ill Factor: I tell everybody that from the get go, I'm not here to give you a prescription. You're coming to me with a headache and I'm not going to give you the Tylenol. I want to find out the root cause of that headache. Is it your diet? What's going on? I don't teach nutrition, but I'm using that analogy to sense that a lot of people are coming to me and say: okay, now that I'm here, tell me what I need to do. And I'm like, sorry, this is not a glorified Google search. That's not what this time is. This is me identifying why you think that is going to be the winning ticket for you. And I want to help. I want to help you know how to learn, not tell you what to learn.

Michael Walker: It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician and it's only getting better. If you have high-quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

 All right. I'm excited to be back here today with my good friend, ill Factor.

ill Factor: What's going on, y'all? 

Michael Walker: What's up, man. iIl Factor is a Grammy award music producer. He's worked with Justin Timberlake, Tygo, Sia, Gwen Stefani, Assassin's Creed Syndicate, Just Dance, many more. He's the founder and CEO of beatacademy.com which helps provide mentorship for artists who are looking to level up their music production. And so he is definitely an example of someone who walks the walk, his productions are incredible. And what he's created with Beat Academy is also top of the line, really the premier platform for helping artists like you to be able to improve their music production. So Ivan, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today.

ill Factor: My pleasure. I put you, I was only here for the yeah cam. So I'm good. I'm ready to log off. [both laugh]

Michael Walker: Okay, cool. We're probably good. Yeah. We can click stop record. We'll give you one more YEAAAHHH.

ill Factor: That's it. We’re done

Michael Walker: All right. Hope you guys enjoyed the podcast today. [both laughing]

[singing] The hills are alive

and now 30 minutes of performance.

Awesome. Well hey, man. Maybe just for anyone who, this is their first time connecting with you, maybe you can do a super quick intro of how you discovered how you became an award winning music producer and started mentoring other artists.

ill Factor: Who am I? Yeah, man, even just you listing off the accomplishments, it is a humbling experience of what a blessing it is to be able to produce music for a living. I've been doing this for the past almost 22 years now. My last nine to five was 22 years ago. So I've been producing music and there's been many ups and downs, even some sideways and things like that, curveball’s thrown around… but mentorship was one of the biggest catalysts of change or what dramatically shifted going from doing this as a hobby to a career. And realizing the importance of mentorship, having people come alongside, invest. and helping me avoid major pitfalls and things like that really allowed me to see not only the value for myself, helping me to value who I am and what I was able to do and creatively bring to the table, but also just to know and identify what next steps I need to take. And so knowing that mentorship was having such an immense impact in my life. I wanted to create a platform that allowed that same thing to happen for many others. So I created Beat Academy, right? So I've been producing music for a while. I'm still doing it. I was part of a Grammy winning project about nine months ago, the Latin Grammys for a group called Monsieur Periné. And I'm still doing that, still being involved. But what I'm really excited and passionate about right now in this season of my life is investing in and pouring into others, those who are serious about their music and their craft. And I want to disrupt the music education space. Like no one should be walking away with a $60,000 student debt loan to learn how to produce the music they're passionate about making. So I want to go into the nuances and just produce, but also inspire and mentor. So yeah, that's what Beat Academy is for.

Michael Walker: Amazing. Yeah. It definitely seems like mentorship is one of the most important factors and so many successful musicians and careers. In fact, it's like part of our DNA as humans is both to be mentored and also at a certain point to be a mentor to others as well. There's that hero's journey framework with Joseph Campbell and it's basically: if you look at every hit, movie or story like it almost always comes back to this hero's journey. And there's a part of the story where the hero enters this new world. So like they have this old life like Harry Potter: He has his normal life that sucks. He's living under a staircase. Then there's this new world they enter, they leave the old world, they come to the new world. And then there's always some sort of mentor; there's always someone that kind of helps them on their journey, whether it's Dumbledore or it's Yoda or 

ill Factor: Gandalf!

Michael Walker: And so I know from experience in my own life that mentorship has been extremely important. And we wouldn't be here right now if it wasn't for my mentors. And I've heard it from so many of the most successful people that I've learned from as well, that they all had their own version of that mentor. So I think it's really amazing that you're providing that mentorship to other people now and that you've experienced the benefits of it yourself. Maybe we could talk a little bit about that. I think for a lot of us what one good question would be when we're looking for personal growth, and maybe you were trying to figure out how to be successful, whether it's with music production or, in a different, domain in their life how do you personally look at mentorship and finding the right mentors and surrounding yourself with people that can help you reach the next level?

ill Factor: Yeah, that's a good question. It doesn't necessarily always have to find somebody who's leagues ahead of you. Mentor can just be somebody who's maybe just a couple steps aheadbut heading in the direction that you would like to go in. Just someone even a couple steps ahead of you is a great advantage of pulling you up rather than just expecting… I can't reach for the Steven Spielbergs so just get Steve who lives down the block, who's been there a while and he can really help guide you in the next couple of steps. And so it could very well look like many of those Steve's in many different seasons of your life. Many people who are coming alongside you, investing and helping you, and pouring into you. The bedrock of all that is really nurturing the relationship, right? Because even at an early stage of my career, I thought: how can I get the most out of this person so I can step on them and get to where I want to go to next? And I wasn't treating people like people, I was treating them as just prizes, right? Or pedestals; like yeah: give me this and open the door for me so I can go run through it. And I think that was just the wrong way of looking at those opportunities. So I tell a lot of people in my mentorship program now: I'm not your teacher. The music you're making is your teacher. The music you're making is your teacher. That's what you're learning. I'm helping you get out of your own way. So at the end of our time together, we're not looking at each other as teacher and pupil, we're equal collaborators on the journey of making music together. That's my end game for anybody entering the program cause I'll have people tell me like, Oh, okay, so what compressor should I use? What's the EQ I should use? I don't care. And they're like, what? You don't care. And then we spend the next 30 minutes doing therapy as to why! “My parents never believed in me, and that was like the reason why they have trouble using the right EQ”. I was like, whoa. And I think that's really the sign of that. There's a difference, right?

Mentoring is just someone willing to actually dispense the wisdom they've gained throughout the years of their experience. I think somebody like a coach is really just cheering you on helping you get that next step, and then a teacher is just giving you the grammar of letting you know what skills you need to learn to get there. All that can be wrapped into one and it really depends on you. I could really use help having someone teach me some of the skills. Okay, get somebody who can teach you that, right? You don't need somebody who's had many accolades, but they're able to transmit and teach in a way that really makes sense for you. That's important. But being able to pour into you through the years of wisdom so that you're avoiding major pitfalls… there's a tremendous value there. So what was your question? [both laughing]

Michael Walker: I don't remember the exact question, but you answered it extremely well. I love the points that you made how a mentor doesn't necessarily have to be the most successful person in the world. And it's actually counterintuitively in some cases, they wouldn't be the best mentor to you because in some cases they're so far disconnected; They're so far in a different realm right now that they actually don't know what the next step is for you. In some cases actually finding the right mentor, that's not like 10,000 steps ahead, but actually can help you take that next step is extremely valuable and more accessible.

ill Factor: Absolutely, man. That's such a valid point, just because someone's on the top of the mountain doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be a great mountain guide, right? You have to understand it's all nurturing that relationship. Some people I've met along this journey that are on top of the mountain, they're like, “do you know how hard it was for me to get here?” Why should I make it easier for you?” And I'm like: okay, I'm not going to have that guy lead me to where I need to go. And that's how some people are. They've been abused, jaded, and battered so viciously on the way to where they got, that they feel like they owe it to no one to help them. They feel like their means of caring for people is: you need to get just as bruised and battered as I did. I was like: okay I'm not cut from that cloth. I'm like: sucks for you, bro, that stinks that you've had to go that route. But there is something so amazingly beautiful when you grab a hold of: it's better to give than it is to receive. There's something that unlocks so much there that I've been able to see come to life over the past recent years. So yeah. Michael Walker: Amazing. The other point that you brought up that really resonated was about how the role of a mentor and in many ways, isn't always giving you all of the answers or telling you: this is exactly the way it is. But by actually asking you questions to help you go within yourself and acknowledging that this already exists within you that just needs to be nurtured and grown. But it's not something external or something that needs to be fixed in most cases its actually: this is about your journey and this is about you looking within and growing and that's a really powerful thing to be able to do for someone.

ill Factor: That’s huge. It is so big. Like I had a call with my mentor group last week and somebody just joined in the program and they're like okay: so what should I do here? And a lot of times I am not giving you prescription. I tell everybody that from the get go, I'm not here to give you a prescription. You're coming to me with a headache and I'm not going to give you the Tylenol. I want to find out the root cause of that headache. Is it your diet? What's going on? I don't teach nutrition, but I'm using that analogy to sense that a lot of people are coming to me and saying: okay, now that I'm here, tell me what I need to do. And I'm like, sorry, this is not a glorified Google search. That's not what this time is. This is me identifying why you think that is going to be the winning ticket for you. And I want to help. I want to help you know how to learn, not tell you what to learn.

Michael Walker: Awesome. Yeah. That's beautiful. So talking about music production, clearly you're someone that… not only have you experienced, success in your own career, but also you experience success and helping translate that and helping other people grow in their music production. And so maybe we can start with: what do you see as the most common patterns or the common things that come up that get in the way of someone being an amazing music producer or someone being able to grow and learn. What are the biggest challenges and mistakes that you see artists making at first?

ill Factor: I'll break that into two answers. We'll go with the mindset, mental stuff, and then the actual practical. I don't like living in the woo space… bumper car sticker stuff. Mindset stuff and some practical stuff. I think the mindset stuff is that I think currently right now when we have a wealth of knowledge, that's so accessible when you can just type in Google or YouTube and just be like, okay, how do I make that Skrillix base line? Okay, great. Got it. With this connection of ease and access of information, there's this assumption that because it was so easy to attain, success with that knowledge should also be easy to produce. And there's a disconnect there. It's yeah, the guy who's teaching you how to make the Skrillex baseline probably either learned it from another, but at some point somebody was able to get that and wrestle with that for a long time. And in that wrestling is what really nurtured them to take that next step forward. And so a lot of people are coming with this discontent mindset of: I gave it a try, it's not working and it's really hard and it should be as easy. The last Instagram post that was promoted told me that if I wanted a million fans, all I had to do is X, Y, Z, right? There's this misconception of: Oh, you mean this thing takes a lot of work. Yeah, it does. So there's that. And what that tends to do for the artist wanting to produce their music is it puts this unneeded pressure and burden in their music making process that suffocates and removes all the oxygen from the room of their creativity. And if they could just remove that and just embrace the thousand sloppy, crazy songs that just come out and really just get lost in that process again, they'll find that the joy from and delight of making music again in that process will overflow to meet the targets they're trying to hit. I hope that makes sense. So I'm just coming across a lot of people who have just being disillusioned, discontent because I thought it was going to be really easy because I was able to access all this information. I got all the blueprints. You're helping a lot of artists work smarter, not harder. That's awesome. Hey, if I can show you the way to build a fan base and do all these things, then why are you going to go solo and try to figure it out on your own? I'm going to show it to you. There's wisdom to applying all that and that's what's amazing about being able to produce music in this day and age where people can walk around with their phones and make music to have access to everything. But the hangup is when they assume because of the ease of access, there should also be an ease of output. That's the mindset stuff.

Michael Walker: Can I just speak to that really quick? I feel like that's so powerful of a lesson. If I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like what you're suggesting is one of the biggest issues is the wrong expectation going into it, thinking that it should be just like instant; that as soon as you start, you just get it and everything is perfect. When you the truth is that there's a process and there's time involved and there's commitments and nurturing, it's like planting a tree and it's not like you plant the tree and immediately it's blossoming fruit and it's all flowing, but there's a process that involves commitment and time and showing up and nurturing it in order for the fruit to fall. On the flip side of that, what are you seeing that artists have the best results or the most successful… How do they approach that mindset and how do they usually show up on a day to day basis? What's their expectation?

ill Factor: I think the successful ones, the opposite of that are those who have those expectations closer to reality so that there's actually less room for disappointment between those two bridge points. And so they're like: man, if I'm just learning how to make music right now, I'm not expecting to get millions; I'm not even expecting to get the Grammys or have anything sold. That's cool. So when you have a sober assessment of your expectations, closer to the reality, you're not a disappointment and you're actually enjoying the process a lot more. So the stress and burden that's being placed on that whole process isn't really there. And so you continue to grow and you continue to mature in that aspect. And you're like: okay, now you can look back and you can listen to your older demos and you can listen to all the beats and stuff that you used to make and be like, man, I'm not where I used to be, but I'm definitely not where I want to be, but I can see the growth, right? And I think that's it. I think that sober assessment. There is a reality to the hunger and any strong ambition that's desiring to be.. not the sense of “this music thing has to work out”. I'm not saying walk around and pretend that the lotto ticket that you have is going to be the winning one. There's a combination. There's a good balance of that. You should have a drive because if it's like “whatever, all right”, then obviously it's not going to work out. So if there's a healthy ambition tied to expectations closer to reality. I think that's a really good blueprint for moving forward and making the most out of every opportunity. There's going to be work that you're going to have to put in, but what's great is: you can put in the work and you can take advantage of frameworks and things that are in place, whether it's Modern Musician, whether whatever we're doing at beatacademy.com, like you can take advantage of those things and then you can say man, what a blessing, like this stuff is already laid out and I just have to now do the work and walk in it. There's where that ambition starts to hit the road, like the rubber meeting the road there. Does that make sense? That's on the mindset stuff.

Michael Walker: Oh, yeah, I just wanted to +1 what you're saying. It seems like what you're suggesting is that having expectations that are… You let go of your expectations more and you just take things one step at a time and you're more rooted in appreciating the journey, appreciating the challenge where you're at right now. It's a constant focus on growth on a regular basis, as opposed to expecting that you're going to, overnight be a success. You just keep taking one step at a time while having goals, by having a North star that you're focused on, but you're following the North star, you don't necessarily expect that you're going to reach the North star, but it gives you direction. And so you're taking those steps every single day as opposed to getting discouraged and being like “it's too far away so I'm not gonna move towards it”.

ill Factor: Yeah it actually allows you to do those pivots that you might need to make a lot easier. Like the pivots that come along, it's like: Ah man, I might have to actually take a job right now so that I can pay the bills, do all these things. Okay, great. And you still got the North star, but I want to make music. I want to share the music I'm making out with the rest of the world. Okay, great. Get the nine to five. So now the burden and stress of your music having to work out is removed, and the time you do spend on working the music is now doubled in impact because it's now more passionate. It's more joyful. It's more delighted because there's no pressure like: ah, this thing has to be the thing. And so that's been the advice I've had to give to a couple of people. And they're like, really? I feel like I can't do that because I'm giving up on my dream. It's no, you're pivoting. You're just pivoting right now in this season of your life. You've still got the North star there, but you just take this pivot because what's happening is the pressure you're putting on yourself to make this music thing work is actually killing and suffocating the life of trying to make the music work. It's a weird thing. And I don't prescribe it for everybody, but for certain people, that's what was going on. “But yeah, I won't have much time”. Maybe 2 hours working on your music, but without that stress will have more fruit and impact than the 10 hours you had stressing out about the music you were making. I don't know.

Michael Walker: The other point that you brought up, I think is really important is around appreciating your progress. It seems like that's one thing that is extremely important where, if you need to be able to look at your goals and say: okay I'm not at my goal yet, but am I moving in the right direction? Am I making progress? Am I taking steps? And by looking at that, you can actually appreciate: Oh, like I don't have to be there immediately, but as long as I'm moving in the right direction, it's like I'm moving one step at a time.

One analogy I've heard is playing a game of golf. Very rarely are you going to just hit a hole in one or like you swing it. It's like, all right, cool. Yeah, I got it. But generally it's you're going to hit it in the general direction. It's going to be a little bit off to the side. And then if you just keep chipping at it and you keep hitting it closer to the goal, then eventually you can actually get this tiny little ball in this tiny little hole it seems like a great analogy for our goal setting and be able to achieve things.

ill Factor: Come on, Tiger Walker. Come on, man. [both laughing]

Michael Walker: My new name.

ill Factor: Yeah. And then on the practical side of things, I know we went heavy on the mindset thing, but in the practical… it's funny mentioning the North star. The North Star on the production side of things is really value in reference tracks. And I don't mean just like listening to something on Spotify and then go back to your DAW. I mean: let me put a couple reference tracks in the actual session that I'm working in the Ableton, Logic, Fl whatever DAW you're using, putting it in there and then using that as a guide. I even encourage others: why don't you try remaking that? You're breaking it down and you're backward engineering it and you're understanding, Oh, that's why I liked that pre chorus because they included this really cool thing there. And I think that's what I'm missing in my arrangement. And it's just identifying these missing puzzle pieces in your production, in your songwriting, and even in the mix as a reference, that can be the most useful tool that you would ever walk away with. And it's not a new plugin. It's not a new VST instrument. It's just simply identifying and being a student of great production in the same landscape that you're working in so that you're able to be like: what feeling and emotion am I getting from that reference track when I A, B it, to what I'm hearing in mine? Mine seems dull and bland. Theirs seems exciting. Okay, take a moment, write down what couple things that you feel from the reference are really exciting. “Oh, they have this little llama, screaming in the background”. Okay, great, you don't have to put that on yours, but now you know that there's something going on there that I can do to get that emotion across.

Michael Walker: [chuckling] Llama screaming in the background. Now that's a sound I want to hear on a song.

ill Factor: [laughing] Don't get any ideas.

Michael Walker: You're going to be driving down the road tomorrow, turn on the radio. [mimicing a llama] Ahhh Yeah!

ill Factor: There you go.

Michael Walker: Awesome. Yeah. So it sounds like your reference tracks are one of those practical things., I would love to hear from your perspective I can already hear some of the objections or some of the concerns that artists might have around using reference tracks and a feeling of I want to be unique and original, and I'm not like anything that's ever come before. And I want to be my unique snowflake. And then there's truth to the idea of like originality and not just being a carbon cutout, but I'd love to hear your perspective in terms of the benefits of using reference tracks and how you view the mindset of using the reference tracks in particular, related to being an original artist too and being your own person.

ill Factor: Yeah. Yeah. When that person invents the one chord that's never been created, let me know.

Michael Walker: You mean… this? [plays way too many notes on the piano]

ill Factor: Look, sometimes we would put that pressure on ourselves. We would open up the DAW, we see a blank screen and we're like: Today I've got to create something that has never been thought of or created in the whole universe. There's got to be a mix between reggae, polka. It's got to be crazy original. It's: okay, yeah, good luck with that pressure that you put on yourself. Or you can just move with: man, I've been really inspired. I was jamming Megadeth this week and I'm really wanting to create something crazy rocky or whatever. And using that inspiration through the lens of life that you're living to paint an original thought and creative flow from that. It will be original regardless. Even if you're just doing a cover, you're still putting your own fingerprint on it. If you're doing a technical while I'm doing a, straight aid, a I'm mirroring, I oftentimes break down songs and just to deconstruct it, but I'm talking about I'm going to use a reference track and if the fear… it's deeper, it's not about: Oh, I'm not going to sound original. It's deeper than that. There's a deeper rooted issue as to why they're thinking that way cause what they're saying is my creative process only is the sum total of production choices and it's not involving any of my artistic outlook on life or the message that I want to share, or even how I view music.

So if you're just a robot and all you're doing is saying: that snare here, that kick there, that then there, then yeah, what you're doing is you're a copying machine. But if you're using that inspiration: man, I love that bass line, I would love to create something like that. Then go! Go create something like that and you would find that in the midst of creating something like that, yeah, there's gonna be some similarities, we can hear oh, man, I could totally hear you were influenced by that, but this is still something you. And then the maturity comes in identifying and having more conviction in who you are as an artist, where that becomes more of what bleeds in that production than the influence. But we got to start with: I was jamming out to these kinds of records. I really am moved and motivated by them. So I want to do something like that. Okay, cool. The most original stuff comes from the most studied content. It's like the Renaissance, man. You've got your master sculptor, you're going to be his apprentice. And when you're his apprentice, you're not going out and carving out statues of David all over the place. You've got your own little thing. You've learned the skills, but now you're crafting. You've got your own unique way of telling the story. So the reason why it's so powerful with the references is because it unlocks so much of the technical and practical hurdles. That get in the way of everybody: I don't know why it sounds like this”, or “I don't know what to do next”, or “I don't have the grammar”, “I don't understand why I want to get there, but I don't know how to unlock that. Well, just mirror it for a moment. And that doesn't mean you have to do this every time. This could be like: Hey, I'm trying to learn how to ride the bike. Okay, cool. Use some training wheels for right now. “No, but that's not cool. I want to land on my face every time I try to learn”. Okay, then land on your face. Or you can just get some training wheels, just enjoy it, learn it. And when you got this, start taking those training wheels off.

Michael Walker: Super smart. Yeah. That's a great shift in mindset. I think in terms of how to just think about using these as training wheels is interesting way to look at it and what I really like about what you're sharing around using reference tracks and using those as a way to identify what makes you unique and actually using those as a compass to point you in the direction of: what is it that is your original sound that you want to reflect. I’ve seen some interesting exercises before one of the mentors and our music mentor mastermind is someone named Friedemann, and he has a company called holistic songwriting and gosh, I'm probably giving away the punchline to this amazing exercise that he does, but I want to share it.

ill Factor: He’s really cool guy.

Michael Walker: He's awesome. He does an exercise where basically you make a big list of all of your favorite things and then a big list of all the things that you don't like, and you turn them into adjectives of words. The whole punchline is that at the end you he's actually like: all those things that you wrote down are things that reflect you and it's actually about you. Every time we've done that exercise with our community, it's always been an eye opener moment where we realize: wow, all of my favorite artists… the things I appreciate about them are also the things that I resonate with. And they're the team that tend to come out, in my own expression. It sounds like when you talk about using references, part of the value of it is that you can actually figure out when someone does something that you resonate with, you really love that actually resonates with you because of who you are. And so it's like a clue at figuring out: what do you want to express with your music and how can you express it? And so this isn't necessarily a way to be a carbon cutout or copy someone else. It's really about you discovering: what is it that resonates with you? And this is going to be a useful way to start.

ill Factor: That's exactly it. Everybody says no, I'm going to sound just like them. And I go, if that's how you're thinking about going in this you're thinking about it wrong. You're saying that your music is just the sum product of sounds being thrown together. That's not what's happening here. You're trying to identify what you're resonating with. Exactly what you're saying. Yeah, it’s like: man, this really moves me. I want to learn how to do that. And then in the process of doing that, I want to learn now how to make it my own. Congratulations. You're an artist.

Michael Walker: Amazing. If further reading on this topic, it's been a while since I've read this book, but I know that this is a book that's come up in our space. I'm sure you've heard this book, read it before: stealing like an artist. I think this is what it's called, and it goes into this concept. One thing I would love to do now with our remaining 7 minutes or so, is to open up the floor to our live audience. If anyone has any questions in particular for ill Factor, That you'd like to come on stage and ask, then feel free to raise your hand in the Modern Musician community and we will bring you on live.

Joe brought up a good point in terms of, he said: What would we even do with ourselves if everything just happened right away? Isn't the joy in working every day, the journey, not the destination? Yeah. It seems like that's one of those truths that you can sometimes feel cliche like: Oh, it's all about the journey. It's cliche for a reason. It really is truly ultimately about the present moment and where we are right now and it's also about the path: having that North star. Being on a bicycle and just sitting still… It's hard to balance. You can't really do that. You need to be moving towards a goal. You need to be moving towards something. But if you don't appreciate it along the way…

So Rakuda is curious about specifically indie artists and for the landscape of the music industry: do you see indie artists making it to the big stages, in terms of reaching worldwide fame and in general, and where do you see things right now as it relates to record labels and the indie artists?

ill Factor: I've actually got a really great case study. So I've had an artist come in here a couple months ago, Hoodie Allen and Connor Price. So working with those guys. Hoodie Allen is an artist who had some rumblings with major Riker labels, but then Connor Price is just completely, fully independent. If you're not familiar, he's found his niche on TikTok where he was able to just create these little skits. And through those skits that just became viral and in that just set up everything he was doing with his music Ablaze. I think the short answer to your question is, can indie artists tap into a worldwide stage? Absolutely yes. Can it happen all the time? It's rare, right? It's a very rare situation on a global scale. But the thing is: you now have to look at it as bringing the world stage to you. So you're realizing: how I can create an ecosystem that allows those who are resonating with the art that I'm making with my music? It might start off with just being faithful with a hundred people and that hundred people growing into the 500, the 1000 and things like that. And so it's not necessarily that you were able to tap into the world, for those five or a hundred people, you are the world to them. And so you got to really look at that perspective and then realize: what's at the very heart of that question is I want to know if an indie artist can make worldwide success because fill in the blank. That is what you should be striving for. The answer to that question is the right question to be asking. Because if you're asking Rakuda, right? If you're asking Rakuda, can an indie artist be successful to the at the same equivalent as a Rihanna? Yes. Why do you ask? Is it because I want to be able to have that level of success or that level of fame or notoriety? Okay, if thats the target you're aiming for, you strategically need to map something out to just get famous. There are plenty of ways you can do that. You can probably start by lighting your eyebrows on fire and putting it on tiktok and doing stuff, right? 

Michael Walker: [laughing] He’s already done that

ill Factor: So that's what I'm getting at, right? Those are two different paths. And so if it's if you come back to: can an indie artist be successful with their music? Okay. Now we're asking something different. We're asking: can I write, create art and music that will touch somebody's heart and life and impact them? Yes, you can. And you don't need a worldwide stage to do that. So the question I'm bringing to the table is, can an indie artist have the same success as a worldwide famous artist? Yes. So that they can, what? That's the question we need to ask. So that you can what? Now that you got the world's attention, what do you want them to know? What do you want to happen? What do you want to come from that? And that's what you're going for. Not worldwide fame, you're saying: can an indie artist get that thing?

Michael Walker: Man, so good. Reminds me of that story about the fisherman who, I'm going to butcher this cause I don't usually tell this story, but there's a kind of a fable about a fisherman. So he's fishing off the side of his boat. And he's poor. He's a poor fisherman.

ill Factor: Poor fishermen.

Michael Walker: He's like spending most of his time, like fishing one fish at a time. And he has a goal to build a successful fish market business. And they go down this path where he keeps on escalating the vision. Like he wants to have thousands of employees. He wants to have this huge operation and you can be able to sell fishes. And they ask: So that what? And eventually it gets to a point where he’s like: so that I can spend as much time as I want and fishing whenever I want. And the irony of the story is that he's already doing that. He already has the ability to do that. So this idea of achieving all these things is really just an end to the mean that he already can do that thing. It certainly seems true for a lot of our lives and our careers. So that what?

ill Factor: That is the most important question right there that we should be asking ourselves: I want to do this. I want to do that. Okay, so that what? I want to make a career out of my music. Okay. So that what? So that I can do what I love doing and make a living off of it. Okay. So that what? That is the key thing, okay? If you had a sustainable income and you could still make music because you love making music, is that a win in that situation? “Yeah.” Okay, now that changes everything and how you pursue. That is such an important key that will unlock so many doors for us if we just spent the time to really dig and ask that question.

Michael Walker: I love it. Yeah. It reminds me of the 5 Ys. But basically it's that idea, but you basically go 5 levels deep. So you know, if you said, my goal is to become a Llama master and you say why? Because I want to be seen and recognized for being a Llama master. Why? Because my parents didn't believe in me. I want to prove it to them. I want to prove it to myself. Why does that matter to you? Because I felt like I wasn't enough and, and I want to be able to prove to myself and to, to the world that I am enough. And when you can go deep on your why… you can get really clear on the mission… it's a great place to start.

ill Factor: Then you find out that you don't even need to be a llama master. You could just get that validation from right there then, and you just circumvented that whole journey just from getting deep with that why?

Michael Walker: Good stuff. Hey, Ivan thank you so much for coming on here and both sharing the “woo woo”. Yeah. I view myself as a “woo woo” compliant. That's the way I put it. [both laughing] But I think it's incredibly valuable what we talked about with mentorship, with getting clearer with your, why your purpose, as well as some very important practical tips on the fastest way to improve and grow. I really appreciate your time being here and for anyone who's listening to this right now, who's resonating with this and is interested in taking the next step in their career as it relates to their music and their production, where would be the best place for them to go to connect more?

ill Factor: Yeah, they can just go to beatacademy.com. Just sign up to the email list right now. I'm actually migrating my whole platform. All the courses that I've put together these past five years, I'm actually just hand delivering it to everybody for free. So jump on board. I'm giving the courses I'm putting together this private community. It's going to be free. You can just jump in. I do a monthly call there. So yeah, just jump in and feast. There's a lot to feast on there. I'm extremely blessed to just be able to give that value to you guys. So beatacademy.com and just join in. I'm going to be migrating within the next couple of weeks.

Michael Walker: Absolutely incredible. This is such a huge resource. He's taking literally thousands of dollars worth of courses, materials, making them available. I just think the strategy in general is awesome. I know that part of your reason for doing this is because you want to focus more on working personally and mentoring people through that direct connection and so the courses, for your way to provide value and make it accessible while also having a good community and being able to do that personal mentorship. So I think it's awesome. And I think it's a huge opportunity for all of us who are interested in learning music production to go deep in that world and actually learn from a master.

ill Factor: Yeah. Whether you're just getting started or you need the higher end advanced stuff, all the courses I've been creating, like how to produce Indie pop, produce EDM and all this stuff, it's all there. And I'm just here, take the basket guys, drink deeply from that well. And when you're ready to step forward, I'll be there.

Michael Walker: Amazing. All right. Like always, we'll put the links in the show notes for easy access. And yeah, Ivan appreciate your time. Then at some point we'll, I'm sure we'll be able to hang out in the studio and record “the trolls”, which is Lord of the Rings album of the century together and looking forward to it.

ill Factor: [sings] And the trolls will go. They must

Michael Walker: [sings] Well they MUUUUUSSSTTTT.

Hey, it’s Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today, and if you want to support the podcast then there’s a few ways to help us grow.

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