Katie Zaccardi:
Know what your goal is, know what you're working towards. Your goals and your priorities are always going to shift and change as you grow in your music career, but at any given time, you shouldn't be working on 50 projects, you should be focusing on one, maybe two, but really one core thing that you're focused on. And again, it might take time, it might feel like it's moving slow and you're watching other people achieve the things that you want to achieve someday. That's okay, stick with it because you will get there.

Michael Walker:
It's easy to get lost in today's music industry, with constantly changing technology and where anyone with a computer can release their own music. I'm going to share with you why this is the best time to be an independent musician, and it's only getting better. If you have high quality music but you just don't know the best way to promote yourself so that you can reach the right people and generate a sustainable income with your music, we're going to show you the best strategies that we're using right now to reach millions of new listeners every month without spending 10 hours a day on social media. We're creating a revolution on today's music industry, and this is your invitation to join me. I'm your host, Michael Walker.

Michael Walker:
All right. Today, I'm here with Katie Zaccardi. Katie is a songwriter, a music career coach who really has a lot of expertise around the inner game. She's helped hundreds of musicians, music teachers, music coaches grow their careers while at the same time reducing the amount of overwhelm, self doubt, burnout that comes with that. Certainly, I think the question that we want to focus on today is really, how do you create the success that you're aiming for without necessarily sacrificing your wellbeing at the same time? Katie, thanks so much for taking the time to be here today.

Katie Zaccardi:
Thank you so much for having me. I hope we can unpack that loaded question.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. There's certainly a lot of stuff to dig into there. That's the crux of life and achievement as a whole is, how do you balance the achievement part of it? The go-go, wanting to get somewhere and the fulfillment that comes from that, but also not neglecting the experience along the way and enjoying life as is. So I'd love to hear a little bit about your story if you want to share an introduction from anyone listening to this right now, how did he get started in the work that you're doing now?

Katie Zaccardi:
Absolutely. So I was a classic theater, music kid growing up, so music's always been a huge part of my life. And I started writing songs in high school, playing piano, guitar. And when I was thinking about going to college, my mom was always like, "You know what? You can go for whatever you want, but I think if you want to do music, you should study music business because you don't ever want to get screwed over. You want to know what you're doing and be able to handle yourself." So I did. So I went to NYU for music business, and there I officially started my indie artists career. I played shows, release an EP, did the whole press thing, crowdfunding campaign, pretty much like everything that an indie artists does when they're getting started, while I also, obviously, had the formal education there and did a bunch of internships.

Katie Zaccardi:
The last couple of years of college, I started really experiencing a lot of anxiety. And when I graduated, I was still experiencing anxiety, and it took me like eight months to actually land a job. So I was in this interim period waiting to see what was going to happen, feeling really frustrated. And the strategy part of me was like, "If I was teaching yoga right now, I could be making some extra cash on the side." I had a job that I was able to keep after college, but I was trying to be a little business minded there and think like, "How can I make some extra money?" And yoga was something that had helped me a ton so far in my anxiety journey up until that point. And so taking it to the next step really intrigued me. So I did, and I did my yoga teacher training.

Katie Zaccardi:
And then shortly after that, pretty much in like divine timing, I ended up landing a job in music publishing, which I worked in for several years before I started my business. But that was really the start of the momentum that eventually led me to quit my job to become a wellness coach. And that's where I started coaching, was in wellness because I had gone through my own journey of dealing with anxiety, not feeling like I had any support or help having to overcome it myself, doing the thing of working like a million jobs all at once. Because when I graduated, I was teaching yoga, I was working full time, I was doing the artist thing.

Katie Zaccardi:
I was also working with a nonprofit called Women Crush. And so I basically had to figure out how to overcome stress, how to manage time, how to make everything you want happen without feeling like your life is falling apart underneath you. Eventually, it got to the point where I was like, "I want to be able to help others do the same." Because I noticed so many women in music in particular that just felt massive amounts of self doubt, imposter syndrome, burnout, fatigue, feeling like there was only one specific way to make it in music and that was the hustle way. So I started my business as a wellness coach.

Katie Zaccardi:
And then pretty shortly after, about a year in, I pivoted to be a business coach and really focused on strategy with an emphasis on mindset, because I don't ever really want to let that part go. I think that mindset and wellness is so important to your success. If you're not taking care of either of those things, the strategy can be there, but if you can't implement it, if you literally physically can't show up, or if you are just simply experiencing so much self doubt or lack of clarity or any of those things, that's going to hold you back.

Michael Walker:
I love that. It's so good because I think that's something that all of us struggle with throughout our lives is challenges. And I find that we're doing something worthwhile, inherently, there's always that discomfort or there's the challenge with it. And so I think that, especially people who are high achievers and working really hard, can be prone to get burnt out and to struggle and to doubt themselves. So now that you have all this, you have a ton of experience now working with a lot of artists and I'm sure that you start to see some patterns in terms of the same common challenges or problems or mistakes that are coming up, what are some of the biggest challenges or mistakes that you see artists or music entrepreneurs making when they first get started?

Katie Zaccardi:
Yeah, I think that one of the biggest things that holds artists back is scarcity mindset, since we're on the topic of mindset and wellness. This idea that not enough room for everyone and ties into all these other things, comparisonitis, imposter syndrome, it all becomes related. But I think that so many artists right from the get go hold themselves back because they feel like, "Oh, there's not enough room," or, "I'm not good enough," or, "It takes a lot of money to make it in music so I shouldn't even bother with what I have right now." And so they self-sabotage because they're not giving themselves the chance to just meet them where they're at and move forward with the knowledge they have and with the talent that they have.

Katie Zaccardi:
But instead, they're thinking, "I should be there, "or, "I can't do it without this." And that, from a very baseline level, is one of the fundamental things that you really can experience at any point in your career of, "Oh, now I'm here, but I want to be there and I'm never going to get there," but that will hold you back. And again, get that self sabotage in so that you don't actually move forward in a way, or you don't ask for help, you don't seek out help, free help or paid help, whatever it is, you simply just don't seek out whatever it is that you need to actually move you to that next level because you think you'll never going to get there.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. What it reminds me of is the song by John Butler Trio, Better Than that goes, "Be better than that." I think that what you're describing is the core of achievements and being a human is, really that having a goal, having a vision, moving towards that. So I'm curious from your point of view, obviously there's a certain amount of tension or discomfort or goodness around having goals and setting challenges. And sometimes that struggle, it's about embracing the struggle and achieving it. Where's that sweet spot, do you think? Is there like a sweet spot where if you don't have enough of that, then it's like complacence or you're just feeling bored? How do you recommend that someone is able to navigate that and make sure that they are falling in their genius zone?

Katie Zaccardi:
Yeah. I like to think about it like a timeline, almost. A lot of people will just think, "I want to be a successful artist," or, "I want to get signed by a label", or, "I want to win a Grammy one day." And the leap from point A to that point B is just so drastic that sometimes it's hard to figure out what happens in that over middle period, how are you going to get there? And then that's where the stagnation comes or the burnout comes, because you're, "Let me just do everything possible," and then you're doing everything possible and you can't actually balance it.

Katie Zaccardi:
So setting goals is so important, to directly answer your question. I think it is a huge part of the momentum that you'll ever have in your artist career. And you also have to chunk the goals down and ask yourself, "Yes, I have my vision board, yes, I know what I want my life to look like, but if I can just look at the next month or quarter or year, whatever it is, what do I want to accomplish in this short, shorter timeframe? And what do I need to do in order to get there?" And then almost like brain dumping, "Here are some the things that I need to learn. Here's what I don't know. Here's what is holding me back because I feel like I can't do this or I don't know how to do this, and here's what I do know I have to do. Here's what is on my list of things I know I can accomplish," and then take those baby steps to get there.

Katie Zaccardi:
The key is to make sure that you're not putting too much on your own shoulders, and a lot of that comes down to expectations and ego. You want to make sure that your expectations aren't so huge that you are taking on too much or working too much or trying to make something happen in a timeframe that's unrealistic, basically that's what it comes down to. And it happens a lot because, especially lately in the world that we're in, instant gratification has become such a thing that we all have really just taken for granted. You can log on to TikTok and see videos and be entertained instantly, and they're short, and our attention spans are shorter.

Katie Zaccardi:
We're seeing people have success around us every day, and it makes it feel like whatever it is that you've set out to do, you want it tomorrow, you don't want to wait. And while that's a normal feeling, that can harm you if you're trying to actually make it happen in such a short period of time instead of looking at it as a long game and a long-term plan, because most likely, whatever your goals are, if you are a high achieving person, which probably are as an artist, it's going to take time and it's going to be really setting those foundational blocks. So know that it's okay if it's taking time, don't try to rush it just for the sake of rushing it, but instead, work smarter not harder.

Katie Zaccardi:
And with that being said, also know like when you have to do check-ins with yourself and when you have to delegate something, when you maybe have to hire a coach to help you, or you need to get a course to learn something that you don't know, know when you have to maybe just take tasks off your to-do list entirely or push them for later if they're just simply not a priority, and learn how to figure out like what your priorities actually are so that you can just better project manager, essentially, and be able to know, "These are the tasks that are going to actually move me forward in my music career, in my business, and these are the things that aren't."

Katie Zaccardi:
And for the things that aren't, we can either get rid of them or delegate them, but they're not as important. So that way, you can stay focused. And again, you're not doing all of the things. And the very last thing I'll add is that, it's really easy with social media to get in that zone of comparisonitis. Maybe your goal is, "I want to release an album," but you see someone else who's getting their songs placed in sync. And then all of a sudden, you're like, "Should I be doing sync? I need to start this now, I need to do this." And then you start, again, taking on all the projects. Know what your goal is, know what you're working towards.

Katie Zaccardi:
Your goals and your priorities are always going to shift and change as you grow in your music career. But at any given time, you shouldn't be working on 50 projects, you should be focusing on one, maybe two, but really one core thing that you're focused on. And again, it might take time, it might feel like it's moving slow and you're watching other people achieve the things that you want to achieve someday. That's okay, stick with it because you will get there.

Michael Walker:
So good. Yeah. There's a lot of goodness to unpack there. So it sounds like what you're saying is, in addition to having your big picture goal, it's really important to also be able to break down those bigger pieces into more manageable, achievable, tangible goals on a shorter timeframe, and those are a little bit less theorial and a little bit more of the things that you can really pay attention to, that are shorter, that are easier. And also just having a willingness to be patient, which can be difficult in today's day and age where there's so much happening so quickly, we're always plugged in and we're on social media, everyone's sharing the best version of themselves and everyone's has the best life ever, seemingly, that it's really important to learn how to dig deep and just stay on the path.

Michael Walker:
One analogy that comes to mind that I think that's so true in terms of looking at things and taking a longer-term approach, it seems like every person who's super successful, one of their core skills is this ability to have vision and to be able to extend their vision and early have to put it out in the future, but also to be smart about tracking their progress, making sure that they're moving the right direction. One analogy is planting a seed and letting it grow into a tree. And it sounds like what you're saying in terms of being patient is that we shouldn't, at the first sign, it's like we plant it, a few days later, "Oh, there's not a tree here. I need to dig it up and I need to fix it." So we keep digging enough to try to fix it when we got to nurture it.

Katie Zaccardi:
Or you're like, "Screw this tree, I'm done with it. I'm going to plant another tree over here and hope that this one grows in two days." And then it doesn't and then you move on to the next thing and then you're not actually making progress anywhere.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. That's so good. Can you talk a little bit about getting smart with structuring your projects and getting focused, setting priorities so you don't feel overwhelmed with 50 different things, but you have one or two things that you really go deep in. I'm wondering what process you have in terms of just organizing your daily life. Do you have a weekly review or how often do you reflect and set those goals and how do you keep track with those?

Katie Zaccardi:
I think my process, I've been doing it for so long, it's really refined itself. And so what I do, it almost doesn't take that much time or effort anymore because of that, which is great. So I'll sit down every Monday and actually structure my week in a specific way so that I can be most effective in the way that I'm working. So Mondays, I do admin work Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursdays, I do coaching calls, podcast interviews, recording, all that stuff where I'm talking basically. And then Fridays I call my magic day, so I don't schedule anything generally if I can avoid it, unless it's something that I'm actively choosing to schedule or just absolutely need to schedule for some reason.

Katie Zaccardi:
But generally speaking, I keep it open. And then on that day, I just allow myself to do what I need, whether I need a break or whether I need to play catch up or whether I have an idea that I want to let flow through, I let that happen on Fridays. So each Monday, I'm really sitting down and looking at my week of, what's on the plan for the projects that I'm working on? So for instance, right now I'm prepping for a launch of a program that I'm doing, and I'm going to sit down and say like, "All right, what needs to get done to make sure that this launch goes as planned? What's the highest priority on this list? Whether it's time sensitive, whether it is just I need to get this done to move this part of the project forward, what's highest priority? And then start to work on those.

Katie Zaccardi:
And I also schedule that out in my calendar. So I'll put in my calendar on Mondays, if it's not there already, like, "All right, I'm going to spend this chunk of time working on the sales page," or whatever it is that I'm doing. So I keep it pretty simple. And then once a month, I do a finance check-in as well. And I do smaller check-ins throughout the month, but once a month at the very beginning of the month, I do a formal one so I'm taking a look at all my finances, checking in with that. And on that day as well, I'll also do a goal setting check-in for the next month as a whole. So, "What do I want to accomplish? What am I launching? What are my income goals? What are some ideas or to-do list things that are coming to mind right now? And let me go ahead and schedule that out or get the ball rolling on those projects."

Katie Zaccardi:
People work in different ways, so some people might do well with a monthly check-in, some might need a weekly check-in that's a little bit more flushed out. I think you have a lot of people who will but like, "Look at your five-year plan and go to the one-year plan, and then go down to this." But I think things change so quickly. My 2021 has literally not gone how I thought it would go whatsoever, not one bit, not one single thing. And so I think that things are so fast moving these days that it's really important for you to just schedule regular check-ins with yourself and make sure you hold yourself accountable to those things, so that if something is changing or something's feeling off or something's going really well, you can have that time to just check in and see and see what that is and notice what that is and see how you can either change or continue on to get the results.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. Yeah. I've heard the quote before, something along the lines of, "The plans are useless, but planning is invaluable." I think that goes so well with what you're saying in terms of... Even a year ago or five years, if I looked at it 10 years ago, I never would have thought that I'd be here right now. I think most people, that's the same thing. It's like, 10 years ago, could you have predicted you'd be right where you are? So yeah, definitely super valuable planning, incredible thinking forward, projecting, but also having the ability to adapt. And it sounds like what you're saying is that, on the shorter timeframe, because it's a little bit closer, it gives you more ability to get feedback quicker.

Michael Walker:
You want to check in and see what works for you, maybe monthly, maybe weekly, see what feels good, but learn to adapt quickly. Yeah. I think one big challenge that again, basically all of us run into this at some point or another, is having discipline. And like we say we have this goal and we want to accomplish this thing, and for whatever reason, life gets in the way, the thing doesn't get done, it's challenging, it's scary. We don't do the thing. What are your thoughts around that idea of discipline? Because a lot of us, I think we know what we should be doing, "Oh, I should be getting good quality sleep. I should be exercising, I should be exercising eating well."

Katie Zaccardi:
You're just calling me out right now because I've abandoned my yoga routine and I'm like, "Okay, I need to do something about this."

Michael Walker:
Yeah, yeah. Again, this is just part of the human condition, I think, but it's a good thing to talk about. In your own life and experience, what have you noticed been some of the things that have really helped to create that discipline so the things that we "should be doing" are actually being done?

Katie Zaccardi:
Yeah. So I actually love the book, The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin. And I highly recommend reading that, but she also just has a quiz that will tell you which tendency you are. But this helps me get a lot of clarity. And even I use it with clients because it allows me to see like, how do you hold yourself accountable? So there's four tendencies, as the title suggests. And essentially, I think I'm a questioner. So that basically means that I will be accountable to myself and to others only when I feel it's appropriate. If the doctor says show up 10 minutes early to your appointment, and I think that's stupid because they're going to be running late anyway, I'm not doing it, I won't do it. But if I think it's something that I think is legit, then I'll uphold the expectation.

Katie Zaccardi:
There's people who are rebels, who they pretty much don't uphold any expectations. I think there's two more. One of them basically will uphold all expectations, and one of them will only uphold expectations for other people, but not for themselves. So, you knowing how you operate and how you uphold expectations is really helpful, because if you know that you're the type of person who is terrible at upholding expectations you've set for yourself, you might need an accountability buddy or a coach, or like a group that's going to help you stay on track and someone that you can report to or have a buddy system with so that you can stay on pace with those goals, you can make sure that you're staying accountable in a way that actually works for you.

Katie Zaccardi:
Some people don't need that at all, they're perfectly accountable to themselves. And some people, they maybe aren't accountable to others, so they don't work as well with a super structured... If you're in a band your band mate's telling, "You have to do this then, you have to do that then," if you're a rebel, you'll probably be like, "No, F off. Do not tell me what to do," but you're going to need to figure out a way to make it work for you, have it be your idea, have it be your initiatives or way that you like to do things to really help you get that momentum and really just want to stay accountable to what you're doing. So that book slash quiz is really helpful, I think, as a starting point, but getting to know yourself and how you work is a really crucial point for that.

Katie Zaccardi:
And like I said, I'm going through it now. I'm a coach and I talk about this all the time and I hold other people accountable. Generally, I can stay accountable to myself, but you will go through waves where you just fall out of routines with things. And I think that one of the best ways to get back into it is to make it fun. If you stop doing something or you can't bring yourself to do something, or you're really having trouble getting your tasks done, this is probably happening because you just don't want to do it. Why don't you want to do it? Because it's not enjoyable or is it takes time or whatever it is. So ask yourself, how can you make it more fun, more entertaining, easier, quicker, whatever those keywords are that are going to just make it a more enjoyable or easier experience for you to be able to get done.

Katie Zaccardi:
Because if you can take that burden off, then it'll make it a lot easier to just plow through it.

Michael Walker:
Oh, what's up, guys? A quick intermission from the podcast, so I can tell you about an awesome free gift that I have for you. I wanted to share something that's not normally available to the public, they're normally reserved for our $5,000 clients that we work with professionally. This is a presentation called Six Steps to Explode your Fan Base and Make a Profit with your Music Online. And specifically, we're going to walk through how to build a paid traffic and automated funnel that's going to allow you to grow your fan base online in a system that's designed to get you to your first $5,000 a month with your music. We've invested over $130,000 in the past year to test out different traffic sources and different offers to really see what's working best right now for musicians.

Michael Walker:
And so I think it's going to be hugely valuable for you. And so if that's something you're interested in, in the description, there should be a little link that you can click on to go get that. The other thing I wanted to mention is, if you want to do us a huge favor, one thing that really makes a big difference early on when you're creating a new podcast is if people click Subscribe, then it basically lets the algorithm know that this is something that's new and noteworthy and that people actually want to hear. And so that will help us reach a lot more people. So, if you're getting value from this and you get value from the free trainings, then if you want to do us a favor, I'd really appreciate you clicking the Subscribe button. All right, let's get back to the podcast.

Michael Walker:
I love that. So it sounds like what you're saying is that all of us behave differently when it comes to accountability and we have different things that are going to keep us on track. The Four Tendencies is a great book to dig into that and understand more about ourselves and how we can set up accountability for ourselves. But also just the learning, how to, if something's feeling boring or we don't really want to do it, then maybe it is just not fun, so we need to add some freshness to it. What that reminds me of is one of my mentors, Eben Pagan, has this idea called inevitability thinking. And it's such a smart idea. This has like completely changed my life around the idea of accountability.

Michael Walker:
It's the idea that basically you put things in place, you set up the circumstances so that the thing you want to have happen happens automatically and it's just what happens if you let go completely, you don't have any discipline. And one example that he shares is things like, let's say for example that you want to get in the habit of, I don't know, going upstairs and going to sleep by 10 o'clock every night, you want to start getting good quality sleep every night. Then to make it inevitable, he would say, "Okay, find an accountability partner and then give them a $5,000 check, tell them, "If I don't do it, then cash this check." Yeah. And then it's at that point of the night where like, "I don't know if I really want to go upstairs right now, I'm watching the show or whatever. Do I want that more than I want $5,000?" No.

Michael Walker:
And you're probably doing things like setting the timers in your phone to make sure you don't accidentally miss it or whatnot. I think it's a really powerful idea of making the thing you want to have happen the path of least resistance and adding a way more resistance to not doing it. At least that's one potential way to set accountability, although there might be a more less fun way of doing it than just make the original thing more fun too, as well.

Katie Zaccardi:
Make it painful, make yourself lose money if you're not doing it.

Michael Walker:
There you go.

Katie Zaccardi:
That would be the other direction.

Michael Walker:
It reminds me of a Tony Robbins, I think talks a lot about this idea of what motivates behavior. It's either we move towards pleasure and we move away from pain. And if can stack the odds for yourself so you can make the thing you want to do as pleasurable, so when you talk about making it fun, you make it much more fun and make the alternative a lot more painful, then naturally we're just going to do the thing.

Katie Zaccardi:
With that, you can also think about, what are you afraid of? And this is like a technique that you can use in terms of overcoming fears, but I think it works for accountability too, because if you're avoiding a task in your music career and you're just like, "Oh, I just don't want to do this," whatever. Think about, are you more like afraid of or okay with just not doing the task because it's annoying, or are you okay with sabotaging your career or not moving forward in your career because you didn't do this thing? The pain point there is so much bigger than you just doing this task for five or 10 or even an hour. So just do it.

Michael Walker:
That's powerful. Yeah. Getting leverage on yourself, really thinking out, sitting down and thinking about the worst case scenario that you want to avoid of not taking the action and then thinking of all the good things and writing down all of the benefits, all of the things. One thing you mentioned that early on... I love conversations like this because I think that this is really what it means to be a human, is to run into these issues and the things that happen no matter how successful we get. But one of the things I hear come up over and over again for all of us is this feeling of imposter syndrome. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on imposter syndrome and what is it and how can we overcome that in our own lives as we move towards our goals.

Katie Zaccardi:
Yeah. So imposter syndrome basically is feeling like you are a fraud or like you hacked the system, you made it far, you're not supposed to be here and everyone else around you is so much better than you. And all of those feelings that come up. I see it a ton, especially with women in music, but in general, it's happening a ton. The thing with imposter syndrome that you have to know is that it's never going to just disappear completely. I even recently had it where up-leveled in a way and I joined a mastermind, and it hit me where I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I'm feeling like I'm not good enough for this. What is this going to be like? Am I going to be the odd man out? Is this going to be weird?"

Katie Zaccardi:
It will hit you as you continue to grow, but the key... And I also had it when I got on TikTok recently, the TikTok challenge with a couple other coaches just as a fun thing to see who can grow on TikTok the most this month. And when I got on, I've been on TikTok and I had a TikTok, but I was not taking it seriously. And my algorithm was so not on music industry TikTok, no matter how hard I tried, I could not get there. I was on basically like marvel and TikTok which are two totally random things, but somehow converge. But I started this new account and I tried really hard, I'm like, "I'm only liking videos related to music, I'm getting there."

Katie Zaccardi:
So finally, I'm in the algorithm and I'm seeing the music industry videos, and it hits me after seeing five videos of artists or other coaches or publicists or whatever it is, saying, "Here's the tips that you need for this. And here's the five ways to do this." I'm thinking like, "Okay, this is actually a much bigger pool than I thought. It's not my small Instagram pool anymore it's not my small bubble. There's a ton of people on here doing something somewhat similar to me." And going back to where we started around the discussion of scarcity, imposter syndrome can come from many things, but in that moment for me, it was fully rooted in scarcity of I'm having this feeling that there's too many people on here, or there's a lot of people on here, and because of that, I will never be successful on here, or nobody cares what I have to say because there's already these people saying it already.

Katie Zaccardi:
And that's just totally a thought of scarcity. The reality is I have something valuable to say, I have a perspective that nobody else can offer, I have a way I say it that nobody else can offer. And as long as I just put myself out there, people will want to hear what I have to say, and I can be just as successful as the next person. And we can all be successful because it's not a competition of certain unlimited amount of likes, or a limited amount of even money that can go around to everyone. So from an artist perspective, it's the same thing, you might go on TikTok or just in your day-to-day life, you're like, "Argh, there's another artist who does something similar or who wrote a song about the same thing as me. And I just don't know if I can break through."

Katie Zaccardi:
You can, there is room for every artist out there. There's an unlimited need of music, there is unlimited fans, there is space for you, but whatever it is that's triggering that imposter syndrome, definitely needs to be looked at because it's probably a pattern that's appearing in other places, or it just needs recognition. But what it comes down to is there's room for you and you deserve to be wherever you are.

Michael Walker:
I love that. Thank you for sharing that, I know it's sometimes vulnerable to share the way that comes up, but again, it definitely comes up for all of us because there's so many people, especially in today's like we talked about a little bit, the face culture with social media, there's inherently, everyone's sharing the tip of the iceberg, the best things that are happening in their lives, and there's so much comparisonitis and things that are happening. And one thing that I'm curious about is it seems like one challenge that a lot of artists have is been that initial stage where they've invested into recording some music, they've honed their craft and they have something they feel proud of, but they haven't really built an audience at all yet, and they're just getting started.

Michael Walker:
Sometimes it seems there's almost this shame, or this fear of being embarrassed of the fact that they don't have a huge audience yet and not wanting to show up, not wanting to share it because they're afraid there's not going to be a lot of people engaging with them. So what are some of your thoughts for artists who are listening right now, or maybe they're at that point where they're just starting out and they haven't really built up a big tribe yet, and they're trying to overcome that?

Katie Zaccardi:
Yeah. That's super common. First of all, and let me just say, I'm happy to share my imposter syndrome stories because I want to make it known that first of all, it's not embarrassing, it's fine. It is what it is, like you said, it's something that we all experience. And as you see, I was able to recognize when it came up, notice what was happening and then get over it and move on from it. So it doesn't have to be this huge, big thing that takes over, especially if you're at the beginning of your career and you're thinking like, "Oh, I just need to get past this and it'll be fine." It's going to keep coming up, so get past it now and know, and then just keep pushing forward on that journey.

Katie Zaccardi:
And yeah, it's so common, I think, for artists to feel that embarrassment of, "I don't want to show up like I'm taking this seriously when I have five people following me. It's so embarrassing if people think that I think I'm like a hot shot, but nobody actually cares because that's what it feels like." But the thing is that when it comes to social media, I know what it's like. It feels very awkward when you're on your stories talking to literally no one, acting like everybody in the world is listening, but that is what you have to do to get started because you're not going to build an audience and then start showing up with good content. You're going to build an audience by showing up well and with good content.

Katie Zaccardi:
So even though it feels uncomfortable, that doesn't mean that's not a reason to not do it, or that's a reason to not do it, it means that, it's just stepping out of your comfort zone and that's good. That means that there's growth coming most likely, and that means that it's something you're going to get better with and it's going to become easier for you to do as you move on. So I think anyone who's experiencing that, you're not alone, literally every person has gone through that because it is weird. If there are people out there that were specifically making you feel uncomfortable, block them or remove them from your friend list.

Katie Zaccardi:
You can definitely create the environment that you want to create to make you more comfortable getting started, but know that it's not always going to be super comfy. It's not going to be warm and fuzzies and you feel confident all the time, that's just not how it goes. Sometimes you have to step out of your comfort zone to get good and to get better.

Michael Walker:
That's so good. Yeah. It sounds like what you're saying is that one, it's totally normal to feel that way in that a lot of times, the discomfort, it's actually, it's good, that's what happens when you're stretching yourself. What that reminds me of is that it seems like the people who have grown the most or the people who have become the most successful, almost have this character trait where it intentionally put them in situations that cause them to be discomfortable and cause them to grow, like you're saying with this mastermind.

Katie Zaccardi:
Yes. Exactly.

Michael Walker:
There is something like that peer group and who you surround yourself with is so important for stretching you to grow, because there's something that happens where you realize, "Oh, this is possible, first of all, this people are doing this and if they're doing it, why am I not doing it?" And it causes you to level up. By the way, that mastermind you're talking about, you're talking about the Sailboat Mastermind?

Katie Zaccardi:
Yes. And I was like, "I'm pretty sure you're in it."

Michael Walker:
Yeah. Chris and I are teaming up to run that together.

Katie Zaccardi:
Yeah. I'm excited.

Michael Walker:
I'm looking forward to it. That's going to be awesome. We're going to go on a sailboat. It's going to be cool.

Katie Zaccardi:
Yeah. And I feel like I'm like going to be the youngest in the group. It's all these people who I know have been in the industry coaching for a little bit longer than I have. So when I joined, I was like, "I'm a perfect fit for this." And also I'm feeling like, "Oh, snap, I'm really taking it to the next level. I have to hold myself accountable to taking it to this next level." So it's normal. It's normal to have all of those feelings of excitement and fear and stepping out of the comfort zone and working with people that you don't know, or some people that you don't know, it's normal, but it's usually you have to listen to your gut.

Katie Zaccardi:
And that's why I also put such a priority on practices like journaling, and meditation, or yoga, or walks, or whatever it is for you that allows you to create space in your brain because you do have to have some level of awareness and being able to listen to your gut to hear, is this a fear in my stomach telling me, do not do this thing, it's a terrible decision? Or is it just a fear that's saying, "Okay, this is exciting and it's something you've never done before, but it's going to be great"? Usually, it's that one, but make sure that you are taking the time to listen to your gut and not just jumping off cliffs because you're out of your comfort zone without a parachute.

Michael Walker:
One, congrats on stretching your comfort zone and joining, and I'm looking forward to that, it's going to be awesome. And yeah, I totally think that it's so important what you're saying in terms of the willingness to sit down and just notice the discomfort and to acknowledge it and to appreciate it and ask yourself, like, "Where is this coming from?" And I think you're right that probably 99% of cases, that fear is coming from something that isn't a real, like immediate, dangerous, not like a bear has just found his way into your house and so the mechanism is, "Oh, I need to hide and run away from this and run away." But it's usually some psychological fear, it has a message for you, but also it's, don't die, don't die, don't die. It's okay. Am I really going to die if...

Michael Walker:
I think it's like, "What's the worst possible thing that could happen in this situation?" And let's say everything goes terrible, what's the worst thing I can imagine happening? And if that happens, what would I do? At least for me, that's a question that I ask myself a lot when I feel that fear because it's totally normal the fear comes up, but then if you really break to, okay, what's the worst thing that could happen? And okay, if that does happen, then what would I do? Oh, it actually wouldn't be that bad, I guess I could deal with that.

Katie Zaccardi:
Yeah. Especially when you're investing, that's such an important question to ask. And it's becoming more common now, but I feel like there's still a lot of artists out there who have never invested in support before. I noticed, and I'm curious if you see the same, but artists immediately are like, gear, recording, even like press and publicists. And they'll throw so much money at that, but then not have any business skills, or any business acumen, or any support, or anything like that, which is what they really need to actually get the results from putting that thing out into the world. And so when you're investing in that part of it for the first time, it can feel really uncomfortable because it's not something you've done before.

Katie Zaccardi:
It feels like it makes sense to invest in recording because that's going to help you create the art, but it doesn't make sense to invest in a coach, or a program, or things like that. But those are sometimes, most often the things that will help you continue to grow, not saying recording doesn't, it does, but it's both situation. And when you're investing or doing something you've never done before, it can really give you that gut punch, but that is the perfect question to ask, what's the worst case scenario. I'm out some money, and I am in the same place I was before. Okay, at least I learned what not to do, and now I can figure out what to do, or what I like to do, or what doesn't work, and I can figure out what does work moving forward. But usually you're not going to end up in that worst case scenario, it's going to be better or best case that you could imagine.

Michael Walker:
100%. I think that the mindset around investing is like a core components of whether someone is going to be successful or not, is their ability to invest, to make smart investment decisions as well, because obviously there's different things you can invest in, but if you're investing in yourself, that's the thing that all of the most successful people do, is they're constantly investing in their own education and the right skill sets, the right tools they need to develop. And I think you're right that for a while, I think for musicians, there's a reason that there's this "starving artist syndrome." And it's because we have given away our power, I think in a lot of cases to these other people who are running the business side of things and the marketing.

Michael Walker:
And there's almost like this weird shame or like this feeling of, "Oh, if I'm making money with my music, then that's wrong, or that's greedy, or it diminishes the artwork." And I think what's happening now, and it's really a part of this movement, why we're having this conversation now and why we're working with the artists we're working with, is that there's this movement that's happening where musicians are reclaiming their power and they're realizing, "Wow, this marketing thing is actually a core part of the creative process, and it's about who I am. And it's about helping to reach as many people as possible. And I can do this myself, I don't need to rely on someone else to come save me and do all this stuff for me. In fact, I should be the one doing this."

Michael Walker:
Yeah, for sure, in terms of investments and investing, I've made some really scary investments in my own coaching, like in my mentors. One of the first investments I made when I started Modern Musician was a $12,000 investment in a coaching program. And I was about to be a dad, we just bought a house, and I didn't have $12,000 to invest.

Katie Zaccardi:
I remember my first one too, you're like, "Okay, please work. I really hope this works."

Michael Walker:
Yeah, for sure. And it was a huge leap of faith for me. I was about to be a dad and it was really like do or die. I needed to do it or else it was like, "Okay, I'm going to have to get a real job or something. I really need to figure this out." And it wasn't easy either, it's like either you make that, it's like throwing your hat over the fence. So I think that the value of the investment is that you're also more likely to show up and do the work, and get things done. The way that we invest in, it shows our values. What we spend our money on, shows, what do we value most? It's literally what the purpose of money is, it's like a value mechanism.

Michael Walker:
So whatever we spend the most money, that's what we value. Absolutely. I think it's just a core question to ask ourselves is, "Okay, what am I investing my time and my money in right now? And is that aligned and congruent with what my true values are of my highest self?"

Katie Zaccardi:
And thinking about so many artists, all they want is for someone to pre-save, listen, buy their merge, buy the tickets, support them, join their Patreon, give them money basically, and/or time, but also money. But then if you're that artist and you want people to be supporting you, but then when you think about supporting someone else you're like, "No, I do not have the funds for that." Or you're not willing to literally invest in yourself, you do not believe in yourself enough to invest in yourself, what does that say? Getting a little woo here, and we think of like the law of attraction or just connecting with the universe, again, very woo, but you need to be able to show up at the frequency that you want to be receiving things.

Katie Zaccardi:
And if you want things to come back to you, you've also got to be open enough to number one, let them come to you and also dish them out. And I'm not saying go out there and spend money you don't have, or put yourself at financial risk, but I'm just saying, what's one small thing that's out of your comfort zone that would make you feel like you're moving closer to the life that you want. Is it when you're at the store, and they say, "Oh, you want to round up?" Is it rounding up just because you can? Is it maybe like joining a course or buying the lowest level program from a coach that you know is going to help you move forward so that you can get there?

Katie Zaccardi:
It's small moves like that, it doesn't have to be investing even $12,000. It doesn't have to be that huge thing at first, but if you're not making small movements forward, then you're not making any movement. And so you need to be willing to just put yourself out of your comfort zone every day in whatever way possible. And eventually, you'll get there. Eventually you'll get to the place where you have more money to invest in the bigger program or whatever it is that you want to do. And also, I'm always an advocate for just thinking outside of the box. I think there's a lot of ways musicians can make money and get money that they're not always considering. When I did my first program, I think I put it on a zero APR credit card and I was like, "I'm just going to create my own payment plan for it and pay it off over time and trust that I make this money back." And I did.

Katie Zaccardi:
It's not always, oh, the most obvious solution or the easiest decision you're going to make, but sometimes you need to be able to think about, how am I going to get closer to the life of abundance, or freedom, or whatever it is that you're desiring.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. That's so important. And in a way, we talk about woo-woo and law of attraction or whatnot. One of my mentor's, Jeff Walker, I think he says, "I'm woo-woo compliant, I'm woo-woo compliant." And I love that.

Katie Zaccardi:
That's funny.

Michael Walker:
I am just finishing rereading the book, Think and Grow Rich right now by the third or fourth time. And that's one of the most valuable books that I've ever read. And a lot of it's about what we're talking about right now in terms of how everything starts with a thought. If you look around the room that you're sitting in right now at everything around you, if it's manmade, then it was all started with a thought. And also, even thought, okay, we're going there.

Katie Zaccardi:
We're going there, we're getting woo-woo.

Michael Walker:
Thought, it's a tangible thing. It's like an energy force, it's creation itself. It's like breath. And so even the things that we don't traditionally think of as thoughts, the earth, there's a certain energy to it. And I think thought is a very high energy channel that this energy can take, and the way that it can go between humans. And we literally like everything that run the room, everything that's man created, it's started out with thought. But nowadays, it's pretty amazing how quickly a thought can materialize into the actual thing, the gap between thought and reality is shortening, and maybe eventually, it'll live in some simulation with a brain place where we can think something, it just instantly happens, we just live in like a creative playground.

Michael Walker:
But the thing is, I don't know, a few thousand years ago, actually I'm terrible with history, so I don't know when the pyramids were made, but they started out with a thought.

Katie Zaccardi:
Many thousands I think.

Michael Walker:
And then it took so much time to do that. And also traveling across the world used to take so much time and now you can get on a plane. So I think the gap is shrinking, but still, everything starts out as a thought. And so learning how to harness those thoughts, and literally, so much it's around identity and just how you think of yourself and how you behave is 100% in accordance with how you view yourself and how you identify yourself.

Katie Zaccardi:
Absolutely, yeah. I saw a video on TikTok the other day where some duo was like, "Hey, we're... " They didn't say starving actually, they said, "We're struggling artists." And I was like, "No." How you think about yourself, how you talk about yourself, how you think about the world, how you talk about the world and what's going on, that is what you bring into reality. So if you are introducing yourself or thinking about, "Oh, I'm a starving artist, I'm a rising artist, I'm a struggling artist. I'm this, that, or the other thing," is that how you actually want to be defined? Do you want to live your life as a struggling artist? Probably not. So stop calling yourself that.

Katie Zaccardi:
And notice that, it's not always about, I know we were talking about investing, but it's just about exactly that, the thought patterns and the energies. If you want to be successful, ask yourself, am I surrounding myself with successful people? Am I surrounding myself with people who are bringing me down, or who are complaining all the time? I had a client once where this was actually a huge thing that we had to work through with her because as she leveled up, as she made more money, more money than she's ever made in her life, she noticed that her other friends who she went to music school with and was just associated with, not only could they literally not even recognize the mindset she was in, but they continued to just...

Katie Zaccardi:
As she got out of that mindset of being a starving artist, she could see how damaging it was from the outside perspective, and she was like, "All these people do is complain. All they talk about is how broke they are. It's such a disconnect and it's really dragging me down energetically." You have to get out of that, and sometimes you have to make the conscious effort to set boundaries with people, to sometimes end relationships, to be quite frank, and also put yourself in the place you want to be. That means getting friends who are in the music industry who think in a more positive way or who are interested in the same stuff as you, but driving around neighborhoods that inspire you, getting coffee and doing work in a neighborhood that you want to live in someday.

Katie Zaccardi:
It's those kinds of things that will ultimately set you up for success. And small things like when you get someone who streams or who post your story, say, "Thank you so much for doing that." Say it to them, say it out loud to yourself, spread the gratitude, spread the positive forward motion, instead of just being like, "Huh, why is nobody joining my thing that I just randomly posted about five minutes ago and nobody knew about before, and now I'm pissed off that it's not going the way I want it to like?" Think critically about how you can always do better and think positively about how things are going, not toxic positivity, but really just staying in that gratitude and being able to notice when things are going well and appreciate everything that's happening around you.

Michael Walker:
Yes. The word gratitude and appreciation, they're such a powerful driving force. And one of the most valuable habits for my relationship with my wife that we added, and I think this applies to anyone, whether it's in a relationship or just in terms of life thing is the habit of every night writing down, what are the top three things that you're feeling grateful for? And then also, this is one of my favorite things to do, is also after write down the three things we're grateful for, do future gratitudes. So think about, what are three things in the future that I'm grateful for?

Katie Zaccardi:
Oh, I love that.

Michael Walker:
And to bring the same energy to it as if it's already happened. So that exactly when you look at the gratitude and you just can bring that and you have that gratitude for the thing happening, and that has been like a game changer for me. And there's been a few times where usually what happens is the future gratitude tends to center around something that is a big opportunity, but also there's a lot of fear around, or it's scary, and things like going on stage and having an opportunity to speak in front of a few thousand people, it could totally bomb, it could be terrible. And usually-

Katie Zaccardi:
Thank you for it not going horribly. Thank you so much.

Michael Walker:
So in that case, like feeling of future gratitude, the presentation went super well, people got a ton of value from it, and it feel awesome, was really exciting, and it went really well. And saying it in the past tense like it's already happened, there's something with that that's just so powerful, that just shifts the energy.

Katie Zaccardi:
Yeah. Actually a really powerful change in language that I heard of when it comes to manifestation was not saying, "I can't wait for this. I can't wait until I get this many streams. I can't wait until I finally have money and I can do this thing." Instead say, "I'm so ready for this. I'm ready, I am accepting, I am open." Those words instead, just help, again, woo-woo to the universe. But also just to yourself of not saying, "Oh, I'm waiting," or, "This'll happen eventually." But instead saying, "I'm ready, at any moment, it's going to happen and I'm ready for it." And similar to you, I write my manifestations too, "Thank you so much for my great big house that I love so much." This really stepping into that gratitude.

Katie Zaccardi:
And every time I see angel numbers or just repeating numbers, like five, five, five, four, four, four, I use it as a chance to be like, "Thank you. I'm listening, I'm accepting. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for everything that's happening," especially whatever's happening in that given moment. And it just allows a moment of not getting into the stress of the day that can be so easy to do. It can be so easy to just let the calls pile up, or the meetings pile up, or the emails, whatever, and feel like it's so hard to balance everything. And sometimes it is, that is the human experience that you will be stressed and it will be tiring sometimes, but if you can put these little habits or moments into your day that set you up for more success, in the long run, it's going to be a game changer.

Katie Zaccardi:
And especially, going back to my story, if you're someone who struggles with anxiety, that's helped me a ton too, those things grounding into your day, help you to overcome those things like anxiety or any other struggles that you might be having. I won't speak for other people's struggles, but for me, I know it helped.

Michael Walker:
I love that. That's so good. And one last... This is the kind of conversation I really geek out about.

Katie Zaccardi:
Me too.

Michael Walker:
I think it's so important. One thing that you said there triggered this thought of just the idea of deserving and this feeling of deserving and how powerful that is, especially when we're talking about manifestation or having goals and transforming, which is something that we're all here to do is to grow. And the sense of deserving and how that plays into the idea of what we talked about with the imposter syndrome, but I think there is a balance to it where in some ways like the imposter syndrome, it can be a really powerful tool and it can move you in the right direction, like we talked about with the peer group and surrounding yourself with people who are at a higher level, and there's this feeling of, "Am I an imposter? And man, what's my excuse? If they're doing this, I can do this too. I need to show up, and I need to take responsibility for it."

Michael Walker:
But that sense of deserving or that word, deserving, how can I get myself to a point where I deserve to have this thing that's in the future? And I think that doesn't necessarily happen in the future that we get ourselves to that point in the present moment of deserving it. And you can do things, just because you haven't achieved it yet right now, if you get yourself to that point, you can start doing the things that make you deserve to achieve that goal.

Katie Zaccardi:
Exactly. I think just by inherently being and wanting something, you are deserving of it. Now, if that's hard to come to terms with, I would ask yourself like, "Who is the person that I want to be? Or who is the person that is deserving of this?" So if you picture yourself down the line eventually being deserving, what makes that person different? Do they have more peace in their life? Are they more generous? Are they this, that, or the other thing? Whatever qualities or life circumstances you're attributing to that, notice that and ask yourself, "What can I start to pull into my life right now?" Because it's not about, like I said earlier, once this happens, then I'll be this, or then I'll have that. You can start pulling that into your life now.

Katie Zaccardi:
And it's not like, "When I'm a billionaire, I'll act like this." Okay, start doing that now. Start doing that now, and then you'll attract that into your life at the scale that you can. Obviously, you're not going to go donate $500,000 if you don't have that, but what can you donate? What habits can you do? What things can you do? How can you surround yourself or what is your day-to-day look like? How can you do that now as much as possible?

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Great stuff. Katie, thank you so much for coming on here and geeking out with me. And go and woo-woo and we would come back. I think with everything, there's balance. There's an extreme where it's, yeah, we can just manifest anything by just imagining, you never have to do any work. Obviously, that's not the case. There's so much power in using the tools and using our mindset to think forward and set goals and to become the kind of person that achieves those goals. So I think it's a really important conversation, and I'm glad that we got to go there, we got to go a little woo-woo.

Michael Walker:
For anyone that's listening or watching this right now, who wants to connect more and learn more from you, where would be the best place for them to check you out?

Katie Zaccardi:
Anywhere you go, Katie Zaccardi on Instagram, katiezaccardi.com. My podcast is called The Out To Be Podcast, which you can also just find on my website. And the only place that I'm not just Katie Zaccardi is TikTok, because I couldn't get that username, so there I am katie.zaccardi, But I'm mostly hanging out on Instagram, so definitely shoot me a DM, let me know what your takeaways were from this episode. I'd love to hear from you. And that's where I'm hanging out.

Michael Walker:
Cool. Awesome. Thanks again, Katie. It's been awesome talking with you and I'm really looking forward to the mastermind coming up. We're going to be on a sailboat hanging out. It's going to feel great after weathering the pandemic, whatnot, to actually go out and be on the open seas.

Katie Zaccardi:
Open seas. Yes. It's going to be amazing. And thank you so much for having me.

Michael Walker:
Hey, it's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value out of this episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about the guest today. And if you want to support the podcast, then there's a few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe, then I'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends on your social media, tag us. That really helps us out. And third, best of all, if you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take their music careers to the next level. The time to be a modern musician is now. And I look forward to seeing you on the next episode.