Ariel Hyatt: Everybody who's in the music business in any form or fashion, we all got into the music business because we want to be in touch with musicians. You're the one with the power, not us.

Michael Walker: It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology, and where anyone with a computer can really start on music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician, and it's only getting better. If you have high quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself, so that you can reach the right people, and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution of today's music industry, and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

Michael Walker: All right, so I'm here with Ariel Hyatt. She's the founder of a company called Cyber PR, author of four best-selling books on social media, PR and publicity, crowd funding for musicians. And so today, we're going to focus on PR and publicity, and specifically for, how can you do this DIY? How can you save yourself thousands of dollars by figuring out how to pitch yourself, and how to share your story in a way that's really compelling? So, Ariel, thanks for taking the time to be here today.

Ariel Hyatt: Thanks for having me. I'm psyched.

Michael Walker: Awe yeah. So yeah, I'd love to start off by just getting to know your story a little bit, and how you got started, how you became a best-selling author, and how you discovered your expertise.

Ariel Hyatt: So, I always was passionate about music. My first job out of college was working at an independent record label. From there, I went to work for an independent concert promoter, but I got my chaps learning how to do publicity, and marketing, and those domains. And I got fired from my job at the concert promotions company, and this was 24 years ago. And I was living in Boulder, Colorado at the time, which is a very small market. There weren't exactly a lot of opportunities. So, I launched in and became and entrepreneur, and started as a traditional PR firm.

Ariel Hyatt: And over the 10 years or so that I was a totally traditional publicist, the world started obviously changing. Social media started happening, sharing files digitally started happening, all of that stuff. And I realized that traditional PR, meaning newspapers, magazines, television, radio, faxing press releases, calling journalists, all of that was going to not be a very forward way of thinking. So early in the game, I got really interested in digital, and I realized that there were so many artists out there that didn't understand how to navigate this brave new world. And I started writing articles to help them, which originally were published in some newspapers, and then I started a website, and started publishing the articles.

Ariel Hyatt: And then, after the thousandth phone call of lost artists asking me the very basics about publicity, marketing, social media, I wrote it all down and self published my first book in 2007. And I love writing. I love writing, and I've since published three other books, and tons of blogs, and it's my outlet is writing. And I feel a very big responsibility to give back to our artist community, which is why I love writing books. And I love traveling, so when you write a book, you get invited to speak at conferences. So, that was a very amazing benefit to that. And so, here we are, all these years later.

Michael Walker: That's awesome. Man, I would love to write a book. And you've got four, a best-selling author. That's awesome. So, what would you say, what are the biggest reasons that they should learn what we're about to teach them in terms of PR and publicity, why is it important?

Ariel Hyatt: It's important because to hire a good publicist costs a lot of money. I'm talking about when you feel like it's time to really go for Billboard, Rolling Stone, NPR, large outlets where you're probably not going to get very far without someone that already has a solid contact base. But to hire someone to put you through SubmitHub, which we'll talk about in a minute, and to hire someone to get you on very small to medium blogs when you're just starting out is not necessary in this day and age.

Ariel Hyatt: And so, I talk to a lot of artists who have been sold a fake Bill of Goods from the PR firm where they thought, "Oh, I'm going to get in Rolling Stone," or, "I'm going to get on Pitchfork," or, "I'm going to get on Drown [inaudible 00:04:59], Stereogum, BrooklynVegan," these huge outlets. Which probably, if you're just building your foundation, and you're a newer artist, unless you already have a large following, or you're signed to a label that has some curb appeal, or you're being managed by someone, there's a story. You're not going to get into those massive publications on your first go around.

Ariel Hyatt: So, you can save a ton of money by putting in a little bit of elbow grease and spinning your own publicity wheels. And I love teaching this, because I think especially now, with COVID-19 wiping out a lot of, not that artists ever had a giant amount of disposable income, most of the ones I know. I just think publicity is probably not the best use of spending what little budgets you might have going forward.

Michael Walker: Gotcha. So, it sounds like what you're saying is that when it comes to publicity and PR, there are some really big publications where having an in, having some connections can go a long way. But they're also for people who are really established, and are ready for that level. Or maybe, if they have a crazy story or something, then maybe that could land. But what you see is that there's also some musicians that may be getting taken advantage of, or maybe they're just not making the wisest investment with their limited budget when there are some tools for getting started, like ... And I know we're going to dig into these, but tools like SubmitHub, and some other tools that they can get started with. And so, there's a big opportunity to save thousands of dollars, so to get a lot of the benefit of getting on these publications.

Ariel Hyatt: Totally, that's it.

Michael Walker: Cool. So yeah, what are some of the biggest challenges that you see musicians struggling with when it comes to getting on these publications in the first place?

Ariel Hyatt: So, the first thing that you have to do is understand that really good publicity is all about planning. And the plan that I see most musicians make is they get a big giant list from someone or somewhere, and they copy and paste their bio and a link to their music, and they blast that out to hundreds of people. That's not a plan. That is a sure fire way of, A, pissing off journalists that might have been interested in you. B, that throw the spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks method is a very antiquated approach to PR, this very general blasting, which I do not recommend. And I see that artists do that all the time. And then the other thing I see happening is, and of course, you should have a dream. If you want to be on Pitchfork, if you want to have your sights set on a larger publication, I am not here to say, "Don't try for that," but you definitely want to start somewhere. And I always say, "Start smaller."

Ariel Hyatt: So, the number one mistake that all artists make is this blasting, or this going way too big. You're probably not going to just cold call someone at Rolling Stone or Pitchfork. You're going to need more of a warm introduction. That's just the way it is, and that's okay. However, the smart way to do it is, step one, plan. Plan, and planning also means researching. That's another mistake that I see artists doing, is they don't really read music blogs. They don't really understand what's out there. They don't get the lay of the land. And then, they pitch to the wrong outlets, and you're going to get a lot of the result if you're firing at the wrong target. That's just the way it is.

Michael Walker: Gotcha. So, it sounds like there's two really big mistakes that musicians make a lot of times starting out. And being on the receiving end of this, I've seen this a lot too, the blast or the promotion that's just totally general, and it just gives you a little yucky feeling in your stomach. You're like, "Really? Come on." So, that's not really effective, but sometimes that's what people do starting out. But then also, yeah, this throw spaghetti at a wall and hope something sticks thing, where it just really isn't very focused or refined, and therefore, it doesn't really get results. So, you mentioned that the way to ... a couple things that are really important to get around that are researching and planning. So, what does that process look like?

Ariel Hyatt: So, in the planning side, which is the preparing for publicity, you first have to understand that no matter who you're pitching to, whether you're using a system like a Musicsubmit, or SubmitHub, or there is some other places where you can go to send your music through. Just having a giant long bio is not going to cut it. First of all, you need to understand what a pitch is, how to write a good pitch, how to be appealing in four or five short sentences that really capture who you are, and explain what the music is like.

Ariel Hyatt: And going in and listing every single person who produced, and mixed, and mastered, and all the band members, and how you met, and going on and on, that is not going to make a writer excited. So, you have to really understand the art of writing a pitch. You have to prepare something, and you have to also make sure that you've got attractive photos. You've got to have good looking cover art. You want your whole package to look really good. Of course, the music has to sound amazing, be well mixed, well mastered, and presented on SoundCloud, because that is the place where most music blogs are going to embed your music. Obviously, if you're going for a Spotify or an Apple Music playlist, you have to have your music up on Spotify and Apple. But so, you've got to prepare a very concise pitch, and have a really good looking media kit. So, that's the preparation part.

Ariel Hyatt: Then, the second part is, like you said, like we've been saying, you want to research your targets. And you want to make sure that ... Make some targets. Make some small targets, like, "Okay, these are really smaller blogs." And then some medium, and make some stretch goals as well. And I would say, if you could create a list of 20 to 30 outlets, that's a good number. Don't worry about the thousands and thousands. Make a targeted list. And then, you want to make sure that you look at each one of those outlets. Is it a guy? Is it a girl? Who is the writer? What do they write about? What do they like? Because if they are not writing about the type of music that you make, and you go and pitch them, it's not going to go well. So, understand who you're then talking to.

Ariel Hyatt: And you want to cater each of those 20 to 30 pitches very, very carefully and individually. You would just vomit out a generic, "To whom it may concern," or "Dear sir," pitch. It has to be, "Hi, Mary. Hey, Matt. Hey, Alex. Hey," whatever the name of the writer is. And then, you want to say the reason why you're reaching out to them, "I live in the town that you cover," or the city that you cover. "I make the kind of music that I think you appreciate, because you already wrote about X band, and I sound like them." That could be an approach. Or, "I saw that you interviewed so-and-so. We just were on the road with that band." You have to get an in, so that you can appeal to each one of those journalists, writers, bloggers, podcasters, playlisters, whoever it is. And then from there, you're going to send out your pitch.

Michael Walker: Beautiful, okay. So, it sounds like the two steps that went into that process were, one, preparing the resources, preparing the assets, so having really good looking photos, and you're just making sure it looks polished and clean. And obviously, the music, you want it to be good, and to have it on SoundCloud really easily, digestible by them. One thing that I do want dig into a little bit deeper, because it's probably ... Well, it's something that's really, really important, but might be kind of tricky to hone in on. But you mentioned the refining the bio, so it's not just a huge, long bio about your dog, and about your band mates, or a really long ... but it's very short, and sweet, and to the point, and probably something that reaches out, and it's like, "Oh, that's unique," or it has an interesting hook or something to it. What tips would you have for artists who are trying to figure out what is that short bio, or how can they pitch themselves, or what sets them apart? How do they present that?

Ariel Hyatt: It's very important to talk about feelings. What type of emotion and feeling does your music actually evoke? All music is melodic, right? All music is unique. All music has specific things that are very general. I could write many, many sentences, like, "Storing harmonies, four part," that kind of thing that literally applies to any music. So, when you're thinking about what is that little nugget going to be, how do you want people to feel? Are you going to get up and dance when you hear this music? Are you going to go out for a run, because it's high energy and it's made for high impact? Are you going to cry, because it's moving and sad? Are you going to ... You want the listener, or the reader in this point, to understand the feeling. That is one very powerful way of crafting a pitch.

Ariel Hyatt: Another way is, you have to give context. And I see a lot of artists that feel very fearful about this. They don't want to compare themselves to any other artist, but you probably do not create music that sounds nothing like anything at all in the whole world. You probably sound like someone. So, it's very also important to put in your pitch, "This suits you if you like the music of, fill in the blank, you most probably would like to hear us."

Ariel Hyatt: And I wouldn't make that type of target a giant household name. Don't say, "If you like The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, The Rolling Stones," I mean, these are artists that, yeah, maybe you sound like them ... Springsteen. Stay away from Bob Dylan for God's sake. You know what I mean? Try to come up with something that's maybe a little more niche, because these artists that have millions, and millions, and millions ... I mean, unless you really do sound like Elton John, I would not say that. I would try to find something that's a little bit more refined as a reference or a touch point. So then, you definitely want ... That's something you could put in your pitch is, "If you enjoy the music of The Chris Robinson Brotherhood, you will love us," or, "If you enjoy the music of," et cetera. So, you want to do that.

Ariel Hyatt: Then, another approach you might also want to take is explaining what the reader, or the reader of the pitch is going to hear. Is it jangly? Is it rootsy? Is it poppy in an effervescent sense? But do not just put a bunch of generic genres. That's another way that's not going to get an evoked feeling. So, these are bits that you could put into your pitch.

Ariel Hyatt: Do you have a phenomenal story? I worked with an artist a couple of years ago who almost died of cancer. And while he was in cancer treatment, he was lying in the hospital with ... doing his chemo, and he was thinking, "The one thing I didn't do in my life was I didn't record music, and I wish I had." So, that was very much a huge part of his pitch and his story. And we wrote that into the pitch, because it was really relevant, and interesting, and his music was very uplifting, and had a sense of feeling grateful to be alive in it. So, the reason why he created the music matched the music. So, that could be another approach that you could take. How did this music come about?

Ariel Hyatt: Telling a story like, "I got into the studio with a producer, and we sat around, and we wrote," that's not telling an interesting story. So, you want to come up with, was there inspiration behind this? Is this music created out of a painful or happy. We're working with an artist right now named Moose. Every song that he writes is a love letter to his wife. He writes love songs, and that totally suits his style, and that's part of it. So on Valentine's Day, he can do a really big push around his music, because it's all written for his beloved. So, there's all different angles that you can take, but you want to have something that's going to make the writer click on the music that is not generic, and is not boring, and is not too vanilla.

Michael Walker: That's awesome. Yeah, that's really fascinating to hear. I always know when I'm talking with someone who's a master at what they're talking about, because they just exude ... There's just gold nuggets throughout all of it. So, there's a few different angles you could take with it, but one thing that's really important to do is to really hone in and make tangible ... To help evoke the emotion of what the music is about is always a good thing. To be able to ... Because essentially what we're doing is, we're trying to communicate what the music is through the form of words, and just through reading it. So, to be able to evoke that, a lot of it comes down to the feeling that's evoked, like, "What do you feel like doing? What kind of impact does this have?" It makes you get up and dance, or it makes you cry, actual describing physical events that could happen as a result of the music. And then also, you mentioned the genres, context. I get that a lot, too, a large issue. It's like ...

Ariel Hyatt: It's folky, jazzy, rocky, poppy. What? I don't know what that is. That's everything. You can not do that. But if you're very, very specific, then it's totally fine. And there's so many sub-genres of music right now. Whenever I go to teach at universities, one of my favorite exercises is asking the class, "Name a genre." And the things that come out of their mouths, I'm like, "What the hell? I've never even heard of that genre." It's amazing. So, if you can fit into a very specific ... You wouldn't just say, "Alternative rock." What does that mean? That's everything, right? But if you can come up with something that's very specific, that's very helpful to the reader.

Michael Walker: Awesome. Yeah, so digging into the genre, niching down a bit, and just making it more understandable, making it more refined. And also, if you have a really heartwarming story, if you having something, like a reason behind the music, or really a message to share with it, that could be something really powerful to include with it. So, let's say that someone ... They've put in the effort, put in the work. They really have honed in what is it that ... how do they describe their sound? And I'm sure this is an iterative process, and that probably it improves over time. They'll adapt, and they'll tweak things.

Michael Walker: But then, you mentioned the second step is really finding the right people who are going to want to ... who are going to be interested. They're going to click on it, and they're going to listen to it, and it's going to be a good fit for their publication. Making a list of 20 or 30 of those people, and maybe small ones, medium ones, big ones, reaching out to them, and really first, trying to build a relationship with them, and sharing why you think you might be a good fit for them, but not doing it in a super overly promotional way, or being super generic, and clearly just a mass message, but in a personalized message for them specifically.

Ariel Hyatt: That's it. That's it.

Michael Walker: Awesome, cool. So, what other challenges, what other obstacles do you find getting in the way of musicians doing this successfully?

Ariel Hyatt: Not following up. So, if you're using a portal like SubmitHub.com, that's a portal. For those of you that don't know it, you pay, you buy tokens, and there's a huge list of music blogs, and playlisters, and even some record labels. And you upload your music, and then you pay about a dollar for a premium submission. And it's all broken down by genre. So obviously, do not submit to the heavy metal site if you make folk music. That is something that every single writer complains to me about. They're like, "I only write about hip hop. Why are these country singers hitting me up?" So again, it's understanding who you're sending to.

Ariel Hyatt: So, the thing that's amazing about SubmitHub is for $50, you can get 50 pitches out, and they will only be able to take the 50 cents of your dollar if they provide feedback. So, the feedback is either going to be, "This wasn't for me," and they might give a reason, like, "I just didn't dig your vocal," or, "I wasn't really feeling the bridge," whatever. Or, it gets placed. So, that is a great way of getting your feet wet, and actually getting some feedback. Although, I wouldn't take the feedback with too much weight. It could be an intern just sitting, going through that inbox. Don't get upset if you get weird feedback, which we often do when we send our clients through. So, that would be one way of getting that pitch out. And you don't need to follow up on SubmitHub, because you paid for the submission.

Ariel Hyatt: However, if you are pitching a regular journalist, who has not been on SubmitHub, and there's no official way of submitting the music to them, either paid or free, following up is crucial. And especially if you have a show coming up, and you're trying to get a calendar listing, or get some notice out about something that you're doing. People that work at dailies, weeklies, and monthlies newspaper magazine, they are overwhelmed. They're always under deadline. You want to give them plenty of lead time, and you want to follow up, because they could have not seen it the first time it came through. Or, they could have seen it on their phone in the middle of the night, while they were scrolling, and then, they forgot to go capture it on their desktop at work, or whatever. So, you definitely want to follow up those pitches. Do not just send it once and be like, "Oh, God. I didn't get any PR," because you probably won't get it the first time.

Ariel Hyatt: And so, here at Cyber PR, when we run PR campaigns, we have a Three Strikes and You're Out policy. So, we actually follow up with each and every writer three separate times. And then after the third time, if they haven't responded to us, it becomes obnoxious to be like, "Hey, did you get it?" So, we leave it alone. Another thing that we do is we track to see if the email is actually getting opened. And if we notice after two sends there's no open, they didn't even receive it, we might try an alternative way of pitching, maybe it's sending a Tweet, a Facebook, or an Instagram DM is ... You can do it, but again, you have to do it really politely. You have to put the person's first name. You don't want to be like, "Hey, check me out." You want to be very, again, careful with your pitch. So, giant mistake is not following up, and I've seen it so many times. You've got to persevere, if you're going to do PR. It's relationship building. And so, you wouldn't just go on one date and get married, right? You've got to keep going back to build that relationship. That's key.

Michael Walker: What's up guys? So, quick intermission from the podcast, so I could tell you about an awesome free gift that I have for you. I wanted to share something that's not normally available to the public. They're normally reserved for our $5,000 clients that we work for personally. This is a presentation called Six Steps to Explode Your Fan Base and Make a Profit With Your Music Online. And specifically, we're going to walk through how to build a paid traffic, an automated funnel. It's going to allow you to grow your fan base online. And the system is designed to get you tier first $5,000 a month with your music. We've invested over $130,000 in the past year to test out different traffic sources, and different offers, and really say what's working best right now for musicians. And so, I think it's going to be hugely valuable for you. And so, if that's something you're interested in, in the description, there should be a little link that you can click on to go get that.

Michael Walker: And the other thing I wanted to mention is, if you want to do us a huge favor, one thing that really makes a big difference early on when you're creating a new podcast is if people click Subscribe. Then, it basically lets the algorithm know that this is something that's new, and noteworthy, and that people actually want to hear. And so, that'll help us reach a lot more people. So, if you're getting value from this, and you get value from the free trainings, then if you want to do us a favor, I'd really appreciate you clicking the Subscribe button. All right, let's get back to the podcast.

Michael Walker: Cool, so I've heard of SubmitHub before. I've never actually used it myself, but I know it's a really amazing tool. So, that's really cool to hear how that works. And so, SubmitHub, basically you can join it. You pay $1 per submission. That's probably great for everyone, because then it's like, for the people who are receiving all the submissions, it's a little more vetting. They know that it's not just someone who's clicking spam, and just sending the general message out to everyone. It's based on genre. So, that can be a good way. And it sounds also like it's a good way to get feedback, which you've got to take with a grain of salt sometimes. You might get some weird feedback, but when you're starting out, sometimes that feedback can be so, so valuable to be able to figure out how to adapt. So, that's one tool that you would recommend is going on there. And then-

Ariel Hyatt: I also love Musicsubmit, which is ... They actually came way before SubmitHub, but Musicsubmit, it doesn't go by tokens. You have to buy packages, and they'll submit you to 100, or 200, or 50, or whatever. That's another really great resource. It works the same way. They send your music out on your behalf, but again, you always in all cases still need to write an attractive pitch, and there will be a cut off. So, you have to be careful with how many characters the pitch is. But yeah, SubmitHub and Musicsubmit, I think are two really good places to get started.

Michael Walker: Cool. So, Musicsubmit and SubmitHub are two really great places to get started. You also mentioned, and I love the Three Strikes and You're Out follow up policy, too. That actually helps me thinking about ... Because we have some different campaigns that we do where we reach out to different people. And so yeah, the Three Strikes and You're Out is a cool way of thinking about it. But it sounds like, of course, when you're reaching out to those people, you really want to research. You want to make sure that you're a good fit. You want to make it more personalized. And one thing that I was curious about was, how do you follow up those three times? What exactly do you say in those emails without, like you mentioned, over three times would maybe start to feel a little bit obnoxious. But even one, two, or three, for me, I would feel a little bit weird. I mean, the first time maybe, then two and three, how exactly do you follow up with those people in a way that gets responses?

Ariel Hyatt: Yeah, well first of all, no matter how frustrated and annoyed you are, definitely don't be like, "Here I am, following up again." That will piss them off, so don't do that. But you might say it more politely, like, "Hey, last week, or two weeks ago, I sent you my new music that I'm really, really excited about, and I would so love to hear back from you, because I really love your writing, or I live in the same town as you, and I've got a show coming," whatever you want to say why you're following up. And you could say, "I was really hoping that I would at least get a response." You can be ... Make them feel like you actually care about them. I think that's another giant mistake that artists make. They just expect. No one is giving you anything. You have to work for it, especially with relationships.

Ariel Hyatt: So, when you go for a second or third follow up, think, how does it feel if you miss an email in your inbox? How did those people get through to you? They probably didn't say something rude or obnoxious. They probably said, "Hey, I'm just checking in again. I've sent you an email last week," or whatever, "And I'm following up." And it's totally okay to do that. So, I would say that coming up with multiple reasons of saying why you're following up could be a very effective way of getting someone to actually pay attention.

Michael Walker: Awesome. So, the most important thing when you're following up is, one, definitely be polite. Don't be rude or obnoxious. But one thing that you mentioned, there's this shift of instead of just me, me, me, and thinking about taking and getting benefit, flipping it on its head and thinking about, "How can I ..." thinking about them, and how are they seeing it? And how can I make this as valuable as possible? How can I provide value to them? And when you're reaching out to them, and you're thinking about how can I provide value to them? The right people, they want you to reach out to them. They want to connect with you, if you're a good fit for their publication. And so-

Ariel Hyatt: Yeah, I mean, I think something that artists forget all the time, all the time, is everybody whose in the music business in any form or fashion, we all got into the music business, because we want to be in touch with musicians. You're the one with the power, not us. And I think that we get really frustrated, and upset, and overwhelmed, and, "That person has something magical." No they don't. You made the music. They are nothing without you. Yes, they might be really connected, or they're a good manager, or they're a booking agent, or they own a club, or whatever the thing is that you want from them. They don't own a club if there's no one performing on the stage. So, I think this is a way of framing it for yourself where you can really give yourself some power in that context. And I see artists all the time forgetting that, because they've been shot down so many times, and because it's so hard to even get one toe up on the proverbial ladder.

Ariel Hyatt: But really, I don't have a job if the music sucks. I don't have a job if the artist isn't good. I don't have a job if you don't want to work with me. You pay me. And so, in many cases, whether it's service based, you are also PS, paying any venue, any manager, any record label. You are generating the income for them. So, I think that's an empowering way to look at this when it can feel very disempowering when you really, really want something. And the same goes for PR. And if there is something you can do to offer a little nugget, or something helpful to the writer, amazing.

Ariel Hyatt: I think of some of the best relationships that I have in the business, John Taglieri is a musician. I've known him for 20 years, maybe more. He cold called me one day, and was like, "Hey, my name is John. I'm a broke musician. I totally can't afford to work with you, but I will one day. Can we meet?" And I was like, "No, that's weird." But then he called back a month later and he was like, "It's John again." And this time he said ... He was living in New Jersey. I was living in Manhattan. He was like, "I have been playing a ton of gigs in New Jersey, and I've got this really good list of local outlets where if you ever have artists that are playing in New Jersey, I've got newspapers, and magazines, and TV, and radio, and names, and numbers. Can I give it to you?" And I was like, "That's very nice." I said, "Yes." And then, he called me a month later and said, "I'm going to be in the city. Can we meet for a drink? And the answer was, "Yes." So, and we became very, very good friends. He did end up hiring me. I ended up hiring him to work with me, and we've had a relationship forever.

Ariel Hyatt: So, if there is something that you can offer someone, it's amazing. It's hard to figure, "What can I offer a music blogger?" But maybe you're a great writer, and you want to review music, maybe that's an option? I don't know, but if you can come up with, "How do I help?" not, "I deserve something," I think you're right, that is the best possible way to frame how you're going to get your success in this crazy business.

Michael Walker: I love that story. That was so perfectly articulated, the difference between his approach with reaching out to you, being ... thinking of you first, and thinking about how they can provide value, and how he got contact. And I mean, it's probably a useful exercise. I mean, just us talking about it right now probably helps, but them just sitting down and thinking about, "How can I benefit them? How am I helping them by reaching out?" And if it's the right blogger, who your music is a good fit for, then literally, you're providing a service, because it is the right son. They're going to enjoy it.

Michael Walker: And what I love about you, and what we're talking about right now, and what you offer is that I think you're totally right that for a long time, artists have gotten the short end of the stick in terms of the music business. We've been misrepresented, or we've been taken advantage of by people who run the business side of things, and have this idea of, "Oh, you don't need to know about this business stuff. You're a musician. You're just an artist. It's not important. You don't even care about this. We'll take care of the money." The most successful musicians in the world are also really smart marketers as well, and they're really ... they're great at business things.

Ariel Hyatt: They are now.

Michael Walker: And so, it is a really valuable skill, right?

Ariel Hyatt: Yeah.

Michael Walker: And so, I think what you're teaching right now, with taking control of your own career, and being able to reach out to somebody's blog is part of this movement that's happening right now with musicians being able to use some of these tools, to be able to directly connect with their audiences in a way that was really difficult in the past. You needed a record label or infrastructure to do it. And now, both with the PR, and publicity, and with the crowd funding, you're really helping musicians to take the power back, and to be able to make a bigger impact because of it.

Ariel Hyatt: Thanks, and yeah, that's for sure. And I think that especially when it comes to crowd funding, that's a whole other conversation. But there is again, that fear, or that thinking of, "Oh, I don't want to ask for $50, or $100," or whatever it is, even if you pitch on $3 a month. You are offering something. You're offering your life blood. You're offering your enthusiasm, and your love, and your craft, and your art. And those people can take or leave what you are offering. They can either pay you for it, or they can not pay you for it. And the problem is in the communication.

Ariel Hyatt: I just told that story of John Taglieri. If he had given up after phone call number one, where I was like, "That's weird," and I hung up, and never called me again, there would be no relationship, right? But this is the kind of artist that John is, and he put out eight albums. He got a record deal in Germany and was widely touring Europe. He got an amazing booking agent, because he always said, "Yes," and he was always solving problems, and figuring out how he could help people, even his booking agent. His booking agent was a big college booking agent, and he had backline, and he had a van, and the college booking agent would sometimes be flying artists in, and John would go and get them with the backline, and the van. And he became of service to this booking agency. And Ari Nisman, Degy Booking, loved working with John, because John was his guy if he ever needed something.

Ariel Hyatt: Be that person even to your booking agent. And think, "How can I be of service, or be helpful in some way?" And that will hugely separate you from the pack. And again, if John had given up, there would have been no relationship. And this is the deal with any type of relationship that you're making, even if it's a tiny blogger, who lives in the basement of their parent's house in Albuquerque. They are craving relationship just as much as the flashy writer who lives in a big city, and writes for a known entity.

Ariel Hyatt: And what also I've found, because I've been in this business forever, is we do this. We travel together, right? The first people I met at my first South By Southwest in 1996 on the street outside of a venue, I'm still friends with them. And there's a few of us left in the business, many of us not anymore. But this is where the good stuff happens, is with creating relationships. And so, always ask yourself, A, "How can I help?" And always remind yourself, "Without you, we don't have anything at all."

Michael Walker: That's so good. All right, so Ariel, I know you have a three-month old baby at home.

Ariel Hyatt: I do, and he's sleeping now, thank God.

Michael Walker: So, I'll let you go here, but thank you so much for taking the time to be here. And I know that you've got some really amazing resources and materials for musicians who want some more details on how to successfully reach out get their music on blogs, and with PR, and publicity, and also with crowd funding. I know, you're a best-selling author. You have four books. What's the best way for them to get in contact with you or to learn more?

Ariel Hyatt: Well, for everyone that's taking your course, we talked about this, and I'd love to offer you my Music Publicity masterclass totally for free. It's $100 a class. It breaks down in very, very deep detail a lot of the things we talked about today, how to write your pitch, how to prepare for publicity, how to get a really good media list, how to pitch, how to not get deflated during the pitch problem, how to make your pitch better, and then, what do you do with the publicity? Because that's another thing that we didn't have time to talk about today. But that's all covered in my course. You can find it ... I guess there's probably going to be a link here, or you can come to cyberprmusic.com, and there you can read all about the other books I've written. And there's 11 other courses if you want to take them with me. But the Music Publicity masterclass is totally for free, and is my way of saying, "Here's a gift for all of us," now that we're all suffering from this ridiculous global pandemic, which is so sad and hard.

Michael Walker: Mm-hmm (affirmative), well thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. And yeah, so Ariel, you're awesome. Thanks again. It's been great meeting you, and I wish you all the best with your three-month old. We have a baby on the way coming in two months.

Ariel Hyatt: Thanks, I know.

Michael Walker: So, we're in the same boat.

Ariel Hyatt: I'm so excited for you. I know, well, amazing. Thanks so much for the opportunity.

Michael Walker: Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today. And if you want to support the podcast, then there's a few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit Subscribe, then that'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share that with your friends on your social media, tag us. That really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you, who want to their music careers to the next level. The time to be a modern musician is now, and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.