Keatly Haldeman:
Fundamentally just understanding why video creators need music in their productions. It is to help move the picture along, that's the reason.

Michael Walker:
It's easy to get lost in today's music industry with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music.

Michael Walker:
I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician, and it's only getting better.

Michael Walker:
If you have high quality music but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that it can reach the right people to generate a sustainable income with your income, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media.

Michael Walker:
We're creating a revolution in today's music industry and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host Michael Walker.

Michael Walker:
All right. So I am really excited to be here with Keatly Haldeman who's a new friend and I was making a list of, because usually when I interview people I point out three of four things.

Michael Walker:
We have some amazing people that we interview but with Keatly I had to be super selective because there's a billion things that I can mention here that you guys would recognize and it's insane.

Michael Walker:
So a few of them are so he's a CEO of Riptide Music and they're one of the biggest players right now in terms of getting your music license to sync in TV and film.

Michael Walker:
Had over 50 million dollars in sync placements. Represented major artists like Major Lazer, Oasis, Ziggy Marley, Black Flag, Lynyrd Skynyrd, The Lumineers, Vanessa Carlton.

Michael Walker:
I would walk a thousand miles if I could just speak to Keatly. But in fact we have Zoom so we don't need to actually do that. I just came up with that on the spot too, is that impressive or what?

Keatly Haldeman:
That was good.

Michael Walker:
So they've also gotten their music placed on video games like FIFA, Madden, Tony Hawk. If you're a geek like me then you know those are massive video games. Music placed on movie trailers like Star Wars, Avengers. TV shows, Grey's Anatomy, Pretty Little Liars, Mad Men, 24, Orange is the New Black, Breaking Bad, Fargo. And worked with businesses like Apple, Pepsi, Nintendo, Facebook, BMW, American Express, Alexus.

Michael Walker:
So, in a nutshell, massive success with TV sync licensing if it's a video game, TV, film. And so today we're only going to zero in on for you as an independent artist what are the best ways that you can develop relationships and that you can get your music synced to TV, film, and what are some best practices you can be successful in that realm, and Keatly has a ton of experience and wisdom to share with you.

Michael Walker:
So, Keatly that was a big introduction because there are so many things that we will mention. But thanks so much for taking the time to be here today.

Keatly Haldeman:
Yeah, thanks for having me and I'm here in Joshua Tree, which is not normally where I am. So, outside there's a little bit of wind, it's very beautiful out. So, if you hear wind and you hear dogs in the background, that's what's going on.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, yeah. I know. He mentioned that. He's on a trip right now and traveling and so I'm really grateful that we were able to just find the time to do this.

Michael Walker:
But we'll make our way around the wind and the noise and if we need to, I got piano background music that we can use to make transitions.

Keatly Haldeman:
Very good.

Michael Walker:
So, I'd love to start off by just hearing a little bit about your story and how you got started with Riptide and this career with licensing.

Keatly Haldeman:
Yeah. I was in bands since I was 11 years old, started playing music when I was five, piano, then drums at seven. Picked up guitar at 12.

Keatly Haldeman:
And then I was in rock bands all the way from about 11 years old till my late 20s. And it was always the thing that I was doing with my buddies and loved it.

Keatly Haldeman:
So, I never really thought I can make a career in music that was not on my radar at all. My parents encouraged me to have a real profession, a real job, be a doctor or a lawyer or business man or engineer. Those were sort of the options that were available to me.

Keatly Haldeman:
So, I chose engineer, because I was good at math and I liked robots. I thought Dinobots were really cool. So, I decided to go to undergrad for electrical engineering and robotics specifically.

Keatly Haldeman:
Got into a band while I was there and then another band and then another band. So, that was always my thing. Realized fairly quickly I did not like the robotics side of things. It was not nearly as interesting as I was hoping for.

Keatly Haldeman:
So I found myself in signal processing, which was still audio engineering focused. So able to marry my love of music and still get a "real job" on the engineering side.

Keatly Haldeman:
Then I applied to grad school, decided to take a year off to play with my band. So, that was a year. We all moved into a house in Orange County, California, that's where I'm from. And we just made music day and night and really tried to make it to see what we could do.

Keatly Haldeman:
At the end of that year, I didn't make it quite as far as I was hoping as the drummer in a band. So, I decided to give up music forever and go to grad school to be an engineer and that was it.

Keatly Haldeman:
I made this real conscious decision that I gave it a shot, it didn't work, that's okay. I still feel satisfied with that. But when I was in college my senior year I got into making electronic music. So I decided I'm going to just get a computer and some software, I get Ardour and have that as a hobby just to mess around.

Keatly Haldeman:
So, I go to grad school, couple weeks into it I sleepy panicked. I looked all around and everybody was very different from me. I had come from trying to be a rockstar for a year, my hair was bleached out and all these guys were total nerds, which I say that with love and affection and great respect.

Keatly Haldeman:
But their passion and joy in life was science and engineering and my passion in life was music. So I could tell that I wasn't going to be competitive with these guys once we got through grad school and actually I had to go get a job and live life.

Keatly Haldeman:
And that freaked me out because, a, I want to make sure that whatever I'm doing in life I'm passionate about and I enjoy it. But also I want to make sure that I can excel and be great at what I do and I didn't think that I was going to be able to be competitive with them.

Keatly Haldeman:
So, I was able to switch into another program that was music, science and technology. So, still techy but on the music side. Within that program though, I learned my way around the studio. They have a studio on campus.

Keatly Haldeman:
I ended up scoring a digital 3D animated three-minute short. That was really my first glimpse into music for picture. I didn't know much about that world before then. I really liked it so I started going on Craigslist and seeing if I could go score some other little shorts and I was able to do a couple.

Keatly Haldeman:
And while I was in grad school, this new program was not nearly as rigorous as the engineering program. So I had a lot of extra time and I found myself just making electronic music five, six hours a day. So I really got into that.

Keatly Haldeman:
I honed my jobs on the production side and really enjoyed that. So more and more I knew I wanted to make music for a living and just be in music.

Keatly Haldeman:
At the end of grad school luck would have it that my cousin was producing a feature-length film and she needed someone to do all the sound and the music supervision, dialogue editing, everything relating to music and audio.

Keatly Haldeman:
And she asked me if I could do it, and my response was, "Well I just did a three-minute short, so sure, why not? Let me try it out."

Keatly Haldeman:
This is a full feature-length film, almost two-hour film. So, I had no business doing it, but this was her first film, she had no business doing her film either. So we sort of all figured it out together.

Keatly Haldeman:
I moved in with her in Venice Beach in LA and hacked my way through it and made a lot of mistakes and learned a lot in the process. I met a lot of really great people. I think that was probably my biggest takeaway from that time was just going out in LA and I met someone who started a music library.

Keatly Haldeman:
I met someone who started the sound effects library. I met a composer, I met a music supervisor, I met a guy who started a record label and it's like, "Okay, cool."

Keatly Haldeman:
There are all these aspects of the business that I didn't quite understand. For me just not really having researched it, I thought the music business was rockstar, record label, and then that's it. I didn't know anything about anything else.

Keatly Haldeman:
I didn't really know about music publishing. I didn't really know about the song writing world. I definitely didn't know about the music to picture world and all the nuanced different areas in there.

Keatly Haldeman:
They're a composer but then they're also composer agents and there are composers who write for libraries and then there are composers who own the libraries and work with other composers.

Keatly Haldeman:
So it was really cool to see that and that just opened my eyes to what was possible. And so when I was done with the film, I went and moved in with my parents and started a company composing and producing music for TV film, advertising, and video games.

Keatly Haldeman:
And kind of right away when I did that, I started hanging out with all my buddies again, and they were still playing in the band that I had left as the drummer but things weren't really going well.

Keatly Haldeman:
And I had made all these tracks when I was in grad school, so I'd come home and show them. It's like, "What do you think of this?" And then the singer would say, "Oh, this is great." And hook up the microphone and he'd just start free styling and then the guitarist would just start jamming away.

Keatly Haldeman:
And then next thing you know I had five or six songs. They were really good, and we thought they were good and so we got more serious about it and even though I swore I would never be in another band again, I found myself in another band.

Keatly Haldeman:
And so my world then for the next four years or so was pretty much split between the business of composing music and creating content for visual media and playing in the band and producing a whole album for the band and really pushing it and trying to tour and do the whole thing.

Keatly Haldeman:
So, that was a very exciting time in my life, I really enjoyed that. I found as it went on though that the band wasn't going in the direction I wanted to go. It was a whole lot of work and the other side of the business was starting to take off.

Keatly Haldeman:
So, I decided to move to LA from Orange county and the band ended. But I doubled down on the business side of things. So, that's how I got started.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, and now essentially you guys are working with the top of the top businesses and movies and TV shows and video games. What I love about your story too is I think that a lot of people who are listening to this right now can probably relate with you.

Michael Walker:
I know I definitely relate with you in the sense that when you get started or growing up, you kind of have this passion for music and it's in your DNA.

Michael Walker:
I remember last time we were talking about, was it your son or was it your daughter.

Keatly Haldeman:
Yeah.

Michael Walker:
Who it's like the music is just in their DNA.

Keatly Haldeman:
Yeah, yeah. My son Liam he's eight now and when he was three or so I could just see he was frustrated because he had this music in him and he wanted to be able to speak musical language whether he's tapping on a box or he's humming something or he'd sit down on a piano.

Keatly Haldeman:
But he didn't have the technical skills to get it out, but it was just welling within him. And it was right around that time, we actually have a slogan for Riptide, there is music in me, and he was the inspiration for that because I could just see there's music in this kid.

Keatly Haldeman:
And I look at my other son, Ben, who's amazing but he doesn't have music in him, and it's very interesting to see both sides. He doesn't have those musical ideas that are just manifesting within him and Liam does, and I do and I could see that in you and I see that with the creators that we work with.

Keatly Haldeman:
It's just yeah you've got this spark. It's like the Iron Man power source that's just like spouting musical ideas out and hopefully you can grab them or you can record them or you can get them out in whatever instrument or medium is your chosen medium. But these ideas just flow.

Michael Walker:
Yeah dude. I love that so much and it's the idea of yeah, the channeling of that musical energy through you and I know a lot of people, our listeners right now probably really relate to this journey of kind of starting out and feeling and having that in them. It's in their DNA, it's in their blood. It's music.

Michael Walker:
And then it can be really challenging with the state of the music industry and the people and their surroundings who maybe did get a real job or this isn't a real viable career path.

Michael Walker:
What I love about your story is how I think a lot of people who've experienced that they've tried to do something else and then they kind of realize, "Man, that's not my passion. I want to do something related to music."

Michael Walker:
What you just shared was this story about you kind of going through that same journey and then ultimately finding a way to align your passion for music with something and have huge success doing it as well, which is awesome and I just think it's really inspiring for me and hopefully for everyone who's listening to us right now as well.

Michael Walker:
So, next question for you is I know you have a ton of experience now in this realm especially with licensing to TV film, video games and you probably see a lot of submissions from artists who are looking for opportunities in this world and you've probably seen a lot of common mistakes and patterns between what artists are doing.

Michael Walker:
So, what are some of the biggest mistakes or biggest challenges that you see when artists first come to you?

Keatly Haldeman:
Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. I think it's going to sound harsh, but no one needs your music and no one cares about your sort of from day one, right? There's just so much music out there, there's so many artists, there's so many composers.

Keatly Haldeman:
The kind of music that's popular today for the most part is music that an individual person can make on their own with very limited equipment, which means that a lot of people are doing it, which means there's a huge amount of content that's just out there in the world.

Keatly Haldeman:
So, I think that's just from a philosophical standpoint, understanding where you sit in the grand scheme of things, and then your approach stems from how you feel about things.

Keatly Haldeman:
I get a lot of people who say, "I make music in all kinds of different styles, please take a listen." It's just ... I don't know, that's not interesting. I don't need music, right? I need amazing, extraordinary, unique music.

Keatly Haldeman:
I need music that inspires. I need something that when I hear it and when I send it to people or my team sends it to music supervisors, that there's an instant wow factor. That this transcends the noise, this transcends all the okay music out there.

Keatly Haldeman:
I had someone one time say, "Hey, my music is pretty good." Pretty good? Pretty good doesn't cut it. It's got to be amazing, it's got to be incredible, it's got to be just like a holy shit moment.

Keatly Haldeman:
And of course it's a fine line between bragging and being overconfident and just having a true understanding of how great your music is.

Keatly Haldeman:
And then so I guess the second part of that is understanding, it's having a reality check and doing your homework and really hearing how your music compares to other music that might be in a similar space production wise, song quality wise, lyrically and then also quality is totally a judgment call.

Keatly Haldeman:
It could be an amazing song that just doesn't really work well for sync because of a lot of different elements that make it more challenging or less opportunities for this kind of music, even though it could be a really great song.

Keatly Haldeman:
So, I think that's it. I think it's understanding how to write a message that cuts above the noise and makes me or anyone who might see 10, I don't know, the company might see 100 of these in a week, right?

Keatly Haldeman:
And so that's low compared to what a music supervisor is going to see. A music supervisor might see 12,000 unsolicited pitches a week. So why is this music supervisor or me or anyone in my team going to take the time to listen to your ... click your link and check it out? Because no one owes you that, right? No one owes someone that we don't know the time and effort.

Keatly Haldeman:
It's your job to present value as quickly as possible so that it's worth the person's time that you're sending it to to give it a listen. And then it better be amazing once you listen to it, but you got to at least craft the pitch email to get to that point.

Michael Walker:
So, it's so good what you just said. It sounds like what you're saying is that nowadays there's both a blessing and a curse in a sense that there's this huge revolution that happened. We have the ability to record amazing ...

Michael Walker:
We have the capability of recording amazing music from a home studio, but because of that there's so much content, so much noise that you really have to figure out how are you going to cut through the noise and have that wow factor.

Michael Walker:
The analogy that it makes me think of is kind of like those memes that you see with the iceberg where it shows the iceberg it's just a little tip kind of sticking out and then you have everything underneath the surface.

Keatly Haldeman:
Right.

Michael Walker:
So it seems like there's so much stuff underneath the surface it's like it's so important to be able to cut through the noise and kind of have that tip of the iceberg content.

Michael Walker:
And so for everyone who's listening to this right now who ... A couple of things too. Another thing that you really dug into was how it's really important to focus on delivering value and presenting things in a way that's focused on making it as easy and presentable and valuable for the supervisors and other people, as possible as opposed to just being entitled and not having clarity. Like, "Here's my link, listen to this."

Michael Walker:
So a couple of things, follow up questions from that, one, what makes a really great pitch or a really great ... If someone is going to deliver music to you, let's just imagine, I know this isn't always the case, but let's imagine that they have that amazing quality music and not just from their own standards but from they have the song that's really, really good.

Michael Walker:
What's the best way, what are some of the biggest mistakes with those pitches that they make and what are your favorite kind of things to receive and what does that process look like?

Keatly Haldeman:
Sure. Well I will say first off a pitch is always going to better received from somebody who knows somebody, a referral pitch.

Keatly Haldeman:
That's not always possible of course, if you don't know anyone who knows me and you're trying to get to me, that's not going to work.

Keatly Haldeman:
I tend not to check out too many unsolicited emails just because of time issues also. There are all kinds of landmines out there with rights issues and different things. So you want it come from a trusted source in some capacity.

Keatly Haldeman:
All that said, I certainly have listened to unsolicited emails. I know everybody else has too. When I was first getting started I was pitching my band to music supervisors and that's how I figured out music for picture and doing all that and then I started representing other artists because I got opportunities to pitch more music than what I had available with my own different band and then everything just kind of grew that way.

Keatly Haldeman:
So, a cold pitch does work for sure. Step one is know your audience. Know who you're sending it to, do your homework, do your research. What does this person like personally, what kind of music does this person use or need? In the case of a music supervisor it's going to be the specific TV shows or video games or ads that they work on and listen to that music and pitch accordingly.

Keatly Haldeman:
For someone like me, Riptide, that is working with a lot of different artists, styles of music and all that, it's a similar thing, there's just a broader potential genre base or style of music that we might need.

Keatly Haldeman:
But still check out the other artists that we're working with, what's the caliber of the artist, where do you fit in, what kind of music, did someone specialize in something, check out some of the past placements we've done.

Keatly Haldeman:
Every music company that I can think of has some public profile of the placements that they've had. So, if you listen to that and then you think your music stacks up or your music fits a certain thing, then use that.

Keatly Haldeman:
Have some kind of personal touch in there. Show me that you've done your homework. "Hey, I could see when you placed this song in this trailer, I make music like that." And then describe the music. "It's big, epic, hiphop-based, orchestra or electronic hybrid with a rapper and some epic female vocals."

Keatly Haldeman:
I'm going to open that email if you send that to me, right, because, a, it shows me that you know what we need. That's not that easy to get and if you can do it well, then you're somebody that I'm going to want to talk to.

Keatly Haldeman:
If it's, "I make hiphop beats, please listen," which is what comes a lot of the time. I don't need more hiphop beats, random hiphop beats, tell me more about your hiphop beats. "They're peace mode hiphop beats that take you through a journey with big rises and drops and perfect for a video game trailer." Okay, now you got my attention.

Keatly Haldeman:
And then if I listen and you're great, okay. Maybe we can have a conversation about that. I think that said, it's being more specific and using the right kind of descriptions. You need to know what I want to hear, that's your job, do your homework, you can figure it out, you can find it. There's public information everywhere.

Michael Walker:
Awesome, cool. So one before you even start reaching out to people, it's super important to do your research and figure out are they a good fit for your music style?

Michael Walker:
Are they someone who's looking for your type of music and is going to appreciate that type of music and also acknowledging the fact that like anything, like any sort of business a lot of it you're going to be benefited if you have a network of people that you know that you trust and you have referrals.

Michael Walker:
That's just me, a much easier way than reaching out to someone completely cold. That being said, if you're starting out and everyone starts out in the same way. We don't necessarily have all of those connections or all of those things starting out.

Michael Walker:
So maybe it's just a matter of doing a bunch of research and making a big spreadsheet of all the different possible contacts that you could reach out to and reaching out to five a day and doing your research, running a personalized message and making it as clear as possible and easy.

Michael Walker:
Presenting in a way where it's all focused on benefiting them and is exactly what they're looking for as opposed to just not really giving people details and it be a little bit more vague and being a little bit more me, me, me as opposed to really doing your research and focusing on them.

Keatly Haldeman:
Yeah, that's it. It's not about you. Of course it's about you because it's your music and you're sending it so then you don't need it to be any more about you. It's about the person you're sending it to, what is going to benefit them by listening to your music and make that very clear and make it easy too.

Keatly Haldeman:
They're just some technical things. Two days ago somebody sent me cold a WeTransfer link. I don't want a WeTransfer link. Now you're going to make me download the music, and open it up in iTunes or whatever.

Keatly Haldeman:
That means I can't do it on my phone easily because it's going to be a zip file that then I have to unpack it and then listen to it.

Keatly Haldeman:
I'm not going to listen. It's not going to happen. Now if it's someone we're already working with and they're delivering content to us it's a fine delivery platform.

Keatly Haldeman:
But as a cold pitch, make it streaming. Sound Cloud is a great option, there are other options. But it's got to be easy.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So not including the file as an attachment, not concluding as a WeTransfer link. Just making it streamlined as possible and just thinking about the person on the receiving end. How can you make this as straightforward and easy and beneficial to them as possible.

Michael Walker:
That seems just like a ... I've interviewed a lot of amazing people now and fundamentally success in all these different domains is focused on that one principle of less about me, me, me and more about focusing on how can I contribute, how can I frame this in a way that really benefits the other person as much as possible.

Michael Walker:
And it's almost kind of counterintuitive that the best way that you can get the most value for yourself is by turning outward and really focusing on providing value for other people.

Keatly Haldeman:
Yeah, that's right.

Michael Walker:
Cool, nice.

Keatly Haldeman:
And that's not unique to music by the way. If you look at any kind of advertising or any kind of marketing, it's how does this make me feel if I use this product, right?

Keatly Haldeman:
Makeup, it's going to make me feel beautiful and make me feel more confident. Or coca-cola, it's going to make me happy. And so all of these when you watch the commercials and one is smiling and laughing when they're drinking a coke, right?

Keatly Haldeman:
And so then I think if I'm going to go, if I buy a coke maybe I'm going to be a little happier. And then when I drink the coke, I'm a little happier because I remember the commercial. And hey, it tastes good and it's a little sugary, so it's good.

Keatly Haldeman:
So, it's the same thing. It's not ... Coke isn't coming out and saying, "Please buy Coke, we really want you to guy Coke. It would be so great if you supported Coke right now." It's, "Look how much we're giving you if you buy a Coke. We're giving you all this joy and happiness."

Keatly Haldeman:
So, it's the same concept and that needs to come from your music too and your pitch about your music.

Michael Walker:
So good, yeah. One question that I have is in terms of that in particular, providing the most value for you guys and for music supervisors, I'm sure there's common patterns or certain needs that the music, the vibe of the music and the energy that you're kind of looking for and maybe there's a supply and demand thing or maybe there are certain types that are important.

Michael Walker:
But what are some of the biggest patterns that you've seen if someone listening to this right now is interested in writing music that has huge sync potential, what are some pointers in terms of the vibe of the songs?

Keatly Haldeman:
I sort of boil everything down to the energy and the attitude. And fundamentally just understanding why video creators need music in their productions. It is to help move the picture along, that's the reason.

Keatly Haldeman:
So, what moves picture along is something with forward moving energy, and that can be intense forward moving energy, it can be subtle forward moving energy, but it's something that's moving along.

Keatly Haldeman:
If you're listening to music and you feel this sort of laid back vibe that's like sort of you're chilled out in your seat, there are less opportunities for that than if when you're listening to the music you feel a sort of pulling you along.

Keatly Haldeman:
And there are technical ways to do that. You have syncopated rhythms and matching beats and those kinds of things. But really it doesn't come down to a specific genre or production style or anything, it's just what is that energy and what is that vibe.

Keatly Haldeman:
Then the other side is attitude and there are certain kinds of attitudes that there's just a lot of opportunity for. So, a bad ass swagger, cool, sassy, confident, and sort of put those all in the same general camp. Those there are a huge amount of opportunities for that all over the place.

Keatly Haldeman:
And then the other attitude is fun, feel good, party. Appeals to a wide audience. Family-friendly, that kind of a thing. But puts a smile on your face basically, celebratory.

Keatly Haldeman:
It's however many keywords and descriptors you can think of, but that fits pretty squarely in another bucket. And then there's one other bucket and that's inspirational and anthemic emotional tags at the heart string, that kind of a thing.

Keatly Haldeman:
Yes there are exceptions to every rule, of course. But that's we sort of trickled it all down to those three basic camps. And that can be any time period, it can be any genre of music, it can be anything. It really doesn't matter.

Keatly Haldeman:
It's just does it fit squarely into one of those camps or does it actually even combine some of those and that's when you just have it sync in.

Michael Walker:
Hey, what's going on guys? Super quick intermission from the podcast to tell you about a special bonus that we've created for you.

Michael Walker:
So, basically we're taking everything that Keatly has learned through 47 million dollars in sync placements working with Apple, Nintendo, BMW, and all these different companies and to crystallize it into a free workshop for you.

Michael Walker:
And essentially what we're doing right now at this moment, giving you a bit of a sneak peek, is that we're creating a beta launch for a new course that eventually is something that we're going to be able to offer to musicians because it's going to be super valuable.

Michael Walker:
But even probably more valuable in the short term is that we're going to be doing this as part of an interactive beta launch. And so we're looking for few artists to mentor as part of that initial group.

Michael Walker:
And so if that sounds like something you'd be interested in being a part of, then if you click on the link in the description, then there's going to be a workshop you can sign up for, it's going to be interactive, it's going to be amazing.

Michael Walker:
So, go ahead and sign up for that workshop right now and let's get back to the podcast.

Keatly Haldeman:
And then we've got a couple of these where it does have this feel good vibe, it's going to be feel good horns but it's got this really cool, badass trap production, let's say.

Keatly Haldeman:
And so you feel cool when you're listening to it because it's got this hiphop back beat, but it's also got this fun horns on the drop and a couple of these songs we've licensed 30, 40 times individual songs for big commercials, Apple ads and trailers and all kinds of stuff.

Keatly Haldeman:
And these aren't massive household names, it just has the right element and the lyrically it's got a universal message. That's a really important thing too is have a universal message with your lyrics. You get too specific and it pigeonholes the song.

Keatly Haldeman:
So, you're talking about your dog named Spat versus just your best friend, you're going to have a lot more opportunities talking about your best friend. You might write a song about your dog and it's your best friend, but rather make it more universal than specific.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Yeah, that's some really good stuff there. And like you said, there's always exceptions to rules, but there's patterns, right, and the same things come up again and again and you have a lot of experience saying what the need is for the people who are using these songs and they're typically trying to present, they're trying to move forward the story.

Michael Walker:
And so having a forward driven progression that kind of pulls you in is really important and specifically in terms of the attitudes of the songs.

Michael Walker:
And it's funny, as you were describing these tons of examples kind of pulling up. When you're talking about the swagger and the confidence, it just kind of makes you ...

Michael Walker:
The confidence of it like Uptown Funk for example is the first one. Our two year old son whenever we play that song he'll get up and start grooving around.

Keatly Haldeman:
Yeah.

Michael Walker:
And it has that vibe to it.

Keatly Haldeman:
Uptown Funk is a great example of feel good but also cool and confident. So it actually ticks off both of those boxes and that's why that was such a massive sync hit, for sure.

Keatly Haldeman:
And Imagine Dragons is pretty square in the badass swagger vibe. But they own that vibe. And they do breakdown why that works really well. They have the hiphop production style with the rock vocals and that stomp clap kind of production. You combine that together and it's ...

Keatly Haldeman:
I'm always surprised still that the stomp clap thing goes so much. But that's been going strong for 15 plus years, probably longer than that. But we still do really well with that kind of music.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, yeah. It has that anthemic feel to it for sure, especially Imagine Dragons and another stomp clap I'm thinking of Queen, We Will Rock You, you met in the stadium.

Keatly Haldeman:
Yeah, that was the original, yeah for sure.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. Cool. The confidence, swagger, kind of upbeat, it makes you feel good and have a bit of that confidence as a good vibe. And then just in general just feel good, family-friendly, celebratory is a good vibe.

Michael Walker:
And then the third one was you said what? Anthemic and makes you feel ... Could you describe that third one a little bit more?

Keatly Haldeman:
Yeah. Think of Sigur Rós or think of Bon Iver or think of the old folk stuff where it's this really strong emotional, it still moves you along. It still has this energy that moves.

Keatly Haldeman:
It's tags at the heart strings as a good way to think about it. And there are all kind of different styles. It could be orchestral and related to a trailer or it could be this folk thing or it could be a singer-songwriter type of sound or it could be a piano vocal, these kinds of things too.

Keatly Haldeman:
But what do they all have in common is this emotional grab. It's sort of like it puts you in this emotional space and that might be an inspirational emotion.

Keatly Haldeman:
I say the anthemic side of things because it's that ultimate inspiration moment because it usually starts off kind of slow and then builds to this massive crescendo and what is the feeling that this music is imparting on you.

Keatly Haldeman:
That's another thing to think about when you want to create music for sync or just assess whether your music has a lot of opportunities for sync is the emotion that your music gives to people, is that a common emotion that a film maker or a visual media producer needs to impart on the audience because that's the point of the music. It's an emotional creator.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's interesting too that as you describe that, I get ... I'm feeling the feelings that the music imparts and I think a lot of people listening to us maybe can have that same, they can relate with that or there's ...

Michael Walker:
Because the music, that's what music is and what it does it generates ... It helps us get in tune to feel those emotions and speaks to people in a way that a lot of times language just doesn't really go up to the task.

Michael Walker:
And so it sounds like what you're saying is that really keeping in mind that success with sync really the end user is going to be the people who are creating these stories in the videos.

Michael Walker:
And so specifically they're looking for music that's going to be resonate with the emotions that they're trying to instill in the viewer. And so therefore, if you're going to have massive success in that, then you think about what are the emotions that people are looking to instill in the end watcher or the viewer of the content, and then gear content towards that so you can be as valuable as possible to the whole system.

Keatly Haldeman:
Yeah, that's exactly right. A lot of people will ask me, "Hey, what kind of music ... What genres are you looking for right now?" We're never looking for any genre. It's not about the genre, it's about the mood, the vibe, the emotion, the attitude.

Keatly Haldeman:
And then how any individual artist or creator configuration interprets that, that's what's exciting. That's what gets me passionate about music still even though I've been doing this for a while is the different ideas that people have.

Keatly Haldeman:
Everyone is going to interpret that concept of badass, swagger, cool in a different way. And I was joking around the stomp clap thing before because it's a little bit of an eye roll at this point because it's how many ways can you do that stomp clap thing again because it's the same thing over and over again.

Keatly Haldeman:
It works over and over again, so it's like, all right, if you can get that different guitar tone or if your lyrics can be different, or can you combine that with hiphop, that's pretty interesting.

Keatly Haldeman:
And so there are all these different ways to interpret it. But I'm waiting for someone to interpret that in a different way. Beastie Boys did badass, swagger, cool completely unique. They're one of my favorite groups of all time.

Keatly Haldeman:
And Imagine Dragons kind of did it first and then a lot of people tried to copy that, so that was really interesting when they came out. But how can people do that attitude different. Eminem has done it, Jay Z, Kanye. It's all the same thing, it's all that same ...

Keatly Haldeman:
At least on a male side it's this masculine energy. When women do it it's the confident, sometimes it can lean more sassy but it's all toward the same end. It's this very confident attitude.

Michael Walker:
All about that bass, no treble.

Keatly Haldeman:
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Michael Walker:
That was something I was thinking about.

Keatly Haldeman:
100% same thing, exactly the same thing.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. That was so good. That was like a my track moment. You hear all the time people, "What genre, what genre." And it's like it's not about the genre, it's about the mood.

Keatly Haldeman:
Mood.

Michael Walker:
And it's about the vibe, the energy. That's so good.

Keatly Haldeman:
That's right, and I'll tell you no genre is the best genre. Where you're hearing though, "Wow, what is that? That's amazing." Someone just sent me, an artist we're about to sign is doing live guitars over trap beats with kind of rock vocals and it's so interesting.

Keatly Haldeman:
It's such a ... They've figured out how to take a current trend and do something completely unique over it and it's amazing, I love that.

Michael Walker:
That's awesome and I think that's really good, a kind of clue or a pointer too as well in terms of ... I've heard a lot about this idea in terms of not just music but just viral tendencies with social media content and things that really go viral that reach the masses that they tend to have an element, a strong element of familiarity of what's kind of trending right now.

Michael Walker:
So it's really like in line with the wave that's kind of crusting right now. But then it has an element of a twist or unique kind of diversions. So it sounds like what you just mentioned right there is like part of it was they have this element of that familiarity and that current.

Michael Walker:
But then also kind of ways off the path in a way that's interesting, unique, and you're like, "Whoa, that kind of strikes me in an interesting way."

Keatly Haldeman:
Music that can define a genre or create a new genre is you struck gold, you've found this, I don't know, new philosophy. I don't know. It's amazing. That's what we're always hunting for, that's what everyone's hunting for.

Keatly Haldeman:
Everyone in the ... Not every person in the world of course, but it's new ideas. People want to hear new ideas, people want to hear a fresh interpretation of an emotion, of a feeling, of a vibe. So not copy cat stuff. Really being unique and interesting.

Michael Walker:
That's awesome. [Inaudible 00:39:57] I think it was Chris Bradley who was a friend I was interviewing and she was like, she hears it again, "What people what they're looking for is something that sounds like everything else, but it doesn't sound like everything else." So it sounds like that same kind of thing.

Michael Walker:
It resonates, it has that familiarity but it also is something a new idea that strikes. One thing that came to mind is that it's kind of like when two people have a baby and that baby ... I think we might have talked about this briefly when we talked a week ago.

Michael Walker:
But the baby comes out and it has its own energy and movements and it's going to be its own human being. But it's definitely going to have those genetics and it's going to have those pieces of the father and the mother.

Michael Walker:
So maybe one way to think about it for anyone who's listening to this right now and who's kind of wondering how do I strike that? How do I hit that? How do I create that tip of the ice content iceberg that's going to cut through the noise and how can I reach as many people as possible?

Michael Walker:
Maybe a good place to start is thinking about how can we combine two different things that haven't necessarily been combined but they're going to mesh well together so the baby that comes out of it is both something that's new but is also born out of this current wave.

Keatly Haldeman:
Yeah, look. I think it's a great place to start. It's all about experimenting. I do think that is the easiest way or the best way to be unique and stand apart from the noise.

Keatly Haldeman:
But that said, if you do folk music incredibly well, a traditional kind of folk music and you just are the best of the best, there's a market for them, there's an audience for that of course.

Keatly Haldeman:
I think the old folk movement has been really interesting because it took a traditional sound and song writing style and all of that and then added these more modern alternative production elements to it and then once you do that that's just opens up the door.

Keatly Haldeman:
Now you have an unlimited sound palette still rooted in this folk sound. Electronic music pop production, hiphop production mixed with any kind of organic music is very interesting.

Keatly Haldeman:
And also again, just you have unlimited possibilities when you do that and so you don't have to just take EDM and do something with it. You can just take elements of, "Oh, that's a cool thing, there's a drop, let's make a rock song with a drop. Oh, that's interesting. Or I hate drops. That's terrible. Fine, don't do that."

Keatly Haldeman:
But let's take that hiphop back beat and try to do something with it. So I don't know. Yeah, I think nothing is unique today. There's so much music that has been created. There's only so many notes and codes that you can play with. So it's how do you then mix it in.

Keatly Haldeman:
It's like cooking, right? Most of the spices that are available, are available but it's the combination of those spices. It's how long are you going to marinate the meat. It's how long are you going to cook it. It's how are you going to cook it. Are you going to cook it in the oven or on the skillet, all these different things.

Keatly Haldeman:
It's really all towards the same thing. You're making cooked chicken but how many different kinds of chicken have you had. Tons of. It's always different and I'm a terrible cook. So every time I make chicken even if I make it the same way it always tastes different. But yeah, I think it's the same thing with music.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. All right man. Well hey this is ... it's been a lot of fun. I've gotten goosebumps probably six or seven times. It's been like listening to ... It's like a bunch of really good music on repeat, same kind of feelings.

Michael Walker:
So thanks so much for taking the time to be here and to share your experience, what you've learned with everyone that's listening right now. It's awesome.

Michael Walker:
Normally this would be the point where I would ask where can people go to learn more from you or kind of connect more. I guess we can still ask that in terms of Riptide music and things. But we also have kind of a little ace up our sleeves that I want to introduce here after as well.

Michael Walker:
But for anyone that's listening to us now who wants to learn more about Riptide or wants to connect more with you, where do you recommend that people learn more?

Keatly Haldeman:
Sure, yeah. You go to Riptidemusic.com and check us out there. We're on Instagram, @Riptidemusicgrp. We're Riptide Music Group. I'm at @KeatlyHaldeman on Instagram and yeah.

Michael Walker:
Cool, all right. Sounds great. So you can go check out Riptidemusic.com and connect through there and sort of the normal social media platforms.

Michael Walker:
One thing that I'm really excited to introduce or to share with everyone that's listening right now is that Keatly and Modern Musician and my business partner Luke really have started developing a relationship and have started thinking about how can we ...

Michael Walker:
Because Keatly has so much huge wisdom and experience with this world and are working with some of the biggest businesses and movie trailers and video games and essentially has a huge asset in terms of experience to be able to share with artists like you who are listening to this who are basically wondering how can we ...

Michael Walker:
We have this music in our DNA. We have it in our blood. How can we express it and share with as many people as possible.

Michael Walker:
And sync is just a huge opportunity for a multitude of reasons. And so us with Modern Musician for a while it's not really our main forte. What we focus on is how do you put your music in front of new fans who are going to listen to it and develop an audience so that you can connect with people who are enjoying the music.

Michael Walker:
But the licensing world is such a huge opportunity, one, in terms of having a business and having a sustainable music career so you can invest more into it and create better quality music, reach even more people.

Michael Walker:
But that's something that to be honest, we just really don't have a whole lot of experience with that. That's not really what we focus on. It's not what I do with my band.

Michael Walker:
Keatly on the other hand has a huge, an avalanche of experience and so we've been talking about getting together and crystallizing it into more of a training, a more in-depth training. We've been able to go and cover some really good ground, I think, in this interview.

Michael Walker:
But with more time we can really flesh out these gems that you've learned through probably tens of thousands of hours of experience now and sharing those with artists.

Michael Walker:
So, all that being said, right now, at this moment, we're kind of crystallizing this and fleshing together this training for you guys. And what we'll do is in the link to this episode, if you click on the link on the description to go sign up for the workshop, then that's going to be like this conversation on steroids and fleshed out even more.

Michael Walker:
That's going to be hugely valuable for you, specifically if you've been listening to this and you're like-, "Wow, that's awesome. I want to learn more about the sync world and about how to do that successfully." Then go ahead and click on the link on the description, you go sign up for that and I'm really excited dude. This is going to be awesome.

Keatly Haldeman:
Yeah, me too. Yeah, I think it's going to be fun, definitely.

Michael Walker:
Cool. Well again man, thanks so much for taking the time to be here today and to share what you've learned. And looking forward to doing this training coming up soon.

Keatly Haldeman:
Yeah, no it's my pleasure. Really, really good to talk with you and I'm looking forward to sharing what I know and helping out as much as I possibly can.

Michael Walker:
Hey it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today.

Michael Walker:
And if you want to support the podcast then there's two ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe then I'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends on your social media, tag us. That really helps us out. And third, and best of all, you leave us an honest review that's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take their music carer to the next level.

Michael Walker:
The time to be a modern musician is now and I look forward to seeing you all on the next episode.