Michael Walker: If you’re listening to this then you likely already know that being an independent musician can be a lonely road. And maybe your friends and your family don’t fully understand why you do what you do, or why you invest so much time, energy, and money towards achieving your music goals. And especially early on, it can be hard to find people who really understand what you’re trying to accomplish and how to make it happen. So, that’s where Modern Musician comes in!

My name’s Michael Walker and I can understand and relate to that feeling. I’ve been there myself, and so has our team of independent artists. The truth is that basically everything good in my life has been a result of music. It’s the reason I met my wife, my 3 kids, it’s how I met my best friends. And now with Modern Musician, we have seen so many talented artists who started out with a dream, with a passion, without really a fanbase or a business. And you’ll take that and turn it into a sustainable full-time career and be able to impact hundreds, maybe even thousands or millions of fans with your music. We’ve had thousands of messages from artists who told us we’ve helped change their lives forever. It just gets even more exciting and fulfilling when you’re surrounded by a community of other people who get it, and who have shared their knowledge and success with each other openly. So, if you are feeling called into making your music a full-time career and to be able to reach more people with your music, then I want to invite you to join our community so that we can help support your growth and we can help lift you up as you pursue your musical dreams. You’ll be able to interact in a community with other high-level artists, coaches, and industry professionals, as well as be able to participate in our daily live podcast, meet these amazing guests, and get access to completely free training. If you’d like to join our family of artists who truly care about your success, then click on the link in the show notes and sign-up now. 

Savannah Pope: People always talk about this like: Oh, I was an overnight success, but it's really it was a 10-year “overnight” success. It was 6 months of outreach and prep and organization to get that done. The first day that really started paying off with people's responses were just so overwhelming. I think we raised like $15k on the first day. That was really when I was like: okay well, if this is how it's starting, I think we're okay. [laughs]

Michael Walker: It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician and it's only getting better. If you have high-quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

All right. So I'm excited to be here today with Savannah Pope. Savannah is an award winning rock singer/songwriter who boasts stunning lyricism, vocal power, and stage presence. And she's also one of my first clients that I ever had at Modern Musician. She's someone that I had the opportunity to work with personally, and she's just awesome. She's wickedly talented and really just a true artist in all senses of the word. I think that a lot of her image and her music is very iconic. She's also a voice for mental health. It’s one thing that I really appreciate about the platform that she's built. She actually finished raising $62,272 for her new album Pandemonium on Kickstarter. Which is really impressive! So I asked her if she'd be willing to come on to our podcast and just share a little bit about her process and her journey through that Kickstarter campaign so that she could share some lessons or what she gained from the experience. And so I'm super excited to have her on here to be able to talk a little bit more. So Savannah, thanks for taking the time to be here today.

Savannah Pope: Hey, Michael, lovely to be here. Always a joy to see you and chat with you.

Michael: Oh yeah. Awesome. So just start out with, I would love to zoom back to when we first connected; when we first started working together, and maybe you could just share a little bit of details about your starting point and where did you start from, and what would you say was the biggest challenge that you were going through when you're initially getting started?

Savannah: Yeah, let's see. I started working with you not long before the pandemic and I had just gone solo and I just released my first single and the music video that I spent… I got hit by a car and then it took a long time to figure out exactly what I needed to do to fix my body after that lovely experience. So I ended up having to get a pretty intense surgery on my knee. And so I ended up having a lot of downtime. It was really, really difficult. I couldn't walk for a while. So I just spent a lot of time, I had shot this music video and I had this massive, incredibly ambitious idea and I was just beginning to play around with motion graphics animation. I've always been a good editor but I wanted to take it to the next level. So I spent a year making this music video frame by frame, essentially as a way to learn animation. And so I had that, and I put that out and that had just come out and gotten some great press.

Michael: What was the name of that video?

Savannah: Creature.

Michael: [incredulously] You made that yourself?

Savannah: Yeah.

Michael: Oh my gosh! How did I not even know that Savannah? [both laughing] That's amazing! Holy cow!

Savannah: Thank-you. Yeah. I mean, that's been like a big part of my calling card. I started out as a visual artist, actually, before going full-time as a musician.

Michael: That tracks. That definitely adds up. [both laughing]

Savannah: I had just kind of finally put my stuff out solo.Like I said, I'd been hit by a car. I was coming out of a really rough time of being like: my band broke up, I couldn't walk. I felt very lost. And so I was like, you know what? I'm going to go solo! I'm going to put my own name on this. I'm just gonna go for it: Rip off the band aid and see if that makes me feel a little bit more in my own body, if that makes any sense. And so I had just done that, and I was starting to get some good traction, but I just felt totally like a babe in the woods. I wanted to empower myself a little bit and learn some tools, so I started working with Modern Musician and learning all of this crazy stuff. I was part of the first generation and it's so amazing to see how much it's changed and grown and how much you've streamlined the process. I'm glad I came in in the beginning because I feel like I had to learn some high-level stuff. I had to learn a bit of coding. I had to learn all the stuff that was really intimidating to me. And it was kind of perfect timing during the pandemic to just dig in and, and learn all of this crazy stuff and all of these new technologies, really cutting edge. Yeah, that's been a massive boost to my fan base and to just feeling supported as an artist, and that was a huge factor in me doing this crowdfund because I felt like I had a community. I have a private community of my most dedicated fans now, where I try to be as personable and as loving with all my fans as I can. I would say my brand is sort of like a home for the weirdos. [laughing] That's what I provide. A little castle for us strange beings to run around in and the creatures.

Michael: Creatures.

Savannah: The creatures, exactly. Yeah. And then within that, I have my most dedicated fans, the ones who just want to talk to me all the time and the ones who are really, really engaged. I have a little group and they've bought a lot of my merch. They've given me a lot of great feedback. And because of that, I felt a lot more empowered to take this giant step. Bear in mind, I was still really scared to do that.

Michael: Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. I think that for most of us, the biggest obstacle or the biggest challenge we come up against is our own fear and actually putting ourselves out there. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that process of: when it comes to like the crowdfunding campaign, going into it, what would you say are the biggest challenges that you're running into, and how do you initially take that leap to decide to even start it?

Savannah: Yeah. I think you hit it right on the head that the biggest challenge is fear. And I think there's a lot of pressure. I also talk a lot about body image and a lot of different things as an artist, just things that I deal with that I try to talk a little bit more openly about just to make it a safe space for other people to talk about. And also, just to be a little bit more genuine because it takes a lot of energy to go out there on social media as an artist and pretend to be somebody else. I tried to do that for like a year in junior high school, and it was not effective. [both laughing] Ever since I was 14 I'm like: look, I'm just a weirdo. It's just who I am and you've gotta live in that. You've gotta celebrate that. I think for me, the biggest challenge was absolutely being really afraid and putting it off for a while cause I had wanted to do it for probably 2 years before I actually did. But I was really scared. I was like: nobody's going to care. It's going to look really arrogant to ask people for money for this. I was sort of waiting for the moment when I felt confident enough to do so. And I think that was really the biggest mistake that I made in retrospect. What really changed for me is: I was going through, like everyone, depression and stuff in the middle of the pandemic, just feeling really isolated. Mental health has been a big thing for me throughout my life and something that was very hidden because 10 years ago when you tried to tell somebody that you were feeling that way, they were like… there's a saying in Spanish [speaks in Spanish], “this we do not speak” and I think that really kind of encapsulates what I faced when I tried to talk about it before. I had been wanting, again, to write about that and to put that out there, but I was sort of waiting for the confidence to do it. And then a friend of mine took his own life. It really struck me and it was the last person I would have expected it from. And I've had several friends who've gone through it in the last year and a half. We've all lost a lot of people. I've lost several friends to this and it was always the people that I wasn't worried about and it really showed me that the stigma of being like: if I talk about this, people are going to think I'm crazy; they're not going to want to work with me; they're not going to like me; I need to be confident enough to just move past it, is really what kills people. And so I started writing about it and the conclusion I came to with my crowdfund was like, I can't remember who said this to me. [laughing] It's really funny. I remember it as an elderly Irish man, but I'm sure it wasn't, [both laughing] but that's what I'm going to hold it in my mind. But someone said to me: it's not about confidence, it's about vulnerability. Most people who put themselves out there aren't like, “I'm the best thing in the world”. I mean you have some who are like megalomaniacal narcissists, which isn't so great for mental illness, but that works for a lot of people in terms of their careers for a while. But in my case, it just made me realize it's just about being willing to be vulnerable rather than being like: oh, I'm so confident. And it was sort of pinpointing that difference that was really helpful to me. That's really what I was like: that's what this album is about. This album is about mental illness and taking on the stigma that surrounds talking about it, not just for people listening, but also for myself. It's like an exercise in taking that on for me. And hopefully in the process, making it safe for other people to talk about that as well and just not feel like it's the entire defining thing about them. So that's kind of how I framed the crowdfund. That's really how it took shape. I was super nervous about putting something that personal out there and making it all about that, but I honestly think that's really what appealed to people is because people can sense when something's really genuine. You can fake… I've watched a lot of those… not a lot, because I think they're really mean, but I've watched a couple of those artist competition shows, and I just always feel like it's some producer telling them what to say about what happened to them. To me, there's a difference between that and just being like: hey, this is genuinely really hard for me and this is what I want to do with it. And yeah, so I think that's honestly probably one of the main factors of what made the crowdfund successful is that it was just something that was really genuine. It was really about something. It wasn't just like: hey, help me get ahead in my career. It was like: hey, help me move through this and send this message out to the world.

Michael: That's amazing. Yeah, I mean, that's such a powerful message and a platform that you've built in multiple different ways. When you described your community and how it's a home for the weirdos or for the creatures, and when it comes to mental health and depression and sort of feeling the shame, or feeling that we have to hide something like that, it seems like that's such a powerful place for music to really come in and to bring us together and shine a light on some of those things that we feel like we have to repress or not really able to fully express. And so you've really created this voice for people that might not have had it within them, originally, to be able to express that, or at least they needed some external validation to be like: Hey, it's okay for me to be who I am. It's okay for me to be hurt or broken or depressed and be able to express that. So what a powerful movement that you were able to help facilitate.

Savannah: Thank-you. Yeah. Honestly, before I launched it, I was apoplectic. Because Kickstarter is an all-or-nothing platform. It's really harrowing. So my initial goal was $35K just to record the album and to do some of the videos. To me, that's a lot of money, and I was nervous about not reaching that goal. Thank goddess or Beelzebub or whatever, we far, far exceeded that. And so that was a really, really cool experience. There were people who gave good amounts of money, which was really surprising to me; Gave good chunks of money. And then also what really moved me is that there were people who really didn't have a lot of money who pooled together because they really love my work, or they really believed in the message. Usually a combo of both and they put money in. They got their friends together and put money in. That was the one that really hit me. I was just like: Oh, you guys. [both laughing] You got me right in the heart. Yeah. So pretty cool. Pretty cool.

Michael: That's so awesome. Yeah. Kickstarter, especially, it feels like it's probably almost like a trust fall, right? You start falling in and it's scary. You have to put yourself out there. When was the moment that you realized that: wow, that trust fall; there's people who are there to support you and that you were going to make it? What was that moment, and do you remember, what did that feel like?

Savannah: Yeah, it was actually the first day. So the launch day was the day that I raised the most money, and that's because I put in just an exorbitant amount of prep work. I learned through Modern Musician, I sought out people who knew what they were doing and just listened to them and adapted that to my brand; to my art. I'd been working with this company called: The Kickstarter Guy who'd been recommended to me by a friend and a filmmaker. They usually work with filmmakers. I'd gotten on a call with them and I said: hey, would this work for music? And they said: oh, hell yeah. So I started working with this lovely, lovely girl there, Melanie. She kind of just helped me along every step of the way. And so it was a long time; a lot of prep of reaching out to people beforehand. I built a whole team of people who are reaching out to all of their people. You know, just making sure I had a lot of support. People always talk about this like: Oh, I was an overnight success, but it's really it was a 10-year “overnight” success. It was 6 months of outreach and prep and organization to get that done, which is not natural to me. I'm not a very organized person, [both laughing] so I'm really proud of myself. The first day, that really started paying off with people's responses were just so overwhelming. I think we raised like $15k on the first day.

Michael: Wow.

Savannah: That was really when I was like: okay, well, if this is how it's starting, I think we're okay.

Michael: That's awesome. So, it sounds like this is something that wasn't just sort of like: Hey, like this is an idea. You put some serious strategy and work behind it in making sure that you reached out to your contacts, that you made it a success. So maybe now we can dive a little bit into some of the takeaways that you had or what you feel like really kind of moved the needle in terms of that process. If someone's listening to this right now and they're a musician who's considering, at some point, doing a crowdfund, what would you say are maybe 3-5 of the biggest overall phases or steps that you would recommend for them to be able to do it successfully?

Savannah: Sure. First, I would say the most important thing is to figure out what your messaging is and just have it be something that you genuinely care about. Not just: hey, I want to do something, like: hey, I want to do something because… And I would say that's probably the most essential thing is to know what it's about, and to care about it.

Michael: I want to just zoom in on that really quick cause I feel like that's so, so important. What you're saying is: it's really about finding the “why”, or the purpose behind it or the messaging or what's it all about. I feel like there's probably a lot of people who might be listening or watching this who are kinda thinking about their own lives and their own stories, and maybe this is a part that they really struggle with. They feel like: well, I'm not really that special; I don't have anything that unique about me; I don't really have a story to tell. What would your advice be for someone like that? Do you think that everyone does have something special that they can have as the “why” or how do you recommend that they find that, they really dive deep into their “why”?

Savannah: Hmm. God, that's so personal for every person. That's difficult to just throw out, conjecture-wise. I can really only speak from experience, which is, in my experience, I had to look at what this piece of work was about because every artist is making a body of work that has some kind of central theme. And then what does that theme mean to you and your life? And I would say that's how I found it.

Michael: Yeah, that's good. What comes to mind as we talk about this too is the artist's identity session; the artist's identity work that it's really all about looking at your own life and looking at your story, looking at who you are and identifying what were some of the major moments in your life or the biggest challenges or struggles or the most painful things that you've ever gone through, your greatest moments of joy. It's probably a process that's definitely personal to everyone. Everyone is different; everyone has their own thing, but at the same time, it's such a powerful way to drill in on our own purpose as being a musician overall. Right? It’s just like: why am I making music or why am I making this album? What is it for? Just asking the question “why” is just a really powerful way to go deeper into that. I've heard the idea before of doing like the three why's or the five why's where you just keep asking why, and when you get the answer, you ask why again. So it's like: why am I doing this? Well, because I want to get X, Y, Z. Well, why do you want X, Y, Z? Well, because I want to X, Y, Z. Well, why do you want X, Y, Z? Well, because I want X, Y, Z. Well, why do you want X, Y, Z? Well, because I feel this feeling of not enough this or it’s this feeling of wanting fulfillment or this feeling of wanting to contribute or provide. It almost all comes down to a feeling, right? Everyone has a different driver based on their experiences. Sorry to kind of cut you off and go like down a rabbit hole on this one point, but I think that that is such an important one that, for a lot of people, they might not fully take that seriously enough and so when they get started doing something, they don't really have a good purpose or good mission or motivation, and so it's just hard to communicate and really move people.

Savannah: Yeah. I mean, we live in a world where we're constantly trying to feel good. We live in a world that's at a dopamine level of 5,000 already just because it's a constant stimulus. And so to dive below that and to look at where everything comes from, it kind of sucks. [laughing] It wasn't a fun process to look at that. You know what I mean? Making an album about how I like wanted to kill myself isn't a great time in concept, but then once I kinda let that out, I was like: okay, I'm going to have a good time with this. A lot of my graphics were kind of fun. I was like: I have to have a sense of humor in this. I have to not take myself too seriously. I have to enjoy this process. So honestly, kind of by embracing what's difficult about it, it helps me to enjoy it. If that makes any sense. Also I was struck by what you said about worrying that you're not unique enough. I think there's also this perpetual struggle with terminal uniqueness that we have. [both laughing] And I've definitely gone through that a lot as an artist. Like I have to be the only one who's been through this, this, this, this, this, or else it'll be taken from me. And it's just, humans don't function that way. Maybe you're the edgiest lord in the world and you know you are kept in a secret dungeon in another universe that I don't know about by alien lords. [both laughing] Maybe you are a sci-fi hero, but for the most part, I think what actually is successful is just your take on something that is generally actually accessible to human beings, which is how they feel.

Michael: So good. All right. So we got foundation step number 1, really kind of drilling into the “why”, the motivation, what's what's this all about. What would you say is the next big step or the next big phase from there?

Savannah: Next big step was putting together all of my contacts from my entire life, essentially, and putting them together onto a big spreadsheet, organizing those contacts by who I knew well, who was just an acquaintance, who I didn't really know at all, I just had their name. Just kind of organizing people and writing little notes to myself of like: Oh, this is how I know this person. This is a memory I have of this person. That kind of thing. I would say that step 2 is really going through everybody that I know. Email is a big thing; if you have an email list, obviously you really want to utilize that, and you want to go through that email list and figure out what each person means to you. And then also, literally through your own personal email. I did that. Like most of us, I have 5 different email accounts and I went through all of them and saved all of the contacts that I had on there and then added them to that. I also went through my social media and looked through a lot of people on there and just kind of tried to remember. It's really about personalization, the process that I used which, again, credit to Melissa and the Kickstarter guy because they really introduced me to this whole concept. And so really I was just riffing on their script, you know? That was the second step is organizing people.

Michael: Super smart. I've seen this visualized in a few different ways, but just sort of this idea of like these concentric circles around where you are at the center of this circle. And then there's like concentric circles of the people who are the closest to you. A lot of times those people tend to be our family; our parents; these people who are so close to this concentric circle of: what does it mean; what makes you, you, and kind of going outwards from there. And it does seem like, especially with crowdfunding campaigns, that a lot of times like that concentric circle, the people who are the closest to you, those are the ones that really want you to succeed and really want to support you. A lot of times, not everyone. A lot of times people have very difficult relationships with their parents and whatnot. But also, I think it makes a lot of sense in terms of the way that we've organized the StreetTeam software and that we're really starting to lean into this way to create an inner circle and to break down these different tiers of your community based on engagement and just based on who cares the most; the most supportive. So you could have this just kind of provided to you on a silver platter. I'm really excited for a few months from now. Right now we're right now we're kind of adding in all this functionality with lookalike audiences and kind of creating these automated segments, but I'm just imagining like for you and for any artists who are kind of going through this process, having that kind of hand delivered segment of the audience and like: Hey, here's your top 5% of people in your inner circle that really care and really support you financially and through engagement and actually show up. It’ll be pretty cool. It sounds like the next step is just organizing, creating a big database/a big spreadsheet of all these contacts and thinking through notes for memories or specific moments that you can, you can bring up. What does the process look like a little bit more of that reach out process because I think probably the biggest fear or concern for a lot of people is: how do I reach out in a way that doesn't feel like I'm like nagging or annoying someone, but is in a way that doesn't make me look bad? Basically, people are so afraid of coming across as desperate or greedy or you're being vulnerable in that way. How do they overcome that?

Savannah: Well, I would say we're actually skipping a step. So I will get to that, but I would say that's more boards. What are we at?

Michael: We're at step number 2.

Savannah: The third step is getting that core team together. So that would be going out to the people who you think are your biggest fans, going out to people who you think just really care about your career, going out to people who are collaborating with you on this project, who have a stake in it as well, and saying: Hey, would you be willing to be a part of my outreach team? It's going to be like an hour of work a day, but for that I can offer you these things. So for that, for instance, I offered people an executive producer credit on my music videos. My music videos are a massive part of my calling card because I make them myself, and they're really artistic and high concept, so that's a big deal. You know, it takes years and years and years and a lot of money for people to get an executive producer credit on art that's going to be seen. So that was sort of my way, and also just obviously you'll be credited and have my internal gratitude and get to be a part of making this artwork happen and a thank-you on the album and all of these things. So just essentially making it really worth their time. And yeah, just offering people things that I thought would be really exciting to them and that I knew to myself to be really valuable. That was the thing: I had to believe those things were really valuable in order to have their time, and essentially they did the same thing. Then they went through all of their contacts. I said, can you copy my process: Go through your contacts, organize a list, we'll all be on a Google drive together, and we'll all have our lists there and we'll kind of go through this process together. So that was the third step.

Michael: Yeah, that's super smart ‘cause at that point, you're building a team of people who are invested and bought in and are helping to promote it at the same time, which creates more ownership over it. Super cool. And so the people that you built the team around, walk me through the breakdown of those people and the people who ended up being the core supporters of the Kickstarter campaign. Were they largely overlapping, or did you find the majority of supporters was also part of that core group? Or was it mostly people that everyone reached out to?

Savannah: It was mostly people that everyone reached out to. I had one person on my core team who gave a good chunk. But I mean for the most part, people who gave were people that I and my core team reached out to. For sure.

Michael: Cool! So the people who are part of this core team then, would you say that those were part of your inner circle like fan base for the most part?

Savannah: Yeah. I had several people who were part of my inner circle; my most dedicated fan base. Absolutely. I had a couple… let's see, trying to remember everyone who's on my core team. Yeah, I mean, it was almost entirely fans and then a couple people who are just like really good friends. I had 1 family member. I had people who are just really interested in seeing me succeed.

Michael: Cool. That's awesome. Okay. So now we've gotten through step number 3, kind of moving on to step number 4, which is that part about the actual reach out and maybe the fear or the concern around: what do I say? What's the right thing so I don't come across the wrong way? Any thoughts or advice when it comes to that?

Savannah: Yeah, I would echo what I said in the beginning which is: just be really genuine. For instance, I don't have a massive following on social media. I have around 12k, but that's enough for me to get a ton of messages from people asking me for stuff. And the thing that I had noticed was when people just sent me a link, it really turned me off. People who just sent me a link with no context or just said: yo check this out, or yo, support me. I was like: okay, that's really kind of abrasive to me, especially in a world where we're so inundated all the time. Meanwhile, the couple of people I knew, and it could be people that I didn't know very well, or oftentimes, I've had people reach out to me I didn't know at all who just had a personal message attached and it was really gracious. And that's what I always responded to. So for me, when somebody says: Hey, like this is really important to me, it would mean a lot to me if you would check this out, and it would make a big difference, that's what reaches me. So that's what I used in my outreach, which was essentially like: Hey, I put my heart and soul into this. I have this big goal. This is what it's about. If you could take the time to check this out, sharing on social media makes a big difference, and then if you can donate, it would mean the world to me. And that's pretty much it. It was fairly short and sweet. You want to throw in a couple selling points: My album's being produced by a pretty big producer, things like that. I have a couple accolades that you might want to throw in there just to show people that you're legit. For the most part, it was just the messaging and being very genuine in the sense of being like: Hey, this is what I need, it would mean a lot to me if you could help.

Michael: Isn't it crazy how just being genuine and being honest and vulnerable is like the thing that… and what's so funny too is how much easier is it to be that way than it is to have to come up with an elaborate, super produced way to express yourself, right? It's counterintuitively way easier to do it that way than it is to try to create some sort of impression and be someone that you're not.

Savannah: Exactly. It's sort of the opposite of the traditional sales mentality which, to me, comes off always a little bit scummy of just like: Hey, this is what we have, this is what we have, this is what we have, we're amazing, jump in on this if you don't wanna miss out. It is kind of the opposite. It's like: Hey, this is where I'm coming from, I'd love for you to be a part of it. 

Michael: Cool. Alright, so we've got step 1-4. Is there a step 5 or do you feel that kind of pretty well covers it?

Savannah: I would say step 4 sort of culminates in the fact that I wrote personalized emails to the people on my list. I wrote thousands of personalized emails and social media messages. I had those prepped to hit “send” on day 1. So that was a big, big part of the outreach. That's what I used my notes for. I was just checking in with them based on what I remembered about them. And then for the people who I couldn't remember, I just had on my email list. I'm not going to fake knowing who they are. So a couple thousand people just got pretty standard ones. But people I could remember got more personalized ones.

Michael: Because obviously there's a pattern behind it. So it's not like every single email is going to be completely like… it sort of has like a core structure to it, right? But then it sounds like a big part of it was creating personalization and creating customization along with that. So how did you fit that in in terms of that overall structure of reaching out?

Savannah: I just sort of opened the email with it just being like: Hey blank, nice to see you at the orgy last year. [both hysterically laughing]

Michael: I was wondering where you were going to go with that. I saw you cracking up before you said it.

Savannah: I'm totally kidding. No, I mean whatever. Nice to see you.

Michael: [jokingly] Those people, they show up for the crowdfunding campaign. They donate! That's the new strategy: Just go to as many orgies as possible and make a contact list. [both still laughing]

Savannah: No, it was like: Hey, I haven't seen you since my show a couple of years ago, but I really appreciated that you showed up. Hope all is well with you. And then just go right into it.

Michael: Awesome. That's so good. So with that, is there a step 5 you think that comes after? What does that look like?

Savannah: Yeah, I mean, step 5 is sort of maintenance which is a lot of work. Which is you keep following up with people personally throughout the campaign. You keep making it interesting for them. Every week, kind of have something new to talk about: Hey, we reached this goal; If we get to this, then I can do this; If we get to this and I can do this. Make it really exciting, so you're just not sending the same correspondence over and over. You want different things to say each week. Posting a ton on social media, having your team post a ton on social media and follow up with their contacts. For me, the thing that was really effective was texts and phone calls, actually, for people, especially personal contacts, of just reaching out personally and the same vibe just being like: Hey, I know you're super busy. No pressure. I just want to let you know this is what I'm working on. If you haven't seen it yet, it would mean a lot to me to check it out. And at the very least to share. That would make a huge difference. Reaching out to people that way, because people are so busy, there's so much going on, and everyone's getting asked to do 100 things. You donate to one political campaign, like I've donated to the Democrats like 4 times a year, and I get 500 emails from them. [both laughing] And I'm like: I know I'm trying to help. So it's that kind of thing of just making it reminding people gently that it's there and that you would appreciate it, but regardless, it's nice to talk to them, kind of thing.

Michael: That's great. Yeah. And it seems like one thing that you brought up a couple of times is always including the piece where 1, you’re reaching out and you're saying: Hey, like, there's no pressure here, but even just sharing on social media is something that's really helpful. So almost like giving them something that they can do for free without supporting, which, for a lot of people, I think if they are deciding between that versus supporting you, it's a nice option to give them, while I think for a lot of people they would rather support you and actually be a part of the campaign then go through and post about it. But some might do both as well, of course, but it just seems like that's a smart thing to add on to each of the reach outs.

Savannah: Yeah, absolutely. And then another great thing is: if you find anyone who's willing to put in like a chunk of money, like in the thousands, you can use that as a match week of being like: hey, if we get this many new donors this week, then this person will put in five grand or it could literally even just be a dollar that you put in, which is like at any amount counts. We just need 100 or 200 people to put in money this week. That was really, really helpful, really effective because most people aren't just going to put in a dollar. I mean, some people only have that and that still makes a big difference because obviously then you get the match cause you've made that deal with the donor. Cause there are people who are super into investing into this kind of thing, and they just want to see that it does well. So that was another thing I did is: before my campaign, I reached out to some people I knew who had money and it was like: Hey, would you be willing to do this if this. That kind of thing, cause people want a reason to do it, you know? I guess it was probably more… where are we on, 6 now? 5?

Michael: Yeah, I think we just wrapped up number 5.

Savannah: Okay, I'm gonna say 6 because 6 is follow-up. You want to make sure to thank everybody and follow up personally, and I'll obviously fulfill your perks cause that's how Kickstarter works is people get a certain amount of things. That's a lot of work getting stuff out to people. I kind of struggled with that in the beginning of being like: oh, I have to provide so many physical items in order to make this worth it. I was reminded by Melissa, look, it's really more about the art. People are celebrating your joy and being a part of the art so that's more what my perks were about.

Michael: That's so smart too cause that seems like that's probably one of the biggest mistakes or biggest challenges is that: if there's a feeling of fear around being enough or like the art being good enough or whatnot, then we might almost try to fill that gap with all this stuff and make it like all about the stuff and like: Oh, like you're going to get X, Y, Z; X, Y, Z and all this stuff, when really it's more about someone wanting to be a part of the project and support you and be a part of the artwork. And it's going to save you a ton of time and energy compared to fulfilling an overwhelm of stuff. That's great. So, it sounds like the last step, number 6, is really fulfillment and really reaching out and also thanking people personally. I remember I got a really nice message from you, Savannah. I was like: oh, that's nice! The beautiful thing about that too, is that it's so rare in today's society, or just in general as humans, we tend to be pretty selfish creatures for the most part. This is kind of part of our genetics, and it's very rare that someone just kind of reaches out, when they don't have to, just to say thank-you, I appreciate you. It feels great to receive a message like that. It also feels great to give out messages like that when you do it. So it seems like a really smart thing to do from day 1 is just kind of having that built in and knowing that you're going to be actually making that a part of it of thanking and expressing gratitude.

Savannah: Yeah, absolutely. Also, you never know when you might want to launch another one. Look, I'm with Richard Dawkins, I don't know that people give for nothing. [both laughing] My motives behind it weren't unselfish.

Michael: The selfish gene. Is that what Richard said, or is that someone else?

Savannah: Exactly. Yeah, that’s Richard Dawkins, that pure altruism doesn't actually exist, that there's always some motivation behind it. And that's true. My motivation behind it was 1) I wanted to feel like I had given people something; I wanted to feel accomplished. I was like: I want to feel good. I gave people something and assured them. And then also I wanted to just continue to have great relationships with people. I love having people in my life. That's a big thing for me. Also, it’s good business.

Michael: Absolutely. I think we're all selfish creatures. And so we all act selfishly, but our selfish actions are almost entirely driven by: what do we identify with; what do we identify as ourselves? And for some of us, we have a very kind of group community that we're a part of. That our identity is like: we are Americans. ‘Murica! or we are X, Y, Z, but really like our behavior is very selfish in whatever it is that we identify as ourself, which I think means that if we can really come together and recognize the interconnectedness between everything and realize that truly our greatest self is 1 being with everyone and that we're all connected, then that is a way that we can act selfishly, but by acting selfishly, it benefits all of us. Okay. I'm going to pull myself off there.

Savannah: I think you're totally right.Look, doing something kind, like there's always some part of you that wants to do that because it makes you feel good, and I don't think that's bad. I've never regretted just doing something kind, even if a person has totally fucked me over, which isn't to say that I don't advocate for myself and I don't draw boundaries, it's just saying: an initial kindness out of faith feels really good. And that's great.

Michael: Yeah, absolutely. All right, Savannah. So this has been awesome. Thank-you so much for coming on here and sharing your journey. Congratulations again. I’m just so proud of you. You deserve it. It's just so awesome to see what you've accomplished over the last few years, and this crowdfunding campaign is really a culmination, I think, of who you are and the work and your artwork, what you put into it. So it's really awesome to see it really creating these ripple effects. The last question for you is: if you had to go back… let's go back to when we first connected or maybe even earlier, when you were starting out in your music career, if you could kind of go back now and give yourself 1 piece of advice based on what you know now that you wish you knew back then, what would that advice be?

Savannah: One thing is: just do it. I think there was a lot of procrastination on my part early on in my career. So just do it. Don't worry about it being perfect. Just make it, and you'll be able to refine it. And secondly, I think probably what I said before is: don't wait until you feel confident enough to put it out there. Sometimes you're really not ready. You're not ready to put something out there, and that's okay. It doesn't feel safe for you, but if it does feel like it's something that you can be vulnerable about, then I'd say it's worth taking fully.

Michael: That's so good. Yeah, I think that that's one of the most powerful lessons that anyone can learn is that it's okay to not be perfect and just get started; put yourself out there and you'll learn as you go; you don't have to be perfect; you don't have to pretend to be perfect, and that's a great way to sort of counter that fear that we all have around being good enough or potentially failing and recognizing that failure isn't a permanent thing. Great, great advice.

Savannah, you're awesome. Thank-you again for coming on here. It's been great connecting with you.

Savannah: Thanks, Michael! 

Michael: In the show notes, we'll put links to your music and everything so people can go check it out. You totally should. Watch the videos too. That adds up. Now that you say you actually produce those yourself. That's incredible.

Savannah: Thank-you. 

Michael: They're really well put together. It's a great piece of art, so I highly recommend everyone go check it out. And yeah, Savannah, I'll talk to you again soon.

Savannah: All right. Rock on. Thank-you, Michael. And thanks for teaching me so many wonderful things. It's been quite a journey. It's been really cool. 

Michael: Yeeaaah!

Hey, it’s Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today, and if you want to support the podcast then there’s a few ways to help us grow.

First if you hit ‘subscribe’ then that’s make sure you don’t miss a new episode.

Secondly if you share it with your friends, on social media, tag us - that really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review it’s going to help us reach more musicians like you take their music to the next level. The time to be a Modern Musician is now, and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.