Sidney Eugene:
I think it's just like taking a step back and really enjoying the process, enjoying the journey, like really just saying, "This is what I'm here for." Because I'm here to tell you, once you cross the finish line, the finish line moves. I thought, once you cross the finish line, you just get to chill. You just get to, I don't know, drink Mai Tais and be fanned all day. But that's not what happens. Like you cross the finish line, and then somehow, magically, another one appears and you're just like, "Okay, now, that's the goal."

Michael Walker:
It's easy to get lost in today's music industry, with constantly changing technology, and where anybody with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician, and it's only getting better. If you have high-quality music, but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people, and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now, to reach millions of new listeners every month, without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution in today's music industry, and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

Michael Walker:
All right, well I'm really excited to be here today with Sydney Eugene. So Sydney has worked at Warner Brothers from the age of 16, where he became one of the youngest employees at the record label. He helped to facilitate a $52 million deal when you were like, what, 19 years old?

Sidney Eugene:
Yes.

Michael Walker:
Man, when I was 19 years old, I was like sneaking out of my house. Well, no, that's not true, that was 17 years old. At that point, you're just starting to... We were living in our vans with Paradise Fears.

Sidney Eugene:
Nice.

Michael Walker:
Definitely not facilitating $52 million deals. Sydney has a ton of experience, specifically with really navigating the record label side of the music business. And today, I thought it would be really helpful to talk about record deals, and when and if it's a good time, what are the pros and cons of those kinds of deals, and how to negotiate a great deal, and just to kind of get your insight on right now and what are some of the biggest opportunities for musicians in regards to these different career paths that they could go on, whether it's independents or with a record label. Sydney, thanks so much for taking the time to be here today.

Sidney Eugene:
Yeah, well thank you, man. It's a pleasure and a honor. Like I say, I'm really pleased with your platform, everything you're doing to help artists, and my heart goes out to you. I really thank you for just even taking your time to have me on this interview. That'd be awesome.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely, dude. No, I appreciate that. Yeah, I think we're all part of this movement that's happening right now with the music industry. There's a lot of things, and there's a lot of things that are around the world, not just the music industry, but things that are kind of broken with it, and things that are, there's a revolution happening, and there's a lot of growth, but also, a lot of disorientation when it comes to that kind of thing. Because things are re-growing, and technology is crazy. So I always appreciate being able to have conversations with people like you, to be able to kind of help navigate and see, where are we going to take the ship.

Sidney Eugene:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Walker:
To start out with, one question for you is just, from the experience that you have working with a lot of artists, and also kind of working on different components of the music industry. What do you say are some of the biggest challenges or mistakes or kind of the biggest hurdles that musicians are facing when they first start working with you?

Sidney Eugene:
Interesting, that's a good question. I think one thing I see across the board is a perception, and maybe even you could say a misperception, of how the industry really works. As you alluded to my time at Warner, like I say, for me, it was eye-opening. I was signed to a Warner sub-label at the age of six. So I thought this is how it works. My mom signed to EMI. She had two top five hits. We know the music side, the artist side. So I'm traveling, touring. I'm thinking like, "This is the music business. This is what it is." Everybody's catering to me, like what color M&Ms do you like, that world. I'm just like, "Yeah, this is what music business is all about."

Sidney Eugene:
Then when I fast forward 10 years and I'm at Warner Brothers, my first day, I remember saying, "Yeah, this is different. This is not what the music industry that I was taught is about at all. What is all of this? What are all these people doing here? Where are the artists?" It was all this paperwork and filing cabinets, like what does that have to do with music? So I think it's just the misperception of what the industry is at large, in fact, because when you realize that the music business represents a good 90% of our industry. You hear that number fluctuate from 80 to 90, but I think it, sometimes it could go up to 99. I think that sometimes it's really just all business and then it's this gem of a song that you have or gem of an artist that you have, that you're able to just create magic with. But the infrastructure is what supports that, right?

Sidney Eugene:
Yeah, I would say the number one challenge is that misperception of what the industry is, so they're just like, "Yeah, I want to be in the industry." And they just don't have a clue. Something really quick to that is, so when I started at Warner, I started in the marketing department. There was actually two of us that made history. My best friend, he started working in the administrative department. And so I thought he had the better job, because he got to listen to demos. That's all he did, all day, was listen to demos. I'm like, "That's what I want to do."

Sidney Eugene:
But my job was, I was on the marketing side, so I'm just looking at numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers. So they would tell him, "If you like one of those demos, you can take it home. If you like it that much, it's yours to keep." This is '93, golden era of music, Warner Brothers in the heart of Music City. These are not cheap demos. This is not a Nirvana tape that they recorded in a bedroom or Motown in the bathroom. This is like 40, 50 thousand dollar demo budgets, where there's session musicians and the best of the best. And they're sending them to Warner, hoping that they get that moment. And they're saying, "If you like this..."

Sidney Eugene:
Now mind you, first of all, these are 16-year-old kids listening to this. So it's not like, we're not in a decision-making position. We're trying to see how many Whoppers we can eat, like stuffing ourselves. That's our thing. So they say, "Look, if you like this, you can take it home." That really just stood out to me, because I'm a music guy. I'm thinking, "Why would you tell us we could take it home? What are we going to do with it?"

Sidney Eugene:
Then on my side, where I just sat in this little office and looked at numbers all day, it was basically like watching the stock market. They say, "If you see anything that gets close to 19,000, you highlight it and come find us immediately." So instantly, I'm thinking, "Okay, what side of this is the business?" Because these people are jumping on the private jet and coming after you, okay.

Sidney Eugene:
What I found to be the case is that, most of the people that had those numbers, they weren't interested in Warner Brothers. Not that they weren't interested, but it wasn't their end game. Their thing was, "I'm going to put out my quality product, the best that I can, and I'm just going to do my own thing. I'm going to cut my own wood, carry my own water, and then just tilling their land." And we show up out of the blue and say, "Hey, look, you're on our radar. We want to make you an offer you can't refuse." Like you say, certainly some of those people, that's a life-changing scenario, where Warner comes to them.

Sidney Eugene:
But for some, that wasn't the case at all. Some were just like, "Hey, thank you for noticing, but we're going to keep doing what we're doing over here. Evidently, we're doing something right." So that was one of the staples in regards to forming my identity in regards to the music industry. Because it was like, "Wait a second. I'd rather have people jumping on the jet to come after me than me having a $50,000 budget to send something that ends up in a 16-year-old's bedroom, jamming out with his friends."

Michael Walker:
Wow. Man, what a powerful story. Yeah, that's really interesting. So sounds like, in a nutshell, one mistake that a lot of musicians make is searching, reaching out to a lot of, maybe record labels, kind of hoping someone else is going to come save them and counterintuitively, that's like one of the most difficult things to do, because if you haven't started out by building something successful yourself, then it makes you a lot less attractive to record labels.

Michael Walker:
When it comes to becoming more attractive to record labels, it sounds like a big part of it is the data and the numbers.

Sidney Eugene:
Absolutely.

Michael Walker:
And having proof that you have something that's starting to gain momentum. How would you recommend that someone who's listening to this right now, obviously there's so many moving parts, and different ways to promote yourself. What are some of the things that you'd recommend right now, for them to become more attractive and to be able to build that audience?

Sidney Eugene:
Yeah, well that's a great question, as well. We actually went through this. In 2013, when we first started kind of being proactive to go after artists, we said, "Okay, if an artist was quarantined," now look at the irony of this. In 2013, we said, "If an artist was quarantined in their bedroom, what could they do to have a successful music career?" It's like, you're stuck in your bedroom, how do you make it work? The formula was simply, one person at a time. You already have your craft. You know that part. As artists, we all get that part. That's the part. It's challenging to even take criticism from people at times, right? Because it's like, "No, I know how it should sound." And they're like, "Well, okay." But that part, you're just less likely to be pliable on.

Sidney Eugene:
The other is the nitty gritty, like the actual people patronizing your work, how many people are going to show up to that StageIt concert or virtual set that you're going to have? So that's what we really focused on. We said, "Okay, if you just only had this room, how would you then go out and build a career?" So I think as less appealing as it sounds, and certainly not glamorous, but it's one of those scenarios where, one person at a time. Because when you find that one person that genuinely resonates with your music, or your music resonates with them, they're going to go tell somebody about it. They'll bring somebody to you. It's like, "Man, you got to hear this song."

Sidney Eugene:
I mean most of the music, like I love Portashit, like I never would have heard of Portashit if the person that introduced it to me didn't love Portashit, too, right? So they bring it to me, "Oh, you got to hear this," and then I listen to it, and I'm sold. I'm just like, "Portashit is amazing," right? But I've never seen a Portashit commercial. They don't really get much, many placements or licensing opportunities. Their music is somewhat niche, but how do I know about them? So that's one of the things.

Sidney Eugene:
So an artist would come to us and say, "I have exhausted my avenues." We'll just say, "Okay, well, watch this." We'll just go out and find one person in the hallway, "Excuse me, excuse me. Have you heard of so-and-so?" And they'll say, "Well, I never heard of that." And you've exhausted your avenues? Right? So I think it's one of those things of not overlooking the simplicity of true fans and true followers, true listeners that really just want to hear good music.

Sidney Eugene:
I think we get in our own way with setting up all these other metrics. "Well, I only had one new follower," or all these other things. But it's like, "Well, how many people genuinely became yours, that you became in fellowship with?" that then they go out and they're like your little foot soldiers. They go out and they tell everybody about you. It's like, "Oh, you got to hear this music." Or, "This music is my best. You got to check it out. This artist is one of my favorites."

Sidney Eugene:
I really think that's where it starts, something as simple as knowing your craft well enough, and so that goes to brand identity, which is something that I'm an advocate for. You have to have the brand identity, because obviously, you can take it personal if you're pushing heavy metal to someone who's a country addict and they're just like not vibing with you and you're in the wrong vein and so you take it personal, like, "Something's wrong with my music." So you certainly have to have that brand identity so you know, "I'm heavy metal, go to the heavy metallist."

Sidney Eugene:
But aside from that, it's just that core action of putting it out there, touching the people that it touches. That's one of the benefits of working at all the majors, right? So being able to see the way a star is made. The first star I saw at Warner Brothers that I was directly a part of was Faith Hill. So I got a chance to see what it looked like to make a Faith Hill. This is something that is a privileged point of view, but at the same time, it's really common sense. It's like, if someone came to her show, she was there for them. So there's a hundred people here, there's a hundred people that are going to feel like they're intimately in connection with Faith Hill. Tim McGraw is the same way.

Sidney Eugene:
Michael John Montgomery, or Michael Montgomery, I'm messing his name up, but that guy was known for it. He was known for that, if there was a thousand people, that he was going to shake a thousand people's hands afterwards. It's that type of connection that people are establish with you as their go-to artist that is far more valuable than chasing people to get them to listen to you. You find that one, that person listening, and they will do all the chasing for you. It's one of those plays.

Sidney Eugene:
One of the most successful artists that we took through our program, that's what worked for her. She had a cult following of a very small demographic. But that cult following, they did all of the hard work for us. They did all of the heavy lifting. So then when we went, we said we were going to do a 32-state tour, they took care of everything for us. They made sure that people were expecting us in those states. They made sure that everyone was tuned in for the StageIt, the virtual shows that we were doing, even before it was popular.

Sidney Eugene:
Find those people that believe in your music, and I guarantee you, it's a lot easier than you think. It really is. But it's just, in this day and age, it just seems like, "Oh, what about the algorithms?" and these other things that kind of cloudy, like I say, the playing field or the vision. But it's really as simple as, "You like the music? Here's something else." And then you kind of cater to them, and build that relationship with them. It's one of those things that we take for granted, if you think about it.

Sidney Eugene:
Toyota, we never would have even had Toyota had it not continued to become Toyota. They just mastered their lane. They said, "This is our lane." Think about Honda. Honda, he kept trying to sell his stuff to Toyota, right? He has the engine. He has the perfect engine, but he keeps trying to sell it to Toyota and Toyota's like, "We don't want this engine. We have our own." He's like, "No, you guys are doing it wrong." He's trying to, he's like, get them to reinvent their engine. And they're like, "No, no, we're doing ours right. We're Toyota." So that forces him to then focus on being Honda, and then he masters his lane, ends up putting his motor on a bicycle, and then he goes into becoming a motorcyclist, and then we ended up having the cars eventually.

Sidney Eugene:
But all that came from him just saying, "This is my lane." He tried to pitch it, so you could say that was to a major. He tried to pitch it to a major, they're like, "Oh, that's okay. We're doing our thing." But he found the people that liked it. They said, "Hey, what is that bike that you have with the motor on it? Can you make me one of those?" And something as simple as that, it's Honda. It's the number two automotive company in Japan.

Sidney Eugene:
I think it's that thing that we overlook. It's the microwave thing, like, "I need it right now. If I don't have a thousand people tomorrow, I'm a failure," that type of thing. When it's like, "No, if you just get a hundred people this year, and those hundred people bring you one each, and then you get another hundred people off of that hundred people that'll bring you one each time, and you just incrementally are increasing, your life's going to be golden." But it's just turning off the distractions that tell us, "You're not good enough." Or, "Look at you compared to this artist. They're doing it big, and you call yourself an artist?" And you're going through this whole identity crisis, based off of these projections that you're seeing. But yeah, I think it's really as simple as just finding that person that likes your music enough to tell somebody about it.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. Yeah, that really rings true to me, in terms of, like it sounds like, in a nutshell, what you're saying is that when you're just starting out from scratch, the way that you grow, the way that you connect people is by starting out by connecting with people one-to-one, and that's one of the best ways, just going one at a time and really getting to know people and sharing your music. First, making sure who you are and who are the people who are most likely to resonate with the songs, so you're actually talking to the right people and sharing it with them, but really that, it's important not to overlook the importance of that real connection. And that certainly rings true.

Michael Walker:
With my band, Paradise Fears, the first thing that really helped us to break through was what we call tour hacking now, so going out and meeting people face-to-face, one-to-one, literally sharing our songs. To that process, I think that there is... there's different stages. There's different stages of your growth as a musician and eventually, you're going to reach a point where, yeah, you literally can't... you don't have the bandwidth to meet every single person one-to-one, and your time becomes limited. But that's not where you start. You start from ground zero, and you start by taking that, and literally having as many conversations one-to-one, with as many people as you possibly can, and then you can start to get smart, as it starts to work, and you need to start to scale and leverage your time better. Then, you can start worrying out the algorithm and worrying about doing the livestreams and scaling things. But really starting out, having one-to-one conversations.

Michael Walker:
Same thing applied to Modern Musician. When I transitioned from touring full-time, and I was about to be a dad and started this business, one of the first things I tried to do is, I found a mentor who was teaching how to create online courses, so I created a course and I tried launching it. It was a new thing. I hadn't really built up any audience of musicians, and I made zero sales. And I was about to be a dad. I was like, "What am I going to do now?"

Michael Walker:
The thing that really helped start to gain traction was one-to-one, starting to talk to musicians on Zoom calls, starting to actually ask questions and build a relationship one-to-one. That's the thing that really grabbed at the roots and started to gain traction. Eventually, we had to start to scale and to build teams and to build systems with advertising and being able to leverage it. But again, it started with the one-to-one, and just talking to people and connecting with them.

Michael Walker:
And there is something about the process of connection that you get from doing that. You get this feedback, and the feedback is such a huge part of it, that feedback mechanism. The best feedback that you can get in terms of your marketing, I think, is one-to-one, literally talking to someone, seeing their reaction, seeing... As long as it's the right person and they enjoy your music, then that's super, super valuable feedback. So I appreciate that answer, which kind of brings things back to the roots of just starting out.

Sidney Eugene:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And it's so important. You're so right, man, absolutely. I think we overlook that. It's just, "How do I book out Staples tomorrow? How do I get on the main stage? How can I perform at the NFL halftime show next week?" You're just there. And I think it's just because it's not glamorous. It's not glamorous to say, "I had one person show up and I treated that one person like they were a million people." It just doesn't sound glamorous. That's the part, I really hate it when people say, "We're into show business." Because it's like, man, it makes it sound fake to me. It's like, "You mean we're in a business that's fake? You mean the minute this is all over, then we roll back the curtains and everything is different?"

Sidney Eugene:
No, I don't like to see it that way. I like to say we're in the people business. It's really just a matter of, music is people's soundtrack. It's like, if you produce the best soundtrack, then of course it's going to resonate with a lot of people, and a lot of people are going to use that soundtrack in their lives. So it's really more of a people business, and I think people used to always ask me at Warner Brothers, when they'd just always say, "Sydney, what's good music?" Because they always wanted Warner.

Sidney Eugene:
Warner, at the time, was number one. We were under Jim Ed, which is the, arguably the father of the golden era of music. So people'd always say, "What is Warner looking for? What's their thing? What's good music?" They would always ask that, "What's good music?" I would always just say, "Look, man, good music is whatever you think it is. If you're being honest with yourself, and you genuinely are like, 'This is what I have to offer,' then that's good music. That's good, man. It's good that you're being you."

Sidney Eugene:
Because on the outside looking in, people think, like "Oh, I want to sound like this person." There's a phrase that we have that's, "When it's done, it's done." That means if someone does it this way, then in our book, it's done. Okay, so now you'll be the next them. You'll be like, "You remember the way that person did it? Well, this person is kind of doing it that way." So we always say, "You want to be the reference. You want to be the reference. You want them to say, 'This reminds me of that one guy that we saw.'" You know what I'm saying? You want them to look at you as that mold.

Sidney Eugene:
I think when you adjust it that way, it just changes the ballgame. Obviously, it's contrary, probably, to popular belief. But at the same time, it's true, and it works. Because all the greats have done it. All the greats. And you just want to get past that part and just go to them being great. They have all these stories, and you're just like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, but when's the first time you played..." And this is just like, "No, dude. I never would have got to that if I didn't go through all of those stories that you didn't want me to tell, all of those hardships that I faced that made me this person that you are just idolizing now. And you don't want to go through any of your hardships, because you don't think I'm going through any. But the ones I went through is what made me the person that you're looking up to right now."

Sidney Eugene:
I think it's just taking a step back and really just enjoying the process, enjoying the journey, like really just saying, "This is what I'm here for." Because I'm here to tell you, once you cross the finish line, the finish line moves. I thought, once you cross the finish line, you just get to chill. You just get to, I don't know, drink Mai Tais and be fanned all day. But that's not what happens. Like you cross the finish line, and then somehow, magically, another one appears and you're just like, "Okay, now, that's the goal." Then you get there and it's just another one, and it just keeps going and keeps going.

Sidney Eugene:
I have really just tried to tell artist to just find the joy in the process, because that's really what you have. That's really what you have. Because once the process is over, you're pretty much over. So it's like, no one's checking for you anymore, because it just moves so fast. So then, some 16-year-old kid is knocking you off the block, because he's into his or she's into her process.

Sidney Eugene:
Yeah, I really think you're spot-on about what you say, man. It's so beautiful to hear you say it, too, because you're a testament of the success that comes along with following that procedure, and then really doing it. Because I think so many people, it just sounds good. It's like, "Yeah, I could do that." But then, actually doing it is a whole nother subject. I really, I commend you for doing it, because I think it gives a lot of people hope.

Michael Walker:
Thanks, man. I appreciate that.

Sidney Eugene:
You're welcome.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, I've heard a lot of stories, too, about people who are way more successful than Paradise Fears or than I am. I mean, Taylor Swift, I remember Rick Barker saying that that was how she started out, too, is just meeting people one-to-one, and she... and it seems like that's just a pattern that comes up over and over again.

Michael Walker:
I think it's really interesting, too, and really important, the point you brought up, which a lot of us struggle with, like the balancing act of being authentic and being true to ourselves and also this tendency to want to kind of chase what's popular or what's successful. I think there's different ways to look at it, because in a lot of ways, what's current or what's popular is sort of, indicates a need or indicates this movement. And maybe by tapping into that way, you can catch the wave and in a lot of ways, if your goal is commercial success, then a lot of times, there are certain... there's certain production styles and there's different elements that you can take into play and you can reference other people.

Michael Walker:
But it sounds like what you're pointing to, as well, is that you don't ultimately achieve that success by just chasing other people and only chasing, and never reflecting and looking inwards and being true to yourself, that it's really important to bring authenticity and bring who you are, and to not necessarily just be chasing a goal or chasing something else, but learning to enjoy the process, because ultimately, that's the thing that is always here, and doesn't go away when you reach it. Goals are the things that there's the hamster wheel, like it never ends.

Sidney Eugene:
Right, right. You're so right. Absolutely.

Michael Walker:
In regards to that balancing act, like the balancing act of both being authentic and also, I think that there can be a danger to leaning too far an extreme and just being like, "Well, just like..." I think sometimes people feel confused or they don't know how to practically navigate advice, like, "Be yourself." Which is so funny, when you think about it. It's like, how can you not? You don't have to try to be yourself. You are yourself. How crazy is it? Someone gives you a, "Be yourself." Okay. Have you ever not been yourself? Like, "Try not to be yourself." So it is kind of interesting, and this is something we could go down a real rabbit hole here, but I think, what is the self?

Sidney Eugene:
Right, yeah.

Michael Walker:
There's a lot of interesting stuff to dive into there. But what are your thoughts in terms of navigating that, like that self-expression, being authentic and being congruent, but also wanting to be commercially viable, and wanting to explore what's trending right now? How would you recommend artists think about that?

Sidney Eugene:
Yeah, it's interesting. That takes me to magnetism. I'm all about this. I just firmly have this concept that the more magnetism or magnetized you are, the more you have the ability to bend reality. And it happens, like we've seen it so many times, where someone just stays in their lane, masters their lane so much, until the next thing you know, it's a marketing fad after that.

Sidney Eugene:
Something as simple as Jared with the whole Subway thing. It's like, this is just genuinely his thing. But then it becomes huge, and then he goes and does all these other things, these other avenues, because you then have what's called the halo effect, where you've done one thing really well, and they've said, "Well, he's probably good at everything." So then he goes on and he's for Sprint and all these other places, he's doing all these other things.

Sidney Eugene:
But that, I think, is the key. Because if you look at Jimi Hendrix, Ozzy Osborne, these people who just said, "I am me. I'm just this guy that I have." And then they're them so much that they embody it, and it just becomes this radiating force, and then next thing you know, you come in the room and they're in it and you feel their presence, and they haven't even said anything. You're just like walking interest here like, "Whoa, somebody's in here." And you can feel it, because of the magnetism with everybody.

Sidney Eugene:
Just think of any time you've met a celebrity. There's that magnetism. You can't even describe it. I see celebrities all the time, and it's like even I, I still get like, "Whoa, what are you doing?" You can't help but be overtaken by it, because it's like they're them so much, they've just become themselves so much, that anything they do is brilliant. You're just like, "This is awesome. Whatever you're doing is brilliant."

Sidney Eugene:
So then we have it to where commercialism is basically just the capitalization of that, capitalizing on the people that are doing enough of it that we can monetize it. So then, you have like, it could be fashion, it could be anything. Look at the monetary aspects that came along with Kaepernick. This guy is like, it's an ad. You know what I'm saying? It's like, "How do we commercialize this? Let's do our thing." It's like, I don't think that was his intention, but it just goes to show that yeah, when you own that lane, anything could become commercial. Because now it's just, how do we capitalize on this monetarily, that's certainly taken off.

Sidney Eugene:
People used to laugh at bell bottoms. People laughed at Ralph Lauren. They thought, "This guy's crazy." One of my mentors, a guy by the name of Jules, he is the reason we have Fruit of the Loom making panties. Fruit of the Loom, they didn't make panties at first. He says, "No, we should make panties." Obviously, he's largely successful because of it, because it went over really well. But they say, "Well, if the panties don't do well, then what will we do?" He's, "Oh, we'll just cut a slit in them, sell them as briefs."

Sidney Eugene:
It's like, it's one of those things where you have that precursor or the outlier that becomes the mainstay. It's like that one person just does something so weird, that like... Okay, André 3000. You think of André, you don't know if he's going to wear, what, a football uniform, a hockey uniform, or is he going to come out in a soccer uniform? Is he going to have a fur or what is he going to... You get what I'm saying? It just became his thing, so that now when you say André, he can come in literally wearing a bathing suit, and you'll just be like, "Oh yeah, that's André. That's André 3000." And they will market it, and it will be very commercialized, because this is what his lane has become.

Sidney Eugene:
I think it's one of those things where, one, you want to find that joy. That's the only reason I've been in this business my entire life. That's the only reason. If it wasn't a joy, I would have left a long time ago. But you find that joy. Are you more happy writing music or making food? If you're more happy making food, but you also are good at making music, you might be in the culinary field. Then you figure out, "How can I put these two worlds together?" Maybe you're making soundtracks for radios, I mean for restaurants or for chefs. They need music, right?

Sidney Eugene:
There's ways you can find how all your talents can coexist, but have to start with one. For us, with the music dialogue, if you're making music and you don't feel joy, you're probably doing something wrong. You probably should just find the joy. I hear people this all the time, "I'm really trying to find my joy." It's like, "Okay, well when you find your joy, you'll know." It's not really hard. It's something you can do. You're not think about eating. You're just really lost in the moment of it. You're in flow. You just really enjoy this, and it's something that you would do for free.

Sidney Eugene:
I used to think that was the most clichéd thing to hear somebody say it. It's like, "Well, whatever you like, would do for free." It's like, "I don't want to do anything for free. What do you mean? I'll do it for free?" But then it rings so true when you're actively in it. Because you're like, "You know what? I actually like doing this so much, that I would do this for free." Then you do it so much and you perfect it so well, that you end up getting offered millions of dollars to do the same thing you would have done for free.

Sidney Eugene:
But it's that joy that resonates with people, because they can tell. People can tell, because it's all energy. You're saying, "What is self?" To me, I think self is just energy. I think we're all just balls of energy and so that energy is what translates, and that's what allows us to be transparent. You can say one thing, but your energy says something else, and everyone knows the truth. Your energy is what's speaking. They're like, "Well, I hear you saying you're having a great day, but your energy is off today. So whatever it is we need to correct, let's correct it."

Sidney Eugene:
I think that is it, is like, whatever energizes you, because some people might not even know what joy is. It's like, "What is joy? I don't know. I've never heard that word." So whatever energizes you, whatever brings you to the surface, makes you show up to the occasion, that is what you hone in on and you do. I guarantee you'll do it better than anybody else can do it, because it's yours. It's yours. I have this saying that the voice of love or your voice of love will not be heard if you don't speak. So it's like, no one's going to take your space for that. It's yours. When you speak, it'll come out and people'll hear it and say, "Man, if you hadn't said that, the conversation would have been empty." I think it's just doing that well enough for an extended period of time that it's validated.

Sidney Eugene:
So that becomes the balancing act, because it's, how long can you sustain this without the validations. So then it's like, you then have to have your own self motivating and that's the, "I would do it for free," part of it. Because it's like, "No, I'm validated by doing this, because it's what I'm here to do. I know this is what I'm here to do. So in doing it, I'm validated." Then, you just do it so well, that you become magnetic.

Sidney Eugene:
Before you know it, you have people emulating what you're doing. They're just like, "I want to do it that way." You know there was one kid that was like, "I'm going to wear my baseball cap to the back." This is one kid and this is like, "What? I've never seen that before." Then now, you have so many people put the cap to the back. But there had to be that one person that did it first, that was... I mean, he could have been a rebel, like you say, an outlier. But now it's a mainstay. It's like, "Cool." It's like, "Hey, I put my hat on to the back." But who was the first person to do that?

Sidney Eugene:
That's why I feel like the job of a marketer is to find out what's resonating with the people, and then just maximize it to the potential of monetization. Because if it's not that, then you're going to lose your job. You know what I'm saying? Because it's like, "Well, you keep coming up with these duds." You keep trying stuff that no one's going for. But if you just follow the trend, like follow where the people are, it's like following the smokestacks. It's like yeah, you're going to find the fire, because this is what people are resonating with. This is why it's cool.

Sidney Eugene:
Hippies made hippie lifestyle cool. At first, they smell, and it's like, "What is all this peace and all this? You guys are all high and stuff. What is this?" But then they're just like, "Wait. There's more of you? There's more of you that think this way?" And then next thing you know, it was like, "This is a whole culture of people?" And then they have their movement, and they have the hippie movement, and it transcends the culture of the United States or societies as a whole, because it's this influx of people who believe so much in their way, that you're magnetized to it now, because you have to be, or you're going to be the outlier. Because, everyone now is into this pulse.

Sidney Eugene:
I think that's the thing, which obviously there's this duration, which I think that is the part you address. Like, how do you make it through this duration, and how long could it be? You hear people like Steve Harvey and all these people that say like, "It was years." Lady Gaga and her story, like they went forever before they got to the point where it resonated enough with other people that they really were being true to themselves. But that, only time can tell. So that, I think a degree of luck maybe plays in there. But you're certainly not going to win if you're on, "Well, what are they doing. I want to do what they're doing."

Sidney Eugene:
So there's a strategy, most people may not know of it, but it's where we have a success in the industry, and then we look for everybody that's doing that, okay? Then what we're doing with the people that are doing that is, we're signing them to shelf them. We're not signing them because they're doing that, that is so successful. We're signing them to get them off the playing field, because they're competing with what we're doing that's so successful. You could possibly be our competitor, or you could possibly be the person to knock us off. So we're going to sign you, because you're doing what is popular. But it's not to sign you to make you the next name. It's to sign you so that you are no name, so people say, "What happened to that one guy?" It's like, "Oh, he was competing with our main guy, so we just signed him so we could get him off the playing field."

Sidney Eugene:
There's certainly a caution to be put out there for people who are copying other people. It's like, "Look, dude, you're good the way you are. Be you and then..." You can always tell it. You can see someone and say, "Oh, yeah. They look a lot like this artist." Or, "I can tell their influences." Like, "I can tell you're influenced by..." And there's nothing wrong with that, because I think in order to be a good musician, you have to first start out as a fan. You have to have it in you as a fan. You have to root for somebody else to win. To me, I just think it's a prerequisite. If you're doing music and you were never a fan of music, I don't get you. I can't even comprehend that world. Literally, you're, "What are you, a scientist? Are you studying this thing?" Like, "No, we're living it, you get what I'm saying?"

Sidney Eugene:
I think you do have to be a fan, but at the same time, that is to just encourage you more so than to shape you. I think the shaping happens through your own evolution, through you going straight and running into a few bumps and bruises and learning, "Oh, okay, that didn't work. Let's go this way." And then, you're perfecting that craft along the way, that inevitably leads you to where you say you become commercially viable. Because, now you're the mainstay.

Michael Walker:
What's up, guys? So quick intermission from the podcast, so I can tell you about an awesome free gift that I have for you. I wanted to share something that's not normally available to the public, that normally we reserve for our $5,000 clients that we work for personally. This is a presentation called, Six Steps to Explode Your Fan Base, and Make a Profit With Your Music Online. Specifically, we're going to walk through how to build a paid traffic and automated funnel that's going to allow you to grow your fan base online. And the system is designed to get you your first $5,000 a month with your music. We've invested over $130,000 in the past year to test out different traffic sources and different offers, and really see what's working best right now for musicians. I think it's going to be hugely valuable for you. So if that's something you're interested in, in the description, there should be a little link that you can click on to go get that.

Michael Walker:
And the other thing I wanted to mention is, if you want to do us a huge favor, one thing that really makes a big difference early on when you're creating new podcasts is if people click subscribe, then it basically lets the algorithm know that this is something that's new and noteworthy and that a lot of people actually want to hear. That'll help us reach a lot more people. If you're getting value from this, and you get value from the free trainings, then if want to do us a favor, I'd really appreciate you clicking the subscribe button. All right, let's get back to the podcast.

Michael Walker:
Super interesting. Super interesting stuff. Yeah, we're certainly getting a little more metaphysical here, when we're talking about magnetism and energy and whatnot. But I think that there is, it's sort of a good word to use, is being magnetic. And the way that communities are built and the way that celebrities are built, there really is an orbit, there's a magnetism around it. It sounds like what you're saying is that really, in order to build an audience, it's really about building this magnetism. And in order to build the magnetism, one of the best ways you can do it is by really by carving, honing in on who you are. So this is what that reminded me of, was Joseph Campbell, he talks about following your bliss.

Sidney Eugene:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Walker:
It sounded like one of the ways that you recommend people to really become more magnetic is by authentically figuring out, what is it that brings you the most joy? People who are very, very joyful, you can't... there's a lot of magnetism in that. It is kind of interesting too, though, it does seem like there's different frequencies or emotions or there's different types of magnetism, right?

Sidney Eugene:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Walker:
It's not always joyful, peace and love. There's some strong, magnetic poles, all sorts of like, some darker.

Sidney Eugene:
Oh, yes.

Michael Walker:
Like trauma, like pain. It does seem like that's also something that comes into play necessarily. It is kind of interesting that, that's not necessarily joyful. I think there is, joy is like a very high frequency emitting of radio. It's like a light. It feels good. There is something very, like pulls you in about it. But also interesting that sometimes the more, like the pain and there's like a frequency to that that kind of also is magnetic. And yeah, just the idea of really digging inward and reflecting and expressing that, and that being the thing that creates that magnetism is really interesting, and maybe not necessarily trying to chase that somewhere else, always looking somewhere else for that, but rather turning inward, turning inward and figuring out, what is... Who are you? What is it? How can you express that?

Sidney Eugene:
Kurt Cobain, you make me think about Kurt Cobain when you say that. It's like yeah, Nirvana, man? Oh, my Gosh. The music is amazing, right? It's like yeah, clearly there's magnetism there. Is he singing about roses and sunny days? Absolutely not. But the way he's expressing it, you cannot deny it. It is his personal truth. He lived it. Yeah, I think you're so right when you say that. You're absolutely right. You're spot-on. It doesn't have to be Christmas songs. But it's like, whatever yours is. Yeah, if it's dark, where would the world be if we didn't have dark music. We had to have dark music. It's like, that's kind of what gets us through those dark times, is to know, we have a soundtrack. Like we said, we have that soundtrack for it. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I send that. I'm right there with you. That's awesome, Michael.

Michael Walker:
That's powerful, and also just, like you said, the dark songs, like the... I think a lot of times, those are some of the most powerful songs, because they really shine a light on this pain or this thing that's not fully processed or not fully faced. Those are the things that by expressing, like creating the music around those things. A lot of people tend to like, those are the things that are like, "That gets to the light of day. I don't want people to see that about me. No." Like avoid looking at it.

Sidney Eugene:
Sure, right.

Michael Walker:
The scary things. But ultimately, a lot of times, that is where the most power, like the juice or the compassion and the love come from, is from expressing that and letting it go. This is good. We've definitely gone metaphysical here, but this is like, I totally geek out on conversations like this.

Sidney Eugene:
Nice, nice.

Michael Walker:
It is, it's really important to kind of get the mindset right. I also think it's really important to balance. Like, you're kind of getting the mindset, kind of zooming out, but then kind of like coming... it's like seeing the forest, zooming out and seeing the whole forest, and then kind of coming back into the forest and so I think that, what we talked about with like the one-to-one, like just connecting with people one at a time when you're starting out, and starting to scale that, is a really good, tangible way to apply what we're talking about and to communicate and learn, and to figure out how to relates with fans to be able to share your music in an effective way.

Michael Walker:
Let's say that someone's listening to this right now, and they're like, "Okay, awesome. I'm onboard with this. I know it's going to be hard. I'm just starting my audience, but I want to do this right. I want to start building an audience from scratch." How do you recommend finding those people to start having those conversations with, and what media, what platform do they use to start having these direct conversations?

Sidney Eugene:
That's a great question. Obviously now, social media is your go-to, right, everybody's social media. So I think there's something there to that. At the same time, I really like the touchpoints. I still think touchpoints are important. I think they're even more important now because they're so few and far between. Now, it's like you almost, you see the world in black and white, and then you touch somebody and it resonates with them, and they turn into color, and you're like full color, and you two are like full color now, and it's a black and white world. I think that's magical right now, because it's just so off. It's like, "Oh, I don't want to be touched. Don't talk to me right now." It's a whole bunch of other contributing factors that have made the world so disconnected.

Sidney Eugene:
I think that when we do connect, it's even more cherished, because it's like, "Wow, you actually care about me?" There's so many people that, just in random Facebook groups, that I've just reached out to, to say, "Hey, man. What are you working on? What's your music sound like? Let me check it out. What do you have?" That turned into this amazing relationship of just sharing, just one-on-one, "Check on what I'm working on now. What do you think?" "Oh, man, that's awesome. Thank you for sharing." I'm hearing it before it goes live.

Sidney Eugene:
Why is that? Well, it's just because there's this genuine care. It was just like, "Hey, man. What are you working on?" I just did this as an experiment. I just said, "Every day, I'm just going to pick some random person, and just be like, 'Hey, what's up. What do you got going on?' and just see the response." And I'm just here to tell you that, we're towards the end of February of this year, 2021, and literally people are just really taking onto this. It's just crazy how much people want people to care about what they're doing. So it's just like being genuine and showing that.

Sidney Eugene:
I think for me it's different because I'm not trying to sell anything, and I'm not really... I don't have some music I want you to stream or any of that stuff. So maybe it's a lot easier just saying genuinely, "I'm interested what you're working on." But obviously, if your goal is to convert this person to a listener, maybe you can't come just out like that. But I think that there's something to it, in regards to human relations. Just like, "Hey, I'm talking to you."

Sidney Eugene:
I think in different societies or different... obviously in New York, they are like, "Hey, why are you talking to me? What's your problem? What do you want? What's this whole thing about? I ain't got for this, you know what I'm saying?" I think it's different obviously in different places. But even my New York companions, I've noticed them to be more open to relationships now, because of what they've just went through, being locked down and not being able to go outside, and they're so much outdoor people, so it's like, "Oh, I can't go outside, and so I'm just confined to this device and to my quarters." I think there's something there, when they get that chance to communicate or to meet somebody or to talk to somebody, even someone that's as standoffish as a New Yorker, still saying like, "Oh, this is awesome. I got a chance to talk to somebody or I met someone or they shared something with me."

Sidney Eugene:
Yeah, I think that whatever platform is the most genuine to you, if it's Facebook, if it's Instagram, I think TikTok and those platforms, they don't really give you as much access to really dial in like that. It's more of a show type of scenario, like a YouTube thing, like in smaller segments. But it's not really that engagement so much, as people are just watching you. And then yeah, obviously there's some commentary. But as far as building a base and saying, "Hey, here I am. Come check me out," whatever social media platform resonates the most with you, I do probably favor Instagram. That's just because it's the one that I can go on and speak without speaking. Because on Instagram, you can post a meme, and it says everything for you. And then there's the dialogue that happens after that, because people are like, "Hey, this is right on. I like what you're saying." I think there's something to that.

Sidney Eugene:
But my whole thing is controlling the gateway. I think, no matter where you are online, you have to get people to your door. You have to have your own gateway. You have to have your own point of contact, where people are coming to you as the resource, because largely, one of the things we've found in doing that experiment, where we had the artists, how are they going to live off of not being able to touch people or go out in 2013? And one of the things we found that was most important was that they had their own gate, that they controlled their own gate. Yes, the minute they say, "Hey, we're closing down venues. You guys can't perform here anymore," if you don't have access to those people, all your people just left. They're all gone. It's like, "Oh, well how do I talk to the people that were coming to see me?" It's like, "Those are our people. We talk to them. They bought tickets from us, not from you."

Sidney Eugene:
I think no matter what, you have to get people to your world, because your world is king for them. That's where you can be yourself and always just pull as many people as you can over, because there's all these censors, as well. If you're putting content on Facebook that doesn't really agree with their platform, they're just going to censor your content. So then, what do you do? What if all your true people were there? So then now you have to somehow find a way to be true, to get these people from Facebook over to your gate, over to your world, so that they can then see you unrestricted or uncensored.

Sidney Eugene:
It's a very strategic process, but I certainly think by just having those conversations with wherever your people are, then you can get them over to your platform. I'm a firm believer in owning your own platform. You have to have your platform. Even if you play fair, because I certainly also believe in omnipresence, where if I go look for your music on DZER and you're not there, what if all I know is DZER? You get what I'm saying? What if your music really is my soundtrack, and I'm just not going to get it, because you're not on DZER? I certainly believe there's something to omnipresence. Be on Qobuz. There's people that listen to Qobuz that'll never listen to YouTube music or whatever. So you got to be on Qobuz, because how you going to get those people, or DZER, or like you said, these other platforms.

Sidney Eugene:
I certainly believe in omnipresence, but I also believe in preference. I believe there should be some type of preferential treatment that's given to the people that are on your platform. It's like, "Yeah, my whole album is on DZER, but my B-sides are only on my website." So it's like, "Yeah, if you want these B-sides, I got to get you from DZER over here." Obviously, that's a lot harder to do with DSPs like DZER or Spotify or Qobuz even, for that matter. But you have to find that entry point. You have to find, "Okay, how do I get them?"

Sidney Eugene:
Because what happens the most time, for me, new music discovery, I hear the music and I go look the person up, right, because this music resonates with me. Like, "Who is this?" And I go look them up. Then I see all the avenues where they are. And if I'm in those same avenues, I'm going straight there. If I'm on Instagram, they're on Instagram, I'm going straight to Instagram, and I'm following them.

Sidney Eugene:
Then it gets to, like you said, having that buffer, where it's like, okay, how many real messages, DMs, can you really respond to? How many people genuinely mean well in those DMs? Some females, their DMs are crazy. They're just like, "Do you see the abuse that I'm taking through this DM?" So it's like, yeah. You have to have that filter, where it's just like, "Okay, these are just trolls. They don't mean you well." But if you weed through, there's that one that you are their lighthouse. To get a message from you in their DM, they will share that with the world. And that's the most important thing for you, because now, they're going to bring you all these other people that really feel the same way about you, just because of the way they received you. So they got it from this other person, say, "Oh, they reached out to me."

Sidney Eugene:
I don't know if you're familiar with IKEA, but that was IKEA's story. We wouldn't even have IKEA if they didn't do that. IKEA's philosophy was, the first two years, any time anybody returns anything, we don't ask any questions. We just accept it, and send them a new one. Even if they don't return it, if they reach out to us and say, "Hey, I bought this IKEA bed, one of the legs is a little wobbly. I don't know how I feel about it," they'd just send you a brand new bed. So now, you have the wobbly bed, and then you have a brand new bed. You know what I'm saying? So now, what did that do for their PR? It was amazing, because they had so many people that was just like, "I complained to IKEA and then they took care of it like that for me. I did this." And then you have so many loyal customers that are just, "I would never buy anything but IKEA," because of that customer service relationship that they went through.

Sidney Eugene:
It's that delicate scenario where you certainly don't want to answer all the DMs. They're not all there for your benefit. But there's that one, and there's maybe even more than that, that if you answer that, it could bring you a hundred new people instantly. And they're all going to come right to your platform, because you're saying on your Instagram, "If you like this content, there's way more of it on my platform. I just let loose on my platform, because I'm uncensored. I can do whatever I want to do. I can livestream. I can say whatever I want to say. It's my platform."

Sidney Eugene:
I think by making yourself so important to the listeners that they will go wherever you are to get what you have, that's when it's just, it's next-level? But you also got to go within your flow. If it's, like the new platforms, I don't know if you're familiar with LÜM, but it's a new platform that so many people are using. LÜM is great for, especially working internationally like we do, most of our artists are international, but LÜM is an amazing platform.

Sidney Eugene:
There's so many people that are connecting on LÜM, and building these relationships, and it's because they have the touchpoints. You can talk directly to the person that you want to deal with, and you can engineer the deal. It's like, "Hey, I'm a producer in London, but I want to produce this beat for you," and they send it over. And the artist has it, and now you just co-lab from miles and miles away. I think there's something to platforms like that, where you can actually engage the person, you can talk to the person, and then they can bring you on over to their platform, which is hopefully their website or wherever they are doing most of their uncensored work.

Sidney Eugene:
But yeah, as long as it's in your flow, as long as it's something that you're doing regularly, you'll be good. If it's like, you've mastered Facebook, who cares that TikTok is doing what it's doing. Work your lane in Facebook, that's where your people are. But I'm also telling you, you got to get your people off of Facebook. Not necessarily off of Facebook, but you also got to have them present on Facebook and present in your world. They have to know that you have your own world, because the minute Facebook says, "Hey, we're going to MySpace you guys, we're out." And they throw the deuces and, "We're done, we're closing up our doors," what do you do? What do you do if all your people were there? Now, you're just scrambling, trying to figure out, "How do I hold onto my Facebook people," when it's like, no, that has to be the first thought. "I know you've seen me on Facebook, but guess what, you see a lot more of me over here."

Michael Walker:
Yeah, yeah. That's so important, and something that, that I think you're right, that is overlooked sometimes, is the importance of having your own contact list, your own email list, your own text message list, and just, I like the way you put it, just like your own platform, your own gateway, where you can connect more deeply with people. A core part of every musician's strategy and every online business strategy should be getting people to their platform and getting email subscribers and being able to connect with them directly.

Michael Walker:
One thing earlier, when you were talking about starting out by the one-on-one, talking to people and getting them to your platform, and how people really just value being heard and appreciated when you reach out. It's not about me, me, me, me, me, but it's really just a genuine connection that you want to build. That's really valuable to people, to be seen and be heard like that. That reminded me of Zig Ziglar quote, "If you want anything, then give it to other people. If you want something, then if you give that to other people, then you'll have more than you ever need." Something on those lines.

Sidney Eugene:
Yes, yes.

Michael Walker:
I'm butchering the quote. But I think that's a really important point that you brought up, is that if you want people to care about you, then start caring about them and start giving that out and I think that, that's a really important step at the very beginning, when you're having these conversations, that it really is about building a relationship and getting to know them, connecting with them, caring about them. I don't think there's anything wrong with necessarily having an agenda in mind. The agenda, when you have those conversations, should absolutely be to build a relationship and to get them onto your platform and to get them to listen to the music.

Sidney Eugene:
Yes.

Michael Walker:
It's good to have those targets and those goals that are going to benefit you and benefit your music career. As long as the goals that you have are also benefiting them, then it's a win-win.

Sidney Eugene:
Right, right.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, I think that, that's a really valuable thing for anyone who's listening to us right now, is sort of to just start reaching out. Maybe follow 10 other artists that you're a big fan of on Instagram, start seeing who's replying, who's commenting, who's engaged with the post, and start following them. And you reach out to them in their DMs, if they follow you back, and say, "Hey, just wanted to reach out and get in touch. I saw you're a fan of this band. I'm a huge fan of them, too. What's your favorite song?"

Sidney Eugene:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michael Walker:
Then it's like, boom. Now, you start having this conversation, and you can build a relationship. And then, naturally, that can lead to them listening to your song. Yeah, awesome stuff. All right, man. Well, hey, this has been a really fun conversation.

Sidney Eugene:
Same.

Michael Walker:
I feel like we've gone into orbit, kind of like the way we talked today, we've gone to magnetism and energy.

Sidney Eugene:
Yes.

Michael Walker:
And talked about a lot of the mindset and also gotten really granular about some of the tactical, the rootedness of both finding the thing that brings you the most joy, following your bliss is a big part of it, and the magnetism. Then also, just the practical, how do you build a fan base from scratch? Well, one at a time. You reach out to them one at a time. You build a relationship with them and then you can start to scale that.

Michael Walker:
I super appreciate you taking the time to share your experience and your wisdom, from navigating a $52 million deal when you were 19 years old, joining Warner Brothers when you were 16 years old, when I was living in my van, sleeping in Walmart parking lots. So, Sydney, if anyone's listening to this right now and they're interested in learning more from you or connecting, where would be the best place for them to go?

Sidney Eugene:
Awesome. If you would like to join our email list, I'm tinyurl.com/learnmbe. So that's L-E-A-R-N-M-B-E, so LearnMBE, and it stands for Learn Music Business Essentials. You can easily go to learnmbe.com, as well. It's learnmbe.com and we have a lot of information there. I'm doing my best to be more active on social media, so our Instagram and our Facebook, I try my best to chime in regularly, so that I can pour a little bit of wisdom there. But certainly, if you want to join our mailing list, we have a lot of free stuff that we give out. It's really cool, just these resources that are just really, really cool, next level-type stuff that you kind of take for granted, like multiple streams of income and tax deductions, those types of things.

Sidney Eugene:
So many people are putting money into music and they don't know, like these are write-offs. We really highlight those things, because what we were charged with was, if an artist wants the Taylor Swift-type of lifestyle or type of... in the means of being in music like that, how could they do it if they didn't have Taylor Swift's bank account? Because obviously, she has a significant amount of resources to come in. We're always looking at how to tilt the machine, like how can we get you to that point in a different way? I think the philosophy of that permeates in regards to our social presence, social media presence. Yeah, absolutely, check out any of those LearnMBE platforms or our social media accounts. But the tinyurl.com/learnmbe is where you can sign up for our email list and we'll send you all that we can.

Michael Walker:
All right. Fantastic. And one thing I'll do for everyone that's listening, too, is just in the show notes, I'll put the links so you have easy access to all the goods.

Sidney Eugene:
Nice.

Michael Walker:
Cool.

Sidney Eugene:
Nice.

Michael Walker:
All right, Sydney, well hey, it's been-

Sidney Eugene:
I really appreciate you, Michael.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, man. I appreciate you. It's been a lot of fun talking and thanks again.

Sidney Eugene:
Yeah, awesome, man.

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guests today. If you want to support the podcast, then there's two ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe, then that'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends on your social media, tag us. That really helps us out. Third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you, who want to take their music careers to the next level. The time to be a modern musician is now, and I'll look forward to seeing you on our next episode.