Mack Borys:
Well, but that's the main problem that artists come to us with. They think that there's one missing piece, and when it gets solved, their career is going to take off. So what we do, and what mentoring as a whole does is go back to the root of the problem and... Almost like artist development, which seems like a long lost thing nowadays. And just helping them create a bulletproof plan, not just now, but for tomorrow, and next year, and all that.

Michael Walker:
It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician, and it's only getting better. If you have high quality music but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution of today's music industry, and this is your imitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.
All right, excited to be here today with Mack Borys. So, Mack founded a company called Musician Guidance, which is a music mentoring platform that helps directly connect independent artists one-on-one with mentoring from some music industry leaders, including Grammy Award winners, celebrity coaches, and more. He's teamed up with the music industry's brightest stars, and music companies across the globe with a goal of helping artists to get direct feedback and direct mentorship from people who've actually been there, who've actually done that. So, super cool. So, Mack, thanks so much for taking the time to be here today.

Mack Borys:
Hey, thank you for the invite. I'm super excited for this, and I love what you're doing with Modern Musician. So when I was asked to be a part of it, it as a no brainer.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's going to be great to talk about the power of mentorship in general, right? I think mentors in my own life have completely changed who I am and where I'm at, and I think mentorship in its nature is just so inherent to one of the human needs, both to be mentored, and also to mentor other people, and just as a study of success in general. And no one who's achieving at the top of their industry just happened by accident. They all have mentors, and they all have exactly the Dumbledore kind of character who shows up to be able to help guide them. So it's something that's super important. So to start out with, I'd love to hear just a little bit about yourself, and your story, and how you got started with Musician Guidance.

Mack Borys:
Sure, yeah, I'd love to share it. It was anything but a traditional path. Growing up, I was not a fan of music, to be honest. I wouldn't listen to it. And now I did play the alto saxophone for maybe four to five years, but that was it. I was that weird guy that would get in the car and not listen to the radio, not have any song going, or anything like that. And I think it stemmed from, no one in my family sung, or played an instrument, or anything like that. And then in my car, I didn't have an aux cord or anything like that, and I didn't have Bluetooth, I had a CD player and a cassette player, and I didn't have that at the time. So I just grew up not really involved in music.
But that really changed when I was going through some darker times in my life. And I know that sounds cliché, but I found music, and I went from not listening to it at all to listening to it 12 hours a day whenever I could. And that initially was Avicii on repeat, Hey Brother, especially. I probably gave him 200 streams a day.
But just knowing how much music impacted me and how it helped me, I wanted to learn more about it. And not so much learn how to make it, because that wasn't too much of a passion of mine, but rather learn how to help others succeed. And I guess that stemmed too from, I have some really close friends of mine who actually just completed a six city tour, I think it was, across Canada and the US. And I would go to coffee shops dating back to 10 years ago, watching them perform, watching them start out.
And obviously, I was biased, but I couldn't understand why they weren't breaking through. And then when I did eventually listen to the radio, because I did get into the radio, I know I'm a fairly young guy, everything sounded the same. And I just couldn't understand why artists that were putting in the time and creating actual art were being suppressed by this commercial music, what I'll call. So I wanted to get into helping them. And I had no connections in the music industry, no knowledge of music or the music business, but I know what I wanted to achieve, which was mentoring. Because personally speaking, and I know we touched on the power of it, I have had amazing mentors in my personal and professional life.
I played soccer growing up quite competitively and I know I had coaches that would play in some of the biggest leagues, and they taught me how to interact and how to act around scouts, right? And then as I got into business, they helped me navigate potentially challenging issues. So I knew the power of mentoring and I wanted to bring that to the music industry. Not that I was the first or anything like that, but it was just something I wanted to try and do on a greater scale.
So that was the goal. But again, no idea how I was going to do it. So I went, picked up a phone, just literally would scour the internet, cold call people, send cold emails, listen to podcasts like this, and just connect with the guests. And eventually, I was able to form two relationships with professionals. And that was great. But with two mentors, you're not able to reach the audience I wanted to.
So I had to be creative. And that started out as running online music competitions in which I rewarded the winner with mentoring. And that was good, but I steered away from my goal, because I wasn't able to help everyone. So those that didn't win could still be falling into scams, could still be spending money on things that aren't going to get them to where they want to be. So I went back to the drawing board, did a lot more cold calling, a lot more listening to podcasts and reaching out. And I was eventually able to form relationships with about 20 professionals, which I brought on when we launched Musician Guidance. So that's been my journey to where I am.

Michael Walker:
Very cool. Yeah, and I think that just hearing your perspective and your drive is something that hopefully people can take away from this is starting out... I was the exact same way starting out Modern Musicians, same thing starting out my band Paradise Fears. And it seems like a lot of people that I meet, they started out and they had this hustle and this drive to just go connect, to just go meet people, and to reach out, and to cold call, to you start meeting as many people as possible.
And it's pretty amazing if you're willing to do that and you're willing to hear a bunch of no's, or more likely just not get responses at all. But then you get those two people who do get back to you and say yes, a lot of times that's really how you can get that first "big break". So that's awesome. So now you've got this crew of 20 mentors who are helping other artists. And I'd be curious to hear your perspective on, what are some of the biggest challenges that you see artists struggling with when they first come to Musicians Guidance?

Mack Borys:
Yeah, I mean, there's the obvious ones, lack of guidance, lack of connections, and all that. But I want to take a step back, because what I feel like we do is we solve the root issue. And I think the biggest problem in the music industry is the industry itself, and the environment that artists are having to work in, because every day they're being beaten down with scams, right? And if we worked at a company, and I don't know, let's say our boss tried to scam us for example, the first thing we're going to do is pack our bags and leave.
But unfortunately, you can't really do that in the music industry, because even if you block one scammer you're going to be bombarded with another, right? Or you're going to go on Instagram and you're going to be hit with an ad for a service you don't need. And I don't want to get caught up on the scams, because we definitely help avoid that. But I think another issue that stems from that is people doing music for the wrong reasons. And there are platforms now, which I'm sure you're familiar with, where you can get artificial intelligence to create a song for you just like that. You go on the website, insert, I don't know, pop, rock, click generate, and boom, songs created.

Michael Walker:
Out of curiosity, do you know what the names of any of those platforms are? I mean, I've started using AI mostly for a cover art generation, like DALL-E.

Mack Borys:
Yeah.

Michael Walker:
DALL-E is so cool.

Mack Borys:
It is, yeah.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. Have you played around with any of the music ones, and what do those look like?

Mack Borys:
I haven't played around with them, but Apple just bought one out, so it's going to-

Michael Walker:
Wow.

Mack Borys:
We're trending in that direction.

Michael Walker:
It's going to be insane. Yeah.

Mack Borys:
It is insane. And it's not necessarily the direction I'm a fan of. I'm quite passionate about speaking against it, because I feel like it's... There was the new report put out, I don't know, a week or two ago now that there are 100,000 songs uploaded to Spotify now. And I don't want to say a lot of them are AI. But the problem with it is artificial intelligence is suppressing artists that are investing in their music, putting hours and hours into their craft and all that. And it's taking jobs away too from producers, beat makers and all that. So I think that's kind of one problem.
And then in addition to that, there are artists that are, I don't even want to call them artists, there are people that are uploading 30, or I think its 60-second song clips to Spotify to try and get more streams, right? And I understand some people doing it in protest for Spotify's poor payout. But I just fear we're on a slippery slope to losing what we know and love about music through this technological era we're going into. I mean, there used to be seven-minute songs. Then I went down to five minutes, we're at three minutes now. And I don't know what's coming next.

Michael Walker:
15 second moments.

Mack Borys:
Yeah, there you go. Yeah.

Michael Walker:
So we have a marketplace that we're creating right now for, what we're calling music relics, where we basically create three different music assets. And one of them an album, one of them is a song and then one of them is a moment, which is a 50-second clip. Certainly, our attention span seems like it's been trending down.

Mack Borys:
Sure, yeah.

Michael Walker:
And it's interesting too, when you mentioned the amount of scams that are online right now. It's so true. And it seems like that's the case in a lot of industries too, it's not necessarily just exclusive to the music... I could hit up so... I'm sure almost everyone listening to this gets a whole bunch of texts, and calls, and spam numbers. It's like, how is this even a thing? But certainly something to be aware of, especially when it comes to Facebook side. There's a ton of people who get scammed where it's a Facebook email that's phishing or it's like, "Hey, your account's been blocked, just sign in here."

Mack Borys:
Oh I know.

Michael Walker:
And you sign in. And then their Facebook gets canceled and disabled. It's awful.

Mack Borys:
It is. And as you touched on there though, that's in any industry, music, film, automotive, Right? Whatever it is. But I think in the music industry, it's almost creating another problem now, which is that, because of these scams, and these manufactured success stories, and the false narrative, I guess too, being placed on artists that if they haven't really achieved... If they haven't sold 100 million albums, or if they're not an international star by the age of 20, that they fail.

Michael Walker:
Right.

Mack Borys:
And it's sad to see. And I feel like it's causing them to buy into things that aren't right for them at that point in their career.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, that's a really important point. I feel like that's one of the shifts and the old model with major record label industries, because there's so few channels of distribution that it was almost, either you made it really big or you didn't. And maybe you've experienced this too, or the artists that you've worked with where there's almost this weird expectation, in the music industry especially, that if someone asks, "What's the name of your band?" And you say the name of your band and they don't recognize you, then it's immediately they're like, "Oh, they're not successful." Which is so funny to think about. Someone could have a six figure or even seven figure music career, but just because they're not a household name, the first thought is that they haven't really made it, right? "Made it". So that's definitely an interesting narrative. What are your thoughts on that in terms of how things have shifted now with maybe the internet as an equalizer, and how people reframe that thought of having made it?

Mack Borys:
Yeah, I mean, I don't know what made it means, it's dependent on what success is to each artist. But I will say, the internet is great in the sense it provided social media and a way for artists to release their music without going through a label or something like that. Because that really empowers the artist. They can upload it to TikTok now and reach a wider audience, which is beautiful. Yeah. So I think that that's great. But again, there's still that narrative. I know a lot of people are being judged on how many social media followers they have, right? Rather than how great of a song they can create. And it's just sad to see it in my opinion.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, yeah, it is an interesting one where it's [inaudible 00:12:51] if you build it and they will come doesn't really work anymore, because there's so much information, so much stuff online. Interesting too, to hear the conversation around AI and the fact that you can generate music and tracks now automatically is pretty fascinating.

Mack Borys:
It's cool, no doubt, for sure. Yeah.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. It's interesting too, because I mean, I think it's an important conversation, because I think that this is a tidal wave that we're starting to experience right now in terms of the rate of growth for humanity over the last few million years compared to computers in the last 100 years is the trajectory is just crazy.

Mack Borys:
Yeah.

Michael Walker:
And so thinking about that in the short term and a bit longer term being 20, 50 years from now, what does that mean for us as creators, as artists, and how should we view AI and using this type of digital intelligence to help create music? Is it something that we should avoid or push back against, or is it something that we should be using as a tool? I will say with DALL-E for cover art, it's opened up this world where if anyone hasn't played around with this yet, if you go to open AI.com and check out DALL-E, basically if you have an album art for a single that you haven't created yet, you could go to DALL-E and type in. "Watercolor painting of a dog jumping over the moon while it chases a bone that is held by a fairy princess."
And if you type that in, it's literally going to take 15 seconds and it's going to pop out an exact image of what you described. And for cover art, it's pretty dang cool, right? And it definitely makes you wonder how long or if things are going to work out in regards to musicians. I mean, for artists and photographers, they might look at a tool like that and be threatened, maybe for good reason, because now their role or their job can be replaced. And how should we navigate that wave as it happens and there are jobs being displaced, where should we focus our time to be able to align with that movement? Big question to talk about right now, but I'd love to hear your perspective on that.

Mack Borys:
Yeah, I mean, I think we're at the early stages of it still, so I'm not sure how it's going to pan out. But it definitely could be a threat to them at the same time. And it probably is. At the same time, personalization and that human aspect is something people are always going to enjoy and always going to want. So I don't think that... Which, for a good reason, I don't think that those people will necessarily, true artists in that sense, and graphic designers and all that, will lose their jobs, which is good. But they may get less work, which is not great in my opinion. I'm all about empowering people and all that, and I love technology, I wouldn't be sitting here without it. But yeah, I do feel it's a slippery slope. And I guess, I think we're three to five years out really from all of this, from us realizing where all this will take us. But it is a cool discussion to have now.

Michael Walker:
100%. Yeah, it's interesting too, I don't know, the equalizer... I guess, the idea of being able to... Just because you can theoretically create this artwork, you have to program it, I guess, or you have to prompt it, and there is some last mile delivery with it. So it does seem like the people who would be most successful using a platform like that are probably the people who can best visualize what's the outcome, or what's the thing they want to create, and then be able to, I don't know, do 80% of the work just by having the AI generate the part that it can. And then the last 20% being able to customize it, or play around with it, or tweak it. So maybe in that standpoint, these artists, they might just be able to free up their time to focus more on the, like you were talking about, the personalization of those things.

Mack Borys:
Well, that would be awesome. Yeah. Because I mean, right now they're wearing 20 hats. They're already marketing themselves, they're their own roadie, their own booking agent. So I mean, if they can free up time and work together, I guess, hand in hand with that, and add the personalization at the end, yeah, I mean, that could be very cool. Yeah, that could work.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. One thing that's interesting, I've put a pretty good amount of thought into artificial intelligence or what I've been calling digital intelligence, because I think artificial implies its fake or it's not real, but it is real. It's just a different type of intelligence. And in the short future, probably it won't feel right to call it artificial, because it's going to be able to articulate itself as well as humans.
And it's interesting to, yeah, to think about, how do we navigate that path as it's happening? And it seems like one of the last things that it will be able to recreate is that you have the human elements of what we're currently doing. And maybe that's the creative prompts, or the thoughts, or the ideas, or as it relates to Musician Guidance, and the type of work that we're doing here is mentorship, right? And the connection, and being able to be present with each other, with human to human contact. It seems like one of those things that is probably never going to be able to be totally replaced by computers because there is maybe a core humanness to it, at least it seems like it. We'll see if there's going to be super smart AI mentor bots that can guide us in the right direction based on big data.
But yeah, I would love to dig into that a little bit more in terms of the mentorship angle, and Musician Guidance, and what are some of the patterns that you started to see around... Well, say that someone's listening to this, or watching this right now, and they feel like... And I think all of us feel like this to some degree, is we feel like we need a mentor that's at the next level, someone that can help guide us and give us hands on help towards that path. How do we find the right mentor? How do we identify where should we be looking for a mentor? And what is it that you think goes into successfully dialing in that process of finding the right mentor?

Mack Borys:
Yeah, that's a great question. So I'd say definitely just look for someone that has achieved what you're actually wanting to do, rather than someone selling a course when they're at the same stage as yourself. So learning from experience basically. And so when I was founding Musician Guidance, it was very important to me to bring on a mentor from nearly every niche in the industry. So publishing label executives, managers, and all of that. So we have someone there for you. And I think when you find a mentor, I think it's important that they empower you, and they work with you to get you to the destination rather than do the work for you.

Michael Walker:
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Mack Borys:
Right. I think when you work together there... And they let you fail too, because I think we learn a lot when we fail. But they're there to pick you up and then guide you back in the right direction. I think that's huge. I think what I will say is, there are a lot of people with great experience and great resumes that you can find, but not everyone has the ability to be a teacher and to mentor.
And I think ensuring that they have that quality too, which is why I said I was listening to podcasts before I was reaching out to them, because I wanted to make sure that they could share stuff in a way that could help others, right? So yeah, I'd say finding mentors that have experience in what you want to achieve, and also have the ability to teach. And in terms of places to find them, I mean, obviously I'm going to say us, there's Modern Musician, there's many places online. But I would be patient in it, and I would... Because a mentor is someone you want to work with long time, long term. So I'd be patient with it, and just yeah, there's some great resources to find them.

Michael Walker:
100%. Yeah, there's some really good stuff in there. And it is an interesting, aha moment I think is sort of recognizing too, that finding the right mentor, in a lot of cases, right, ideally they're someone who has done the thing that you're looking to do successfully. So they have experience, they have context to it. But it also is true that there's some of the most successful mentors and coaches have never done the thing themselves. They're not the top of the game, right?

Mack Borys:
Right.

Michael Walker:
There's certain coaches who have the most winningest streak, but they themselves aren't the people, but they are able... They're great coaches. So it is sometimes a balance of finding those two things. And how about in terms of... Oh, and one other thing that I'll mention to you around mentorship is just that it seems like sometimes there's the sense of... I don't think it necessarily has to be like you choose one or the other like you only have one mentor. Especially nowadays, if you want to master a topic, or master something, you don't just read one book on the subject, you're like, "I got it, okay, I'm good."

Mack Borys:
Yeah.

Michael Walker:
Right? It takes exploring and reading multiple different books from different angles, and you start to see, wow, these books are pointing towards the same concepts, or, oh, they put it into a different perspective, and I hadn't really thought about it that way. And it does seem like there's sort of a network that... One of the best things you could benefit yourself is to get different angles and different perspectives rather than thinking that... Never believing one viewpoint and saying, "This is the ultimate only viewpoint there ever can be." But there's different angles and different ways to look at the same thing.

Mack Borys:
That's a great point, Michael. And also, nobody knows everything, and no one can do everything. So it's important to find a mentor in each specialty, right, or a service in each specialty. And that's why I have no problem referring our clients elsewhere, right? If I think somebody can do something better, I'm going to refer them to them.

Michael Walker:
Totally. And one point that you just brought up too, that I think is really important, is sort of the role of a mentor to be able to guide someone, but that they're taking... That they have to learn themselves too, and take their own steps, right? When you think about Dumbledore, when you think about Yoda, they're great teachers, they're great mentors, but ultimately, it was Luke that had to sort of take those steps, and it was Harry Potter who had to take those steps. And it's us who are leading the way. And we learned from different mentors, but ultimately, it is something... It's more about guidance as opposed to doing the thing.

Mack Borys:
Right.

Michael Walker:
As well as the point that you made around being willing to make mistakes and learning through those mistakes. Do you have any ideas around how... Because as someone who's made a lot of mistakes, I could say that it doesn't stop. You keep making mistakes, and you keep learning from them. But one of the most valuable, most important mindsets and sort of practices has been learning from those mistakes, and put in... Coming to them at an appropriate time for when the feedback is... So you can adapt and learn from them. So I'd be curious to hear, for someone who, let's say that they have a mentor, let's say that they're working with someone from Musicians Guidance, or they have a mentor in any area of their life, and they're looking to grow as quickly as possible, how do you recommend that they maybe set goals? And how do they course correct, or how do they set up a space where they can make those mistakes and learn from them in the most effective way?

Mack Borys:
Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's just in terms of goals, you touched on that, so I'll answer that first. It's first of all, setting measurable goals, right, so you can actually achieve it. If your goal is to get an increase in followers, right? Well, if you get one follower, there, you reached the goal, right? But if you set reach 10,000 followers or whatever, now you have something attainable that you can work through, and then you can reverse engineer and work back from there. So let's get 5,000 followers in the next month. And to do that, let's get on three blogs, let's do four duets, or whatever, something like that. So just setting measurable goals.
In terms of what I'll call a blueprint in terms of, I guess, going through that and checking in with mentors, it would be to... And this is what we do. So we listen to our clients, we listen to their challenges, we listen to their successes, we figure out what's worked, what hasn't. And then we might propose something, right? Propose a strategy they try, or give them something to think about. And then they go off on their own, think about it, try something, and then come back to us, and then we'll assess results and go from there.
So we have a marketing plan for example. And no two music journeys are the same, everybody has a different story. So you can't really give one plan for everyone. But we have a list of, I want to say it's 50 to 100 questions that we give out to them and they answer so they get a crystal clear idea of what their music is, who it's for, what it can solve, what's the personality of their music, all of that stuff.
They come back to us with it. So they've done all the work. We analyze it, and then we propose a strategy. And then we'll send them out with more questions. So they do it, come back to us. And then from that, we'll figure out which distribution channel is best, which message is best, and all this stuff. So it's just being set off in the right direction with almost homework, [inaudible 00:28:21] you can do it and then come back to us. And if you come back to us and we see inconsistencies with it, well then we'll let you know, send them back out. And that would be, I guess, you could deem a fail. But it's just learning from it, and then correct it, and then go from there.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. And it reminds me of, one of my mentors has this idea of everything is a test. And I don't think they own this concept, but it's a great mindset, just everything is a test, right? And so it sounds like what you're saying is that a good place to start is, first you set definite goals, so it's measurable, you know exactly like, "Have I achieved it? Yes or no?" And you can reverse engineer it.
And then from there, you have to sort of set hypothesis, or you have to set a proposal or an idea of I think... So my goal is to grow 10,000 people on my email list, or 10,000 followers on TikTok or Instagram. Okay, great. So now how do I do that? What's the bridge? How do I do that? Well, hypothesis is, if I follow a hundred people a day that follow my favorite bands, and then I reach out to each of them, and I reach out to X amount of people per day, then I will be able to achieve this goal.
And with a hypothesis, it's a test, right? It's like, "Okay, cool. So let's go and see what happens, let's see if it works." And then you report back. So you basically come back, and you look, and you say, "What were the results of this hypothesis? Was it accurate? Was it on track? Or was it not, right?"
And it's a very scientific approach to breaking down those goals and seeing, are you moving in the right direction? And learning from it. So I think that process is super smart that you just laid out. And that's a similar process to what I personally do, and what all my mentors and the successful people that I know do themselves, is getting clear on their goals, start testing things, experimenting, and seeing what moves them closer to it, and being willing to adjust, and willing to learn based on what's happening.

Mack Borys:
Yeah.

Michael Walker:
Cool. What do you say are some of the other biggest, maybe let's say mistakes, or just misinterpretations, or what are some things that artists, when they come to you, they believe, but ain't necessarily the way that it actually is?

Mack Borys:
Where do I begin? No, I stand with the artist, because I understand... I'm not an artist. But as an outsider looking in, I see what they're bombarded with. So I always try to sympathize with them. And a lot of the times it's just that they see the service and they feel it's the missing link to their success, right?
I'll give an example for this. I had an artist come to me the other day who you could tell he was sad with the actualization of where he was at compared to where the industry thought he should be, or told him he should be. So he saw this service for, it was a playlisting company when he came to me and he is like, "Should I do this? I think this is just what I need for my big break." And it was a reputable company, no problem referring him to them.
But the problem in this example and in general is, they come to us thinking that this is the be all end all when they haven't maybe thought of the next step. So I asked him, I'm like, "You're going to spend X amount of dollars and you're going to get X amount of streams, right, on average. And then what?" Right? And then he was like, "Well, people are going to love my music and they're going to go and buy my merchandise."
So I entertained the thought, I'm like, "Okay, send me the Spotify link." I listened to it. I like the song, but I don't see where I can buy his merchandise, right? So then I go to him and I'm like, "I like the song, but I'm sorry, I can't support you because I don't know where to buy your merchandise." And he's like, "Well, just look at my website." But how am I supposed to know that?
So the missing link there was creating the funnel to direct a first time listener into a diehard fan over time. And I think that's the main... That's one example. But that's the main problem that artists come to us with. They think that there's one missing piece, and when it gets solved, their career is going to take off. So what we do, and what mentoring as a whole does is go back to the root of the problem and... Almost like artist development, which seems like a long lost thing nowadays. And just helping them create a bulletproof plan, not just now, but for tomorrow, and next year, and all that.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. Yeah, that's definitely a great takeaway, that there's not one end all be all solution. There's not one book that you read, again, where it's like, "Now I know everything because of this one book." It's all useful tools and perspectives, but everyone has their own path and you're going to take things that you like and resonate with from one person, and there's different tools that aren't going to work for you. And so you have to, in some ways, see what works for you.
The one thing that you just brought up that I think would be great to get your perspective on, because I know this is one of the biggest challenges or things that I see people running into is using services that maybe either artificially or legitimately increase their streams on Spotify. And then they realized that there wasn't really a direct way to connect with those fans, or there's sort of this platform that they don't own, that they don't even know who those people are, if they're real people or not.

Mack Borys:
Right.

Michael Walker:
So I'm curious if you have any insights perspective on strategies for directly connecting with those fans in a way that you have more of a relationship with them as opposed to sending them to Spotify where they're... You may or may not really build a deeper relationship with them.

Mack Borys:
I mean I definitely recommend they build an email list if they haven't already. Because that is an audience that you own, right? And I know it's sounds weird to say that. But if Instagram goes down tomorrow, if Spotify goes down tomorrow, you lose your following there. But on your email list you... I keep saying own, I don't like that word, but you have access to them no matter what.

Michael Walker:
You own. You rule these people.

Mack Borys:
Right. Yeah, I could definitely think of a better word.

Michael Walker:
It's true though. No, I mean, think own, you don't own them as a person, but you own that list, right? Which is totally true. If you're on Spotify, you don't own that audience list. Spotify owns that audience. If you're on Facebook, you don't own that audience. Mark Zuckerberg owns that audience. So a 100% what you're saying, owning this list, this communication, this relationship is super important. And that's with StreetTeam, that's basically the platform that we've built to help artists to be able to own their list, or own their relationship is probably a better way of putting it.

Mack Borys:
I like that. I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Walker:
Own their relationship with their fans. You don't necessarily own your fans.

Mack Borys:
Well said.

Michael Walker:
But you can own the relationship. So it might be something for us to connect on after this call or something, is maybe doing a collaboration where we can sync up on the StreetTeam related stuff. But how about in terms of, so when it comes to building an email list, one, how do artists introduce themselves to new fans who might be interested in joining their email list? And then two, how do they position the offer to join their email list in a way that's actually valuable and sort of provides something cool for the fan rather than just saying, "Join my mailing list."?

Mack Borys:
Well, you hit the nail on the head there. It's ultimately just providing value to get their email address. So however that looks to your audience. I mean, those listening are going to know their audience better than I will. But it could be releasing an unreleased song. So, "If you join my newsletter, I'll give you access to an unreleased song I just wrote." Or maybe it's, "If you join my email list, you can ask a question that I'll answer in an upcoming Q&A." Or just some piece of value that is desirable to your audience. At the end of the day, that's what it is in its simplest form.

Michael Walker:
Totally. Yep, 100%. And the marketing industry calls this creating a lead magnet, right? It's having something that's a gift or something valuable to offer in exchange for them joining. Or we call it a fan magnet, because we're not very original and we just like the ideas that are common ones and try to help apply it to the music industry. But super, super helpful. And how about in terms of finding those people and being able to position, and communicate with them, and build a relationship before offering them this fan magnet, or this gift to be able to bring them onto your community?

Mack Borys:
I mean, yeah, it's about building credibility, which I mean, the easiest way to... You need money or you need time, in a sense, to do that. And I think if you have both, you're laughing, if you have one, great. And I think using Facebook, Instagram ads like that are a great way if done right. A lot of the time people go in for the kill, so to speak, and they go right for the sale.
But if you use them as a way to maybe provide value for, and then hit them with an offer to join your email list, I think that's great. And I think using social media as a discovery tool and then the email list is a way to nurture them, I think that is something that's going to be your best bet. So what I would do to be more specific is maybe put out a song on Facebook, on Instagram ads, show people your talent. And then those that maybe watch 15 seconds of it, you can re-target them with Facebook's tools with maybe being offered to join your email list to then give them access to another song.
And then once they're on your email list, whenever you release a new song, you can send that out to them, when you ever have a story to share, you can send that out to them. And you can create more of a personal touch. And also longer form content too than on Instagram or TikTok especially, where you maybe got three seconds, right? On Instagram can... Or sorry, on email, you can bring them through a story.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Cool. Well, hey, man, I appreciate you hopping on here to share some insights. I mean, and you're what, 23 years old? Did I get that right?

Mack Borys:
That's right, yeah.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. You're already way more mature than I was when I was 23 years old.

Mack Borys:
You're too kind.

Michael Walker:
I was living in my van making all sorts of crazy decisions and mistakes. But thank you for taking ownership of this role, and looking to provide value and mentorship to artists. I think it's an industry that really needs it, and it's part of our mission as well. I think that we're aligned in that way. So I'd love to be able to support and collaborate with you and with your mentors as well, if there's anything we can do to provide value. And for anyone who's listening this right now who would like to learn more or connect deeper when it comes to music, Musicians Guidance, what's the best place for them to go to learn more?

Mack Borys:
Yeah, definitely. Probably our website. So it's just musicianguidance.com. Or they can message us on Instagram with the handle @musicianguidance. I also recently set up an Instagram page. I think I have one post now, but it's just a way for me to personally connect with clients, and artists, and all that. So it's @mack.b.music. Probably looks like a scam because I got one post and a few followers, but I swear it's me.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Are you sure it's not like an AI bot version of Mack that's generating... Generates an Instagram that accumulates 20,000 followers, click. Someday. Cool, man. Well, hey, appreciate you hopping on here. And like always, we're going to put all the links and whatnot in the show notes. And we'll talk again soon.

Mack Borys:
Thank you, Michael. I appreciate it. Take care.

Michael Walker
Yeah.

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about the guest today. And if you want to support the podcast, then there's a few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe, then that'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends or on your social media, tag us, that really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take their music careers to the next level. The time to be a modern musician is now. And I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.