Savannah Pope: What kind of music is it? A general, cross genres, that kind of thing. And then who is it for? And what do you want them to experience? When I was really just in the glam space, I was saying operatic glam rock for the oddballs and outcasts and I think because what I was saying is this is the kind of music that I have, this is what makes it different from general rock and general glam rock, even like it has a sort of specific tune to it. And then beyond that: who's it for? What does it make them feel? And I felt saying for the oddballs and outcasts made it very clear that this is for people who don't feel that they belong to have a place where they belong.

Michael Walker: It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician and it's only getting better. If you have high-quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

All right. Excited to be here today. Back with the one and only Savannah Pope. Savannah has done the podcast before. She has done a very impressive crowdfunding campaign that raised what was the exact figure that you had raised Savannah?

Savannah Pope: 62k and some change. 62K and some change. I can't remember.

Michael Walker: [sarcastically] 62 cents. 62 cents.

Savannah Pope: And 62 cents and that's it. [both laughing]

Michael Walker: $60,000. That's just amazing. She was on the podcast earlier where she actually shared a breakdown of that campaign. Today, I'm really excited to talk to her a little bit more about artist identity and branding and finding your voice and particularly, in today's day and age with social media and with the expectations for a lot of us, I've felt pressure before in terms of anxiety in terms of showing up and having our voice be heard. I know that all of us as artists, that's one of the biggest challenges that we really have to face is the pressure and anxiety and putting ourselves out there and finding out what is it makes us unique. So I'm really looking forward to connecting today. Savannah, thank you so much for being on the podcast again and for being you.

Savannah Pope: Thank you. I'm psyched to be back.

Michael Walker: Awesome. So to kick things off, I would love to just do a quick intro for anyone that maybe missed the first podcast or this first time meeting or connecting with you, could you share just a little bit about yourself and your music and what you're working on right now?

Savannah Pope: My name is Savannah Pope. I am a singer, songwriter, performer, and video artist. I do all sorts of things in service of the music. I am based in LA and at the moment, I am essentially the last time we spoke was about getting the money for the crowdfund and I've spent the last two years working on creating that album, coming up with a release plan, all of the logistical aspects and all of the creative aspects doing the music videos for it. So I have the first song and music video from the album, which is going to be called Pandemonium. It's produced by Sean Bevan, who’s a big hit maker: Nine Inch Nails and No Doubt and Three Teeth.

Michael Walker: [singing] Don’t speak. I know just what you’re sayin’. Don't tell me cause it hurts.

Savannah Pope: [singing] Dont tell me cause it hurts!

Michael Walker: There you go.. You actually kinda sound like Gwen Stefani there when you did it. I don't know what I sounded like. [singing] Don't tell me cause it hurts. Farmer Facebook singing. Oh, man. That's awesome. Gosh. What was that experience like working with that producer?

Savannah Pope: Sean? That was really cool. We got really close and he and his wife became weirdly like my surrogate parents because a lot of this came this is like right after the pandemic peak. I went up there and I just, he has this studio up in the mountains and I would just go up there for a week at a time or a couple weeks at a time and just work really hard on this record. So it was a very cool experience. How I actually got hooked up with him was really bizarre and hilarious. I was working on the first song that I wrote for the album Pandemonium which is the name of the album. The titular song. And it's this seven minute, operatic, aria influenced rock opera, basically, with a ton of different elements. It's got pop, it's got rock, it's got little bits of prog, and it's also in six languages, the backing vocals are in a bunch of different languages. So this was my opus and I was just singing it with some directions into my phone while I was writing it. And my manager at the time sent it to Sean Bevan, who's like this illustrious producer. And I was so embarrassed. I'm like, how could you share my dinky voice memo with this producer? [both laughing] What are you doing? But he really liked it. And he said: if that's what you sound like on an unpolished phone recording, then let's do this. So we started out with that song and then just developed this great working relationship and that's been really cool.

Michael Walker: Wow. That's awesome. How many songs are you recording with them?

Savannah Pope: Let's see... There's 11 on the album. And then there's also a 12th track which it's not musical. It's just my thank-you track for people who contributed at a certain level and were really involved in the crowdfund.

Michael Walker: Super cool. Was this your first time recording with a producer of that caliber? And if so, I'm curious to hear your perspective now having this experience working with a true master at their craft. Do you have any insights as it relates to all of us in terms of our own music production journey?

Savannah Pope: One of the things that I have found is that when I meet people who are really good, they don't front very much. You know what I mean? Like I've definitely met a lot of mid-level people who neg you and try to neg you and you're wanting to work with them. Which I think is just such a crappy tactic. And I didn't get any of that from Sean. Sean was very much: I really like your vision; This is about facilitating that. And to the point where he was like: let's call you a co-producer on that, on this, because you're super involved in the production process. He had a lot of humility and it was really in service of the work more than anything. So that was a very cool experience. My former engineer and producer are all very good friends with him and he's phenomenal. Yeah, obviously Sean's a legend. So it was a bit intimidating going into it for sure. Especially staying at his house. I was like: I better be on my best behavior and replace their soap or something. [both laughing]

Michael Walker: Awesome. Yeah. That's interesting seeing how success impacts different people differently, but you're the point that you brought up around when you say negging, could you describe that in a little bit more detail? Cause I think this is actually a really valuable thing to call out for all of us, even like ourselves internally. Like, where does that come from? That may be a sense of jealousy or wanting to downplay other people. It's this toxic sense of scarcity, or it's almost like an anti-success mindset that hurts both parties, when we do that versus truly wanting other people to be successful. So I'd be curious to hear a little bit more about when you talk about negging.

Savannah Pope: In the specific case that I'm talking about, I've definitely had meetings with people before where their attitude was very different. It was incredibly smug. And it was like, everything you've done is wrong. You're doing everything wrong. I can fix you, basically. And that's a very different approach than being like: I can make this voice really genuine and good. Yeah.

Michael Walker: And there's some powerful stuff in there. Like I can fix you versus you don't need to be fixed. And let's lean into what makes you special or what gives you character. It was probably a good segue to this topic, kind of idea in general of finding your voice as an artist or figuring out what that character is, what your artist identity is, other than your perspective on: What your journey has been like, you discovering that for yourself. And I know you've worked with other artists now with Modern Musician as well and helped them with their artist identity.

Savannah Pope: Yeah. I was more in the fan magnet department, but I've always gravitated towards artist identity.

Michael Walker: Did we do a fan magnet session together, Savannah? I feel like at one point I went through the program and you gave me some really great tips on artist identity. Maybe it was related to the ads, but it was certainly an artist identity thing.

Savannah Pope: I know. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's where I live more than anything. God, my journey with artist identity. Wow. That's a really good question. I guess what I would start with is: it's always changing. It's always changing. And that's something that's important to respect, and change is so scary and being an artist is already so scary that it can be a difficult thing. But I feel like the most successful and best artists really embrace that change and the shifts in their personas and careers really well. So, I triy to be adaptable in terms of what I'm feeling. For a long time, I was very much just a glam rock artist. And now with this album, and I didn't plan on it, there's just a ton of dark-pop and indie-pop and a lot of different elements coming up in it. So now: Update my artist bio, talk about different subjects, reach out to different kinds of fans. Allowing myself to evolve with that, I think has been really important rather than being like: oh, I can only be one thing. And so that's where I would start is that it's always changing. That being said, I think coming up with a sort of mission statement, and this is what I always told people when I was sneakily doing artist identity sessions within my fan magnet sessions [both laughing] is when we were coming up with a tagline for their ads. The thing that always was the most effective for me was not to be like: if you like this person… I know it works really well for a lot of people, but for my brand it didn't click. So for me what worked the best and what I always tried to help facilitate for people, if they were interested was: what makes this yours? And that is: What kind of music is it? A general, cross genres, that kind of thing. And then who is it for? And what do you want them to experience? What is it going to make them experience? Because music is, to me, I can't remember who said this, but music is: “sounds the way that we feel”. That's why it's so attractive to us. And it facilitates the processing of information and trauma and all of that. So, I think having that be an important part of your artist identity is great. So when I was really just in the glam space, I was saying: operatic glam rock for the oddballs and outcasts. And, I think because what I was saying is this is the kind of music that we have, that I have. This is what makes it different from general rock and general glam rock, even like it has a sort of specific tune to it. And then beyond that, who's it for? What does it make them feel? And I felt saying “for the oddballs and outcasts” made it very clear that this is for people who don't feel that they belong to have a place where they belong.

Michael Walker: Love it. Yeah, those questions are really the core of any product or any sort of service that you create, identifying who is this for and what's the transformation or what's the impact? What's the results? What am I doing for them? So it makes sense to really lean into that in terms of figuring out your purpose of who your music is for or what it's for. I'm curious for someone who maybe isn't totally clear on that and they're wondering: I don't know who my music is for; I don't know how to express it in the right way; do you have any tips to look within and help them to start pulling out the strings of what their mission is with their music or what kind of impact that they want to make with it?

Savannah Pope: Sure. So I would say, start by asking yourself, what do you want to feel when you listen to music? Because we generally make music that we would want other people to hear, which is really what we want to hear. So I would just start by asking yourself, what do you want to feel when you listen to music? What do you want to experience and what does it do for you? That's where I would start.

Michael Walker: Awesome. I love that. Looking within and figuring out for you personally: what do you want to hear? What do you want to feel? What do you want to experience? And do you see that as like a place that you draw inspiration from when it comes to writing the songs as well?

Savannah Pope: Yeah. Yeah, and you know what shameless plug also, feel free to put this at the front of the episode, my first single from the album Melancholic Goddess along with the music video, which I am just ravenously proud of come out on Friday which as of today is three days away, February 23rd. And yeah, so if you want to support me, check it out. We'd love to have you. We'd love to have you in the creature family.

Michael Walker: [sarcastically] We're cutting that out. Not allowed. No one can go listen to Savannah's music. Super secret! Off limits. [whispers] I'm saying that so that everyone really wants to go do it now.

Savannah Pope: Yes, there's several songs on the album. Sometimes I write and it's just me processing, like how I work through my own issues. I have to write it down and put it outside of myself and turn it into music in a way. And it almost anthropomorphizes it and then I can deal with it. But also I am oftentimes writing for what I want to hear. There's a song on the record called: live your strange. That's really… it's a really vulnerable song. It was really scary to write. And it's like an anthem for people who feel unlovable and there's just something wrong with them that can't be accepted. Ooh, sorry. I'm getting emotional. I did not expect this. What I'm saying in the song… [crying] Ooh, Michael you drew this out of me. What I'm saying in the song is that: What you feel is most broken about you is lovable and there's a place for you and I'm creating that and I want you to be there with me. I think the reason that was so important for me to write was because I never heard that when I was a kid, especially around 14/15. I had rough adolescence and, God, I just needed to know that there was a place for me that where it wasn't scary, where it wasn't too much, where I wasn't wrong, that there was a place for me. I think that's maybe one of the most powerful, they're all really powerful. Pandemonium itself, I wrote after a friend took their life. And I realized it's when we can't talk about this stuff that it eats us alive. So that was my way to be like, I'm going to talk about all this generational trauma, all of this shame, all of the things that have made me not want to share this part of myself and put it out there raw and make it as epic and weird and f***ed up as it is in my head and wild as it is in my head. And then Melancholic Goddess is another great example. It was a very different direction for me. I love this song so much. It was actually the only time this has ever happened to me: I woke up in the middle of the night and I had a poem in my head and I wrote it down in an absolute frenzy. And I was like: this says so many things that I wanted to say for years. And it just says it all. I came up with a melody for it and then I went in with Sean. And we were just like… it was really like being a kid. I've never gotten to do this in the studio. So this was great. I don't want real drums. I don't want guitar. I want to just make this as raw as it is. And cause it's really…. That song is a lot about sexism and the trauma of that and a lot of my adolescent trauma, familial trauma and this experience of trying to overcome trauma and feel powerful, but at the same time, you really want to feel loved and those can feel conflicting in a way, especially as a woman. Especially as a woman because of the way that we're supposed to present ourselves. So it was my way of embracing my power and then also putting all the vulnerability out there at the same time. So it's like a total juxtaposition. So in order to do that, I was like: let's make it completely raw. It's just me banging on stuff and stomping on things. And it was really cathartic. And then me and the women that were staying there, we just went in the booth and we made crazy primal sounds with our mouths, you know what I mean? [both laughing] It was really cathartic. It was like: the feminine spirit is in us. And that was really cool. And I think, again, that's probably what I needed to say. And also what I needed to hear, which is that I'm powerful and vulnerable, and those are both existing at the same time.

Michael Walker: Holy cow, Savannah. I'm so excited to listen to this album.

Savannah Pope: Thank you.

Michael Walker: And just proud of you for the courage and the willingness to share that. It sounds like you've done some real digging and being willing to bring up that stuff and share it and be vulnerable is scary.

Savannah Pope: And to be honest, I told you at the beginning of this call, I was scared to even come on this call because I've got this song coming out, and it's so raw to me, all of this stuff, that I've been in so much anxiety. This has been some of the most anxiety I've ever experienced. And I'm sure some of it is excitement because I love this stuff and I'm really proud of it. But yeah it's really interesting. One because it shows me that it's really important that I talked about this stuff on the record, because it's real and it faces us all the time. It's been a very raw, scary, but also beautiful and expanding experience overall, I think.

Michael Walker: I would love to hear you talk a little bit about the connection between vulnerability and music and being willing to share that. I think for a lot of us we're afraid of being fully seen or sharing. You mentioned… I love that was it “live your strange”?. That idea for a song and just that the heart behind that, I could just sense it like from you describing it. I connected with that, so I can only imagine like listening to the song, what I'm going to feel, but there's something to that idea that the things that we feel like are broken about us, the things that we're so scared of revealing or being seen in a lot of cases can actually be a part of what makes us unique and beautiful and being willing to share that, I know for a lot of people, is extremely challenging. So what would your advice be for artists who are maybe wrestling with that same thing where they're feeling like: Oh man, like this feels really vulnerable, I'm scared of talking about this or sharing this or giving a voice to this and is there a time when maybe there are things that you shouldn't share it like you're like oversharing or is that a false limitation? And how do you distinguish between that?

Savannah Pope: All really good questions. And, the honest answer is: I'm still figuring all that out. We all are. Especially in an age of social media where everything's so immediate. And you can basically put all of yourself out on a slab. It's definitely possible to overshare. And it's also, I think, important. Look, everyone's going to be different. Some people, they just put it into the music and that's how they're vulnerable. And if they can't talk about it, then I totally understand. For me, I've just never been good at compartmentalizing. I just am not a person who can do that. I would be a terrible man in the fifties. I couldn't have a mistress, you know what I mean? [both laughing] I just, yeah. So I think for me it works and that being said, it's a tricky line, you're always playing with it and seeing what you're comfortable with. Seeing what makes sense for you, but there are certain things that are precious to me that I don't talk about, or I don't talk about until I'm ready. And I get to control that narrative. That's actually a powerful thing about personal information is getting to choose when and where you say it. So for instance, making an album about it, I was really scared to talk about all of this stuff. But in a way I'm controlling the situation. It's not like someone's being like: Hey, she's mentally ill. Instead I get to be like, yeah: I deal with mental illness. And here's the complexity around that and the nuance and there's definitely some empowerment in that process. But there's also a ton of different things that people wouldn't be comfortable sharing or wouldn't be comfortable sharing at that time and I respect that. I have plenty of things that I'm like: eventually I might rule this out, but I don't know how to frame it yet. I don't know how to own it yet. So I haven’t.

Michael Walker: Yeah, totally makes sense. That was a very honest answer to acknowledging this is an evolving process. And it's like what you mentioned with the artist's identity, too, just recognizing that who you are isn't something that's set in stone and we're changing. We're evolving over time.

Savannah Pope: Yeah.

Michael Walker: I'm curious as it relates to going deeper into this idea of using music as a vessel as almost like a healing modality that you can use to process through your own emotions. I think a lot of us as artists, even if we don't think about it that way or use it that way, healing is actually a really good word for it. We're connecting with our source or who we are, that kind of universal intelligence. I'm curious, from your experience, getting in touch with that and using music as a healing modality while respecting that everyone has a right to their own narrative and sharing when the time is right. Is that something that you would encourage artists to lean into for themselves is, at the very least, like expressing that music to themselves without necessarily sharing it, or what's your relationship with, as songwriting and once you start to tap into that artist identity, how do you recommend the artists find the gold within themselves? Cause in a lot of cases, it is that stuff. It's the scary stuff. It's the stuff that is juicy. It's juicy. And that actually, it's like a slingshot, like there actually is a lot of value if, and when you're ready to face it and use it as a healing tool. So I'm curious what you'd recommend for artists to be able to channel that.

Savannah Pope: Yeah. Hmm. This is probably gonna sound a little judgmental, but the answer in my opinion is to be a good songwriter and to learn how to become a good songwriter if you're not there yet. And to me, and obviously there are gonna be different definitions for different people, but to me what makes a great songwriter is someone who can show, not tell. So there are plenty of lyrics where… I spend a lot of time on my lyrics. My lyrics are very important to me and there are plenty of lyrics I have even on this album… There's Easter eggs in there that people wouldn't know and it's not stuff that I'm ready to talk about yet, but it addresses it and it lets me process it because what we're dealing with is allegory. My favorite literary genre is magical realism. And that's because you get the sense of: “This is just life. This is the way it is”. But you also get to process things that otherwise would be completely unpalatable by putting a level of fantasy in that. For instance, here's a great example: There's a book called “Tropic of Orange”. It's not like a super well known book. It's agreat magical realism book based in LA though. And there's a a part in it and it slowly gets more and more bizarre, but mostly it feels like it's very grounded in reality. And there's a part in it where there's a sexual assault, but it's all told in terms of these ancient… because it takes place in Mexico. This part takes place in Mexico, these sort of like ancient Mexican gods. But like one is a very phallic representation. The other one's like a Jaguar. You wouldn't necessarily know exactly, but once you… It totally captures the feeling of it and you're able… like you read the passage, and it's definitely a disturbing passage, but it's removed from reality enough that you don't know until you get to the end of it and understand the emotions that you just went through, that just helped you process this thing that otherwise, if you just said it, if you just stated it plainly, it might be too much.

Michael Walker: Super interesting. Yeah. Like showing, not telling, and actually getting in touch. It is possible to disconnect from our feelings and to think about something or talk about it or process it without actually really connecting with it. So it sounds like part of what you're suggesting is that if you can really step back into your craft and use your song as a way to channel how you're feeling, then that can be a way that you can even, in some ways, more truly express the trauma or to truly express the feeling without even necessarily having to say exactly: This is what happened. If you're not ready to talk about it or share a story, you can still use that as a healing experience that resonates and expresses that feeling, but in a way that's maybe more safe.

Savannah Pope: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, also a way that is healing because… I have a couple of friends who've done certain kinds of trauma therapy and they've told me like, they take a beta blocker beforehand so that you don't re-traumatize yourself when you're talking about certain things. And to me, it's like that. It's like that level of allegory is the beta blocker. It just removes it just enough that I can face it and talk about it. But there's a little bit of safety because part of the healing is, like I said earlier, is getting to frame the narrative in a way that works for you.

Michael Walker: Awesome. Savannah, thank you for coming on here and being brave enough to like, to share, your truth of what you're experiencing right now. It’s a very normal thing with such an amount of love and detail and energy that you've put into this, and now you're getting ready to share this song that's going out on Friday, which I can't wait to listen to this and the full album. So thank-you for having the courage to really step into who you are and share your voice.

Savannah Pope: Thanks for crying with with me on your podcast. [both laughing]

Michael Walker: It does not happen very often, but when I, gosh, when I experienced something so authentic, I can just feel your heart. And it's such a beautiful concept for the song too. I think I personally can relate with that. I think all of us can relate with that. But what came to mind was Steve Jobs talking about “think different”, and the “square pegs not fitting in the round holes”. But I think there's a universal truth to that idea that the things… We have this opportunity to express ourselves in a unique way that's different and “living your strange”, it was just a beautiful way to articulate that. And I'm starting to ramble here, so I'm gonna pull myself back, but I'm really excited to listen to the songs.

Savannah Pope: Thank-you.

Michael Walker: And for anyone that's listening to this right now who's also interested in checking out the music, what would be the best place for them to go to listen to the songs, check it out and to support you as an artist?

Savannah Pope: I would say for listening, follow me on Spotify or Apple music, your favorite listening streaming service. It's always better to follow an artist there than just add a song because then you get the new stuff coming in and I just think it's a much better way to experience music. And it's helpful for the artist too, because then they get to share more with you. And then I'm probably most active social media wise on Instagram. My handle there is IamSavannahPope. Savannah, like the city in Georgia; Pope, like the dude in the Vatican, even though I'm Jewish, I don't know what's going on.

And then, I really love my email list. I can be a little old school, but email lists are a fantastic way to be in touch with fans and get them things that other people… have them be a part of a community that's not as public as social media and all of that. If you go to my website, which is savannahpopemusic.com, there's a sign-up form for my email list. And that's always a great way to get into the community and become a part of the family. I respond to all my emails and messages and everything.

Michael Walker: Savannah, it's always a pleasure talking with you. Thank you for coming on and sharing the excitement and sort of the feelings that are happening leading up to this release, and I can just tell how much energy and love you've put into it. And I can imagine how exciting and scary the feeling is right when it's getting ready to go out. I'm personally here for you. All of us are here for you, cheering you on. And so if there's anything that we can do here, or the team can do here to support you in your release, just reach out and let us know. And I would highly encourage anyone that hasn't yet, to go check out Savannah's music because it's amazing. And it's certainly the authenticity and the uniqueness… Your voice really cuts through. And so I appreciate you being a part of our family, being a part of our community and sharing your story here.

Savannah Pope: I'm so happy to be a part of the family. Thank you so much, Michael. 

Michael Walker: Yeeeaaaaah. Hey, it’s Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today, and if you want to support the podcast then there’s a few ways to help us grow.

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