Nifty Sax: I really think that we are going to get that back: That passion of collecting music and showing that you were there first. Also, when you discover an artist, when nobody knows them and you buy their NFT, you actually have proof that you supported them in the beginning and they will be forever grateful. And you will never be forgotten because that transaction is always there. The artist can go back in the beginning of that smart contract and see: who was the first person who bought my music? And they can always reward this person. And that's a beautiful thing. 

Michael Walker: It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician and it's only getting better. If you have high-quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

All right. So I am excited to be here today with Nifty Sax. So Nifty is an award winning saxophonist, composer, and music director. And he has a wealth of knowledge as it relates to music NFTs. And he has a really cool platform that he's built. He's created a ton of music NFTs himself, has a very successful history with creating NFTs with using a saxophone. He sold over 60ETH, which is currently worth over $70,000 of his own NFTs. And not only that, but he's actually helped other artists and helped them generate over $280,000 worth of music NFTs. And so he's someone that really leads by example, and he's helping other artists as well. Personally I'm a big fan of the music NFT movement. And I know there's been a lot of controversy around NFTs and there's been like a spike, a drop in a bubble pop. Because like most new technologies, it seems like there's a hype bubble that kind of happens at the beginning and there's things that are overvalued, like a gif of a hamster should never sell for a million dollars. But it definitely seems like there's unique things like music, for example, and artwork where there's a really valid use case for something like NFTs. So I'm really excited to bring him on the podcast today and talk a little bit more about web3 and the world of music NFTs and yeah, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today, Nifty.

Nifty Sax: It's great to be here. And yeah, you said it. That's really what happened. Like in the beginning, there was so much speculation that it really hurt the whole space because that's what people associate NFTs with. So we're basically just getting started now. The things are settled down and so we're doing things in a bit more of a realistic way. And yeah, I'm loving it. It's of course a bit slower and the community is very small right now, but that's the best place to start. Imagine starting when YouTube was getting started. That's the vibe right now. It's a new technology. And it's very few people doing it with not so much financial return for now, but the community is great. That's why we're still here.

Michael Walker: Awesome. So to kick things off, I'd love to hear a little bit about your story and how you discovered music NFTs and started creating them yourself and started working with other artists as well and helping them to do their music and a few drops.

Nifty Sax: Yeah. For me, it all started with the pandemic because I'm a full-time musician, when I was out of a job, I was just playing live gigs. That was my thing. I was playing jazz mostly. I was doing a lot of corporate events, even weddings or whatever, anything that would have me, I was playing. So that was my life and that went away completely. So I had so much time on my hands all of a sudden and all of this urge also to play, and I started to record a whole bunch of music because I didn't know what the hell to do with myself. Then I saw that people were selling visual art/digital art on the blockchain using this new technology and actually it was selling for a lot of money because that was late 2020, early 2021. So yeah, that was still the huge hype. And so yeah, I thought: this is cool. I have a lot of music. Why don't I try to sell my music as a work of art? Because I always think of music as art, which…. that's what it is. And so yeah, I did that and I recorded even more stuff because now all of a sudden I have an outlet for it. I wasn't gonna record a thousand pieces and then put them on Spotify to create too much clutter there. And so I had this whole new thing and I felt completely free. And yeah, I did record 100 pieces of saxophone improvisations and I started to sell those and it went pretty well. Initially it was really tough. Nobody knew who the hell I was because I started a new account on Twitter, which was still called Twitter. [both laugh] And initially I didn't sell anything for 2 or 3 or 4 months, but then little by little things started to pick up. And so I started to meet some collectors, people that were curious about digital assets. I learned a lot on the way and I made some mistakes and I created a lot more music and that led me to my second collection which was called spheres, which was another 55 tracks that I recorded which is also unusual. Usually for an album, you do, I don't know, 7 or 10 or 12 songs, but this new avenue really allowed me to be completely wild. So I created this question called Spheres, which was again, just saxophone solos, but this time with a very chill vibe with a huge reverb. And I created this effect that allowed me to play with every note that I played in the minute before. So every note that I play stays on for 60 seconds. So I have to keep layering some notes that work with what I played before. And the sound that comes out is a almost like a pad; like a synth, because you still have the tail of all the notes that I played before creating these slow chords. And that had a lot of success. I made something like $40,000 in one night. So that was like completely mind blowing for me. Michael: And that was right when you did that initial drop, it would just do $40,000 right out of the gate?

Nifty Sax: Yeah. Of course as any overnight success, it took me like from probably nine months at least of preparation to get there. I started to release my first NFTs around February maybe. And Spheres I think came out around the end of September. So it took me quite a while to get there, but since I had no job and I had nothing to do as a musician, just sitting at home, I spent every waking hour I had making connections and getting to know people that knew about this technology and I wanted to let them know that I was doing that. I was doing this. That's all I did. Really. I just wanted people to know that this was out there and then if they liked it or not was up to them, whatever. But I wanted to make sure that everyone knew that I was there. And so I was doing this Twitter spaces, and going to other people's spaces to talk about my collectible music, which at the time was really weird. People did not understand what the hell it was. Like, why would you collect music? Like I can listen to it for free and whatever. Like even I can go on Spotify or something. So they didn't understand, but some people did and they thought it was really cool. And so they decided to buy some of my pieces. And then some of those people that invested early, actually, they were able to resell some of my pieces to other people because the supply is limited. That's basically the only cool thing about NFTs that I would say that remains after all the hype and everything, is the fact that you have this thing online that is unique. So it's like an upgraded MP3 where every edition is signed by the artist because it's released by my wallet and everyone knows its provenance, which is what art is all about. You need to know where things are coming from. That's the only way that they can have value. That inspired me to help other people because if I could do it as a saxophone player, like I'm definitely… My music is not popular, it's very niche stuff. But I was able to make a lot of money. For me, $40,000 was a lot of money for any independent musician. I think that's quite nice. And yeah, I just wanted to spread the word and that's why we started NiftyMusic. That's basically a music NFT accelerator. We take artists in and we show them how they can sell their music online in a way that actually makes sense. Because with Spotify, nobody's really making money. And iTunes…. and whatever people don't really buy music anymore, probably because it doesn't feel special, but in this way, we have a way to make it special again. We helped quite a few artists and they created beautiful connections with their listeners, their fans, which now have these assets that are there forever, theoretically, as long as the blockchain is around. It's been a beautiful, fun ride. Last year was tough because, as you said, the market went down and so when the hype died down, a lot of people left just because they thought oh, it's all over. This was just a fad. And so right now we are finally, as I said before, we're finally entering the beginning of everything where we're doing things in a more reasonable way. And yeah it's still awesome. The community is very tight. 

Michael: Awesome. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. The thing that comes to mind as it relates to music NFTs is the Gartner Hype Cycle. I've seen that graphic a bunch of times now in the past year, and it really showcases the trend that new technology usually takes in terms of: there's like an initial hype cycle and it's overvalued and basically every cutting edge technology has gone through the same cycle. Like the internet, for example. It's a huge hype and overvalue and then there's a pop. And so there's the. com bubble that burst. And like music NFTs, we had this bubble that burst. And then there's this skepticism and a low point where it’s like: Oh this was a fad. This is not legit. And then there's the slope of enlightenment where people are like: Oh, actually this does have a valid use case in these situations. And it becomes more of: people understand what the technology means, not necessarily because they understand the underlying tech that runs it, but because they understand the utility that they get from it. Like the internet, most people don't really understand the actual technical aspects of how the internet functions with post requests and get requests and the underlying fabric of it, but we all understand how valuable it is and what it does for us. So it definitely seems like we're entering this era of NFTs and the utility and the understanding of ownership based on the platforms that we can actually use those in a valid way. So I love the fact that you're building on this space and that you personally have experience doing this yourself and working with other artists and helping them do successful drops. I'm curious to hear from your perspective, having gone through this yourself, having worked with a ton of other artists now and help them have success with it, what are some of the common challenges or biggest mistakes that artists tend to make when they first enter the world of music NFTs? 

Nifty Sax: Oh, the mistakes are… there's so many things that I have made myself. The first thing probably is: going into it without knowledge; without understanding how things work and just winging it. That's probably as general as I can be. That's the biggest one. Because it's tempting. Oh, it's a new thing. I just want to try! But I would say it's better to actually take some time to learn a little bit about how things work. People don't have to, for example, when the internet came around, people didn't really have to know how to build a website. But if you did, you definitely had an advantage. Even right now, building a website is super easy. There are tools that basically do it for you. But if you know a little bit of HTML, a little bit of JavaScript and CSS, this kind of stuff, it does help you. You can actually understand how certain things go together and then you can actually customize your product in a more efficient way. This is similar now. It's really the early days. So things will change and they will get super easy right now. You don't have to become an expert in the blockchain: knowing how to create your own smart contract and everything, but it does help to know at least how it works. Pay other people to create smart contracts for you. That's fine, but at least understanding how things work really gives you a leg up. And so that's the first mistake. And then the second biggest mistake that I see people doing is coming in guns blazing again. First of all, you're not going to learn how things work. You don't want to learn about the new technology and the community and anything. And then you come in with your best work: Oh, this is awesome. I'm just going to create this on the blockchain. This is my best work ever. And then you regret it because realize: Oh, I got this work out there and now it's there forever, I can't delete it. And actually, I would have liked to release it in a better way, but now you can't. So usually what we recommend because education is really our biggest thing. That's what we do. And what we recommend initially, just start slow, talk with other people and start with something that you create right now. Go in your room, go to your studio, whatever, record something that sounds good to you. But don't go too crazy about it. Just make something that sounds good. And especially something that sounds really like you. Don't try to sound like something else. Don't try to make something that you think might work because things are different here. So what I always say is: go and make the music that you always thought you wanted to make. Like when you were a kid, like the craziest music that you think… something that is not gonna work. In your mind, this shouldn't work. It's too crazy. Make that, and release it on the blockchain. Put it in a small edition like 10 copies; 20 copies; or 50. Keep it small and just have some people collect it and see what that feels like. And then try something else, do another song and then go to your collectors and see if they like that one. And then you find new collectors. So you slowly build your fan base, in a way, but you actually create deep connections with these people because there's something that happens when people collect your work, when they feel like they own it. And by only that, I don't mean that they own the copyright of it. They just own that copy. It's really just like a vinyl. They own that particular copy that is signed by you. Yeah. It's really special when you have 100 or 200 people in your network that are really passionate about what you're doing, that can pretty much sustain a career for an independent musician, which is the theory of the “thousand true fans” in reality. That's what it is. Yeah, these are some mistakes that come to mind. There are many others, but these are definitely the biggest ones. 

Michael: Yeah, that totally makes sense. So it sounds like the biggest thing is coming into it is: one, being humble enough to look to learn and get some guidance coming into it so you can better understand it rather than just come in guns ablazing and two: start small and start with something new that you're not super attached to so that if you only have one chance to release your greatest work ever, you want to do it in the right way. So maybe start by experimenting with something that's new that you can create on the spot. Maybe we could really quickly just zoom out. For anyone who's listening to this right now, who maybe they're actually totally new to the music NFT space, and they might be a little bit confused by some of the things we've talked about, I don't know, like smart contracts or just in general, like the overall concept. Actually, this would be a great thing to address. So just that main premise of not getting it, of not understanding: why is this different from Spotify? Why would I pay to own a piece of music if I can listen to it for free on my Spotify subscription? 

Nifty Sax: Yeah. That's always a great topic of discussion because it's where everything starts. That's really the differentiator between the old way and the new way. So our music is also on Spotify. It's everywhere. Like you can listen to it for free. It's fine. We don't mind. The good thing about the digital asset is that, first of all, you can be creative in your release. For example, for some of our artists, some of the collections that we advise them on, we say: look, you've got this song, it's a great single, why don't you record it also in different ways and release them all in the same collection? You've got an acoustic version with a guitar, and then you play a little bit of piano. You want to play it also on the piano. Maybe there's a friend of yours that plays some other weird instrument. Do you want to do a version like that, and you can. You can also release it with different cover arts. You can have 10 different cover arts. You can have 100 and whatever you want, and they're all unique. And that's really cool for us because as an artist, it really gives you this new avenue of creativity. I really love the idea of having a song that I really like in different versions, and especially because I'm indecisive, I don't know which version is the best. I would like to release all of them. And I can! Because I'm not bound to having this traditional album, which you can still. On Spotify, you can put the album in its finished form, the way that you really think is the ideal way to go to market and whatever. But you can have this unique special versions on the blockchain and you can have people collect them because maybe some people really like that unique version. And this is an avenue to put it out there. And yeah, that's probably the thing that excites me the most as an artist myself. I just like the idea that I can experiment more, and I don't have to worry because actually what I consider sometimes a bit weird and maybe awkward I wouldn't want to put it on my Spotify page, that's the perfect stuff to put on the blockchain because it's really a work of art. If somebody likes you as an artist, they really will want the sketch. They will want all of the special things that they cannot get on the other places. But anyway, regardless, even if you were to release all of the music on Spotify…let's say, okay, you got a single, you do it in four different versions. You put it on Spotify. That's fine. But still the difference is that here you have versions that are assigned by you and will always be recognized as your work. So they're all unique copies. So basically it's really just like a vinyl, but the vinyls are difficult. Most people don't know how to play them and they don't have a record player or there's international shipping and all this kind of stuff. This is basically free for the artist to create, but still gives to the listeners, it gives them a chance to have something unique because you could have in your collection of 100 pieces, you can have 1 piece that is really, really special. And maybe there's a drawing that you made by hand and it's a really unique version where I don't know, your voice broke a little bit and you want to have that to be special. And you can, because these versions are numbered just like a vinyl. So that's what's exciting. It's really an improvement on the MP3, because MP3s are all the same. They're boring. Nobody really wants to buy an MP3. It's just something that we tried to do as an industry, but it doesn't really work. Nobody cares about buying your music on iTunes. They would rather listen to it for free, as you said, but maybe somebody might like the idea of owning a special piece of your history. And that's what it's all about, really.

Michael: Awesome answer. Yeah. So it sounds the two main things that come to mind are 1) that with NFTs, you can take a route where you actually are creating unique content that's more weird or there's different versions that just don't necessarily have a place on your Spotify, but you can be more creative and bombastic and just do fun things that you turn into music NFTs that are a little bit like having a collector's edition of, I don't know, of a video game. If you have the ultimate edition that comes with a bunch of extra goodies that you can do something similar with NFTs.

Nifty Sax: Yeah, that’s exactly it!

Michael: And then the other thing that you mentioned was just the fact that… it's sort of like having a signed copy of a vinyl. If you have a NFT, then it's basically like you're signing it with your signature and you have an authentic, original piece that if you have a signed autograph from Taylor Swift, then that's immediately, just by having that signature, if it's an authentic signature, it's going to increase the value of whatever the CD is. Yeah, that's really interesting.

Nifty Sax: Yeah that's really what we… That is what is left after the hype, because there was a lot of bullshit, to be honest, around NFTs. There's a lot of weird things that people came up to justify the idea of selling something at a higher price also, and with speculation…. like people thought: Oh, I'm going to invest in this artist and then I'm going to be a millionaire because then when they become famous, whatever, I'm going to resell the work. Which, yeah, maybe it can still happen, but that's really not the point. The point is just to have this connection and these special copies of the music. And I think also, we as musicians, we are also music fans and we lost that idea of having this special piece of memorabilia. Probably it's not for everyone, but the people that like to have these unique things, now they can, and they can be digital. You can bring them with you wherever you go and they never get damaged or lost and you can always check where something is coming from. So you're never going to be scammed because you can see on the blockchain, everything is transparent. You can see the transactions that happened. The artist created the piece, then sold it once and sold it again, but you always see where it came from. Rhat's really something beautiful. I really think that we are going to get that back: That passion of collecting music and showing that you were there first. Also, when you discover an artist, when nobody knows them and you buy their NFT, you actually have proof that you supported them in the beginning and they will be forever grateful. And you will never be forgotten because that transaction is always there. The artist can go back in the beginning of that smart contract and see: who was the first person who bought my music? And they can always reward this person. And that's a beautiful thing. 

Michael: Absolutely. Yeah. We've talked about this before, but one of the things that I'm most excited about with our goal with Modern Musician is to create our music relic marketplace and to have an NFT marketplace for bridging the gap between web2.0 and web3.0. And for me, where that shows up most, what happened most recently was we have a channel on our discord called ‘share your music’ and we have a ton of artists who are coming in and sharing their music and I love hearing everyone's music. It's really special. It's what we're all here for is to share who we are and our music is an expression of that. But every once in a while when I'm listening through there, I'm like completely blown away. Or I'm like: this is absolutely incredible. Holy cow! And, I've had this thought a few times. I'm like, man, we really need to get extremely quick and fast integration with the music relics so that any new artists who are coming in, we just have them share their relics in that channel exclusively, because I want to go in and buy people's relics. I would love to own one of their original music relics that they created. And I was reflecting on that, that I can't remember the last time I bought a digital download or that I bought even a vinyl. I'm not really much of a collector in general, but I would personally be spending a lot more on these collectibles because they are something that's unique; because they are something that actually can be collected and can be showcased. And so it sounds a big part of what you're describing with the value of music NFTs is from the fact that it actually is a tangible asset that has a limited amount, and it can be collected and maybe showcased in a way that the Mona Lisa… even though it can be duplicated and recreated and you could have a clone of the Mona Lisa on your wall, just because you can enjoy the artwork and it's on your wall, doesn't mean that it's worth $800 million like the original, but the original has that high value because it is authentic and it's one of one of a kind. It's 1/1. It definitely seems like there's. Huge opportunity there.

Nifty Sax: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's really something beautiful. And yeah, as you said, people are more prone to buy things online because it's just easier. A lot of people just are afraid that maybe they don't have space; they live in a big city, they have a small apartment. They're not going to have a hundred vinyls, but they might have a hundred NFTs if they really like to support music. They might support their favorite creators on Patreon or something like that. But here they also get something out of it: They get this special, unique digital asset that they can keep forever. Yeah, it's really beautiful. And that's what we're here for. We really want to spread the word because I know that I see it on the artist's faces when they realize this. They really light up. They're excited again. I've seen people that before they started to release music with us, they almost quit. They had some success before, but it never really worked out. And now they're so excited because there's so many avenues to be creative and yeah, we love that. 

Michael: Awesome. I see some questions coming in here in the chat. A couple of good ones from Joe Eddie. Joe asked: can you talk about the technologies that you use to create and publish and sell the NFTs? Setting up your wallets, what tools do you use to create this and get it on the blockchain? Are there marketplaces that are better than others? I'd love to hear your perspective. I think you have a ton of experience on the landscape of music NFTs right now.

Nifty Sax: Sure. Yeah, those are good questions. So it's going to be difficult to pack everything in a short answer. And we do have a course where we really go in depth about this, but let's try to break it down. For wallets, first of all, it matters where you're going to release your music on. So what kind of blockchain? Because unfortunately, it's so early right now that there are different blockchains. And so the problem with this is that some blockchains might disappear, which has happened already. So if your stuff is on a blockchain that nobody uses, then it's basically gone. So that's a problem of being early. Initially what you're going to do is some research on what blockchain has the most chance of being around long-term. And it's also affordable for you because some blockchains like if you want to release something on Bitcoin, for example, it's very inefficient. Bitcoin is not really made for releasing NFTs. You can do it. There are ordinals now that what they're called ordinals, NFT’s on Bitcoin, but it's really inefficient. It's super expensive to release something there. So probably not a place where you want to start. Usually the most common blockchain right now is Ethereum.That's where all NFTs are. Not all NFTs, that's where the most popular NFTs are, let's say. Then there are many others. Tezos is a popular one for people that want to start because it's very affordable. Then there are all the layer twos of Ethereum. But again, this is getting too technical too quickly. What I meant is: do your research about what blockchain you want to use. And then, as far as the platform, it really doesn't matter because in the end you are the platform. The platform is not going to do anything for you. There's no place where you go, release your music and then magically it sells because it's there. That really doesn't happen. So you just have to be somewhere where people will find you. So either you are on Twitter or Instagram or whatever. Wherever people are ready to collect this work, you should be there. Maybe your community on Instagram is not ready for NFTs. Maybe it's too early for them. So you have to find where the collectors are. Right now, we communicate on X/Twitter because that's where most people that are already web3 enabled, that's where they hang out. So it's usually a good place to be if you want to sell your music on the blockchain, then you can find people that already have a wallet. They already know what you're talking about. So you can just tell them, here's my product. Do you like it? Not. Okay, great. You move on to the next person because there are so many. So yeah, what was the other question? You asked how to create a wallet and what blockchain to use, what platform? I think there was something else in there.

Michael: Yeah. I think the last question was if you have any recommendations in terms of a comparison between different marketplaces and what are some of the best options that are available right now?

Nifty Sax: So yeah, as I was saying, the marketplaces don't really matter because you have to sell your stuff. So there are many options right now and it would be pointless to mention one or two because they're really all the same. There are many also on different blockchains, which could be something to experiment with. Don't get stuck on one blockchain. One thing that I would say is one mistake that people can make is minting the same thing…. Minting means creating something on the blockchain. They mean the same thing everywhere on every blockchain, which is usually not ideal. So this is what we're used to, in web2, you want to be everywhere. Which is great when you release something on Spotify, you don't want it to be just on Spotify. That would be ridiculous because that's how you want people to find you. They should be able to listen to your music for free, but when you're talking about owning it, now you have to be very careful because if you create something in a billion copies, then what's the value in that? What's special? For me as a collector, I buy 1 of your pieces and you have a billion on Ethereum and a trillion on Tezos and another trillion on Polygon, then I just lose the whole point. So that's something to be mindful of. So I would say experiment with different blockchains. But as I was saying before, try something new. Record something just for that blockchain, just a different version for Tezos and a different version for optimism and another version for Algorand or whatever. And try to see what happens. Another thing to be careful of, don't spread yourself too thin, because if you're everywhere you're nowhere. So one thing we recommend is: do your research first and then release something in a small batch on 1 blockchain and put all your efforts there, because it's going to be tough. Nobody's going to want it. Nobody's going to want to buy it in the beginning because they don't know you. To buy something from you they really need to understand who you are. And you're not a scammer. And so yeah, that's what I would say about platforms. So the platforms don't really matter. Think about what blockchain you want to use first and then focus your efforts there on a small edition. Create something new and mint it in an edition of 10 and try your luck there.

Michael: Super smart. Yep. One thing that comes to mind is I think about music NFTs and just the nature of creating a limited amount or a limited number of additions for your music, is these drops. Any company that focuses on doing drops where there's a limited amount of something and then they sell out really quickly. It seems like a lot of the promotional strategy that revolves around this type of limited asset involves doing some sort of announcements and building up anticipation. And ideally, having an amount that you're confident you can sell out of because it actually does good things for the overall promotional strategy. I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about that specifically around the process of offering and selling your NFTs, and when you're creating a strategy to… you've worked with artists who've done over $280,000 of value with their NFTs. I'd be curious to hear that strategy that goes around doing a drop or doing a release and how do you think about doing that initially? 

Nifty Sax: Yeah, that's a great question. Drops, as you said, it's a whole different ball game. It's scary also in the beginning when you think, okay, I will release a limited amount of this because you always think: Oh, what if I release more? I could make more money, but it's not the case. And also sometimes the point is not making all the money in one drop, as much as you can. The point is really to have a career. You don't want to make some money and then disappear and then nobody buys your stuff anymore. The key is patience, first of all. And the second most important thing is to understand who is buying your stuff. You can't just release something in addition of $500 if nobody knows who you are. If you release something… usually what we do, if we release something in addition to $500, that means that we told the artist: did you have 700 confirmations of people, 1:1 they told you like in a personal message that they will actually buy this? Then we can release 500 editions. If you have at least 700-750 people that said, yes, I really want this… Because some people will forget and maybe, this month I thought I had more money than I actually have, so I'm not going to buy it. So then you're going to be stuck with all of this stuff. And it doesn't look good because, especially if you worked hard to build so much hype, you go everywhere you can to shout about your great release and everyone is excited, everyone who wants to buy it actually is really excited, but then they might feel like some sort of a letdown if actually nobody buys it. If you release 500 pieces and then you sell only 50 or 100, it looks weird. What happened? Why? Is something wrong with your stuff? People start to question. It's basic psychology. That's just how people think. Nothing is wrong with it, that's just how it works. So as I was saying, the most important thing is to be in direct contact with your collectors, especially in the beginning phases of your career. At some point you do reach a certain point where anything you put out sells out. Like if you're a major company that does drops all the time and people just can't wait to have your new shoe or whatever they, they will sell out. Or if you're Apple, the stuff will sell out no matter what, and you will get there. But initially you have to be very careful. You really have to develop a close connection with your collectors and understand that some of the people that say, yes, I will buy, they will actually not buy it.  So yeah it's a different strategy and it's exciting, but it can also be stressful. This is something I've seen working with several artists. It's not for everyone, I could say, because you will have more success if you are extroverted. That's one thing that I can say for myself because I'm very introverted. I struggle to do this kind of hype cycle. But I can do it if I think of it as a tour. So let's say that I go on tour and I do it for 3 months. I'm not doing anything else apart from being on tour and it's going to be tough and it's gonna suck, but it's also going to be nice. I'm going to make a lot of connections and my music is going to be heard by a lot of people. I'm gonna make some money that's basically how we get over the fact that it does take a certain amount of extroversion to reach that many people in a short amount of time. Usually for our artists, myself included, if you think of it as a tour, then it works, which means that ideally, this is your job, because if you do have another job, it will be more difficult. If you put yourself against a 20-year old who is just putting everything they've got into this and it's really their top priority to make it, of course you're going to struggle if you're doing also other things. And we try to cater also to people that have a job and a family, but then these people need to be more patient because they're up against other people that are steamrolling through them. As I was saying in the beginning, it does take patience, especially if this is not your main gig. 

Michael: Makes sense. Yeah. So it sounds like one of the things that is really at the core of being successful with music NFT drops, it's really about building relationships and building your connections with the community overall. And also, especially with these collectors. So I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about the mindset of a collector. Now that you've connected with a lot of collectors and have sold hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of these collectibles to them, what are some of the traits that you look for that identify someone as a collector and where do they hang out and how do you build a relationship with them in the right way that doesn't come across as, shallow, like you're just trying to get something from them but you're actually looking to build a genuine relationship?

Nifty Sax: Yeah, that's another great question. This is something that we spent a lot of time analyzing and it's something that also we take a lot of time in explaining to our artists, the differences in collectors. Because we identified some types and it's very important to know also what kind of collector you want to engage with because. Like I was saying before, it's not for everyone to have this hype: Oh, let's go I got this new release and you get everybody excited. Some people are just more relaxed and they have a different way of delivering their excitement. For example, if you want to cater to the people that get really excited about drops because they know that they come in a limited supply and they can be resold for a higher price, that's fine. You can totally go that route. And we have some artists in our community that do that and they're really good at that. And that's great, because that means they really found their thing: they're very good at getting people hyped up and then everybody's happy because all of their collectors are able to buy their products first, because of the mechanics of the drop, the way that it's set up, and then they're always able to, to maybe even make some profits because these assets are sold in bulk to them. It's like a wholesale deal: You come in early and then you resell it to the other people that want it. So you make it in a very small supply. Way less than actually there is demand. So that's one way. Then we call those the DGs, the degenerate gamblers. It's one part of the audience. People are like that. And if you want to cater to that, you can, but then there are also other types of collectors. There are some that, for example, collect stories and we call those more like the influencer type. They want to share your story with their audience because they feel cool by discovering another cool artist. And so the way that you target them, you definitely don't have to care about all of your drop mechanics and all of the characteristic of a drop. You probably want to focus on your actual story. You want to have a good story. If you don't have a good story, then don't even go for that route. But if you do have a good story, you can actually go and target the influencer type because then they will collect you and they will spread the word to all of their fans. And people love that. The people that are influencers, they are looking for you. They're looking for content that is great. And so that's another route. And then there's the more straight collector type. For them, they only care about the mechanics of the drop because for them it's super important first of all that you didn't mint it in other places because it has to be unique and then it's super important that the song is truly unique. That piece that they get is really it's not: oh there are 10 copies that are the same and you share it with other people. No, they don't want that. They want 1/1. They really want special things that are signed; They come with all these special features and these are the true collector types that are completely different than the other types that we've seen before. And so for them, you really have to focus on your drop mechanics. You can't forget about the other stuff, but you have to be very careful about your supply and about how you present your things, maybe what you attach to your things. Maybe there are some utilities to different tokens: With this token, I come to your house and play a private show or something, or with this other one, you get all of my merch or other stuff like that. Really special things. And then…. who else is there? There's also the patron. The patrons are different. These are people that really don't care about anything. [both laughing] So if you find yourself some patrons, then you don't have to worry. Like these people are just happy to support you and that's something that actually some people already have. If you already have a Patreon account or other forms of this support, then you can turn these people into your collectors as well. Then of course there are also other artists that collect because they like music and then for them they don't really care about any of the other stuff, they just want to buy good music from you because they know how hard it is to make it and they want to help out, especially if they had just had a drop go well, then I see a lot of artists buy a lot of music from other people that maybe are just starting out. So that's also another great thing. And one way to reach this kind of people is, of course, to hang out in the community. You can't just be sitting in your room alone, and hoping that people will buy your stuff. But if you actually hang out in the community, then you find yourself some collectors amongst the other artists. So yeah, these are some of the few that we identified. But there are definitely some sub sections, but these are, in general, the biggest ones that I can think of right now. 

Michael: Super interesting. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I'm curious if you found if there's like an 80:20 principle to the type of collector in terms of: the ones that are collecting the most or that are supporting artists the most. Is it like pretty much evenly spread out between all of the different types of collectors? Or is there one in particular that kind of seems like the 80:20 that these are the people that tend to be doing the most?

Nifty Sax: I think the biggest one depends on the cycle where we're in; on the market. It's still so early that we're still tied to the market. Like when the hype was huge, I would say, put all of your eggs in the basket of the gamblers, because that's where everybody is. They just want to find the next gem. They want to find some music that is going to pop and they just want to try their luck for them. It's just like a lottery. They just buy all kinds of music and hope for the best. That was the maximum hype. Right now, luckily, that's not really happening anymore. It was fine. It wasn't bad. It was just that's what the market was. And as an artist and an entrepreneur, which all independent artists are, you had to go where you had the best results. And that's where it was. But right now, those people are not around so much anymore. Usually what we see that works best right now is finding the people that are either the true collector type that are really in it just to buy great pieces of art. And so you focus on a very small supply and just really this 1on1 interactions that seems to be working really well, or something that is always working and has always worked since the beginning is finding other artists hanging out in the community and just just being present in other spaces where people hang out. And that goes more for the extroverts because I'm really a true introvert and I actually don't thrive in those spaces where I have to engage with so many people. So for me personally, I really like to find this unique collectors. And then some of these collectors have bought my pieces for $4,000 a piece, like just one piece. And that's great! You just sell one in a month, you're good. So yeah, it really depends on your personality and it's so different for everyone. And that's why we spend a good portion of our education process in finding out who you are and what you are good at, because you can always try to really push it, but you will never make it against people that are just like that by nature. If you are an introvert, you're not going to win against extroverts in a game where extroverts are in advantage. But the good thing is that it doesn't matter who you are, you will find the right audience for you. But it's important that you first look into yourself and figure out what actually makes me comfortable because that's where I'm going to be best at. I'm going to really thrive here because this just comes natural. I would just do this for free. That's basically what you have to look for.

Michael: Awesome. I love it. Yeah, this is super interesting. Thank-you for sharing your insights and I’m really looking forward to seeing where things go with the music industry. It seems like there's a huge opportunity, specifically in the music industry for this technology to revolutionize one of the biggest issues or one of the biggest challenges, which is really about streaming is both an amazing gift and a blessing. We can all stream an unlimited amount of music, but it's lost its economic value because the supply is unlimited therefore the demand… if you've ever tried to divide anything by zero, then usually it makes things break. It doesn't make them work very well. At least that's how it works in GoogleSheets. One thing I'd love to do is for anyone that's here live right now, if you have any questions that you'd like to ask Nifty specifically about NFTs and about everything we've talked about, feel free to put it in the chat and you can either ask it in the chat or if you feel like you actually want to come on here live on the podcast and ask your question, you can also raise your hand by clicking on your icon and raising your hand and coming on to speak, and I'll be happy to answer any questions or to bring any questions on here so that and Nifty can answer them for you. Chad VT asked: question are you currently offering the service of helping artists create NFTs?

Yes. That's a great question. And of course I know the answer to it, but I would love to hear exactly how what you guys offer works as it relates to creating the NFTs.

Nifty Sax: Yeah. Yeah, that's our main thing. First of all is education. So we have different ways that we help artists. We have what we call Nifty Music Academy, where we really take you in from scratch. You don't know anything about the blockchain and we take you through a course that lasts for 2 months and you go from not knowing anything about NFTs, to actually already having created some NFTs, having sold some NFTs probably, and being ready to actually release your music in a thoughtful way on the blockchain. That's our first stop for anybody who really wants to start. And then we have other products for people that are already more experienced. Maybe if you're coming out of the Nifty Music Academy, now you want something a bit more special/more custom because your first drops are going to be very simple, the ones that we're going to teach you how to do. But then we do something that we call floor drops, which is basically a way for any artist to have a tradable collection. You just have to come with a piece of music and a cover art. That's the minimum. Of course, you can have more. A lot of people that do a floor drop choose to have one song in 3 or 4 different versions, like I was talking about before. Maybe they have different cover arts and then many other unique things. And yeah, we do that for you. Basically, you don't have to do anything. This collection will live forever on the blockchain and every single piece is unique because we have developed a way to generate your artworks. So the way that it looks it's just like this, it's very simple: It looks like a vinyl on a floor. That's why they're called floor drops. And so in this room, this digital room, there are many items that can be in or out and in different colors, different signed or not signed. So that way you don't have to think about all of the mechanics. We actually do that for you. So it could be a start of your career in web3 because you maybe start with some smaller drops, like I was saying before, and then you have this, which will always be your first real drop that is tradable. And it's very important for collectors that come in and check out your work. It's very important to see that you have something that is very well organized and it shows that you're serious; that you actually thought about the process of releasing music on the blockchain. And it's not just something that you're doing as a cash grab. So that's yeah, that's the second way that they're helping artists. And then of course, for some of the people that are really good at this and they express the interest in having something bigger and more custom, then of course, we do that as well. And those are collections that, like you mentioned… those numbers that you have are a little bit old. At this point, those collections made over a million dollars in primary and secondary trading. Those are the really big drops that we do. Usually it's a real album. It's not just a single, it's like a proper album that you release on the blockchain and in web3. And we do like a whole campaign, which usually lasts like 6-9 months. That's a really intense process, but it's very fruitful if you actually put your effort into it. 

Michael: Very cool. Yeah. Some super exciting stuff. For anyone who… first of all Nifty, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today and having a discussion about this. It’s a huge opportunity for all of us as musicians. And I really appreciate you both carving the path yourself and leading by example and learning it yourself, and creating this community in this education platform to help other artists with it. I think it's awesome. For anyone who's listening or watching this right now who is interested in learning more or diving deeper into learning more about Nifty Music Academy and what you talk about, where would be the best place for them to go to dive deeper?

Nifty Sax: Yeah, sure. So the first place, of course, you can always send me a message. I'm always happy to help. You don't have to join our course or whatever, just send me a message on X and I'm always there, happy to answer. And yeah, then if you go to niftymusic.academy. we do have an application form you can apply to join the course or to do a floor drop with us. We are currently restructuring the whole website. So right now you might find things that are different than what they were a month ago and what they will be in a month, but you can already apply. What we wanted to work out with Modern Musician is to have a discount code that's specifically for everyone who is in Modern Musician. So I'll talk with Michael about that and then we'll figure something out. But yeah, you can already apply right now. And of course, if you come from Modern Musician, you'll still get the discount when we figure that out. But yeah, niftymusic.academy you can learn a lot about what we do. 

Michael: That's fantastic. Thank you for doing that. We'll make sure that if anyone's watching this and on the podcast, we'll make sure to put it in the show notes so that discount is worked out for it. But yeah, I love the fact too, that you're on X and we'll make sure to link up your profile on X so people can reach out and connect personally. And yeah, thanks again. This has been a lot of fun connecting about music NFTs today. Nifty Sax: That's awesome. I had a lot of fun too. I always love chatting with you.

Michael: Hey, it’s Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today, and if you want to support the podcast then there’s a few ways to help us grow. First if you hit ‘subscribe’ then that’s make sure you don’t miss a new episode. Secondly if you share it with your friends, on social media, tag us - that really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review it’s going to help us reach more musicians like you take their music to the next level. The time to be a Modern Musician is now, and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.