Emily White:
So one thing that I see constantly in... I get it. I get the instinct, is, "Okay, my music's out. Here's the Spotify link." And I'm not saying don't do that, but run a pre-order on day one. Maybe run a special... Day one that your album's out, or your music or whatever, share that it's on the website. That's where you're going to have highest profit margin and collect the most data. Maybe on day two, let the audience know it's up on Band Camp. And then maybe on day three, push out Spotify and maybe day four Apple Music. Because your audience wants to support you in the best way possible, but they don't know how unless you tell them.

Michael Walker:
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All right, so I'm excited to be here today with Emily White. So Emily is a partner at Collective Entertainment and she's the founder of iVoted Festival. She's also the author of the Amazon number one bestselling book, How to Build a Sustainable Music Career and Collect All Revenue Streams. She hosts the books accompanying podcast of the same name, and the podcast is the number one music business podcast globally. So talk about awesome people to have here on our podcast and great topics, since I know a lot of musicians, one of the number one challenges I think of being a musician is how do I make monetize my music and how do I take my artwork and turn it into something that pays the bills and it's sustainable?
Emily's also been on the cover of Pollstar Magazine and Billboard Magazine. Has been featured on Variety, Forbes, Rolling Stone, Pitchfork, CNN, Huffington Post, and more. So she's awesome. And that's kind of a long-winded intro, but Emily, thank you so much for taking the time to be here live today.

Emily White:
Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Happy to be here.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. So maybe we can kick things off. I'd love to hear just a little bit about your story and how you got started becoming a bestselling author of How to Build a Sustainable Music Career and Collect All Revenue Streams.

Emily White:
Sure. I mean, that's a one-hour speech that I often give, but I went to Northeastern University, studied music business, did  internships as an undergrad. Started working with a band called the Dresden Dolls when I was in college. Began tour managing them, worked at their management company when I graduated. Their manager, Mike Luba and I left to go work at Live Nation Artists, which was a new half a billion dollar division of Live Nation, that became Rock Nation. That first installment of Live Nation artists though, fell apart in about seven months, even though we signed Madonna, U2, Jay-Z, Zach Brown Band. So I started my first management company after the when I was 25, in like 2008. We managed musicians, comedians, athletes, had a really great 10 year run. My longtime business partner left management, and so I partnered with a few proteges, founded Collective Entertainment in 2018, said to them on one hand, I'm just moving. I want this to be whatever you want, on the other, I'm just moving our music and sports divisions over.
And musicians kept wanting to get coffee and pick my brain, and I was having the same conversations over and over. And simultaneously, I've since retired from artist management, but the last few artists I took on for management, I was finding money for them left and right. So if that's happening to national and international acts, then what about everyone else?
So that's when I wrote my second book, How to Build a Sustainable Music Career and Collect All Revenue Streams, turned that into a podcast. And also around that time, or at least around the time I wrote the book, we founded, iVoted, and iVoted Festival, and built the largest digital concert in history in 2020. We're just coming off of iVoted 2022, and also laying the groundwork for some important local elections that are happening this year before we really go wild in 2024. So that's the shortest version I can give.

Michael Walker:
Cool. Man, I can understand why that could be an hour long talk. You jampacked a lot of awesome stuff into a few minutes. Cool. Well it sounds like you have a ton of experience from decades of experience in the music industry and you've been able to write a book, you've also have a podcast where you've probably connected with a ton of really smart people and had discussions around these topics. So at this point like you mentioned, you hear these patterns and hear the same thing over and over and over again. So I'm curious, what are some of the most common challenges and mistakes that you see artists struggling with when they first come to you?

Emily White:
It's hard to say, because it's very specific to them. I generally check them out online. This was when those coffees and zooms were happening and I could see... It's like, okay, well if they haven't updated their social media in months, it kind of looks like they don't care or they're not... A lot of really messy, clunky or non-existent website. But I think generally speaking, it's really important for artists, monetize their music before it's even out. Instead of just like, "Okay, it's out. Here's a Spotify link."
I mean, I just saw an Noel Gallagher announce his album for June. We're recording this in January. And you can pre-order it for $10 or up to $150 and include tickets. And I just saw a Fall Out Boy do something similar. And I know these are huge artists, but they're doing it right, and you can only imagine the amount of revenue they're going to bring in.
I don't know when Fall Out Boy's album is, but with Noel for example, how much he's going to bring in and he doesn't even need it, over the next six months, before the record is even out. So one thing that I see constantly... And I get it. I get the instinct, is, "Okay, my music's out, here's the Spotify link."
And I'm not saying don't do that, but run a pre-order on day one. Maybe run a special day one that your album's out, or your music, or whatever, share that it's on the website. That's where you're going to have the highest profit margin and collect the most data. Maybe on day two, let the audience know it's up on Band Camp, and then maybe on day three, push out Spotify and maybe day four Apple Music. Because your audience wants to support you in the best way possible, but they don't know how unless you tell them.

Michael Walker:
Super smart. Yeah. So it sounds like what you're saying is that one of the mistakes that artists make is waiting until their album actually comes out to start talking about the album, and to start offering it for sale. And if they instead start to plan a bit ahead for pre-orders and they do exclusive releases and things leading up to it, that that can help them more effectively leverage all the energy that they put into recording the music in the first place.

Emily White:
A hundred percent. And if you're hitting the studio, the home studio, and you don't have a clear vision for your release, which is totally cool and understandable. Launch a Patreon or get active on your Patreon. Let your audience know, "Hey, I'm recording. I want to bring you along for this journey." And that can be as intimate or not as you want. I totally understand creating a cocoon, creating a space, but throw out some teasers. It could just be a photo of an instrument or something. Let folks know what you're doing, even in a subtle way, and give them an opportunity to support you.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. So even if you're an artist and you don't necessarily know your entire release plan, one thing that you can do is just sort of document what you're doing anyways, and the creative process of making the music and bring people in. And in a similar way to how we're doing this interview live for the first time.
So these interviews, we would do them live anyways, but for the first time ever on this podcast we're doing this one live, we going to actually have an audience of people who are our members of our membership community, and we'd be doing the podcast anyways, so it's like, might as well make an experience and bring people in to enjoy it live. And it sounds like what you're saying is that artists can think of it in a similar way when they're creating their music. If they're going to be creating artwork anyways, bring people behind the stage and especially for your inner circle subscribers or on Patreon, you can find ways to leverage what you're already doing, but kind of give people more access at the same time.

Emily White:
That's exactly right.

Michael Walker:
Cool. One interesting thing that came up as you're talking about the importance of the pre-order campaigns and not waiting until it's out in order to really start promoting it, was the study or maybe it was an article that I read about how our psychology works. As humans, when something isn't available yet but it's coming soon, the anticipation of it actually is more motivating than when it's actually available. And that's why when we have a new TV show that's coming out soon or a new [inaudible 00:08:53] book or a new video game, people line up for so far in advance because we're just waiting for the date, we're waiting for the event. And there's something in our brains that actually the dopamine gets released before the thing is actually available. And that's got an interesting angle to look at what you're talking about with making sure you have a pre-order campaign, and build-up anticipation to the actual thing.

Emily White:
And even anticipation within the pre-order, right? Oftentimes there'll be a pre-order and I'm like, oh, I'm just going to get the download or whatever. But then as each tier gets more enticing, suddenly I'm spending $50 or $100. So you also want to create exactly what you're describing for your fans.

Michael Walker:
Cool. So along the angle of helping artists to discover these maybe untapped revenue streams, what are some other maybe common mistakes or things that you see artists struggling, as it relates to being able to actually make a sustainable income with their music?

Emily White:
Definitely. The number one missing revenue stream I see from artists of all ages is music publishing. And that's understandable because... First we should define what music publishing is. I just did a live podcast taping on the episode, music publishing isn't scary or confusing. And one of my goals in life is for songwriters to be able to clearly define music publishing and understand how to get all their money for it.
And most people understand what a record company's job is in theory. And there's two main rights in music. There's the recording side and there's the songwriting side. So a record company's job is to go out and push the recording and get it as much work as possible and then collect all the money that's owed to it. That's all music publishing is for your songwriting. So it's nothing to be scared of, to run to the hills over. I just want people to understand what it is.
And then to make sure you're paid in full, first you have to sign up for your performing rights organization. So in the US that's going to be ASCAP or BMI. Of course there's GMR and CSAC, but I talk about ASCAP and BMI because they're open to everyone and it really doesn't matter which one you go with. I have some nuances in the book, but it's nothing that's going to make or break your career by any means. I mean the shorter short answer is if a human at ASCAP or BMI, go with the place where you know a human.
It's interesting, I feel like this has been new over the past few years. I've been meeting quite a few songwriters and students that aren't signed up for ASCAP or BMI, and then I ask why? Because if you don't sign up, if you don't register your songs within two and a half years you don't get that money. Which they didn't know when I told them. But their answer is, "Oh, I don't want to sign my publishing away." And I'm like, that's not what this is. This is regulated by the government. You either go get the money or you don't.
So that's weird and new. I feel like at the beginning of my career, and not that they aren't, but ASCAP and BMI were very out there at conferences. Like, "Hey, if you're 15, sign up if you're songwriting, whatever." So that's the first thing. I have a podcast episode in season one called something like If You Are a Songwriter, You Need to Sign up for your PRO." And of course the PROs are country specific. So if you're in the UK it's going to be PRS. If you're in France, it's going to be SACEM. If you're in Canada it's going to be SOCAN, and so on and so forth.
But the reason music publishing is songwriter's number one missing revenue stream, is when you sign up for ASCAP or BMI, if you write a song 100%, they're going to divide it into two shares. The writers share. So they're going to be like, if I was a songwriter, they're going to be like, okay, you're Emily White, the songwriter, and then the publishers share. And they're going to nudge me and say, "Do you want to create a publishing designee?" And so it's like, "Sure, I'll be Emily White Publishing or Emily White Music." So it's completely understandable that when I ask artists and songwriters, how are you collecting on their music publishing, the answer is, "Oh, I'm with ASCAP. Oh, I'm with B M I." And this is really important.
If I drill anything else into brains, it's this. If you are just collecting your music publishing through your PRO and your songs are being covered, streamed, sold, any of the above, which is most people, then you are missing out on money. And so how you get that is through a publishing administrator like Song Trusts. I'm a big Song Trusts advocate because anyone can sign up for them. Just like anyone can distribute their music through Distro Kit or TuneCore or CD Baby or anything like that. Like Song Trusts is completely democratized music publishing. You own your rights, you keep 85% of the royalties, they take a 15% commission. Of course you can do an admin publishing deal or do a traditional co-publishing deal, but not everyone has access to that. And Song Trusts was set up by the founders of Downtown Music Publishing. They have song writers like Image and Heap and J. Cole and John Lennon's catalog. So you have access to the same royalty rates and collection.
So sign up for your PRO if you're a songwriter, and then sign up for Song Trust or another publishing administrator, and then you are collecting on your music in full. And just like your PRO, if you don't sign up for Song Trust or a publishing administrator and register your songs within two and a half years, you don't get that money. So I think that's really messed up. I don't know if that'll ever change. I feel awful.
I mean there was a guy at my live podcast taping the other day. He had had syncs on ESPN and things like that, and of course was paid up front for the thing but wasn't signed up for Song Trust or didn't have any publishing administration. And this was a few years ago. So he missed out on all those backend royalties. The only thing that made us feel a little bit better was, he's not that young, but he is 27. Imagine being 40 or 60 and learning this stuff. So music publishing is the number one missing revenue stream for sure.

Michael Walker:
Wow, super helpful. So we've had Song Trust on the podcast a couple of times and totally agree, they're awesome. And so it sounds like what you're saying is that really the two main things when it comes to music publishing, which is an untapped revenue stream for a lot of artists, is one, make sure that you're signing up with a PRO, and then two, make sure if you want it to be simple and easy, go with Song Trust, because they're established and they're trustworthy and they're great at what they do. But you need to have some sort of publishing administrator to be able to collect those extra royalties. And if you had to-

Emily White:
Not even extra. They're your royalties. Go get them.

Michael Walker:
Right. Yeah, that is kind of funny. It's like they're there. And then if you don't collect them, what they get redistributed back to the people who are making the most money already, basically?

Emily White:
They go into what's called the black box, and they just get redistributed to other artists and pay ASCAP's rent and salaries and all that stuff.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, it would be good to collect what you're owed.

Emily White:
And again, to reiterate, I totally understand why it's confusing and it's not songwriter's fault, because of that publishing designee thing. There was an artist that asked about that in the Music Publishing Isn't Scary and Confusing episode last week when I had explained it, and I said, "Were you late?" And they were like, "Yeah, we just got here." Because they asked the exact same thing. Like, "Oh, well aren't I covered by my publisher's share and ASCAP?"
So again, it's just like if you're creating a publishing designee and you're Emily White Music or whatever your publishing designee is, I mean it's the same word. It's totally understandable that that's confusing.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. And just to put things in perspective too, if someone's here right now or listening to this and they've been putting this off for a while because they're like, "Oh, I just don't really know how to do this or what, I need to figure that out." How much time or energy should they actually budget for, to get this done on average would you say?

Emily White:
Totally depends on the size of the catalog, right? Do you have two songs out? Do you have a hundred songs out? But even hearing you say budget your time, it's like it's budgeting your time to go get money that's owed to you. So I think it's worth it.

Michael Walker:
Totally. Because I think for me at least, and maybe there are some artists, if I know how to time box or I know, oh, this is going to take four hours, it's like, huh, it's four hours. I could potentially make tens of thousands of dollars from this. That's a good use of my time.
If someone has, I don't know, five to 10 songs or let's just make it easy, like 10 songs. What kind of time investment are we talking, to just do the work and get it properly cataloged?

Emily White:
I can't imagine it would take more than an hour to do that, to get totally set up and everything. And then it's part of your process. Every time you write a song, I'm just going to register an ASCAP, I'm going to let Song Trust, I'm good to go.

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See, and that puts it pretty firmly in one of those... One exercise I like to come back to usually once a year or so, is the time pyramid. Where you look at all the things you're doing on a daily basis and you kind of be like, which one of these are $10 an hour or $15 an hour tasks, $25 an hour or $50, $100, $500, $10,000 an hour tasks?
If you're serious about making music and you really are looking at a long-term career, and this probably falls into one of those tasks that's thousands of dollars per hour, where it's almost like you can't afford not to budget the time to do it.
Awesome. Cool. I mean, having the perspective that you have around the decades of experience in the music industry, I'm sure you've seen a lot of shifts and a lot of some things that stay the same that have never changed, and there's some things that have changed a heck of a lot. What are some of the new trends or things that you see happening right now as it relates to music revenue that you think are maybe ideas or opportunities to explore for artists right now?

Emily White:
Yeah, this isn't necessarily super new, but I think it's... Because I have two lists of revenue streams in my book. There's the list of everything that's owed to you if you write, record, release music and play live. So it's like go get that money.
Then I have a list of what I call bonus revenue streams, because you have to do something. I mean, you have to do something to get the money that's owed to you, but you know what I mean? It's not necessarily owed to you. One revenue stream I feel like people don't take advantage of is like... Look, in the pre-digital era, and we're just talking about prior to 2005, prior than prior to 2000, you would have to sign with a label generally to be able to afford recording and then of course to distribute. And you would also be blocked from recording your own shows and doing anything with that material. And that's because they didn't want it to compete with the CD or vinyl sales or whatever.
Now, on one hand, the jam band community is amazing at this, right? The Grateful Dead have been doing that since the seventies and eighties and really cultivated arguably the greatest fan community ever. But outside of the jam community, now that we can record shows and we can record fairly easily, that's something I don't think artists are taking advantage of enough.
And I totally understand why. We're all perfectionists. So it's not a perfect recording or I'm not perfect or whatever. But you have to think about it from the fans' perspective. You said Cincinnati or I heard myself yell or whatever, and it's a really cool memento. So I do think artists should play around with recording their own shows and putting them on their website, even if it's for donation or for subscription, and you don't necessarily need to charge whatever amount. But I think that's a cool creative one that I would love as a fan.

Michael Walker:
Cool, that's a great idea. And what actually came up as you're sharing that was when I was touring full-time with my band Paradise Fears, on one of our tours, I think it was with Andy Grammar, there was a part of the set that was always a big hit. And that part, we would come to someone in the audience and we would have them sing into it and just go, "Oh, oh, oh." And little did they know we were actually recording when they sang into it, and then we turned it into a sample, and we used it during the upcoming song. And I was just thinking in context of what you just shared, if we had that recording of the show available for that one fan especially, they'd be like, "Oh my gosh, that's so valuable. I need to have that. That's so cool."
And it just got me thinking that crowd participation in general, and then recording that and being able to offer something where they actually co-created, they're a part of the artwork in some ways. Kind of an interesting angle to take, and maybe along somewhere along the lines of maybe there's an opportunity for creating... At the time we're recording this, NFTs are in this down swing and there's a bubble that kind of popped around them. But I think there could be a really cool opportunity around creating NFTs from live shows and having a limited amount of them and doing something like that.

Emily White:
I love it. Exactly.

Michael Walker:
Cool. Well, speaking of NFTs, that would be an interesting conversation to have as it relates to music revenue and an opportunity. And like I just mentioned, at the time we're recording this right now, there's a bit of a downswing, there's a bubble that popped because... Crazy. I guess GIFs of peanut butter aren't worth millions of dollars. So I think there's kind of this correction that's happening around NFTs, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts as it relates to music artists who are here right now that are maybe considering looking at creating NFT versions of their music, and whether that's an opportunity or not worth pursuing.

Emily White:
Yeah, it definitely is. I feel lame saying new technology, but with any new technology, it's not the technology that's going to make you successful or not, it's how you use it. So I remember managing an artist 10, 12 years ago or something, and he was like... So Twitter was kind of new, and he is like, "Well, I tweeted. I'm not huge yet." As opposed to how Zoe Keating uses Twitter or how Amanda Palmer uses Twitter. They have really embraced the platform. And I think anything, you should work with technologies that you feel good about.
I mean, I've always been really open-minded when it comes to tech. I will try everything. But people thinking like, "Oh, I'm just going to do an NFT to make money." That's totally not the point. There's definitely artists being really artistic and authentic and conscious about NFTs, just in the way they are with their art. But really it's also the technology behind it.
You talked about selling live shows as an NFT. I mean, it's really taking ownership into the next level, into web three. The digital era on one hand is done. I already talked about that. You can record on your own, you can own your rights. But we also talked about ASCAP and BMI, and I know they're not going to do this anytime soon, but look. If you and I write a song together and we agree it's 60-40 in your favor, but I put a typo in and put 50% or something, neither of us are going to get paid.
So that's what's nice about the smart contracts on the blockchain, and how you can get creative. Because I was seeing that when... I love and hate to be this person, but when you're talking about a fan saying on this, and what if we released it? It's like, well, they would have to sign off on that, from a rights standpoint. Which I don't think they would've a problem doing. But when you talk about releasing the show as an NFT, well they could have 5% ownership in the show or something. And then they could monetize on it forever.
So just the transparency in smart contracts is really cool. And that's why I don't necessarily think NFTs are trendy or not trendy, They just are. This is really random, but I was on the swim team growing up and I remember in the late nineties, one of my coaches, she was in her thirties, she's like, "What's this www stuff I see on commercials?" That's how it's going to be. We can talk about this technology, but it's ultimately going to become ubiquitous, and then our parents will just use Facebook. Even though they didn't really know what AOL was when I was growing up, if that makes sense.

Michael Walker:
That's funny. Do you want to write a song while we're here?

Emily White:
I'm not much of a songwriter.

Michael Walker:
NFTs. It's what you do, it's not the technology.

Emily White:
There you go.

Michael Walker:
There we go. We got something. Turn that into an NFT.

Emily White:
Yes.

Michael Walker:
Billions of dollars right there.

Emily White:
Exactly.

Michael Walker:
And we got everyone here to witness it live. All right, awesome. So that's such a great point. Yeah, that the NFT, it's more of a reflection of your artwork and what you do with it as opposed to the technology itself. So modern musician... Part of the reason that I brought it up is we're partnering with Flow blockchain to train a music NFT platform. And the Flow blockchain is environmentally friendly, it takes less energy to mint an NFT than it takes to post on Instagram. But I think it is one of the things I'm most excited about. And yeah, there's a downswing with NFTs right now, but I do think there's a really cool opportunity to create a music asset that-

Emily White:
I mean, sorry to interrupt. There was also a dot com crash. Like pets.com is a joke. And I don't know, maybe pets.com is still a website, but I'm like, I don't know. The URL pets.com makes sense to me.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, I think I missed the boat on pets.com or what exactly happened.

Emily White:
There was a dot com crash, it's just NFTs and crypto now. It was a new thing in the nineties, and all these stocks went way up, and then everything crashed, and pets.com was kind of the joke. But I bet if you go to pets.com, it's like a pet store chain or something, right?

Michael Walker:
Yeah, pets.com is a pretty good domain. So pets.com, what? It was overvalued and then-

Emily White:
Yes. So that became the joke. Like, oh, pets.com, that's pretty worthless or whatever. But it's like, I don't know, you understand exactly what I'm saying.

Michael Walker:
Wow, interesting. Yeah, I mean pets.com is probably worth a fine penny right now if you wanted to own that domain. Huh, interesting. Cool.
Obviously there's kind of two sides of the coin. Like you just mentioned, there's the royalties that you should be collecting, because you're already doing these things anyways, and do this. And then there's sort of maybe new opportunities, there's extra things you can do or different things. What do you feel most compelled by or what do you think would be worth talking about right now as a potential other topic to dive into related to one of those topics?

Emily White:
Well, chapter one and episode one is Get Your Art Together. Create great art, otherwise there's no point of going on to anything else you and I are talking about. So don't neglect that, whether it takes months, years. In my personal opinion, the music that connects and lasts for the long term, it feels weird to say, but it's like what we are talking about with technology. What is heart to your soul, your spirit in musical form? That's what people are going to connect with in my experience. Not making music that you think people will like, or it's for this label. Of course you hope people like it, but is it true to your heart, your soul, your spirit?

Michael Walker:
That's a great lesson. Because yeah, sometimes it is easy to get lost in chasing something or trying to be someone or trying to make some sort of impression when music and its purest form is really about expressing who you are. Cool.
So this might be an interesting... I mean this might be totally down a tangential topic and you can totally just cut me out if you're like, this is even worth it. This isn't what I wanted to talk about at all. But as we were talking about technology, and future, NFTs, and as we're talking about artwork generation, one tool that's just been blowing my mind lately is ChatGPT AI. And DALL·E as well, for prompt generation of artwork.
In some ways it's kind of scary, thinking could we be replaced by AI? And then I've also heard of, there's a great meme, its AI isn't going to replace artists. Artists using AI are going to replace normal artists. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts that relates to some of these new tools that are kind of cresting right now around AI and generation, as it relates to artwork and potentially as that relates to their ability to monetize their artwork using AI tools.

Emily White:
I hadn't thought about it from the artwork perspective. I think it's going to be like anything, right? If you're a musician and you're looking for album or single artwork, you're probably going to want to work with a human. It doesn't mean some 11 year old isn't just going to generate stuff and be like, oh, cool. But I would think generally speaking, most people are going to want to work with a human artist graphic designer. But maybe if it's literally a one person new startup company, or something for class. I mean, hey, I need a logo for my presentation type of thing.
I just think it depends on the use. And when it comes to music, it's a little scary when it comes to sync, right? It's going to devalue sync for sure, because it's like, well, am I going to pay you or am I going to pay the machine a lot less?
But again, it goes back to creating great art and connecting with your fans. So I don't know, maybe the average person will like listening to AI music, but most music fans... It's what we were talking about at the beginning of the episode. It's about the journey, it's about the connection. The art is what's most important first and foremost.
And I don't know, it's when you think of... I'm not saying these are everyone's favorite artists, but some of my favorite artists, it's like, did anyone sound like Neil Young before Neil Young? Right? It's like those are the elements that make great artists unique, and then we become big fans of these people, and get really into that.
So as long as you make great art and connect with your fans, it's going to be okay. But like I said, I think we need to keep an eye on the devaluing of sync. And I know these companies say like, oh, we get real musicians to play the instruments or whatever. But yeah, that's the value where it's just going to keep being devalued. But like I said, create great art, connect with your fans and you can't go wrong.

Michael Walker:
Interesting. Yeah, I haven't really fully considered that aspect of the industry. With supply and demand, if it is easy to supply kind of sync music, and they're not necessarily looking for a specific artist to feature or a song that's well known. What that might mean for creative video producers and whatnot.

Emily White:
And think of it from a rights standpoint. It's just, a music supervisor isn't going to have to deal with, are there samples in this? Are there co-writers? Do I have to go get clearances from five different people? I'm not saying they shouldn't do that, but I know how that works, and it's fast. And so I don't know if people are talking about that, but that is so obvious to me when you ask that question.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. Cool. Yeah. One thing I would love to pick your brain on is... We talked a little bit about this earlier around Patreon and having a membership type of subscription, and giving people access to your artwork in a deeper way. So we have a software that we've been developing over the past year and a half called Street Team. And basically the purpose of Street Team is to modernize the idea of having a street team.
Back in the day when musicians... you'd have fans who would hit the streets and promote for them and building this connection. Because why did fans do that just for free?  hit the streets and do this, it was because it was for the community, and it was for the connection, and for the access to the artist. And so a street team, one of the things that we build into it is what we call their inner circle. And it's sort of like a Patreon style membership with different tiers of access. And the music relics, which are like the NFTs, are kind of like tokens that grant access to their inner circle. And so I'd be curious to hear your thoughts around that idea of creating a membership community and monetizing that as recurring revenue. And if you've seen anything inspiring, kind of cool ideas as it relates to creating an inner circle community like that?

Emily White:
Oh my gosh, a hundred percent. It's so important. We work with an artist named Julia Noons. I mean, she pays all of her expenses through her Patreon alone. But she also has a really intimate, genuine relationship with her fans. Or I was talking to Cam Franklin from the Sufferers, and she would've no problem problem with me saying, she's like, "I'm just sick of it. I'm sick of the memes. I'm sick of the trends. I'm sick of everything I need to be doing or whatever." And her band is amazing. And I'm like, you just need to create great art, Connect with your fans, collect their mobile phone numbers, collect their email addresses. And then I would pin at the top of your social media, whenever you have a release out or a tour, throw an ad spend behind it if you can. But let people know, drive them to the text message club, drive them to the email list. Because they want to hear from you and they're going to understand when you're just like, I'm too burned out on this stuff.
And obviously this is public, so she'd be fine with me saying it. But it's like, she also smokes joints with her fans on Patreon. You know what I mean? They love it. That works for her. So just figure out what's genuine and authentic to you. What's right for Julia might not be right for Cam and vice versa, but yeah, that's what's going to connect with people for the long term for sure. And think about stuff that you want as a fan. Like I said, it's like I want to hear... I've never lived in Cincinnati, but Cincinnati in the live recording or whatever.

Michael Walker:
So cool. Yeah, Julia Noons, I was trying to think of that name. Definitely rings a bell. Maybe it was her Patreon or a Kickstarter or something I saw with her. But that's fantastic. And oh my gosh, the strategy that you recommended. Look, always be driving people to an email list or a text message list, so you stay connected with them. That's actually a core part of Street Team as well. It's really like a CRM. So it's a CRM with an email, SMS, and a website funnel builder. And that's one of the topics that we really try to encourage artists to build a community and to build a list, that isn't necessarily owned by Mark Zuckerberg or by a platform that isn't theirs. So you don't want to become the next MySpace kind of thing.

Emily White:
100%.

Michael Walker:
Cool. Well hey, this has been a lot of fun. Holy cow. Doing these live, we're probably going to have to do this more often, because this is cool having a live audience here for it. And I feel like for me, it feels like how it took the energy to a slightly different feel in a good way.
So Emily, thank you so much for being a part of this. How about we go to our audience who's here live right now, or any questions that came in beforehand. Again, this is the first time that we've done this type of live interview, and so I think that we probably have a document put together with some questions that people are submitting either beforehand or during this. I know we have a couple members of our team who are moderating. Maybe you guys could share a link to that.
Ari said, smokes Choice on Patreon. Awesome. Yeah, there is something about just that access. The access and the connection, the community aspect of artistry. Music is always... That's one of its main roles. It brings people together and it helps us find like-minded people who are on the same wavelength, that we can smoke weed with. That's what it's all about. Smoking joints on Patreon.
Cool. I see a question here from Bill Romberg. So Bill said, "Hey Emily, thank you for sharing with us. I'm new to home recording and I'm working on my first songs. Should I wait until I have several songs finished to tease and release them or should I get going immediately as I release the songs? Thanks to you both."
Okay. So it sounds like the question in a nutshell is, for a new to home recording, I'm working on some of my first new songs and I'm wondering about my release strategy. Should I release one at a time as immediately as they come out, or should I wait for a bundle and really small at once or how can I start actually releasing these?

Emily White:
I would definitely tease and release for sure. And I understand if artists aren't comfortable doing that, but Bill's asking the question. So that's what I'm talking about. That could be part of your Patreon, that could be part of your pre-order, even if it's a demo or something. I'm currently hosting season two of my podcast as a live taping and interactive workshop. So Saturday's episode you can stream on Volume, is setting up your release and distribution plan. But like I said, you, you've nailed it because you're open to doing that. I would never want to pressure an artist who isn't. I totally understand keeping it under wraps. But yeah, if you're down to share NTs and like I said, take care of those hardcore fans in the early days, definitely do it.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Super cool. And it's probably a good time to mention a friend who is listening to us right now, that if you haven't checked out your guys' podcast yet, we're going to put the links in the show notes, because it's a fantastic resource. And everyone that's listening to this right now, you should definitely go check it out and go follow.
And one analogy that I think of when it comes to... I think this is relevant as well to musicians and being able to create a music scene together, in collaborators and finding similar artists, there's two different mindsets you kind of have. And it seems like early on, especially sometimes it's easy to have a mindset of scarcity or there's competitors or you know, shouldn't be collaborating with other artists. Versus seeing other artists as collaborators and partners and a network that you can build. And it's something that I think that having... I had a point to this that I was going to get to and then I totally lost it.

Emily White:
How about friend or fomo? Well, two things. One, if you're feeling fomo, which is what social media is literally designed to do, I mean it's easy for me to say, but focus on your own green grass, create great art, connect with your fans.

Michael Walker:
I just remembered I what it was too. I had a good analogy for it. And thank you for for covering me. See here we are live, and I knew there was going to be least one moment where I said something like stupid or I slipped or something. So there we go. You guys got it here.
So the thought was around, if you want to master a topic, you don't just go read one book and think, cool. I got it. The way you do it, is you go and you read as many books as possible from multiple different angles and perspectives. And sometimes it's when you read that third one, you hear it from this specific point of view and you kind of see the patterns between different people talking about the same thing in a different way. But it really kind of clicks. And so the reason I brought that up was just that I want to encourage everyone who's here right now to go check out your podcast and to explore and see what everyone is talking about, what everyone's doing. Because I think we're so much... Having different perspectives is so valuable.
And so with that being said, we'll keep on rocking and go to our next question, which is from Anonymous Attendee. So I'm someone who's anonymous, so maybe I should read the question before I ask it, just in case. Okay. Okay. This is a fine question. It's okay to share.
She said, "Hi Emily. If you're doing your own stuff for a hobby, is there a trigger point or a critical mass that you look for where you think that you're ready to go commercial and monetize?" So I think the question in a nutshell was, right now I'm at this point where I'm making music and it's maybe a little bit more of a hobby, but I'd like it to actually pay bills, or like to actually start making income for it. When's the right time to actually start pursuing that? Or do you think there's a critical mass you look for where it actually makes sense to decide now is the time to monetize versus just doing this as a hobby?

Emily White:
Yeah, I don't really think it's monetized or not. It's more like, are you ready to share this with the world or not? And I know that's easier said than done, but it's really intuition. But we've explored it. We had Justin Vernon of Bon Iver on season one, Forget Your Art Together. We just had Vernon Reid of Living Color for season two on Get Your Art Together. And that's really what we're talking about there. When are you ripe and ready to record instead of forcing it? So I wouldn't really think about when should I monetize or not. It's like, well when does your intuition and your heart, soul, tell you like, yes, I am ready. As opposed to coming up to me at a conference like, "Here's my music, but I have to work on my vocals or I need a new drummer or whatever." It's like, when it's ready to share with the world, you should absolutely be monetizing.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Yeah, that totally makes sense. Actually leads nicely into a question that I'm sure you have a great answer for, but... As musicians, it seems like one of the challenges of being a musician is that the reason we got into the industry probably wasn't because we were trying to figure out, what's the easiest, fastest way to make as much money as possible. Because if that was the question, then there's probably easier path to take.
While at the same time it's such a necessary part of being able to create artwork in a more sustainable way and be able to make a bigger impact. And so I'd love to hear your thoughts around the mindset of how artists and musicians in particular, who may feel a little bit squeamish about making money with their music, because they don't want to feel like they sold out, or they think it's wrong somehow to focus on making money, or it somehow sacrifices the artwork by looking at it at that angle. How would you recommend thinking about making money as a musician and kind of reframing that in a way that's more empowering?

Emily White:
I mean, I don't think getting paid to do what you love is bad at all. Isn't that the dream? I think that's why I have those two sets of revenue streams that we talk about in the book and podcasts. It's like, there are 10 that are owed to you if you are writing, recording, releasing, and playing live. I never met anyone that feels bad about that.
And then the bonus revenue streams, that's up to you. But they're subtle too. I remember with the Dresden Dolls, because they're keyboard-drum duo, we used to get requests for sheet music. And this was not by design, it was authentic. When the singer Amanda Palmer was putting that together, she was putting together photos from the recording and handwritten lyrics and stuff. And it ended up becoming, I think it was literally called, because the debut album is self-titled, like the Dresden Dolls Album Companion. I mean, it was kind of the bane of my existence to put together, because it was so much stuff.
And it was really expensive to produce. So it ended up being a $50 coffee table book. And it was so gorgeous and such a cool fan experience that tons of people bought it, who don't even read sheet music. So again, I don't think, I know when it comes from that place of authenticity, you can't go wrong, because that's what's going to connect with your audience.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Yeah, that that's super helpful. And yeah, it seems like an undertone of everything that you're talking about right now and just a deeply understood... From experience, I think that you have from working with so many artists and seeing the value that they're providing for their community, that maybe early on is hard to appreciate.
Is just the fact that what you have is really valuable, and that people really want it. And that you charging for that, you making money is actually a sign of you providing value. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that, but by focusing on providing value first and foremost, that's really the reason that you and all the artists you worked with had so much success, is because they genuinely care about their community and about providing value to them and connecting with them.

Emily White:
Exactly. That's what it's all about, for sure.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Well, hey, speaking about providing value, Emily, thank you so much again for going on here to share some of the lessons and the wisdom that you've learned from a really long career helping artists and being a part of the industry. So super appreciate you and what you're doing, you being a part of this podcast. And I would love to connect to you for a street team, like the Inner Circle membership stuff. It seems like there's some cool alignment there that we can talk more about.

Emily White:
Definitely. That sounds amazing.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. So to wrap things up, for anyone who's listening to this right now, who is interested in diving deeper or learning more from your podcast, what would be the best next step for them to go to connect deeper?

Emily White:
Yeah, definitely. So we're literally in the middle of season two right now, and we're doing live podcast tapings that cover the entire modern music industry in order. From recording to release and creation to execution.
So that is... January is wrapping up. It's normally every Saturday and Tues, but then in February, through February 18th, it's going to be every Saturday and Monday because I have some speaking engagements and some other things going on. And we're also avoiding Valentine's. So yeah, come hang out. I've been solving musicians problems in real time and it's been a blast. So you can check it out on volume.com and I dropped the link and the chat.

Michael Walker:
Cool. Well, hey Emily, this has been super awesome. Thanks again. If there's anything that I can do to reciprocate or help out in terms of podcasts, I'd love to have a conversation and connect more on Street Team.
And again, for anyone that's listening or watching us right now, whether you're here live or whether you're listening or watching the replay, we'll have the links in the show notes for easy access. And if you're listening to this right now on our podcast, this is the first time I've ever actually said this, because this is the first time that we've been doing this live. But if you're watching this or listening to this as a replay and you'd like to be a part of the live taping of it, we have our music mentor membership that is available that you can learn more about.
We'll have a link on the show notes, but that's basically a platform that we've built to be able to connect with amazing people like Emily White and tons of experts in the music industry. Now hundreds of music industry experts, and create a network to be able to provide value for you and be able to connect you with industry experts. So if that's something that you'd like to learn more about, you can click on the link in the show notes for Music Mentor and otherwise, till next time.
(singing)

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guests today. And if you want to support the podcast, then there's a few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe, then I'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends or on your social media, tag us. That really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take their music careers to the next level. The time to be a modern musician is now, and I'll look forward to seeing you on our next episode.