Rory Felton: In our most recent meeting with Spotify they said that they've seen the biggest impact if you have a song that's already reacting like: “Oh man, it's happening”, dump that into Discovery Mode because it will have a triple effect or more versus other things.

Michael Walker: It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician and it's only getting better. If you have high-quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker. 

All right. I'm excited to be here today with the one and only Rory Felton. So Rory went from running a hobby record label in high school, to pioneering digital music marketing. He co-founded the Militia Group leading to Sony Music's minority stake acquisition, and he continued at a company called Chirpify where he worked with some top artists and brands. In addition to working and making a huge impact with music, he's also the managing director of Haiti Venture Partners. And they help to invest in clean water, solar energy initiatives. He's carried over 100 jobs. Amazing. Similarly, he has a lot of expertise as it relates to music royalties and seeing the path for an artist going from 10,000 monthly listeners to a million monthly listeners. He’ss been recognized by billboard as a billboard's top 30 executives under 30. And yeah, I think you guys are going to be in for a treat today. I'm excited to have him on the podcast. So Rory, thank-you so much for taking time to be here today.

Rory Felton: Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Michael.

Michael Walker: Oh yeah. Rory, to start out with, I would love to hear just a little bit about your story and if you wanted to introduce yourself for anyone who hasn't connected with you before, could you share about how you landed on the Billboard's top 30 executives under 30?

Rory Felton: Sure. I'll try to make it short and sweet. Like a lot of us, I started making music in high school, or actually, middle school. I realized pretty quickly at 16 that I couldn't really write music. So I gave up my dream of being in a punk band and started helping all the other bands in my local area, which was Kansas City. I started booking shows and booking all the regional acts at local clubs, having bands sleep in my basement. My parents were awesome. And the next step was just to start putting out records. And I didn’t know what that was when I was 16 years old in 1998, but we figured out how to manufacture CDs. We figured out how to call retail record stores and retailers and manufacturers. The first record I put out was this band The Juliana Theory that went on to Sony Music for a couple records. Their success helped me realize: okay, maybe I can make a business out of this. Graduated high school, moved to LA. to go to USC. to study music industry, and got bored my freshman year and started another label called The Militia Group. And we put out a ton of records in the whole pop/punk/emo indie rock scene for about a decade. Sold some millions of records. Sony later acquired part of the company, and then the major assets of all the company, including Cartel. But it was a great experience. We got to sell a lot of records, helped a lot of artists grow from nothing to having careers and learn the whole transition from CD’s to Napster to digital downloads to the streaming era. And it was wonderful. I took a couple years off, as you said, and did some volunteer work, which was a joy to do with my wife when we got married before we had kids. Found myself pulled back into the music industry helping major artists like Gaga, Snoop Dogg, Tim McGraw, Green Day and major labels do digital campaigns, mainly on social media, driven around commerce. But what I recognize is, there's still so many problems for independent artists in this new era of streaming. First getting all the royalties, making sure they're getting a little bit more, doing everything they need to do around the release. And the services out there weren't really doing everything that I would want, at least not an all-in-one platform. And so that leads me to what we've been up to for the last couple of years, which is called Good Morning Music. And essentially we're an all in one service doing distribution, publishing admin, editorial playlist pitching, film and TV, music pitching, Spotify Discovery Mode, YouTube official artists channels, video distribution Avivo, all in one service, trying to make artists lives easier, making sure they're getting all their royalties. And we service thousands of artists and I love it.

Michael: Dude, that is amazing! I love the fact that you both have been a part of the music industry for basically your whole life from middle school and part of your journey too has led you to doing volunteer work. And then you've come back into it. It seems like you've had a pretty interesting experience and certainly the state of the music industry right now around streaming first, and looking for help without necessarily having a major record label, is a hugely valuable service. One thing I just want to point out too, for anyone that's listening to this: this was a fun moment we had backstage before we started: huge fan of cartel and the fact that you helped them hit their gold record was a full circle moment for me. My band recorded with Zach and Ken.

Rory: Did you record at Tree Sound?

Michael: Oh yeah, Jordan Schmidt?

Rory: The studio tree sound studios. That's where we made that record. I don't know if you recorded there.

Michael: No, I don't think we ever recorded there, but I have some folks who have recorded there. For anyone that's listening to this right now, who: maybe they are a little bit overwhelmed by the idea of music royalties, and it seems like there's this whole convoluted system around: how do they actually collect their royalties? Can you give them a quick breakdown? How do you make music royalties simple?

Rory: Simple? Phew! So it's good to remember that all these rules and laws that exist in the US have historical precedence, right? I'm a little spoiled because my degree is in essentially music law and I've been doing this too long. This is stuff that I got to learn in college and most artists gotta figure it out through trial and error, right? But they all have a history as to why they're there, if that makes sense. But simply put in the streaming era or fully digital area that we're in, I think there's really just a few places artists need to be registered to make sure that they're fully covered. First, your distributor gets your recording royalties, right? Most independent artists own their own recordings, so they get 100% of those royalties paid to them through whatever distribution service they use. But there's also another recording royalty due, both as a recording artist and a recording owner. That's called a master performance royalty and it's due from internet radio. In the US, there's one Pseudo-government entity called SoundExchange that captures this royalty and pays it out. So every artist has to have a distributor and has to be registered with SoundExchange, both as a recording artist and as a recording owner. Even if later in your career you do sign to a record company, you're still owed a royalty as a recording artist from SoundExchange. So you want to make sure you keep those updated and you keep claiming all your recordings in that system. But then there's the whole bucket of royalties that are due to artists as songwriters. And the biggest misnomer that I see speaking with artists every day is they think that: Oh, I'm registered with the PRO, they got all my royalties. And that unfortunately in the US is not the case. So to get all your royalties as a songwriter, you need to be registered with a PRO like ASCAP or BMI, and they collect what's called performance royalties or public performance royalties that are due you as a songwriter. So when your music's played on the radio, played on TV shows, even certain streams online, internet radio, there is a public performance royalty due you as a songwriter that is collected by ASCAP or BMI. But when you look at publishing statements, the majority of your songwriting income, or royalties come from what's called mechanical royalties. And mechanical royalties is a royalty also due you as a songwriter. And historically they used to be paid to record companies from digital downloads and CD sales, and then the record companies would pay out to the publishing companies or the songwriters. But in the streaming era, because it's considered a slightly different type of royalty, the DSPs themselves like Spotify, AppleMusic, and YouTube pay these directly to publishers. They don't pay them to the record company. As the songwriter, you should get paid your mechanical royalties. There's two options: You can register with a mechanical licensing society in the US. And the challenge there is it's really a gray area whether they're capturing all your international royalties. Often there's a delay because getting collected from Slovakia or Korea can take months, if not a lot of time. The other solution, which I think is the best solution, is to register with what's called the publishing admin service. A publishing administrator acts as your publisher, but you get to own your publishing, you get to own your compositions. You're not selling your rights. But at least they can go out and say: Hey, look, 20,000 sources that pay songwriting royalties globally over the internet pay them to this bank account and by covering all those registrations, a distributor, SoundExchange, and a publisher, you typically cover 99% of the royalties that could be collected for you. Hopefully that wasn't too wordy for everyone. [both laughing]

Michael: The thing that came up for me as you're describing that is just how grateful I am for people like you that, have learned all this, have created tools, because I think the next question I have would be, for most artists who are interested in collecting their royalties and maybe the idea of going and trying to collect all of these themselves might feel a little overwhelming. What would you recommend that they look for in terms of… I know with what you've created with Good Morning, it seems like that's an amazing solution that takes a lot of the complexity around collecting royalties out of the equation. For artists who are listening to this right now, is that what you'd recommend for most of them is that they work with Good Morning, for example, to collect the royalties? Is there anything that's still missing after you do that, or is it just all in one umbrella?

Rory: Yeah. So clearly we're not the only shop on the block. And I will say about publishing admin: it's a collection service. It's like buying a utility, like cell phone service. What's the difference between A & B & C? I'm not sure, I guess it's really just about customer service and support, and what their fees are. So there are other people that do that. Not many distributors do collect publishing admin in addition to their record royalties. We are one of the few that do that, but there are other folks out there. If you were to register with Good Morning, what you'd have to do as well is register on SoundExchange to get master performance royalties from Internet Radio. And to register with any publishing administrator, you need what's called an IPI number, which is assigned to you by a performing rights organization (PRO). I actually helped an artist this week with this. I think ASCAP now is free to sign up just as an independent artist. So that's awesome. I think BMI still charges a little bit, maybe $50 or $100. So if you're broke, like most independent artists, just sign up for ASCAP if it's free. You get that IPI number and then you can explore what pub admin services are out there and which one you want to work with.

Michael: Okay. Awesome. The other thing that I wanted to pick your brain on was, I know that you have a lot of experience just with overall growth and helping artists grow from their initial start as an emerging artist, to selling gold records, selling millions of records. And so I would love to hear your perspective…. We kinda like zoomed out and looked at the specific period of growing from… let's say that someone has gotten off the ground and they're starting to gain some traction but they'd really to take it the next level from 10,000 monthly listeners to 100 thousand or a million monthly listeners. What would you recommend from a strategic vantage point to help do that?

Rory: Yeah. So the biggest driver of stream growth, let's just talk about like 10-100K of monthlies. And by the way, let’s remember: streaming is not the end of the day. It's not the end all. It is really just a top of a market funnel that brings people into your world. So I know we focus so much on streaming for obvious reasons, I just want to remind everyone, there are artists that crush it live and do nothing on streaming and that is quite possible. That is definitely a lane like jam bands and other artists can take. But let's just look at monthly for simplicity's sake. So the biggest driver of growth from let's just say 10-100K is your socials. The artists that are figuring out how to build out communities, once they hit that threshold, they are converting over to streaming audiences on Spotify and AppleMusic. And we're seeing it. So what I always recommend to artists is: look at that artist that is at 100-300,000 monthlies, and then go look at their socials. See what they're doing. If they're using a strategy that's working, copy it. Find a way to put your own personality into it and repeat it. Some artists I've seen that I just love what they're doing: We have an artist called Primrose from New England, and they really leaned into being a emo revival band, right? And if you go to their TikTok and Instagram, they basically have all this tongue-in-cheek humor poking fun at the fact that being a garage band and playing with six people, they did all these skits around it and they kept repeating it. They didn't just do it one time. They did the same skit slightly differently, 30 times. And it's this continued hitting that the TikTok and Instagram algorithm was really light. So it started showing up in other people's feed when you're not even following that account. It was so easy to just experience cause it was humor. It was fun rather than like: “check out my new song”, and so they brought people into their world through humor. And then through that, they had this really engaged community that they were able to drive pre-saves. They would pound for pre-saves for 3 weeks before the drop. On their most recent release Afterworld, they got, I think up to 3,000 pre-saves on this song. I think it's pretty amazing for an independent artist to achieve that metric. And bear in mind, they're still playing to like 200-300 people locally. They're not some massive band, but they were able to leverage that to get to that. And then by getting that number of pre-saves, we could take that and really get the attention of editors at Spotify and Apple Music. On their latest drop, they've gotten a couple great editorial playlists like All New Indie and Fresh Finds, Indie. And we can talk about editorial and the benefits and what not to expect in editorial, but through this change, we now see they went from 8,000 monthly listeners to 33,000 in the last few weeks. So they're growing. They'll be at 100K in the next couple of months. Other strategies that help: dropping regularly. For whatever reason, the Spotify algo loves artists that drop monthly or every 6-8 weeks; every 4-8 weeks. This seems to notify Spotify that you're an active artist. You're releasing music regularly. You also keep growing your followers, and every time your followers grow, you hit that many more people on their release radar when you drop. So rather than drop an album, and that's it, right? Today's era, you got to drop, I'm sure you already talked about this, you drop singles every 4-6 weeks, so you're having multiple hits on their release radar. This triggers the algorithm to get your music pulled into more areas. A growth hack that I've seen work really well is collaborations. If you have friends, or you just want to reach out to other artists on social media that you love that are slightly ahead of you… Scenario's sake, you're at 10-20 thousand monthlies, target artists at that 60-120,000 monthlies and find someone that obviously fits your lane, but you want to do a collaboration with. And if you can both do a collaboration where you're both the primary artist, that track hits twice as many accounts on their release radar, and it really functions as a nice growth habit. In fact, I would say if an artist did that 4 times over 8 months, man, you're going to see a massive uplift in your monthly, just from that alone, because it just exposes your music to more people, it gets more attention, and that in turn gets a positive reaction from the algorithm, which gets your music pulled into more programmatic playlists within the DSPs. I'm not here to talk about or defend Spotify's royalty rates, but I will say their Discovery Mode has proven to be pretty impactful for the artists that opt into it. I think almost 100% of the time that we've had artists opt into Discovery Mode on Spotify, if you guys don't know what that is, it's a program they have for independent artists that can pull your music into more internet radio playlists and automated playlists, but the trade off is they take a 30% haircut on your royalty rate per stream, however 100% of the time that I've seen artists opt in, they end up still earning more money because their streams go up 100-200-300% and so even when you take off that 30% haircut, they're still making more monthly revenue than they were prior to Discovery Mode. So I think those are some really cool growth hacks from getting from 10-100k monthly.

Michael: Awesome. I was just going to say, gosh, giving up 30% of my Spotify royalties…

Rory: That’s brutal!

Michael: [sarcastically] That's $10 million a month. [both laughing]

Rory: You opt in every month, so you don't have to agree forever, and you opt in on a track-by-track basis. In our most recent meeting with Spotify they said that they've seen the biggest impact if you have a song that's already reacting like: “Oh man, it's happening”, dump that into Discovery Mode because it will have a triple effect or more versus other things. I can't share my screen right now, but I was looking at an artist's SFA (Spotify for Artists) today, and they had a track. The listener list was at a 6,400% increase from Discovery Mode.

Michael: Wow! Wild.

Rory: It's wild, and yeah. It can definitely help.

Michael: Yeah. Awesome. Some big gold nuggets in there. And we just shared a few different things. The collaborations idea? Super smart. Making sure you have a regular release schedule for 4-8 weeks. Where my mind goes with that too, is like for all of you who are here live or listening to this, or who are a part of our Modern Musician community, you have such an awesome resource to be able to reach out to each other and collaborate and do exactly what Rory's mentioning right now in terms of: we started to see it with some of our team has really started to co-write together and release songs and videos. But man, there's just some really cool opportunity there. We have a channel called collaborations. It's one of the most active channels that we have here, but I would totally encourage anyone who's here live to take advantage of that and introduce yourself and start connecting with other artists. Or, if you're listening to this anywhere and you're not in the live audience, then if you click on the link to join our free community, then you can get access to a community of over 110,000 indie musicians who are probably a lot like you, and at least quite a few of them would be great collaborators for you to implement what Rory’s is describing right now. One question, I would say like the last question I want to ask before we go to our audience Q&A, is you mentioned how Spotify, for obvious reasons, it's something that we focus on a lot and on the surface, it's very easy to see, it's easy to judge someone's music or career by that stat. So it seems like there's a lot of energy that kind of goes towards how many monthly listeners do we have? But Spotify alone for most artists isn't really paying the bills isn't really what's generating the traction in the actual music business and the fan base. I'd love to hear your recommendations for: let's say that someone implements those strategies that you walked through and they see some substantial growth. They start seeing some traction in terms of: they're at 40 or 50,000 monthly listeners on Spotify. What do you recommend that they do to start really maximizing the value of those new listeners, and the fans that they have and turn it into more of a community and actually start making some like revenue that's non-streaming related?

Rory: Yeah. So this is going to sound so boring, but it's so powerful. E-mails! It's just still so powerful. Like you could build up 100 thousand followers on IG or TikTok, but they changed the algo, and you thought you were reaching 20% of them every time you post, but now you're only reaching 3%. You just don't know. They'll change it up every…. I don't know how often they change it, but from time to time. Or I think about the artist that had 2 million likes on Facebook and I'm like: Oh man, what do you do with that today? I don't know. Maybe it still works. I don't know who's on Facebook today.

Michael: It's good for paid media, but for organic stuff, not so much.

Rory: I'm not sure. Yeah. So yeah, I definitely would say: look, start running contests on social, doing things to drive your email capture. Everything you do, on your linktree, on your website. I like contests on social. Giveaways to drive email capture. Cause then you're just building up your list, right? They give their name, their email, maybe their zip code. You start to build up this really powerful list that you can re-target whenever you want, however you want. Clearly the next step, if you haven't already, is starting to play live. And so clearly playing locally where you are as well as in your regional markets. So let's say you're based in Kansas City where I went to high school. In addition to playing Kansas City, you might want to look at playing Omaha, Chicago, St. Louis, Oklahoma City, Wichita, and just start doing regional performances and building up that audience. If you've never played those markets before, a great solution is to do a show trade. Find a similar like-minded artist at a similar level, where let's say you draw 100 kids locally, 100 tickets, you can sell 50-100 tickets locally. Find an artist at the same level in a market close to you and do a show trade where you play together in their market one month and you guys play together in your market in the next month. That can be a great way to start building up those live performance audiences in those regional markets. And then through your email list, you want a computer to build that up, engage them, make sure that they feel super loved, super attention, giving them a lot of attention because those are the ones that end up turning into super fans. I always like to think of streaming as your top of your marketing funnel, right? So let's say you have the joy of getting to 300-400,000 monthly listeners. Typically that means your revenue starts getting into 3, 5, 6, 7K a month, which is great. And then turning those people into what I call happy paying fans. Normally just merchandise, like tickets and t-shirts and hoodies. So I think of limited edition, high-end items too. So if you've got a merch store where you're selling a few t-shirts and a few hoodies, come up with something really cool. I don't know, a custom branded guitar or something really unique and special and just offer it for $1,000. Chances are, you're going to have a fan that loves art so much and just loves the idea of being a benefactor of an artist. I'm always reminded of a band from Oklahoma, Flaming Lips. The Flaming Lips sold a crystal skull with a USB drive in the mouth of it for $5,000. And I had a limited edition album that no one else could hear any other way. But they sold 10 of these things. You can start to explore also on the web 3 side of things, we don't need to get into that right now, it's a whole other conversation, but there are people doing some interesting, one-of-a-kind digital experiences where if someone owned this token that was a digital item, it would get you a free ticket to a concert for the rest of your life, to a band or things like that. It could be a great way to empower and incentivize super fans. Having 100 thousand emails, that's a big number I'm aware, is probably more powerful than having a million monthly listeners because you can repeat and continue to repeat and hit them with all sorts of things. Be it tour dates, merchandise, limited edition experiences too. Once your audience starts to get built up, you could do the traditional VIP experience before a show, but you could do even something really special and just dream it up. Come with me to Napa for a weekend. Right? 10 grand all in type thing. Whatever fits your brand as an artist. These experiences are what people want. Music's still the most powerful thing in the world, so people do pretty illogical things with their money when it's tied to music they love.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. Dude, you're speaking my language and about 6-7 of the things that you just mentioned are things that, anyone who's here live right now knows we're just iterating on a ton. And it's great to hear that reflected as well in terms of the importance of direct communication with your fans through email and through text message. We have a platform called StreetTeam that we built. That's a software platform. It's like a CRM platform for artists to connect with their fans.

Rory: Nice! 

Michael: And the idea of having like higher-end experiences, we call those the diamond offers. Things like private retreats or custom songs are something that we've also found artists having great success with, and it was just like great value to their fans. So yeah, some big gold nuggets in there. I would love to open the floor to our audience that's here live. I'm sure that we have some good questions that you guys might be curious about asking Rory.

VoZ also raised his hand so we can bring on VoZ in the meantime.

VoZ: Thank-you Rory for being here today. But what I would like to know a little bit more is: Okay what I'd like to do, if you don't mind, is give us a little… I went on the website while you were talking and was trying to look up a little bit about Good Morning Music. You are a music administrator, from what I understand. If you would, give us a little more insight into that, if you don't mind.

Rory: Sure. Awesome. Yeah yeah, Good Morning Music, we think of ourselves as an all in one solution. At our core, we do distribution, but we also do publishing admin, because one of the biggest problems we've seen is that artists just forget to register their music and sometimes when they register their songs for publishing, even several years after their music's been out, big checks roll in that first couple of quarters, cause it's catching up for the last previous years of royalties they haven't collected. So if you can distribute your recording and then register your composition for publishing right away, it just gets done. So you don't have to worry about it or try to do it another time. So that's what we do at our core. And then we have a layer of promotional and marketing features, including editorial playlist pitching. We have a great track record of being able to get editor's attention. Film and TV music placement. Again, we have a long list of songs we've helped place in film and television shows, video games, and advertisements. And then you can opt into just for Spotify Discovery Mode in our dashboard, you can synchronize your lyrics everywhere through our service, you can distribute music videos to Vivo. You can get a YouTube official artist channel. We try to be as much of an all-in-one service as we can be for independent artists.

Michael: Awesome. What I love about everything you just mentioned is just how complementary it is. With StreetTeam, we don't do any of the distribution, we don't do any of the royalty collection. It's a big gap in terms of our offering. So I wonder, you guys don't happen to have an API that we could potentially build something into StreetTeam do you, where we could actually help artists distribute their music through your platform?

Rory: Man! So there is an API in our backend. What we can do with it is kinda challenging. We've had some people ask us: oh, can we build a tool on top of your API? With music rights, it gets a little hairy, right, because, one of the biggest challenges as distributors we face is trying to prevent fraud. A lot of international bad actors will try to upload music either that's infringing on copyrights or they're trying to stream farm.

Michael: Spotify especially, sorry to cut you off there, that if I remember right, Spotify recently put all the responsibility on distributors now too.

Rory: Exactly. So that's forced us to even change our model a bit. We used to have a free model, but we actually got rid of it entirely because if you have to pay even $3 bucks a month to access a distributor, it weeds out a lot of bad actors cause they just don't want to mess with it. With that being said, it's hard for us to fully open up our API to like the world, because we can just get a huge amount of… These people spend all day, like finding distributors that they can essentially attack in a way and upload tons of content from 50 different accounts, just trying to get a few through the barriers, hoping that they can stream farm and get paid all this money in 2-3 months. The Spotify stream farming game is over like it's so catchable by Spotify. They'll penalize you right away and they just won't pay you anything. But now they're trying TikTok. Granted, we all know the TikTok royalties are pennies. I think I had 16 million streams on TikTok and it paid me like $150 or something stupid. But people are, I guess, able to create hundreds of millions of streams, fake streams, streams I call them, on TikTok trying to get royalties that way. I don't think it's going to work. I can't stop every bad actor in the world trying to be a bad actor. Kinda the long winded answer. But Michael, I think there's definitely something we could figure out. At least some sort of referral program where we can give everyone a discounted rate. Something like that. Yeah, for sure.

Michael: Awesome.

Rory: Or we’ll send people to StreetTeam because we're not building that tool.

Michael: Yeah, I think there's a huge amount of opportunity for a collaboration just in terms of our artists right now need distribution and there's a few different options like DistroKid, TuneCore, CD Baby, et cetera. But I would love to build a partnership with a distributor that I know personally.

Rory: Yeah! I’d love that!

Michael: I think there's definitely something to explore there.

Rory: Yeah, we'd love that. We have a couple sort of referral partnerships with a few other folks doing what you guys are doing, not as big as you guys, but we give them a special unique code so we know everyone that gets referred and we know we get them a special rate. We could find other ways to provide even more value than maybe our traditional, just what we call pro-member users.

Michael: Awesome. Cool. Hey, Rory, it's been great meeting you and connecting with you today. Thank-you for sharing some of your experience from middle school till now. The fact that you came to a realization early on that you, maybe you didn't want to be creating the music, but that you still were able to support other musicians and be a part of it, something that is hugely appreciated. Yeah. The music industry needs all the help that they can have, so I appreciate you. And for anyone who is here listening or watching this right now, who's interested in connecting more or learning more about Good Morning, what do you recommend that they go to check it out?

Rory: Yeah, they can go to our website, GoodMorningMusic.com. Also just email me. I'm just Rory@GoodMorningmusic.com. I'll hit you with my calendar link. Happy to schedule a meeting with anyone interested to get the rundown on our service. That's pretty much what I do every day right now. We have a whole team here for support. One of the big issues with a lot of the bigger distributors, or I should say bigger self release distributors: Their support, we always hear, is: Oh, I can't get ahold of someone to fix this. In this digital world we live in, metadata there's always a tweak that's needed. So just having whoever you work with for distribution, having someone you can talk to is really helpful.

Michael: Absolutely. Awesome. Like always, we'll put the links in the show notes for easy access and let's go ahead and let's give a round of applause to Rory! 

Hey, it’s Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today, and if you want to support the podcast then there’s a few ways to help us grow.

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