence, which you can type in a few words and it can create with udo.com, in some cases, hard to distinguish between what was created through AI versus a human. So I'm curious to hear your perspective on what does a tool like this mean for all of us as songwriters and musicians? And how does it relate to the joy and the purpose for us being here and making music in the first place?

Martin: Sure, and it's a great question. It's totally totally current and the hottest topic around probably. I should probably preempt my answer by saying that I also have a t-shirt company called FKAI.

Michael: Awesome. 

Martin: So, random plug here. FKAI.store and you can buy t-shirts with all kind of messages about AI. For me, you used the word tool. Okay. Then it's a tool. And for me it's like, if you're using AI as a power tool to access information, it's like a supercharged Google, if you like, but it can respond far more intelligently with answers to things that we want. Okay. I totally get that. You know, we've got a database on our website of like 600 hours of video content that we've filmed over the years, and it would be kind of cool to be able to access all of the information in there just by asking a question. Yeah, I get that. It would be a power tool. However, when it comes to creation, there are lines for me personally, that I would draw. Everybody can make their own decisions about it, and it makes no difference to my life what people choose to do. First of all, a lot of people are… it seems that they're quite fearful of what it means for the music business and they're using terms like: Oh, it's going to be the end of the music business and songwriters will have no place and blah, blah, blah. You know, there's always been something out there that's making music that we would aspire to be able to do. There's always been Paul McCartney and Max Martin and Ray Davis and these incredible writers that got these phenomenal track records and some people look up there and go: well, what's the point of carrying on because I'll never be that? And it's just another type of competition, if you will, in an already very flooded marketplace. But I have deeper thoughts about that. And one of which… a wonderful expression, I wish I'd written, but it was: music is what feelings sound like. There's no way that… What's always paved the way for music are the people that break the mold, not skim the barrel and make something new out of it. And it's the people that break the mold. It's the Sex Pistols, it's the Kinks, it's Elvis did the Unexpected, it's Bill Haley, it's… Well, we could name a million artists that have been mold breakers that have been ground breakers because they did something different. They released a song that everybody's going: Wow, I haven't heard anything like that before. That's totally new! And it's the innovation that comes from humans. I know that the AI models can, like I say, they can scrape the Internet and create whatever you want out of it, but, for me, I've yet to hear something that has a deep, deep authenticity to it. The whole foundation of what the Songwriting Academy is, I write from me for other people. Every song has got an authentic part of me in it that will always be a part of me. And that's what I want to leave behind for my kids, my grandkids, generations to come, that they can hear a part of me that had something genuine to say. I've got a song, funnily enough, about the brevity of life called: You Think You Have Time. I want people to hear that. I've got another song that Leanne Rimes recorded called: Everybody's Someone, which is how important everybody is on this planet. And there's little bits of my philosophies on life that are just inserted into these songs, and for me, that's what songwriting is. It's not about piecing together chords, melodies, and lyrics that are nice to listen to, that are good to listen to, that make you dance. I'm sure they have their place somewhere, but just not in my life. I've likened creating music with AI to a bionic arm. Okay. For those people that remember the six million dollar man, Lee Majors. So a bionic arm, it can lift whenever you ask it to. It can be stronger than you could ever imagine it being possible. It will do it faster, stronger. It will never tire, and you don't have to go to the gym. You don't have to go to the gym and you can lift anything you want. You can crush something in your hand, crush a rock in your hand if you want with it. But it doesn't know what it feels like to hold a child. It can't feel. It's not derived from feelings. Music for me is derived from feelings and it always will be. I believe that there will be a smaller and smaller… as it scrapes the internet looking for music to derive itself from, it will be scraping its own songs. If there are billions, probably, of songs that it's going to be creating, then it's going to turn into this ever diminishing resource, if you will, ever diminishing return. And what's really going to shine through in the music are the people that say: I'm going to do something different. I'm going to do something that nobody's ever done before. The next Ray Davis, the next Bill Haley, the next U2. You know, the people that say: I don't care what a machine can do, nothing can do what my heart can do. Nothing on this planet is as unique as everybody's individual hearts. And that's where the gold is. And that I believe is where the future is going to really lie.

Michael: Phew! That was awesome. You know, it does seem like there's a lot that goes unappreciated or at least unacknowledged just in terms of the intelligence that comes with being human; things that our bodies do without us even having to think about it. The way that we process energy and that we transform the way that we can think, or the way that our brains work, there's so much that we're doing that we don't fully understand. And it seems like it's easy to unappreciate or not acknowledge because we're so used to it, and because there are things that computers and AI are better than the smartest human at doing math. You're gonna be hard pressed to find like…

Martin: Sorry, Michael, I'm going to jump in, but none of them can feel pain, anger, fear, and love.

Michael: Absolutely. Yeah. And it's interesting. I mean, this is one of my favorite conversations because in my opinion, where we're headed with AI…. I mean, currently, right now, all robots are basically caricatures of humans, at least in terms of mimicking human emotion. They can appear pretty realistically. If you give them a prompt, right, like they can communicate as if they're feeling those things. But like you're saying, it's sort of like a memory that it's scraping and it's just different; it's different from the way that we function as humans. It doesn't have the chemicals and it doesn't have our actual sensations.

Martin: Exactly. Have you ever had your heart broken?

Michael: [pouting] Yeah, I have. It wasn't fun.

Martin: Right. Okay then. You and me, both. Nobody can write a song about heartbreak if they have not felt it and they've not felt the earth swallow them up when somebody breaks bad news to them. They don't know what that spear through your gut feels like of somebody just tearing you apart. Nobody is qualified to write about heartbreak, unless you're either sitting in a room with somebody that has experienced it and they're facilitating the song, they're helping that person write a song, or unless they've felt it themselves. And it's the same with every emotion. That's where the… We have the happy accidents that happen when we write songs, right? The things that where we accidentally put a line in the wrong place, we copy it across into the wrong place, or we say a word and somebody mishears it and you go: Oh my God, that’s beautiful! That's golden! I didn't actually say that. It doesn't matter. You know, those beautiful, happy accidents are the things that are so beautiful about songwriting. And you know what? Every song that I've had a hit with, and probably most of the songs that I've written, I can remember where I was when I wrote the darn thing. I remember the process of writing it. I remember lines where suddenly everybody in the room went: Ooh, that! That's gold! And that's the joy for me. That's the stuff I'm going to take to the other side with me when I step across the line and through the veil. It'll be all of those moments of just the absolute joy of creating something from the ether that we've that we've done over and over again. That's the joy of it. I mean why throw away the joy of something and have something else do it automatically for you? You're missing out on so much fun.

Michael: 100%. Yeah. So it sounds like the way that you're presenting is that AI, if it's used like a tool, if it's used the same way that Google is used, then it can be a really powerful tool that you can use to help express yourself and express that magic. But where it might be important to draw the line is if it's automatically creating everything without actually having the real human intention and the human experience behind it. Then it's missing an essential nature that makes music what it is. It makes it special. I'm curious, drawing that line like, where exactly do you draw that line? Cause there's maybe shades of gray. Do you use chatGPT to help brainstorm some ideas for lyric rhymes and then you choose your favorite one, or do you just have generate all the lyrics and you tweak the verse and the chorus? For you personally, if someone's here who feels the same way, and they want to use the tools that are going to allow them to express themselves in as authentic of a way as possible, how can they draw that line for themselves so that they don't lose the part that makes songwriting special?

Martin: They're going to have to make their own decisions about what they want to do, because at the end of the day, it's about personal satisfaction, and I derive the most satisfaction from creating something. Do I use a rhyming dictionary? Occasionally, yeah. I read books, and so by reading books, I'm feeding my library, if you will, by using a rhyming dictionary, I'm feeding my library with things that rhyme and they get stored for later. Do I use a Thesaurus? I still don't know what it's called. Somebody stole my thesaurus the other day, actually, and I have no words. [punny] I told you that was one of my five terrible jokes.

Michael: You got dad jokes.

Martin: So, do I use a thesaurus? Yeah, from time to time, but the actual piecing together of the words for me, I want to spend as long as it takes. And sometimes I'm on it for months trying to find the perfect line, but wow, the satisfaction when I finally find it. I wrote a song and there was 1 line that I just wasn't happy with. I spent 8 hours one day, while I was cleaning my house… Eight hours and I came up with like, 18 different versions of what that line could be, and then about 5:30 in the evening, I went: Oh, there it is! I finally found it. And it felt amazing. And, here's the thing I'm telling you about how amazing my life felt the day I found a line to a song. Now that was part of my life experience, and it was so powerful a part of my life experience that I can recall it and I can tell you how it felt. And isn't that what songwriting is about as well? It's about the journey. It's not just the making of the song, but it's the whole process of the thing. And the more you do it, the better you get, or certainly the more efficient you become. I still do write some shit songs occasionally, but you know, that's the joy for me, that gives me immense peace. So, yes, people can decide what, what lines they draw. Do I use samples in production? Yeah, I do. I try and use sample banks that pay the musicians properly for what they've done. Do I use Logic Pro X instead of recording onto tape? Yes. But I'm using it as a tool. The creativity is the making of the records that I produce is: that's me and finding things that I just love and saying: Oh, what about if we play with this? But everyone draws their own line. I'm not going to sit here and evangelize about “nobody should ever use it for anything”. It depends, again, what your definition of living is. Living for me, it's having a great time. Feeling peaceful is number one. But being joyful doing what I do is really important to me. So why would I give that to something else to do? I just wouldn't. I wouldn’t. I get so much satisfaction from doing it myself. So, but everyone can make their own call on it. I have no issue with that.

Michael: Good stuff. Well, I'm just going to go on the record and say I'm grateful that we live in a time, Martin, where I can actually connect with the real human Martin Sutton, and we can have a conversation here. And it's not just your AI that I'm talking to and you're talking to my AI, but we actually do get to connect human to human. 

Martin: Thank-you so much for having me here. I always love talking about songwriting. I love talking to you as well, Michael. It’s always a pleasure!

Michael: Yeeeaaaah.

Hey, it’s Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today, and if you want to support the podcast then there’s a few ways to help us grow.

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