Matt Fawcett: My hope is that whatever I do in this life, it can help point somebody towards what they can do for somebody else. So that's for my kids, my family, my fans, anybody they interact with. I say this all the time when I go to play music at other places: I want everybody to have a good time, the fans, the booker, even the guy mixing sounds, the stage hands. If everybody has a great time and says: Wow, that was an awesome experience, then I feel like I won. And I think if we have that attitude as we go to everything in life, if I can make everybody win that I interact with, or take another step towards greatness for themselves, then that's a success and a win for me.

Michael Walker: It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician and it's only getting better. If you have high-quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

I'm so excited to be here today with one of my favorite human beings, Matt Fawcett. So Matt is from a small town in Ohio. He's gone from living in a small town, born and raised, to playing stages across America. He's a singer/songwriter, and a worship leader, and he focuses on connecting in a deeper way with his audience. He's someone in my personal life that has just been like a beam of constant positivity. You just radiate light and positivity, and I so appreciate that. Also just watching your journey as a musician and seeing the impact that you're making on your fans, you truly care about them. Hearing the stories of you connecting with these private shows that you play with your fans has been really inspirational. I'm excited to connect with him today to dive into that and you talk about what you're doing, Matt, and really about the value of building community and grassroots marketing and connecting in a deeper way with your fans. I think we're kind of at this point where in the past, in order to be seen as a successful musician, you needed to be a household name and be signed to a record label and have millions of fans and nowadays we have an opportunity where you can actually take your career into your own hands and you can connect in a really deep way with a smaller number of fans and you can have a very successful career. I think it's gonna be a really helpful conversation for artists to be a part of. So Matt, thank-you for taking time to be here today.

Matt Fawcett: Oh, for sure. Thanks for asking me. I appreciate you and saying all the nice things and just super thankful for you and who you are as a human being. A lot of people may see you on the podcast side or the video side and that sort of thing, but having actually met you in real life in person and been able to see you off script and off screen, you're just as real then, even if not more so and I just really appreciate the fact that you are who you are as a human being all around, and not just in front of others. So thanks for always being that light and being that person as well for me in my own personal life.

Michael: Thanks, man. I appreciate that. Well, how about we kick things off by maybe doing a quick introduction to your story as it relates to your music.

Matt: Yeah! 

Michael: I'd love to hear before you came across Modern Musician, where were you at in your music and what made you decide… How did you discover Modern Musician and what made you decide to really pursue your music full-time?

Matt: Great question. So I have been writing songs since I was a kid. I actually started off with just poems and my parents got me my first guitar cause I begged them for 3 things growing up: I wanted a go-cart, a skateboard, and a guitar. Every Christmas/birthday/gift giving holiday, it was those 3 things. I got the skateboard when I was like 5 or something like that, maybe 6. The go-kart never came, unfortunately, [Michael laughs] but when I turned 11, my parents gave me my first acoustic guitar. 3 weeks after that, I learned 3 chords and the youth leaders at my church were like; Hey, do you want to lead worship? I was like: Sure, I know 3 chords! [both laughing]

Michael: To be fair, when you learn 3 chords, you can do a lot with those three chords. If you've got four chords, now we're really talking.

Matt: That's right. So since that time, I'd been writing poems before that, and it was actually my piano teacher, because I took 7 years of piano lessons, that taught me how to actually marry chords with lyrics and actually write my first song. All throughout grade school, high school, college was playing music, writing songs and leading worship pretty much wherever. Went to work at a Christian camp for a while, did a lot of camp ministry stuff, leading worship there and then got a job working in music retail. Music was always been a passion of wanting to do it full-time, I just had no idea what the path forward was. I worked at the music retail job for about 8 years and, for me personally, it was just soul sucking. I was doing gigs, I was playing out at certain times, but I would get these gigs that would be like winery gigs on the weekend that were 3 hours of just playing in the background and I just felt like I couldn't truly connect with people. A lot of my music is meant to connect and take people on a journey, so it's just really hard. And then going to a job to support doing music stuff and feeling like I had so much pent up inside of me that I just didn't know what to do, and felt like I was just kind of decomposing from the inside. The good part was my family's always been super encouraging and very, very supportive of what I've done. I have a wife and 4 kids and I had taken a handful of different courses from other people in the industry about how to do shows better, how to try to connect with people online. Eventually I just said: all right, I'm done with the job, I'm jumping in with both feet, and I'm going to do this thing. I'm either going to do it or fail trying because this whole like halfway in/halfway out thing just wasn't getting it work. So that was 2 months before I found Modern Musician. My wife and I decided we're going to leave the full-time job and put in music. My parents live probably about 20 minutes away from us and I would go over to their house and I would sit on my computer and I would just try to do music full-time by connecting with people and posting stuff and just trying to figure stuff out. I had no idea what was going on. I believe it was actually a podcast that you had done with Rick Barker was where I first heard about Modern Musician. The whole virtual tour hacking resonated with me. I ended up going to one of the masterclasses and then talking with Ari specifically about getting involved with Modern Musician. My wife had seen me spend money on other courses before and they had resulted in very little to absolutely no results, and so I told her: I'm really hyped on this Modern Musician thing. It's more than I've spent on a course before, but I really think this is the answer. And she said: you can do it if you tell them “no” first. I said, what? She's like: if they say you have to pay now, then you're not allowed to do it. I said, okay! So I was on a phone call with Ari. I was super nervous cause I know deep in my heart that these are the people that I need to be around, the people that are going to help me succeed. And I told Ari: listen, I appreciate it. I really want to do this, but my wife and I really need to take some time to think about it. He's like: that's totally fine. When do you want to meet again, and do you want to bring your wife on the call next time so that she can kind of understand and see all this stuff? And I said: yeah that'd be great. Let me talk with her. And so we set a phone call for the week out. And as soon as I got off the phone, I called my wife and said; Hey, these are the people and we're going to totally do this. She said: okay! She's like: did you pay for it already? I said, no. And she's like: oh, well I kind of figured you were going to anyway. I was like, no, no, no. I told you that I was going to stick to the plan. So that's how I got involved with Modern Musician doing the Gold Artist Academy at the time and doing the coaching program, and it absolutely wrecked my life in such a good way. Not only owning up to what I need to do as a small business owner, but also getting the tools and the knowledge of how to do that in a very complex and lucrative or not lucrative, but fluid world. Cause the music industry is always constantly changing. The product is essentially you, and so you have to figure out a way to sell yourself to the people who really want to hear you, which it's an overabundance of noise and music that's out there, which is great. But finding a way to deeply connect with people is really the whole goal of what you're doing as a musician. Cause if it was just to create music, anybody can do that. In fact, we all do that anyway. But to do it and reciprocate that with having fans that actually support you and want you to do more of it, it's really where it goes from just being a hobby or something that you enjoy doing to really being something that's a mission, vision, and literally a career.

Michael: Oh man, that is so awesome. I don't think I actually knew all of the details of your journey leading up to that, but that totally rings true. How awesome that you had the relationship with your wife and the support of the people who are closest to you in your mission and your vision. Not everybody has that. For a lot of us, I feel like that can be one of the biggest challenges is feeling like you have this dream and maybe, you mentioned in your case, you've tried other things before and maybe they haven't all totally panned out and being able to rely on someone close to you that's still willing to believe in you and stick with it is amazing. So I'd be curious to hear: what's your secret? [both laughing] What's your recommendation for anyone who's listening to this right now who maybe they feel like that's a challenge for them is getting on the same page with a partner or the people that are closest to them who may or may not fully believe in their vision. I'm curious to hear what your thoughts are around that. How can I keep a vested role with the people who are most important in them, including themselves and their vision.

Matt: I think some of that comes down to: spend more time showing rather than telling. My wife and I have a very open communication between each other. We're very honest with each other in the way that we talk about what we want, what we desire, what we view our life as, what we'd like to accomplish. I think sometimes where I've seen it be more difficult is to go and try to convince, if it's something that I want to do like buy a motorcycle, which I did for 2 years for the first time in my life. If I spend more time just talking about it but not actually doing anything towards it or like prepping for it or saving money to be able to do that and I just talk about it and try to convince her that it's a good idea. I can see how that could be a rub for a lot of people. It's like, if you're not actively pursuing trying to do music full-time or working on getting… there's plenty of things that you can do completely for free that show that you're actively pursuing wanting to make music a career, but if you're not doing those things, you're not posting on social media, you're not trying to find opportunities, you're not trying to make connections with other musicians to support them and have them support you, then it's really hard. Because I really do feel like the people who are closest to you genuinely care about you; they really do want what's best for you and coming from being a parent side of things, if I see something that's potentially going to hurt my child, I want to try to protect and hold them from that. The music industry is not butterflies and rainbows where everybody's just cheering for you 24/7. There's a lot of hurtful comments and things that I've gotten from people just because I put my music on Facebook or Instagram. And so I think some of that comes from a protection side of things that people want to make sure that, because they love you, they don't want to see you fail. They don't want to see you hurt. And so if you kind of understand that that's probably the perspective they're coming from, you can see it from their point of view, but then also understand that like: Hey, like if you're starting to get mean comments online, understand that like: Hey, somebody else tried to warn you about that and they're going to try to help protect you as much as possible. So be honest and try to pursue and show what you're doing, more than just trying to convince with words like: Oh, I want to do this. I want to do this. I want to do this. Because there were multiple times where we've had friendships/relationships, all of us have, where we said like: yeah, like I'm just, I'm going to buy that car. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. And we never do. [laughs] It's just kind of like: well, I don't want to get 100% behind your dream if that's really what you want to do, if you're not going to actually pursue it or go after it.

Michael: Yeah. Oh man. There's so much gold in there. I think the life principle of leading by example and the idea that who you are speaks louder than what you say is so important and it seems like what you just shared is an angle of that statement: who you are speaks louder than what you say. As Gandhi put it: be the change that you want to see in the world. There's kind of an internal shift that can happen, and when you make that shift, then people generally can sense it and they can feel it. They can feel that you've actually made a real decision and that you're showing up and that you're being that person. Which leads me to another point in your story that I think is really powerful which is: that moment that you say that you decided instead of just putting your foot in the water, kind of being in and out with your music, that you said that there was a moment that you basically decided: Oh, I'm going to make this happen and I'm going to go all in on this. So I'm curious for you what that moment looked like and if there was anything specifically that led you to that moment where you made that decision, and how you felt during that and kind of what was the effect immediately after you made that decision?

Matt: Yeah. So it was a combination of a lot of different things. The job that I had, as helpful as it was financially, and my wife was the one that saw this too, it really did affect me as an individual of just soul sucking. Everything that I was trying to do to get ahead and to do that job well ended up coming back and, in some ways, not being helpful. And so there were a lot of different things there to where it was really the question of: if this is as good as it's going to get, is this really what I want to do the rest of my life? And some of that came because of COVID. When COVID happened, we all got sent home. We were working from home and I could see my kids. I could have lunch with them. I saw them more often. I could have dinner. I could easily shut my computer off and go downstairs and see them for a quick break instead of going to double up on caffeine for the 3rd time that day, I could go give my son a hug. Realizing if this is as good as it's going to get, and I still feel like I'm just barely surviving mentally in doing this job, and I feel like I'm missing out on what I'm really called to do, then I need to stop pretending like I'll be satisfied doing this the rest of my life. And so it took a lot of conscious decisions to be made in discussions with my wife, and also financially. We made sure it was not just a split second decision of: screw you workplace, I'm going to do this thing! It was very much a calculated risk, but it was a calculated risk because the unknown of leaving that job, though as scary as it was, had the infinite potential to be a much higher ceiling than what I already knew the ceiling was. I wasn't happy with where the ceiling was and what I was currently doing, and I knew I could actually go and help a lot more people and connect with a lot more people on a deeper level if I chose to do something that potentially, again: without great risks, there's no great reward. It really was kind of a sigh of relief when I decided: okay, I'm going all in on this. I'm just going for this. It was a huge sigh of relief knowing that I actually felt like I was aligned with what I was called to go and do. And yet at the same time, there's still that gnawing fear of: I just hosed my entire family. [laughing] But the reality of that is, again, if the known still wasn't what I wanted and still wasn't where I felt like I was supposed to be, I can always go back to that known or a similar known, but I would rather continue to risk and go for a much greater ceiling of what I can potentially give back to the world/give to other people than to go back to a situation where there’s “security”, and I put that in air quotes because we've seen enough post-COVID to where the standard job really isn't as secure as we always thought. If I'm going to call out my kids as they get older and say: Hey, your mom and dad want to support you and what you want to go do, you do what you're passionate about and what you're created for, and we'll help you figure out a way to make a living doing it. I knew with 1 question, my kids would be able to look at me and say, “yeah, but dad, you didn't” if I didn't take this risk. And that really was the linchpin of knowing like: Hey, here's the ceiling, and if this is what I want to be able to tell my kids. And with one question of just saying: dad, you can encourage us as much as you want to, but if you weren't willing to take that risk, why should we? I kind of, at that point, knew that for the sake of my kids and the sake of everybody that I had the opportunity to be able to influence, I needed to be willing to take a leap of faith and then continue to walk by faith every single day cause that's usually what people look at is they look at like: Oh man, that's so crazy. You left your full-time job and you didn't know what you were doing afterwards. Oh, that takes so much faith. I was like: Yeah, but you could easily make that as 1 stupid choice. Anybody can leave their full-time job real quick, but it's the daily get up and continue to walk every single day without running back to what we think is security, that really is the testament of whether or not you truly believe in what you're doing. And I'm not saying that people should never look for a part-time job or go back to a full-time job to help with finances and that sort of thing, but if you truly want to prove to yourself that this is what you're all in on there, you have to have that honest conversation, even mentally, and with your spouse, your family, other people who are involved, just be like: hey, like, this is plan A. And if this is plan A, then we're going to figure out how to make it work. There's a really good YouTube video called The Last Lecture, and in it, he talks about how there's walls or barriers or hurdles, and those walls, barriers, and hurdles are in the way, not for you, but for everybody who doesn't deserve where you're going. Well, if you've somehow placed that there's going to be a wall or hurdle that's going to be insurmountable that when you get to that point, you're not going to be able to make it round, you might as well just go to Plan B because you've already told yourself that there is going to be a challenge that you're not willing to try to figure out. If you give yourself permission to constantly say: I'm going to figure this out and there will be no challenge that I'm not going to figure out how to get around, you basically unlock your mind and your mentality to go after every single one as: these are not these are not hurdles for me, they’re opportunities for me to figure out how I can be where I need to get there.

Michael: I started to feel emotional when you're talking about the realization you had with your kids and sort of realizing that staying in a job that felt soul sucking and that allowed you to provide for them but meant that you were not happy and not living in congruence with who you wanted to be, seeing that that would actually have a negative impact on their lives and them achieving their own dreams is such a powerful motivator. The idea to go all in and give it a shot, being willing to have courage, to basically go into the unknown, is a decision that all of us have to make. If you are making a decision to start building a music career, you kind of have to take that step at some point. And so it's really helpful hearing that story. I think it's going to be inspiring to a lot of people. In your story, you had a bit of an opportunity, and all of us experienced COVID, unfortunately, and I think a lot of us had that sort of realization during COVID where it was like: wow now we have space and we get to have some more flexibility in terms of: who do we want to be? What do we want to do with our time? Now, in some ways, we've been able to fall back into a rhythm in terms of our normal lives. I'd be curious to hear your perspective, for someone who might be listening to this right now, who maybe they're in a similar place to where you were with your job, where maybe they're working somewhere that maybe to them does feel soul sucking, or even if it's not quite as severe, it just feels like they know this isn't really what they want to do for the rest of their lives, and their music is something that they are passionate about, but maybe they've tried out a few things and it hasn't totally panned out yet and they're looking for a way to take a smart risk and be able to actually give their music a shot. I'm curious what your recommendations for them would be in terms of: how do you go all in when maybe you are currently relying on this other job at the same time.

Matt: Great question. Probably the best way to do that is to purposefully partition your time. So most of the time when we've got standard rhythms of life and things, we get up, we eat breakfast, we take a shower, workout, whatever, go to work, come back, and especially if you have a job that's draining and whatever you're doing, the best thing you can do is figure out how to get up at 5 am. in the morning. And honestly, I didn't do that. And I was never a morning person. I was the stereotypical: I'm a musician, I stay up till 2 am. I'll get up whenever the sun glistens my eyes or whenever my employer says you're fired if you don't get here by then. I'll get up at that point in time and do it. But really, the first part of taking ownership of really wanting to do something outside of your norm, is to cause yourself to start making smart sacrifices that affect you and you alone. It's really easy to look at sacrifices of: well, if we didn't have Netflix and if we didn't have Disney+, or we didn't have all these other different things that I had to pay for, then I could spend more money on training, or ads, or this subscription for my music stuff, or doing another single. But all those are sacrifices towards the family and towards other things.

Michael: Money and time too, if you really think about it.

Matt: Yeah. 100%. Yeah. And so when you start looking at what can I sacrifice? I can sacrifice not sleeping in, and getting up early to work on the stuff that you're passionate about so that when you are exhausted from the job you come home from, you're not giving what's left to that, so you can put in your purposeful time in the morning towards what you're passionate about. And that's where I'd start. It may seem weird to say, but the best thing you can do is literally get coaching on where the smart moves on what to do next. Modern Musician’s really, really good at that specifically, but if you only have a limited amount of time, so if you only have an hour or 2 hours a day where you can actually dedicate, so if you take them 5 am till 7 am before you have to go to your day job or whatever else you're doing, you want to make sure that those 2 hours are not you posting one thing on Instagram and then scrolling the next hour and a half and all the other things and get a bunch of ideas. Being very, very malicious about how you spend your time and specific about it. One of the things I do is I have a remarkable, and it literally allows me to put a calendar on there. I write everything down. I have my to-do list and I make sure that those are the things I go after because as soon as we get into passive mode with our time, we think we're not hurting anybody, but really what we're doing is we're hurting ourselves because passive time, where we just let it pass, we're not utilizing the moments that we have to make the biggest impact that we could. So be intentional about how you're spending your time, make the risks and the sacrifices towards yourself to spend the time on what you want to, because your time's always going to be required somewhere else. Even if you work for yourself with music stuff, I'm still a husband, I'm still a father, we still volunteer at our church, there's still friends that call up and say they need to move and they need somebody with a pick-up truck and a strong back. There are other things that are always going to ask of your time. If you figure out how to start blocking it and sacrificing your free time or your chill time towards what you're really passionate and working on, that'll start opening up the doors to where the bigger risk will make more sense because now you're spending a lot more time and a lot more effort on one thing you're truly passionate about, and you're starting to see positive things happening. You're starting to see wins that are coming. Finance is coming through there. You're starting to book gigs that are actually making you money. But that's not going to happen if you just think about it. You have to actually start putting time and effort towards it.

Michael: Absolutely. Yeah. Time, gosh. This is probably one of the most valuable habits in my entire life is this practice of everyday looking at my to-do list and assigning my top three most valuable tasks to do, and blocking off the very first 3 hours of my day to only do those tasks. And it's so simple, but if that's all you do, then you're like in the top 0.5% because you're actually prioritizing your time and doing that first thing first, before you open up your phone and scroll on social media; before you open up your email. If you can actually block off those first few hours, it's so valuable. It does seem like there's a lot of wisdom to the idea that time passes the same for everybody, regardless of who you are or what you're doing. Time passes the same way. We have this many hours in a day as anyone has: Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk. Therefore the difference is how we spend that time, and how we utilize that time and focusing on those key leverage points, because there's the same amount of time, but it's how you focus and prioritize that time. It’s such a valuable lesson to do that time blocking. I love what you suggested too in terms of, for anyone that feels like you don't have enough time or you're working a job that kind of pays the bills right now, and right now your music is sort of like what's left over after you're kind of exhausted from the day. Intentionally deciding you're going to wake up 2 or 3 hours earlier and then doing the focus blocks before you go do that. Awesome piece of advice.

Matt: And honestly, like, because I was somebody who considered themselves a night owl, that is one of the things that it was always a limiting belief of: well, I'm only really creative when it's later at night and that sort of thing. The more that I've been getting up at 5am, the more I'm realizing: if my mind is fresh and I'm intentional about getting things done, man, I'm a lot more creative when my mind is fresh. I'm more so creative, even more than when I was super late at night. That was just a thought of: well, that's just how I've been in the past. I've always been creative then. It's amazing when your mind is fresh, how much more creative you are and everything else, because you're giving your brain a chance to actually work on everything that it's been thinking about. And when it's free and open and actually gives you an opportunity to have time to do it instead of sacrificing sleep on the backend, it's amazing how much you can accomplish and how much more creative you are.

Michael: Yeah, that's a great point that even if you feel like you're a night owl or that's how you've identified, it doesn't necessarily mean that that's who you actually will be in the future. It doesn't mean that you can't wake up early. I had the exact same experience. I used to stay up until 3-4 am, but maybe that's just a part of being a teenager: you stay up all night and do stupid things, and then feel not good the next day and you don’t realize it’s because you didn’t get any sleep. [both laughing] I had the same journey where I was a night owl and I think that's pretty normal in the music industry. When I started waking up early, it was amazing. In terms of my actual creativity and my output, my productivity, it shot through the roof. I do think there is such a thing as willpower is like a muscle in that you go to the gym and you can work it out. And you know, after you're exhausted, it's certainly possible to do stuff afterwards and to focus on it, but it's sort of like trying to lift weights after you've lifted weights throughout the entire day and you're feeling a bit tired and exhausted, and it's just hard to be most efficient when you aren't rested up.

Matt: Yep. My dad actually, he and I were talking about decision fatigue and some different things with economics this past weekend. He had even brought up: there was a study done about a parole agent and they went over thousands of different decisions that he had to make, and the only key factor on whether somebody got parole or not was not the severity of the crime, who they were, any demographic other than: how close was it to the beginning of the day and how soon after lunch was it. So if it was the beginning of the day, they were more likely to get parole as it got closer and closer to lunchtime or whatever, it would go down to 0.

Michael: Sorry, I’m losing you a little bit here, I'm assuming that probably our folks here in discord might've lost you for a bit too, we probably have it on the podcast itself. We lost you when you're starting to talk about how you're talking with your dad and basically there was an insight that the decision for parole, whether someone gets parole or not. So if I understand it right, this is a trial or basically a place where people can get an opportunity to leave and there's an officer that decides do you get parole or not?

Matt: Yup. And it literally was based off of if it was towards the beginning of the day or right after lunch. So the beginning of the day, right after lunch, you were probably going to get it. The closer it got from the beginning of the day to lunch, it went down to 0. And the closer it got to closing time or the end of the day, it got to 0. And all of it was because of just decision fatigue, and when those things came across his desk. And so the whole idea of working out and then trying to do stuff, it's how our bodies are made. It's how we're designed. Some people handle it better than others, but think of it this way: if you handle it really, really well when you're not at the optimum spot, think of how much better you'll do when you are at a higher optimum level of cognizant ability and having a fresher mind in the morning. You'll just be that much better.

Michael: Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah. I mean, the same thing kind of applies to multitasking. I feel like we're pretty good at deceiving ourselves and the thinking that we're getting more done by multitasking, but there's just mounds of science that shows it's not the case. It's one of those illusions that we can play on ourselves, that we're actually being more productive by doing multiple things at the same time, but what they found is that it's not even close. You're way more productive if you focus on one thing at a time. When you multitask, you just wreck your ability to effectively do things.

Matt: Yep. 100% .

Michael: Yeah, that's so interesting about this decision fatigue too. I remember hearing a study that was the exact same thing you're talking about. It's interesting, both as it relates to decision fatigue, they have to make decisions, and as they near their limit, it's easier just to say no, then to say yes and make a mistake. It's less risky to say no then to say yes and let someone out. And also the relationship between lunch and taking a break and kind of refreshing. Yeah, it's also a plus one to: maybe we can figure out some systems to automate the process a little bit more with AI. [both laughing] Maybe an AI judge would actually be a little bit more fair in some cases versus someone where it's literally a curve where it's based on the time of day that you get parole. At the same time, you don't want the AI to make a mistake. Similar to self-driving cars, right? It seems like they're at a point right now where basically they would be safer than human drivers, if we just said: all right, like we're all going to do it; we're doing self driving cars now. We're at a place where you could basically say yes to that and significantly less people would die because of it. But it's a tricky one because if the AI makes a mistake, then that's a big issue because it wasn't your fault, whereas with human drivers, you might be able to say: well, this person was under the influence or they weren't paying attention, they were on their phone. When do you draw that line of feeling: okay, it's worth the trade off?

Matt: Well, and to that point, think of it this way: every single time an AI or a self-driving car messes up, it's like: oh, well this is why it'll never work! Yet, how many car accidents do we have every single day? And some of that comes out as like, all right, are we really trying to find the best way to make it work, or are we just trying to find the one way that that way that we don't like doesn't work?

Michael: Yeah

Matt: I think that correlates back to music so quickly to where as soon as we get one “No”, it's like: yep! This is the reason why I could never do it. It's not gonna work out because this one person said my voice sucked on Facebook. [Michael laughing] Are you looking for ways to validate that it's not going to work? Or are you looking for ways to validate that it could? Cause again, you have your license and everything else, and we have ways to license drivers to make sure they're safe as they can be, but if we found a safer way for people to be able to commute, would we be willing to give up that power of our own pride of doing it ourselves for the safety of others? I don't know. It's interesting.

Michael: It's definitely interesting. In a similar vein, one thing that I started doing, and this has been a really valuable life habit for me, is at night I have a cell phone lock box and at 8 o'clock at night, my alarm goes off and I throw my cell phone in a lock box and I lock it away. Technically there's an emergency code, or if I really needed to get to my phone, I can use it three times total. But after I use it 3 times, it's gone forever. So I don't use that code. It's been really helpful for me to basically just take it out of my hands and, especially our cell phones and social media is extremely addictive and hard to to set boundaries. For me, that's been a really helpful way to take it out of my hands. It's sort of an acknowledgement of setting boundaries around myself where I want to make sure that what I want to have happen is inevitable, or just happens on its own. That can be a challenging thing to let go of that control, like as it relates to cars, or maybe as it relates to AI for musicians and using it as a tool that can help supplement your creativity. In some ways it feels challenging to let go of certain bits of control. If instead we reframe it and understand that you can actually use this intentionally and you can actually use it to achieve your goals or use it to achieve an outcome, and as long as you're doing that, then it's just a tool and it's helping you to go from point A to point B.

Matt: Well, yeah. And even thinking of it that way too: I'm letting my stronger self in the mindset that is thinking the most clearly make decisions for when I'm going to be at my weakest. So the same thing as to why I don't want to have candy all over the house because I know that when I'm munchy at night, I am totally going to find exactly where it is, no matter how well I hid it. And because we have small children where you have candy all over the house. But if you lock it out; if you were thinking the most clearly, and you thinking the most clearly dictates decisions for when you're not going to be thinking the most clearly or when you're going to be decision fatigued, that's only going to help you. You're relinquishing control to your better thinking self at that point in time. It’s the same reason why you want to set out your workout clothes before you go to bed the night before, because when you wake up at 5 am, the first thing that you're going to think of is not: [puts on a bad accent] Oh, I need to go find my gym shorts and go get my shoes on so I can go for a run. The first thing you're thinking of is: I don't really want to get up. I would rather stay here. This is comfortable. And we want to go towards comfort, but comfort is not going to actually allow you to explode into your potential. My sister, who's a Marine, I asked her because she will go on 26 mile runs for fun, because that's what Marines do. I'm like, how do you do that? And she's like, honestly, she's like, it's just the mentality of “embrace the suck”. I know during, it's going to suck. I know after, it's going to suck. It's going to hurt. I'm going to be in pain, but I want to do it. I'm just going to embrace how much this sucks and own it all the way through. I’m like: Oh, that also is the reason why I'm not a runner yet, but that is one of my goals this year. By the end of the year, I will be a runner because I want to teach myself to embrace the suck. Because that will apply to everything in your life. If you start looking at things you don't want to do with anticipation of: I don't want to do this because it's going to be uncomfortable, but I know I have to go through this to get to be the person I want to be, or to get where I want to go. I want to embrace those things as this is now who I am instead of: “eh I just got to figure out…” because then you're just skirting the system of: well, I’ll just barely make it through. No! I want to crush whatever I have to in order to be able to get to the point where I can reach more people with music, connect with more individuals, save more people's lives just by being who I am and sharing truth and joy and peace with them. But if I'm always constantly just kind of like: “ah, I guess I kind of have to do this”, am I really putting forth the best effort that I can in order to be able to really reach the people that I need to, or am I just barely making it? I would rather crush everything that I have to in order to get there as quickly as possible. And again, that's a mentality thing. That's me in my higher thinking being like: this is what I want to do. All right, so how do I put things in place to make sure that when those tough things come up where comfort is going to be the easy option but not the right one, that I deny myself that and go after and embrace the suck of: Yep, but this is who I am now, so here we go.

Michael: Oh, man. So good. Yeah. That seems that a huge lever point is that concept of learning how to appreciate and, the way you put it, embrace the suck or other ways to think about it, like embrace the challenge or embrace the discomfort, stretching your comfort zone. These are all a core habit of the most successful people is that they've learned how to embrace the challenge. One of my favorite quotes was that life is hard if you live it the easy way, and is easy if you live it the hard way.

Matt: Yup!

Michael: A lot of these “sucky” or “challenging” habits or those things, they are challenging at first. Becoming a runner, going for a 30-minute run in the mornings is challenging at first, but if you do that in the short-term, it's hard, but then you keep doing it, it actually gets easy, and it actually just feels awesome. You actually can really learn to enjoy it and that ripples out across your whole life. I love that the way that you just shared that as: I am going to be a runner. That's my identity. I'm going to become a runner and I could just tell that you're going to make it happen. I used to feel that way totally when it came to running and now I love running and it's just something I do every morning that I'm not at the gym with my personal trainer. One app that was super helpful that I got started with was called Couch-5k.

Matt: Oh, yeah.

Michael: It's an app on your phone and it just creates a schedule for you. It starts you out really easily. I think you run for 5 minutes or something. The idea is it takes you from the couch to running your first 5K. I just remember that being a really helpful resource for me as I was starting to get to become a runner and now it's one of my favorite habits. Part of why I did it was because I saw the research around running and the benefits that it had, more than just your physical benefits, which obviously it has physical benefits, but it was more around the emotional benefits and the mental benefits. There's been a bunch of science. There's a book called The Spark that really goes deep into this, but around going for walks and going for runs, it has a huge impact on your brain's neuroplasticity, and your ability to learn. It seems like that's one of the reasons that a lot of successful entrepreneurs and people, they have running as a part of their daily habits. So, yeah, I want to honor you for that the decision to embrace the suck in your life and take on that habit.

Matt: Yeah, and that's a lot of what I've learned from you too, is literally just: if you want to become… There's so much work that has to be done behind the scenes on you as a person before you're ready for the success that's coming. It doesn't mean that the success can't come early, but if I don't become a runner and learn how to embrace that suck and I become more successful or I get to the next level of whatever I'm working on, I'm mentally not going to be anywhere near as prepared to embrace the challenges that are on that level if I'm not already mentally getting my brain to that mentality level before I arrived there. I think that goes back to your quote too. I'd rather do things hard that I'm making hard, than to have life be hard on me because I was just trying to find the easiest way possible to do everything.

Michael: So there's one one topic that I would love to dive in with you, Matt, since I've heard your stories around the relationships that you've built with your fans and the ways that you've changed their lives. We talked about at the beginning of this podcast: there's sort of this shift in mindset or just reality in that you don't need a record label anymore to be a successful musician. You don't have to be a Taylor Swift to be a successful musician. And to even be a 6 or 7 figure musician, you can build your own music career and, and you can impact fans lives directly. I think one of the things that I really appreciate about you, and admire about you is how well you embody this grassroots focus on connecting with your fans. I'd love to hear your perspective around what we were just talking about right now around that shift, and, for you personally, since deciding to go all in on your music career and deciding to make it a decision to actually to not to be like half in/half out, but actually going in on it. I'm curious what you found as the biggest learning lessons and maybe challenges along the way, but what you've learned from it.

Matt: Yeah! So as far as finding your people, again, I think that comes into the mindset of: it's okay for people to hate my music and like I literally mean it. It's okay for people to literally think that mine is the polka-pop version of whatever music that they absolutely despise because if I'm trying to make music for everybody, I am literally going to alienate everyone! I'm going to miss all of them. If I make music specifically for the people that I'm trying to reach, I'll have a greater chance of actually reaching those people. And realizing that I don't have to have a bunch of people love me in order to be able to make this a career. I just need to make sure that the people who this is going to impact the most, it truly is the highest value that I can ever serve them. And that mindset and mentality of realizing it's about them, like your music career is literally about your fans. Literally finding, in some level, a leader for the way that they see and walk through life. They need a community leader to be: Hey, I know we struggle with this, I know we're walking through this, but this is how we're going. This is how we're going to walk through it together. I mean, think of it, some of your best friends that you've ever had in your life are going to be people who not only celebrated you with the good times, but they also walked with you through the hardest times you've ever faced and that's what you label as a good friend. And being an independent artist literally is being that friend through music for other people. If I can view my music as the friend that walks with people through the life they're already going to live, I'm going to connect with a lot more people in a much more tangible way than to just say: okay, well, I'm just going to write this for radio or I'm going to write this for here or there. It allows me to be a lot more personable with my music. It allows me to connect a lot more deeply with people. After understanding that piece of: it's about them, it frees you up to be creative on how you help people. I've taken phone calls from fans directly that they've called me because the number I text them on, and I've just talked with them for an hour or two because they were going through something and they needed a friend to talk to. Now, granted, there are a lot of people that love my music that are hurting individuals, and you have to know your bounds too. There are multiple times where I've pointed people towards I think 988, which is the suicide prevention hotline.

Michael: And when you say hurting people, you mean like they're going through challenges in their own life. They're hurting. Not necessarily that they're violently hurting others.

Matt: [both laughing] Yeah, no, they are going through something painful themselves mentally most of the time, and they just don't know how to deal with it, and unfortunately for them, they're in a place where they don't have a community. And the crazy part is some normal guy from Ohio decided to put his music up online that reached out in a way that was palatable enough and was honest enough to where they felt comfortable reaching out to a complete stranger through a phone call to bare their soul. That is a super humbling and honorable position to be in. To have fans that are like that, and then to realize that if they put that much trust in me I need to honor that trust and do what's best for them as well. The crazy part is: I've had a lot of fans that I've walked that path with them and again, there's a lot of things that I can't help with. My goal is to point people in the directions and be more of a signpost. Because as an artist, I can help point people in the right direction, but I can't be like that person for everybody, and I think every artist needs to come to that conclusion. There's no way that you can walk everybody through every single trial, but you can be the light and the hope that points them in the right direction on the right path so they can get the help that they need. And thankfully, a lot of those people who've called me, whether it was with a bottle of pills in their hand or with guns in the house, have taken the right steps to be able to do that. And I don't count that as because of anything specific I did other than I was just available. I was willing to bear my soul out and be honest with people and enough for them to be able to do the same thing back with me. And then to honor that trust by saying: okay, I'm going to continue to walk this path because I'm all in on this. I can't imagine now having gone halfsies on my music career up to this point, realizing that there's several lives that wouldn't be here any longer if I wasn't willing to take the leap of faith that I did, and the continual walk of faith every single day. And that just juices me up to say: cool, how can I be that for the next person? How can I write the next song that can impact somebody in a way that points them back to where they need to go so that they can keep living and breathing? Ultimately, my key phrase is to comfort the afflicted and confront the comfortable. I believe that if I'm doing music well, I can comfort people who are walking through affliction, whatever that looks like for them, but then those same people, as they've walked through that, as they've been comforted through it, will then turn around and see all that affliction and everything they've walked through as an opportunity for them to go after other people and comfort them. And not just say: cool, now that I have comfort myself, I'm just going to camp here for the rest of my life. It's more: now that you've made it here and you've been comforted and you've seen people wrap their arms around you, how can you go be that person for somebody else?

Michael: Dang, dude, that is some powerful stuff. The world is such a better place for having Matt Fawcett.

Matt: Thank-you.

Michael: Yeah, I think the last question here that I'd love to wrap up with is: for a lot of us, I think as musicians, especially early on, there's a stage you have to go through where you don't necessarily have the validation yet from other people, from fans necessarily. Maybe it's friends and family who kind of have to support you, and you haven't necessarily had that experience where you've realized the impact that your music is making on fans. I’d like to hear you talk about your own journey. Did you ever experience that sense of self doubt or: am I good enough, and any particular moments/experiences that you had where you realized fully: wow, like this is the impact that my music has had. I know you just shared a couple of them in terms of people calling you up on the phone, but I'd be curious to hear other specific moments that come to mind.

Matt: Yeah, I think that doubt, as far as an artist, “am I good enough” is a daily battle between our ears where it's like: man, I hear all this other stuff that I love. Oh, that just sounds perfect. And that sounds amazing. I aspire to that. And then I listened to my own stuff and we're always going to be our biggest critic. I think one of the most helpful things that I ever learned was actually from a professor back in college that said: most projects are never finished, they are abandoned. So you may get to the end of your single and think: Oh, but I could do one more. I could do one more. I was actually forced to do this because of some different circumstances, the calendar year, the last song that I did. I had two days to write, record it, and release it. Now granted, if I was a much better musician and I was planning ahead, I wouldn't have been in that situation, but that's the situation I was in. And so my thought process was: how do I write a song that's going to meet people where they are, and help them walk through the holidays through Christmas and the chaos of what it is and actually enjoy it? And instead of viewing the chaos as: oh, this isn't perfect, as man this is life. Because at some point in time, the kids are going to be grown and gone. Time's going to pass away and the chaos that we used to hate, are going to be the memories that we so deeply adore and enjoy and wish for again. Being forced to be in that role: I have to write this and it's got to get done because I committed to it, made me write, I think, not one of the best Christmas songs ever written, but probably one of my best songs to date. But I also believe that my best songs aren't written. The best song that I'll write is going to be the next one, and as soon as that one's written, it's going to be the next one. If you're an artist who hasn't found validation outside of friends and family or the people that “have to”, just understand that finding your community takes time because you have to understand yourself and what you're writing in order to be able to find the people who are going to love it and enjoy it. And that's okay. Don't allow the critics because everybody can be a critic and everybody is a critic on some level, but don't allow those critics to be the 1 person that keeps you from finding your community. Because everybody can be a gatekeeper for every single community out there by saying: Oh, nobody's going to like this. All this. I had that literally 3 weeks ago. Somebody told me that I shouldn't quit my day job and never do music again. Like, well, already did! [both laughing] But you can either look at that and be like: Oh, well, they're right. Going to give up, or just be like: my music's not for them. So it's not for you. It's for somebody else. It comes back to: you can't please everybody, so don't try. But look at really just allow your music to be a service towards the people it's supposed to be for. And it may take you some time finding out who those people are, but that's part of the journey and the fun of it. For the longest time, the music I wrote I didn't want it to be for the Christian radio Becky caricature because I wanted to be for something more, do this or whatever. Guess what? My biggest fans are the caricature of the Christian Radio Becky. I appreciate, and I love those fans so much more now because of realizing the person that I needed to change in order to be able to accept who I can help. If I wasn't willing to take on that role, like: no, I have to make music for somebody else. Then sure, I could try to force it. But ultimately like finding your community is using your created giftedness and how you're created to basically find what you're good at, and what you love and you enjoy, and marrying it with how you can serve people. And when you find those 2 things together, that's what allows you the opportunities to be able to have those life saving conversations with people, to be able to make a true impact on the world because of your music, because you're serving people where there's a gap that they need. And that's where I think music will never have the greatest hits album that solves everything because all humanity needs different people to be saying things in different ways that truly impact their life where it is now, and where it's going to be. We need music to continue. We need songwriters that are better than I am, that are better than the people that are on top 40 hits right now, because we need other human beings to remind us of what's true, and to remind us all to keep going and to find our communities so that we can continue to serve other people. And so the comments will come as you find your real people. Keep searching for your community and your people because they're out there, you're going to have to do the hard work to find them, because they're not looking for you yet because they don't know you exist. So you have to let the world know you exist in order for them to be able to find you.

Michael: Well, dang man, that is some powerful stuff. It's been an honor watching you and watching your journey with your music. I know in some of our mastermind retreats, you've shared some stories about directly hearing the impact that your music is making on your fans. I won't name any specific names, but the story that you told about one of your fans whose family, when you perform that show for them, said it was the first time that they've seen their mom smile and in months. She was going through a difficult time. It was just awesome, and a great reminder of the value that we provide as musicians and the ability to, in your words, comfort the afflicted and then you versed in afflict the comfortable.

Matt: Confront the comfortable.

Michael: Confront the comfortable. Yeah, you're not going to inflict it. [both laughing]

Matt: I don't want to cause any pain!

Michael: I love that, and I love the fact that you have such clarity around your mission and your mission statement. I think it's really powerful and it's a lesson that all of us can learn from by coming up with a short phrase or something that really embodies your purpose and your message. So Matt, man, always a pleasure connecting with you. 

Matt: Yeah, dude!

Michael: Thank-you for being who you are, and being a light for your fans, your community, and for all of us here as Modern Musicians. So for anyone that is listening to this right now who would like to connect more with the one and only Matt Fawcett, where'd it be the best place for them to go to connect deeper?

Michael: Yeah. I mean, if you're an artist and you want to connect and you have questions about it, you can always reach out to me on Facebook or Instagram. It's just Matt Fawcett, Fawcett spelled like Farah. Even though there's no relation, unfortunately. If you want to go through my whole system of joining to be a fan and all that stuff and see what I do for my fans if you go to Matt.fawcettmusic.com/streaming, you can hear a song from me, join the community. I'll say this, I don't do it perfectly, and there's a lot of things you can learn from both my pros and cons and my mistakes and my wins. I'm not scared of sharing either of them: both my wins and my failures, because my hope is that whatever I do in this life, it can help point somebody towards what they can do for somebody else. So that's for my kids, my family, my fans, anybody they interact with. I say this all the time when I go to play music at other places: I want everybody to have a good time, the fans, the booker, even the guy mixing sounds, the stage hands. If everybody has a great time and says: Wow, that was an awesome experience, then I feel like I won. I think if we have that attitude as we go to everything in life, if I can make everybody win that I interact with, or take another step towards greatness for themselves, then that's a success and a win for me.

Michael: Absolutely. Yeah, dude, again, like one last time, I feel like what I appreciate so much about you Matt, is just how much you embody the opportunity that we all have now as “Modern Musicians”. You don't necessarily have to sound like a top 40 artist and your music is like self produced and you do a ton of self production, which is awesome. You are able to walk the walk and you're able to make this impact on your fans because you're willing to show up as you are and just take 1 step at a time. So I think that's a valuable lesson for all of us. So yeah, man, great connecting. Like always, thank-you for coming on the podcast

Matt: Yeah, dude.

Michael: Talk to you again soon.

Matt: Awesome. Sounds good, man.

Michael: Yyeeeaaaah!

Hey, it’s Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today, and if you want to support the podcast then there’s a few ways to help us grow.

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