Chris SD:
And I've talked to so many people who will say, "Oh, music licensing is so hard. It's impossible. It's a lottery. It's a game of chance, blah, blah, blah." It's like you go to Sync Songwriter on our website and go under testimonials. It's not just a bunch of people saying, "We love your course." There's actual real results. There's a bunch of videos of real students getting real sync results over and over and over again.

Michael Walker:
It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician and it's only getting better. If you have high quality music but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Micheal Walker.

Michael Walker:
So I'm here today with Chris SD. A friend of mine. And he runs a business called Sync Songwriter that helps artists to get their music licensed to TV, film, video games, small businesses. And Chris is amazing. He's an award winning music producer. He was engineer of the year in 2012, he's helped record five Juno Award winning albums. And Juno Awards are basically Grammies for Canadians. And so he's a total badass in terms of the production and he's been licensed on ABC, NBC, Fox, Hulu, more than I could count. We could spend the next hour just talking about all the different placements you've gotten.

Michael Walker:
But I think it's going to be really valuable talking with him to kind of help you, if you feel like you're at the point where your music is ready to be licensed to TV, film, and some of these other placements, then he has a pretty amazing five step system to allow you to do that. So, Chris, thanks so much for taking the time to be here today.

Chris SD:
Hey, Mike, thanks so much. And I may have said this before but you can be my agent anytime. Whenever I'm feeling bad, I'll just keep you on the speed dial and I could just dial you up and you can tell me how awesome I'm doing.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, dude, what's great is like this is recorded right now so we can just take a clip of this interview and you wake up in the morning, it can be your alarm clock.

Chris SD:
Be my alarm clock every morning. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Walker:
And affirmations when you go to sleep so you can just have it playing on repeat just over and over and over.

Chris SD:
I like it, I like it.

Michael Walker:
At this point, we've had multiple conversations. We actually went on a mastermind together on your sailboats. We went to Catalina and it was incredible. So yeah, we know each other really well but could you give a quick introduction of who you are and how you got started on this path of music licensing?

Chris SD:
Yeah, of course, of course. So essentially when I was a music producer in Canada and I was having success, I was working with some bigger artists in Canada and then I was also working with indie artists at the same time. I had both going on at the same time. And when the indie artists would come in to the studio, it was always a question of budget and time and how are we going to make a great record with a little amount of money and all of that. The big stars would come in and they'd have all this cash and managers and agents and everything like that. And the indie artists were always struggling to make the ends meet. It was one of these fancy, big studios with knee boards and B47s, U67s. Lots of fancy gear.

Chris SD:
And so one thing that struck me was like we would work on a record, we'd work really hard on a record and really try to make it happen within a shorter period of time, put in a lot of hours, I'd throw in free hours because I really have a real care and a heart for indie songwriters and indie musicians because so much of the music that gets made starts out with people, at least when they write their songs, as indies. Even the big stars, when they wrote a lot of their hits, they were like scraping things together. So I've always supported indie music in that way.

Chris SD:
But bottom line is we'd put our blood, sweat, and tears into a record. And then the album would go out into the ether and nothing would happen, right? Because they didn't have the booking agents, they didn't have the publicist, they may not have a record deal, of course, if they're indie. They didn't have all these other things that the stars had. And so these records would just sort of... some of them would percolate up and do okay. And there were a few that did well but there's a bunch of other ones that sort of just got lost. They never really happened.

Chris SD:
And I started thinking, "Well, how are indie musicians going to make money? How is that going to happen for them? How can they get more exposure without having all of these people working for them?" And that was when music licensing was first starting to become something. It was the first time where it wasn't uncool to have your song on a cool show or something like that. Before, in the '90s, it was sort of like probably before the late '90s, it was not what you did. That was kind of selling out. You just didn't sync your music, generally. Especially to ads and things like that.

Chris SD:
Well, if it's the right thing, if it's something that you would buy or if it's a show that you would watch that you think is really cool, why wouldn't you want to have your music in it, right? So the advantages of this is, of course, you get paid up front a sync fee. Usually it's big. If you get into a top network show, you're into the 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 dollars and if it's a really big like a finale or something, you're going into 20s, 30s, I got an artist 30,000 dollars for one placement.

Chris SD:
So that just goes to show that the cash is amazing for indie musicians. And then there's the back end royalties. So once you get into a show and it gets re-aired, every single time you get these back end royalties coming in which is an incredible thing every month, you're checking out your bank account, you have multiple streams usually by then. You've got a few syncs going on at the same time, you've got different royalty streams coming in. So amazing. How much work did you do to make that?

Chris SD:
Well, not much more than making your music. So the trick is how you do that. So when I discovered all this, how I got into it was literally when I got into doing this, it was like connecting with the music supervisors and figuring out how all of this fit together. I had no idea. So this was something that really started to percolate while I was in the studio helping these indie musicians and had had a little bit of experience before when I was like a broke indie engineer with my home studio recording my buddies for beer. I got someone a sync in a movie called Crime Spree. And that was like, "Oh my god, this is amazing. Really? This is how easy it is and you can get all this money?"

Chris SD:
And so that's where it started. It started to build over time and then up in Toronto I got to know a lot more people there. And then as it went on and I moved to LA, again, I just expanded my network of music supervisors, those are the people who get your music into TV and film. So I just essentially started showing people how to do it. I used to do it in the studio one on one with bands just to help them. And then just a few years ago I decided to start Sync Songwriter and scale it and I've been showing indie musicians and songwriters and producers how to get their music into TV and film. And the success stories are amazing.

Chris SD:
So it's been really, really, really not only heartwarming but like awesome for the company to say, "Hey, check out how much success you can get by just being an indie songwriter living anywhere." You don't have to live in LA. You don't have to live in New York or Paris or Berlin or wherever your center is wherever you live. You can do this from anywhere. So that's the nutshell.

Michael Walker:
Dude. Amazing. So it sounds like what you're saying is, for you, licensing kind of came into the picture for a lot of musicians, and I hear this all the time too because it's just the state of things, is that it can be really challenging to make an income as a musician. Especially an independent artist who you're just getting started out. And it sounds like what you're saying is licensing can be an amazing stream of income that doesn't necessarily require a lot of additional investment because you've already recorded the songs anyways. So you're sitting on essentially this diamond inside of you, they might not even realize that you have this opportunity, it's just a matter of taking those songs and getting them placed onto the shows.

Chris SD:
Yeah, totally. So I'm on sailboat right now. I'm sitting on sailboat. And I'm in a marina and we take our sailboat out when we sail with it. So when we're on the boat, it's not as nice as living in an apartment even. So there's some compromises that you have to make on a sailboat. It's a big sailboat, I like it. It's got the deck and I can go in the cockpit and all this other stuff. Take my dingy over to Trader Joe's and shop. That's fun. But really when it comes down to the lifestyle, the boat really shines when it's out, when you go to Catalina, like when we sailed to Catalina when we actually it take it somewhere. We're going to go to Mexico and Hawaii with it and the pacific northwest and all this other stuff. That's where it starts to shine. I already own the boat so by the boat sitting in a marina, it's like your songs sitting, not doing anything.

Chris SD:
You might put it up on SoundCloud, you might put it up in social, you might do a few things with it, friends and family, you've got a few fans. And then it just sort of fades away. You've got to record something new, put all this effort into it. So you already own the songs. The songwriting is, even from a production point of view, is like probably 85% of the way there. Let's use a really old, easy to understand archetype. You listen to Strawberry Fields, let's say. So if you listen to-

Michael Walker:
I love that song.

Chris SD:
On the demo version that they put out... I can't remember when they put that out, the boxed set that they had. It's a nice song. If somebody played that for you and you could remove the part of your brain that knows that song and why it's famous, you would think that's a really nice song if somebody played it around campfire. But when you hear it with everything in the mix, the production seems to be the most important part. Suddenly it blossoms and it's this amazing song with all the production. That production would not be able to hang itself off the branches, like that's the fruit hanging off the branches of the tree, if it wasn't for the great song. So it is so important to have a great song and then the production enhances and amplifies it and sometimes it seems like it has a bigger effect on it but it's having that asset. Your songs are worth more than a lot of people's cars, potentially.

Chris SD:
But you have to use it. You have to know what to do with it. Just like the boat sitting in a marina, there's a ton of boats in here that don't go anywhere. People just come down and they hang out and they have their lunch on it, show their friends. But they never enjoy the boat for what it's meant for just like your songs. If you can take your songs and do a trip planned, learn how to sail your songs, learn how to do something with them, the world opens up for you. You're going to go to these amazing places with your songs and that is the biggest reason I got into music production was to take those right songs and make them viable in the world.And then licensing is that on like... I want to say on steroids but it's like way beyond that. So that's the next step essentially.

Michael Walker:
Dude, I love that analogy that you're using with the sailboat because I know your sailboat and the way that you travel and the freedom it gives you means so much to you. And it's just a huge part of who you are is that freedom. And it sounds like what you're saying is that the same freedom exists for musicians when you get really good at licensing your music is you have this freedom too... I mean, for a lot of artists, they're working a daytime job or they're spending a lot of their time focused on what they're not really passionate about, their music, because they don't really know how to pay the bills.

Michael Walker:
And so this is something that doesn't require necessarily like a lot of extra investment or time after you already have the songs that are just kind of sitting in the marina, not sailing. And that it can provide a lot of freedom. So that's awesome. So my next question is when you first start working with musicians, I know you work with a ton of different artists to help them do this, what have you noticed has been some of the most common challenges or the biggest problems that they run into when they first get started?

Chris SD:
Sure. So the biggest one I think is that a lot of musicians think that music licensing is run by these people who live in these ivory towers in nondescript... with no windows in the rooms in these nondescript places and there's no way to connect with them, there's no way to get your music out there. So they think that, "Well, I've got to get into a library or I've got to get a label deal or a publishing deal to find my way into TV and film." And that couldn't be further from the truth.

Chris SD:
And the interesting thing about that is because most musicians think that way, when you actually figure out how to do it, you're competing against a very small group of people when you're connecting and doing this because 95% of the people doing it, are doing it wrong. So yeah, lots of people are sending music to music supervisors, lots of people are trying to get into libraries, that the market is "saturated." But the people who are doing it right are the ones who get the syncs over and over and over again. So one of the big ones is how do you earn a music supervisor's trust. That's the very first step is that if you're going to get somebody to listen to your music and you're one of a thousand songs that came in that week, what's going to make them open your email, listen to your music, and essentially earn the trust?

Chris SD:
Because they don't trust you. So while I was figuring out musicians and indie, how they were going to get syncs with music supervisors, and slowly started to break down what are all of the things that have worked for me in the past? How was I able to get those syncs for people? I realized that it came down to five steps for me. You've heard this before, people say, "Oh, I used three steps, four steps, 10 steps," whatever. I wish I could take one away. It's five, it came down to five distinct things that you have to know. So the first one is targeting. Targeting means that you have to send music supervisors what they want when they're looking for it.

Chris SD:
If you use a shotgun approach and just send your music out there, they're not going to appreciate it because they're working on... say they're working on three different shows. Every day they're working for a specific song for a specific scene. So what happens when you send them... they're looking for like summer fun pop and you send them hip hop or country? You're not doing them any favors because they're basically like, "They're wasting my time." You don't happen to know what they're looking for, that's the problem. So you need to find a way to do that.

Chris SD:
And I teach people how to figure that out and how to know. And you need to also send it to them when they're looking for it. Not too early and not too late. So the first step is targeting. Once you have the targeting down, then the next things is writing. Writing means that you either write in a way that's going to work for sync but even better, you just know how to pick the songs that you know how are going to work in sync. So it doesn't literally mean you have to write for sync at all. In fact, most music supervisors will tell you that they prefer artists right from the heart. They prefer artists what comes out of them naturally because it's most authentic and it's better to find opportunities where your music fits to than grabbing opportunities and fitting your music to it.

Chris SD:
Now, there are some very successful people who write for Sync, don't get me wrong. I'm actually about to interview a pair called Money Cat later today, in fact, for my community. They're extremely successful, a couple from Ohio. He was doing classic hip hop, she wanted to be a Spice Girl, she jokes. And they got together and did this total weird amalgamation thing, ended up getting some syncs and now they have Disney calling them every second day saying, "We need this, we need that." All these people, like they're super, super successful in sync, they write for sync. So you can absolutely do it but if you're an artist and you have fans, just picking your songs in the writing stage is really what it's about. There are things that work in sync and things that do not work in sync as well. That's important to know.

Chris SD:
The second is production. You have to produce your songs, everything that gets into TV and film, is at a certain level. Your stuff has to sound as good as everything getting into TV and film, super important. So the production is very, very critical and there's certain things that work and certain things that don't. For example, certain vocal treatments don't work well in sync because they interfere with the dialogue. Horns could be problematic. There's all these other little things that you need to know about their production.

Chris SD:
And then the next one is vetting. And vetting is one I tried to leave out. I tried to like, "I want it to be a four step program. I can just do this, this, this, and then pitching." But vetting is like taking your friend to try on some clothes or someone you trust, whatever. And you think that your clothes look good on you, you're not sure. It's great to have that validation. Or you have a problem, that's a better example. You've got a problem and to you it seems huge, monumental. You ask someone else and they're like geniuses, you ask your friends and they tell you exactly what the problem is and how to fix it. And you're like, "How come they're so smart and I'm so stupid?"

Chris SD:
Well we're all in that... most of us, maybe you're not, but I am and most people I know are, we're all in this thing together. We're all in this weird thing. Another weird example is the guy-girl thing. If you're heterosexual you'll understand this part is like the guy is like, "I don't understand why the girl is acting that way." And the guy's girl friend, the friend who's a girl, is saying, "Duh. She's doing this, man, because she likes you or she doesn't like you." Guys, the same thing. Girls are like, "I don't understand why the guy is... " And a guy can immediately say, "Look, this guy's playing you. Or nah, he's acting this way because of this," because guys understand guys, girls understand girls.

Chris SD:
But it's this disconnect between the sexes and it's the same thing in music. When you write your songs, you know the back story to your music. You were there when you wrote it. You know who it's about. So when you hear your song back and when you write it, you fill in all the gaps in your head yourself. You're filling it in, the storyline. Other people don't know that so you, as a songwriter, or as composure or instrumentalist or whatever, you have to be great at translating. Part of your job is to translate what you're trying to say to the listener who's never heard it before. So that's so critical and the way to get that is vetting.

Chris SD:
Now I didn't invent vetting. I just borrowed it from like... movie studios do it all the time with focus groups, surveys, people send surveys out all the time to figure out if a product's going to work. People just go and reach out and ask the market, "What do you guys want?" I literally took that and shoehorned it into this. Works like a fricking charm. It's awesome. And then last but not least is pitching. Now, in order to pitch properly, you have to sound like these people sound, you have to know what they know. You have to use the same lingo, approach the music supervisors in the same way, you have to develop relationships with them in the same way over time. Now, somebody might say, "Well, Chris, then it's all about who you know." It is not about who you know. It's about following these five steps so you look like a pro because a new label that comes along and starts to pitch to the music supervisors, the supervisors don't know who they are, they just know how to pitch to them.

Chris SD:
They're just like, "Hey, we're a new label. Don't know you but we saw this opportunity." They know how to pitch, the music supervisor goes, "Okay, you're going to be on my good list." They're going to put a little check mark beside them and they'll be on the go to list. You want to be able to relate to them and talk to them that way. Another question might be like there's so many musicians and all trying to get their music into TV and film, well the example I like to use is like think about what are your odds of going to the moon?

Chris SD:
So there's seven and a half billion people on earth right now, right around there. And so you could say, "My odds are about one in seven and a half billion." And so if you're a farmer in Nebraska, then maybe you're right. That very well could be. You live on maybe an island somewhere in a village in French Polynesia, that could be about that, right? Well what if you're an astronaut that got trained by NASA? What are your odds now of going to the moon? Way different. So that's what it's all about. It's about competing with the lower group of people and being at the top so that they trust you. It's a whole different scenario up there and that's why you see indie musicians getting successful over and over and over again. It's not magic.

Chris SD:
Either they're students of mine who follow this or they're doing some version of what I just described to you. But that is how it happens. And so anyway, that's the nutshell, Mike, about sort of like earning the trust of music supervisors and getting your music into TV and film in a rudimentary way within a short interview here.

Jared:
Hey, it's Jared here. Co producer of The Modern Musician Podcast. Thanks once again for tuning in to this episode. If you're listening to this right when it comes out, we have something really exciting to announce. We've just launched Music Mentor. If you're looking for mentorship and advice from industry experts, then Music Mentor is going to be so valuable for you. It's a community, a community of mentors, driven musicians, and all the tools and resources you need to take your career to the next level. So take advantage of this. Go to the link in the show notes and see what it's all about. Now back to the podcast.

Michael Walker:
So just to kind of recap, it sounds like what you're saying... and this makes a lot of sense just in terms of the way that relationships work in general and the way that we connect with other people. It sounds like the people that they've built these mechanisms, they've built these triggers where, as humans, we do a lot of things subconsciously and we develop trust subconsciously over time and so after a certain point it becomes easier to kind of to lean back and just kind of go with the flow. And so a lot of these music supervisors, going with the flow means having these conversations that they've had over and over again with these different experts that kind of provide the music to them. And so if you learn how they like to be spoken to and you kind of slip in, you can be professional, then you can trigger the exact same kind of thing.

Michael Walker:
So it's just subconsciously they understand what you're saying and they go with you. It kind of reminds me of this analogy of the way that our brains work in terms of they're like synapses, right? What you just described was... Sorry, I'm going to kind of geek out here for a little bit because I think this is interesting. But it's kind of like synapses in your brain, how they trigger at a certain point. So it's like the electrical... it's kind of like lightening in a sense. And the way that our brains work is that if we think the same thoughts over and over again, it's sort of like going down a hill of going sledding and the more you go down the hill, the more it drives this groove in the path.

Michael Walker:
So you kind of keep going down and if you think the same thoughts, you can really dig yourself into these grooves. And so it sounds like what you're saying in part is with that analogy, that it's kind of like these music supervisors, they have these grooves that they've created. And so, in order to most effectively deliver your songs to them, it's good to figure out where are those grooves, are they created so you can kind of slide down and connect with them best.

Chris SD:
Yeah, that's a great analogy in fact. Yeah. I mean, I think we're all very... well there's this thing, just to geek out a little further, we have this thing within us called automation in our biology. So that once your body gets used to doing something repetitively, you don't have to actually think about it, you can do it. That's how we do these absent minded things, right? Where we set something down, when we forget where we put it, it's because we're in automation mode, we weren't present when we were doing that. And that's for good reason because you can multitask, you can be thinking about something else like rubbing the belly and patting the head type of thing, your body can automate certain things and behaviors and so on.

Chris SD:
So you're right and we do that for efficiency. So it's efficient. Your body chooses the most efficient way to get through life and part of that's automation. The same with music supervisors. They're getting hit and hit and hit with indie musicians and so on. So at some point, you have to figure out what those grooves are, what those habits are, and as long as you fit into that area and they mark you down on their go to list and they're funneling your emails in their junk folder, then you're absolutely right. So that is a huge part of it. The most important part though, ultimately, is it's like being politely persistent or a squeaky wheel but one that isn't squeaky all the time. And there's a delicate balance with that and we all inherently know that.

Chris SD:
It's not like going to job interview after job interview after job interview. It should never feel like that, it should never feel like as impersonal as that. It's not there's this mathematical structure or that when I show people how to do this it's not like, "Do it this way, this way, this way, this way." I also try to bring out people's personalities in how you approach certain things. So the things that have happened to you in life, a lot of it comes down to how you, yourself, did it and how people appreciated you for you.

Chris SD:
I don't know if that makes sense but it's like not what you're saying all the time, it's how you're saying what you're saying. I sort of look at it as like some musicians can write love songs that have simple words in them. You can say the three words we all know so well, I love you. We say it to our parents and siblings and children and significant others. We say those three words over and over again. But we don't always say them, of course. They're such important words. Now it's not about what you're saying at that point. Sure, you can say, "I love you," to somebody and it means something completely different than, "I love you," to someone else. And so it's how you say what you say.

Chris SD:
And that's such a big part of connecting with music supervisors is it's who you are, what your personality is and how that shines through in how you deal with them. Now, it's no different than anything else in life. The only difference is you're generally starting it out in emails. And the first sync is the hardest but once you start getting in there it gets easier and easier and easier. But always think about how you're saying what you're saying and not specifically what you're saying. Of course there's very important things that you have to say and I show people through email templates and when to follow up and all the stuff that's really important, what to do put in the email, what not to put in. But it's how you say it individually that's going to get you the gig in terms of getting it opened and listened to.

Chris SD:
And the last thing on that is a lot of people that don't hear back, music supervisors don't typically ever respond to give feedback to anything. They're way too busy. It's the norm not to hear back. So a lot of people and students I've had later found out through the music supervisor was like, "Oh yeah, we almost used these four of your songs separately last year. They were up actually at the actual spotting session when we were in there with the director and the producer and we were trying your music out. And that one didn't make the cut that time and that one didn't make the cut that time." But just to have your music in a spotting session is amazing. It means you're that close to getting placed and it's just a matter of time.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. So it sounds like what you're saying is that when it comes to pitching your music to supervisors, it also probably comes into play a lot when it comes to riding your bike when it comes to writing your music because you talked about how music supervisors, usually they prefer to have a song that speaks from the heart that feels authentic, that's real. And what you're talking about is so important in terms of your music as a whole and the way that you write songs, it expresses who you are. And it's more important that it's honest and that it's real. And that comes through in your communication as well. There are things that are good rules of thumbs and like, "Don't say this. Don't say this." And you provide those, you kind of give people a template.

Michael Walker:
But ultimately, things will get really, really boring if everyone said the exact same thing at the exact same time. It wouldn't work because it would just come across like a cookie cutter type of thing. And so ultimately it's good to have guidelines, it's good to have mentorship show you what to say and what not to say. But ultimately it also comes across with how you say it and that you're being congruent and that you're being authentic with yourself.

Chris SD:
Yep. You nailed it.

Michael Walker:
Let's wrap things up here pretty soon because this is awesome and we're coming to the end of the interview. So specifically when you talked about that step for vetting, what exactly does that mean and how would you recommend that someone goes about getting their songs vetted?

Chris SD:
So essentially vetting means, as I was describing earlier, it's really about getting other people's opinions on your music. So you need to have a little bit of a thick skin with that. And to figure out how that's going to work. But essentially what it comes down to is that when you're vetting your music, you're not asking people if they like your song. That's not the point. You're trying to find out where your music fits like what opportunities it's going to be good for. So you're going to want to find out who you sound like, for example. That's a great question. "Who do I remind you of?" In terms of production, there's a number of questions, important questions that I teach people to get a dataset to figure something out about their music. And another one would be like production.

Chris SD:
Focusing on what is it about the song that stands out most to you? Because some productions like a lot of percussion. Some productions focus on vocals, some productions focus on different elements. So there's specific questions that you're going to ask your listening group, you're going to set up your own listening group and ask them those particular questions and you're going to get these things that sound amazing.

Chris SD:
Just for fun I actually did it one time in one of my classes. I just threw in one of my songs and I got all of this feedback from people who nailed one particular thing about my song that I had never even considered. And it was huge. It was even if you feel a little bit offended by it because artistic sensibility, it's medicine, man, it's like you just get it and you fix it. If you want to. Now you never take the outlier opinions. You have to look for the pattern within your group. So your group has to be big enough where you can do that. So vetting is extremely powerful to hone the tip of your arrow to hit the bullseye in sync.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. So it sounds like what you're saying is with vetting, it's a lot about the group that you bring together and having a big enough group that you're not looking at necessarily the outliers in the feedback that you're getting, but you're looking at what are the patterns, what are the things that are coming up multiple times in terms of what are some artists that you remind them of and what are different production elements? And specifically it sounds like you have a framework of different questions that work really well to ask people.

Chris SD:
Totally because the questions lead you down to what the thing that you need to know is. And the thing about putting your group together, you don't want to have your mom or your significant other who loves everything that you do. You need people who are going to give you honest opinions. So that's very important that you have your group not just full of musicians but also listeners and a varied group of people. So that's an important element.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. Dude, I've been waiting to use this analogy for a while. It's been floating in the back of my brain. But I feel like one analogy that kind of describe the process of what you're talking about about sharpening the edge and honing it, is also how you can thinking about niching down when it comes to businesses, your brand, and getting that fine edge that helps you cut through is that it really is taking that arrow and just sharpening it and sharpening it. Because when you pull it back and you let go, it's got to pierce through this pretty thick skin of this threshold of being able to cut through people's attention because right now there's so many things vying for our attention that not a lot cuts through. So it sounds like what you're saying is part of that ability to vet is about really refining and figuring out what's the tip point that's going to allow you to pull back and cut through and to actually reach those music supervisors.

Chris SD:
Hey man, once again, couldn't have said it better.

Michael Walker:
I've wanted to use that analogy for a while and now we just finally had an opportunity.

Chris SD:
You have a little book there.

Michael Walker:
By the way, hope you guys buy my new book. The Sharp End of the Point: Cutting Through the Noise in Today's Society. Dude, so you're awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here today, this has been kick ass, way better than last time. So right now, if someone wanted to learn more and go a little bit more in depth in terms of those five steps, I know you have some deeper like training that sometimes you offer like a workshop, where can someone go to learn more from you?

Chris SD:
Sure. So basically we have a workshop that we put out. It's totally free and it's essentially a place that it's really what I think is the second best training in music licensing ever. And I say second best because our course that's not open right now is the best. But this thing is a full four video workshop which walks through all the five steps in a lot more detail than it was able to do that here. And just wanted to open that up for your community because what you guys are doing is amazing. I think it is like the best thing in the music industry online, considering all the people that you've got, all the information that people are getting, it's incredible.

Chris SD:
So just to give a gift and it's, again, completely free. It doesn't cost a cent. If you don't want to do it, you can still sign up on our mailing list and get free blogs and stuff. But yeah, I wanted to offer that to you guys to basically send people there if they really want to dive deeper into musical licensing.

Michael Walker:
Amazing. Dude, well thank you so much for doing that. And yeah, man, thank you so much for taking the time to be here and appreciate you sharing your advice and do you have any closing words?

Chris SD:
No, I don't, Mike. Just again, want to remind people about the astronaut example. And I've talked to so many people who will say, "Oh, music licensing is so hard. It's impossible. It's a lottery. It's a game of chance, blah, blah, blah." It's like you go to Sync Songwriter on our website and go under testimonials. It's not just a bunch of people saying, "We love your course." There's actual real results. There's a bunch of videos of real students getting real sync results over and over and over again. So it works and you can do this. You can absolutely do this. Sync is not that difficult. Work smarter and not harder.

Michael Walker:
Amazing. Dude, well thank you. And I feel like you're one of the epitomes of this overall business principle of giving value first and sharing your knowledge. That free workshop literally dives so deep into how to do this that someone could literally just go and get started with this. So I appreciate you being here and being so generous and kind of sharing the biggest insights that you've had and sharing that gift and, yeah dude, you're awesome. And looking forward to talking again soon.

Chris SD:
Thanks a lot, Mike. Really enjoyed this. So, as always, thank you.

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Micheal here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today and if you want to support the podcast then there's a few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe, then that'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends or on your social media, tag us. That really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take their music careers to the next level. The time to be a modern musician is now and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.