Judy Stakee:
The thing that AI will never take away about is the human connection, is the human development, is that growth period that a human being goes through and a writer goes through in developing, "Oh, that's what I wanted to say. Oh, I finally found the words to express myself." And it's that connection that keeps us going. It's the connection that keeps us alive. It's the connection that keeps us living to 100. It's the connection between people, and that's one thing AI can't take away.

Michael Walker:
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All right, so I'm excited to be here today with Judy Stakee. So, Judy is a world-renowned artist development specialist, author, speaker. Her songwriting methodology is kick-started and shaped the careers of some of today's most acclaimed songwriters and artists. She spent over 20 years as Senior VP of Creative at Warner Chappell Music, where she signed, developed and managed artists that you might recognize a few of these. Grammy-award winners like Katy Perry, Sheryl Crow, Michelle Branch, Jewel, Gavin DeGraw, many more. And she's at this point, garnered hundreds of BMI, ASCAP awards for her songwriters, as well as numerous Grammy Awards, MTV, CMA, AMAs, so she knows a thing or two when it comes to the world of songwriting.
And you're an artist, your songs are at the heart of who you are and your music and your career. So, the motto for your company, "It All Starts With A Song" definitely rings true. And I'm really excited to have a conversation here today about songwriting and the art of music at its core and what it looks like in today's world and where that's headed in the future as well. So, Judy, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today.

Judy Stakee:
Oh, you're welcome. We're talking about my favorite subjects in the world.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, this is some fun stuff. So, maybe you could share really briefly, maybe just a little bit about your story and how you got started and were able to develop this songwriting framework and be able to work with some of the world's most established artists.

Judy Stakee:
The elevator story would be, I came out of the womb singing and dancing and just never stopped. I took piano lessons and dance lessons and voice lessons. I went to USC and graduated with a voice degree and I got out of college and there was no internet. There was no... I didn't have parents who knew people in the business or it was just very hard to connect. And by the luck of the draw, I met somebody who was going into the music business and followed her and got a job at Arista Music and started as a secretary because I'd been in music, I'd been writing music. I never even learned how to type, but [inaudible 00:03:15] my way in and then learned from the ground up in the music business. And what was great about is that when I started at Arista, I started in the publishing division, I didn't start in the records, though we were housed in the same building, so it was just down the hall.
But I learned publishing, the very beginning, which is really great because now that I have quite a huge perspective on the whole business, it's where you start, that's why my motto is, "It All Starts With A Song." Because you can't go get a producer, you can't get a tour, you don't get a fashion shoot. You don't get anything until you have the song which dictate where you're going to go. So, I started as a secretary. I learned everything and worked my way up and worked my way up to the song plugger is what they called us because we would take songs and plug them into different projects.
Left Arista after seven years, went to Screen Gems, which was part of the Capitol Music Group, and was there for three years and signed Scott Cutler. He wrote Torn for Natalie Imbruglia, he wrote Beyonce hit, Miley Cyrus-

Michael Walker:
Love that song.

Judy Stakee:
And signed Rick Nowels, who had Belinda Carlisle and Madonna and Dido hits and so forth, and worked with some really great writers. And then I went to Warner Chappell for 20 years and really developed some really a great stable of staff songwriters, at that time you could be a staff songwriter and you could actually make money from just getting cuts with Faith Hill and Britney Spears and Josh Groban. You would write songs and they would cut them, and you could just be a songwriter.
You were an artist and you were a songwriter, so you were Sheryl Crow and you were Jewel, you were Michelle Branch as you mentioned, they all wrote their own songs, and so they were developed as artist writers to get them record deals. And then if they had leftover songs, we would get them cut with other artists. But that's basically what I did until the world really changed in around 2004, 2005, when I call it the perfect storm happened and financially, we went from brick and mortar to digital, we went from filing paper to putting everything on a computer desk. And that took a lot of manpower to make that switch, which was a financial strain to every single company and person out there in the world. And then because of 9/11, we were struck with the aftermath of that in a recession. So we went into a recession.
It was just this perfect storm of so many financial things that took the business. And the third thing was that the internet grew up. The internet was so grown up that you couldn't get away with fudging things on an application, a loan. They were recalling things because people had been given loans that should have never been given loans. And so the whole world collapsed around that time. And I left the traditional music business and started my own company. I am very, very, very, very passionate about the artist development journey that an artist writer has to go on. It is one of... Because when you have to write songs every single day, you have to come up with something new every day. It's not like, "Oh, I've come up with this coffee cup and I just get to make a mold, and then I just get to make it every day and watch and sell it." No, I have to make a new coffee cup every single day. And it's got to look very different from this one.
So you have to be inspired, you have to have great foundation, you have to have great tools around you to keep going, to be able to do this kind of work because you are pulling from the depths of your soul, even if it's just the depths of my soul to be so happy, you're getting it out there and sharing it with people. And that takes a lot. So I started my company with that motto and the whole thing of the writers need a creative process, and that's where I help them build a creative process so that they can do what they do and be successful. So that's-

Michael Walker:
So awesome.

Judy Stakee:
In a nutshell.

Michael Walker:
Cool. Thank you for sharing. Yeah, and that's-

Judy Stakee:
You're welcome.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, I'm really excited in this conversation. Speaking with Sonia so much perspective, and even just you described this big experience of transition and transformation that happened in 2004, 2005, was it?

Judy Stakee:
Yeah.

Michael Walker:
And seeing how the world has evolved as it relates to songwriting and what are the roots and the fundamentals that haven't changed, and what are the things that have changed? We talked a little bit backstage before we started this about at the time of recording this. AI is starting to blow up. And as a creative tool or generator, it seems like we're still going to have to figure out how do we use AI in a way that brings out our humanity? And I don't know, who knows what's going to happen with AI in five or 10 years, but I'm really excited to explore these different directions. So maybe to start with having worked with so many songwriters and many of them becoming Grammy-Award winning songwriters and seeing their journeys starting out, then achieving those dreams. I'm curious, what have been some of the biggest... When you're working with new artists and they first come to you, what are some of the biggest challenges that you see them struggling with over and over again?

Judy Stakee:
Getting out of their own way. In order to be great at what you do, you have to become the A-plus student. You have to be willing to go the extra mile. You have to really willing to say yes to everything. You have to be willing to just go, "Okay, I did that. Now what else do I do?" It's the perseverance of it that you have to have, you can be as talented as all, but if you don't have that drive, if you don't have that, "How do I get better? How do I do this? How do I do that?" It's harder. It's just harder. Yeah, so that's the one thing.
'Cause I have a lot of consultation clients and critique clients. I critique songs and I do retreats and so forth. And it's amazing how people will pay for a consultation. They'll sit there and I'll tell them, I'll say, "This is the map. This is what you're going to have to do. If you want to get here, these are some first steps that you could..." And they want it now. They want it. We live in that society that everybody wants it now. And the thing that AI will never take away about is the human connection, is the human development, is that growth period that a human being goes through and a writer goes through in developing, "Oh, that's what I wanted to say. Oh, I finally found the words to express myself." And it's that connection that keeps us going. It's the connection that keeps us alive. It's the connection that keeps us living to 100. It's the connection between people, and that's one thing that AI can't take away.

Michael Walker:
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Wow. So eloquently said, and it seems like a great just life principle and like that in a lot of cases, the thing if we're stuck somewhere is if we can look inside and realize, "How am I contributing to this and get out of our own way?" Then we can overcome almost anything. So as it relates to-

Judy Stakee:
I have a quick  for that. A yoga teacher told me once, they were going down the river and there were no life jackets and stuff, but they had come to this really and he was hanging onto this rock and he was just hanging on. And the currents coming up to him and everyone's passing him by and it's like, it's just like, "Just let go." And as soon as he let go, he was in the current of things, but we hold onto the struggle, we hold on and we think this is our safety, when if we just let go and just went with the flow of things, we'd find it.

Michael Walker:
That is a really powerful analogy. The similar experience that I had recently was in Costa Rica, about a year and a half ago. We hosted a retreat there and there was a lot of whitewater rafting. And one of the lessons that essentially lifeguard said was, "If you fall into the river, don't freak out, don't flail, don't move around because that's how you get hurt, that's how you break your arm. And instead, if you just relax and you lay down, then it feet first, then we'll come rescuing you, you'll be okay." And in a very similar way, it seems like that idea of when you let go, then things naturally tend to settle.
So what would your recommendation be for people? Because again, I feel like this is a human thing in songwriting, this comes from that humanness, but what would your recommendation be for anyone who's listening to this right now, who maybe is going through a transition or through a struggle, or they kind of feel like they're holding onto that rock and they're like, "Ah, I don't want to let go, and what's going to happen if I let go?" How do you coach someone through that experience of trust?

Judy Stakee:
For me, it's like I know when I'm in that struggle, it's like the first thing I do now is reach out for somebody. And I think that's the first thing I would say is in building your career and building this life that you want as this artist and this songwriter is that it's building a team around you. You can't do this alone, nobody can do it alone. So it's like start with that one person that you trust that you want to hold onto and go to them and say, "Okay, I'm stuck. Help me." And they might know nothing about the music business, but they can listen and they can go, "Okay, it sounds like if you just could save up a couple of hundred dollars, then maybe you could go do the... Okay, so let me help you. Let's call Frank because he's really good in business."
"So who do I need to talk to? How can you help me? Can you call somebody? I need help." That's what we're here for. And it's the hardest thing for human beings to do, but it takes a village to raise a child, we cannot do this alone. And the more that we ask for help, it's easier. It doesn't make it, I mean it's still all hard, but it makes it a little easier to navigate when you've got somebody that you can call and go, "Hey..." I had a client, this was six months ago who was having a little bit of a legal issue who didn't have the funds. And I called up a really good friend of mine and I said, listen, I need a favor. He said, "I've got somebody that just needs to talk about this with some legal advice. Would you do that? Would you do me a favor?" And he's like, "Absolutely." And it's, do you have that base that's going to help you, that's going to be there for you in whatever?

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. Yeah, it's what came to mind is it wouldn't have been good for us to just let go of the rock if we didn't have that person in the kayak who had our back, who was watching you. So it is really important to have that support system. And that idea of being an A-plus student, it seems like, well, there's two parts of that equation. You need to be a student, and every student has a teacher, and there's that saying of when the student is ready, then the teacher appears.

Judy Stakee:
True.

Michael Walker:
And yeah, that's powerful hearing that because you have shown us a lot of perspective as you worked with a lot of students and you've seen the ones who've been able to grow from scratch to achieving their dreams.

Judy Stakee:
And I think one of the reasons I've been successful with developing artists is because the first one I developed was Sheryl Crow. Little did I know that I was signing, I thought she was amazing. She was a writer. We met, and all of a sudden it was like, I'm developing her and it was like, oh, she trusted me. I could actually say to her, "I don't like that line, let's work on that." And she trusted me so much and it was just this freeing thing for me that, "Oh, this is what it looks like when a writer trusts me so much." So she gave me a great example of what to look for in other writers.

Michael Walker:
That's powerful.

Judy Stakee:
Because she went the extra mile.

Michael Walker:
Right. So how does someone... Let's say that someone's listening this right now and they're trying to figure out their music and their songwriting and they're kind of thinking, "I need a mentor. I need help with this." And obviously there's a variety of people who are listening to this, some people who have the resources to invest in coaching and direct support, there might be some people who are just starting out. What are some ways for them to find the right mentor for them? And what are some things to look out for in the world of finding that guidance?

Judy Stakee:
Oh boy, that's a big loaded question. First of all, I think that you need to identify what you need to work on. So I'm a singer songwriter and I sing and I play guitar and I write lyrics and I write melodies and I do it all by myself. So do I need really a lot more help with lyrics? Do I need to play more guitar? Where do I need to make an assessment? So I think you need to know what kind of mentor you need to identify that.
And then it's more about doing some research. What do you need a mentor for? What I provide is foundational work. You can come and do a consultation with me. And what you leave with is, like I said, a map of, "Okay, if this is what you want, then this is what you're going to have to do." Because after the assessment that I do, then I tell them, "Look, you've got an amazing voice and your melodies are just... But your storytelling needs a lot of work. So that's what we're going to concentrate on right now. Okay, this is what you're going to need to do. These are some videos that will help. Here's some exercises, here's some other classes that you might even want to take, but this is what you've got to do." So I think at the very beginning, it's the assessment that you need so that you can figure out where you go in the life.
Because otherwise most writers stand there and go, "I don't know where to go. I don't know what to do. And it's like, because I sing and I write and I tap dance and I do all this stuff, but it's like, what do I do with it all?" It's like, "Okay, let's see what's really good, what you need, what's ready to go now, and what needs a little bit more percolating?" So there's an assessment, that's what I've been trained to do is that I can look at somebody's career in life and then make a roadmap for them.

Michael Walker:
Super smart. Yeah, sounds like what you're saying. Yeah, but I think about analogies a lot, so I'm probably like... When most people become dads, they start making puns. And when I became a dad, I just started making analogies like left, right. The one that came to mind for you to describe is, you're creating a map, but if someone doesn't know what the destination is, then you can't really create a map for them or create a GPS to help them go from point A to point B because what does a GPS need in order to navigate you? Well, it needs to know what's your starting point, where you're at right now, and it needs to know where you're trying to go to. And once you have that, you can create a path, you can create a map. But yeah, it sounds like what you're saying is that you need to have that initial point of clarity to figure out, "Where am I right now and where am I going?" And that's the perspective that a good mentor can provide.

Judy Stakee:
Right. And songwriters are writing songs, which only exist if they're manufactured. Think about that. So it's content, it's air, it's sound, it's vibration. So in order to create that every single day, there has to be some kind of structure. There has to be some kind of container or else you've got all of this vibration and energy going all over the place with songwriters and emotions and all this stuff, and that's why songwriters can get really lost and burnt out and so forth, because they need to know how the body, the mind, and the soul works in order to be creative, to be as creative as they can be. So it is a lifestyle also that goes along with the development of the writing.

Michael Walker:
Awesome. Yeah, that totally makes sense. As a songwriter, it's your body and your mind and your spirit are the vessel that you're channeling stuff through. And so if there's something messed up with one of those container, one of those areas, they might stifle the creative flow. Interesting.

Judy Stakee:
Well, think about your voice doesn't exist without your body. Your voice doesn't exist without your body. So if your body is in a crappy mood, I mean, I've been really sick before, and it's like, you don't want to be near me because I'm like, "go write the song." Well, it could be a great experiment because it might be really angry song, but it's hard to be creative, it's hard to be nice, it's hard to be anything when you've got a thorn in your side. So your voice doesn't exist without your body, so you have to pay attention to your body. So it all goes hand in hand. This is the methodology that I get into in creating foundations for songwriters. I have a couple of students from Belmont. I'm a Belmont West teacher out here in Los Angeles, they came out and lived for six months, that's how I met Kate Cosentino.
And I have them for a week. They write down their sleep pattern, their diet pattern, and their exercise 'cause that makes up the body. That's what they have control over. And it's is so interesting to see. Their diet and exercise actually was not so bad, its the sleep, because it's the phone the hour before. It's like, "Well, what do you do before you go to sleep?" "Well, I get in bed and I do Facebook for an hour, and then I do TikTok for an hour." I'm like, "And you wonder why you can't sleep?" So it's just things like that. It's like, "If you want to get a good night's sleep, these are things that you're going to have to do, you have a choice." So it's leading them to that. Yeah.

Michael Walker:
Oh yeah. That's so true. And in today's day and age with these devices that are so intelligent, so smart and addictive, grabbing our attention, the ability to unplug. I actually got a container on Amazon. It was a $10, I think it was from overseas container that it's a lockbox for your phone. And I put my phone in it at 08:00 every night, a few hours before I go to bed. And that has been such a game changer, just not having the ability to even go use it. So that's awesome, that's a core thing that you help address in the framework. Awesome. You just covered the body at a high level when it comes to songwriting, what are some of the other fundamental frameworks that if someone wants to master the songwriting or become a better songwriter that they need to consider?

Judy Stakee:
The other thing they need to consider are lyrics. I mean, if you want to be a great songwriter, become a great storyteller. And it's one of the things that I hammer into everybody, because you are telling a story in a short amount of time, that is the trick. You don't get 50,000 words like you would in a book. You get two to 300 words, but you have to tell me a story. You can't just tell me, "We went to the store, we did this, we did that, we broke up, we got back together." That's a list. It's have to go back to fifth grade and go, "Okay, once upon a time something happened." And then because something happened, you reacted and then you got a big aha.
So it's becoming a great storyteller. And what I always impress upon people is that we navigate our lives, our everyday lives by telling stories. All you and I are doing is telling stories back and forth through to every book on the show as a story. And we telling you a story is a story. So the better storyteller that you are... I don't want to say easy as in a judgment, but it's easier to navigate when you have a story to help you navigate out of something, into something, around something, through something.
So I have many friends who have talked their way out of tickets and I'm like, I want to go take a class on that. What words, what tone? But whatever they said, they told a story so beautifully that the cop said, "I'm going to let you go this time." That's a great storyteller. Yeah, I went and saw, I tried to figure it out one time, but I lost thousands and thousands and thousands of shows over the years, up until little bitty pieces too full on route two with the Rose Bowl. And I have to tell you the acts that I stay for are the ones that tell great stories in between the song. 'Cause I can tell you how many times you go to a club and you see a singer songwriter or a band, and its like, "And the next song is... And the next song is... And the next..." It's like, I could have stayed home for this. The ones that in between that tell you great stories and tell you who they are, and that's what always captured me in a show.

Michael Walker:
Super interesting. Yeah, it definitely seems like the way that we've communicated as humans for a long time before we had, and even when we had written documents, was through stories and around the campfire, and being able to communicate knowledge and wisdom through the art of storytelling. And some of the classic teachers around storytelling, Joseph Campbell, some of those archetypes are super interesting. So storytelling as it relates to songwriting is really interesting.
And so a couple of questions for you in regards to storytelling for songs. One is, let's start here. How do you recommend that someone comes across a story worth telling, I guess? Or how do they get to the root of defining? What should the story of the song be about? Should be something that I personally have gone through, or is it okay if I am inspired by another story that's happening? How do you recommend they come up with ideas for stories for the songs?

Judy Stakee:
I actually wrote a book called, The Songwriter's Survival Guide. And in it, I have a whole bunch of different ways that you can start a story. I mean there's once upon a time, you can start from any way you want really. A lot of times I will have a writer pick a theme like the power of silence and say, "Go off and write a couple paragraphs on what the power of silence means to you." And then they'll write that, and then you'll find that in there they'll have lines that all of a sudden there's a story and they can go write a little from it. It's what you believe, it's what you see, it's what you think, it's what you know somebody else has gone through and what you think about what somebody else has gone through. It's what you've gone through, it's what It's all over the place.
The trick is to find your voice in there, is to find what is your perspective on it? Because the world is, I mean it's a marvelous place, but what is your perspective? I don't want to hear what Kelly Clarkson perspective is. I know what Kelly Clarkson says. It's like, I don't want someone writing that perspective. I want to know what yours is.
And the example that I give about this is that I had a writer years ago who was having some trouble coming up with some lyrics and so forth, and I said, "I thought you broke up with a girlfriend recently." And it's like, "I'm sure there's something in there. Let's talk about it." And he got really upset with me and he pointed to the corner of the room and he said, "My relationship is a big ball of string over there in the corner, and if I come unraveling it, it's going to go everywhere." And I'm fiercely writing lines down and going, "There's your perspective right there. I didn't want you to make it okay. I didn't want you to say what you thought I wanted you to say. I wanted to know where you are at it, where you were at in it."
Okay, I'm talking too much. But that was the whole point. It's like, I want to know what you see because you have no idea that I see gold little circles in back of you right now and I can't see what you see. I mean, we can't because we're on Zoom, but you know what I'm saying? It's like we need each other in order for me to know what you are seeing, because I don't see the same thing as you do. I depend on other people's perspective. I count on them so I can see the world fully because I only have my two eyes. All of a sudden, I mean, time this happens, somebody comes up and goes, "Oh my God, did you see that tree over there?" I'm like, "I was looking at the same thing, but I never looked at it from that point of view. Wow, that's kind of cool."
So other ones would be, who would you write a song for? So you could pick somebody and go, "Oh, I'd love to write for a song for Kelly Clarkson." So you go listen to a lot of stuff and try and emulate that. You could ask a friend to give you an opening line about any topic and write a song from there. What I'll say too is that songs are more about moments. They're a moment in a movie. So if there's a moment in the movie where the girl's about to kiss the guy and then the phone rings and it's like, what goes through your head? It's like, "Boy." It's like just in that, "Oh, I was saved in the nick of time." Or, "Oh, we're always getting interrupted." It's like, where's your thought process on what's going on right there? And there's a song.
The song is just a moment. A song is a moment, it's two to 300 words that you are conveying. You don't have to make it okay, you don't have to make it right. You're just telling me what's going on in that moment. And then the other big trick tool for a songwriter is vulnerability. Is being vulnerable with their audience, is being able to say, "Wow, that did me in." Or, "Oh my God, I got so excited I couldn't stand it." But it's being vulnerable. Yeah.

Michael Walker:
It's also good. So on the vulnerability bit, obviously being vulnerable is a scary thing to do. And it's almost like paradoxical, maybe that's the right word, but how a lot of times those things that we're so afraid or ashamed of or the thing we're like, "We can't talk about that, that's scary." Is actually the thing where it's like, that can be a gift or can be a blessing, or that can be the thing to share. What would you recommend for someone who maybe doesn't know exactly how to be vulnerable or maybe they have something that they've been holding in or they feel like it's scary to share something that they're being judged or shamed or something as it relates to the vulnerability or making music about it, but it's something that they have a perspective or a voice on. How do you know the difference between something that's worth sharing or something that is better kept inside, I guess?

Judy Stakee:
You get feedback, you write about it, you talk about it, you get your team, you get your mentors. You call me up for a critique and we talk about it. And you go through the process of, "Okay, let me see what vulnerability looks like for me. Does it mean that I have to tell all the details, 'cause I don't really want to tell the details, but I don't mind telling somebody I was afraid. I can actually map some of the details and still put my vulnerability in." It's like there's different aspects of it.
I was working with a client last year who came to me and was really great writer, but very writing standard stuff, and it was through the, "Okay, this is what I don't like about this song." And going over each song and showing them where and how the song wasn't working and where I needed them to put the vulnerability in. So it was through the critiques and through all the consultations of really showing her where to go, and then all of a sudden it's like, got it. She got it. And then all of a sudden the songs kept pouring out that were now her. Not her trying to be somebody else, but her.
It's like you could make a cake and you make a cake and you make a cake and you make a cake, and then all of a sudden one day you go, "You know what? I'm going to do something different. I know how to make a cake, but let me do something different with it." And that's the authentic piece that you want to get to. But that comes through practice and no one escapes it. No one escapes it, you have to write hundreds of songs. You have to just keep writing and writing and writing until one day you go, "I got it, the formula, it's stuck. It's like, it's in my body, it's in that hologram is glowing, and it's like now I know I don't get stuck on the second verse because I know what questions to ask. I know where to look in the first verse to get my second verse." You know all these tricks, but it's the practice, it's the homework. No one escapes it.

Michael Walker:
Yeah. And that's the part that you mentioned earlier, how one of the obstacles can be, "I just want it now. So I've got the map, but why can't I just teleport and just be there instantly?" What would your recommendations be for someone to carve out that space or set a discipline? Discipline that doesn't necessarily infringe on their creativity or their freedom, because a lot of times you might think of discipline as being like, "Oh no, I want to be totally free and be able to create whenever I feel inspired." But I'm sure that what you found through your experience is probably more in the line of no, the great songwriters, they make time and they make it happen no matter what. And it's a discipline, it's a practice. So what's your perspective on creating that space and how can someone bring this into their daily life or what recommendations you have around routines and habits in order to develop?

Judy Stakee:
Do we have a couple of hours, because I could talk about this forever. I'm big one for them because as I said before, creativity is all about emotion and vibration and frequency and all the mushy stuff, okay? It's not about building, it's not about being perfect, it's about falling down. And so you have to have that container, you have to have that... I just lost my train of thought. Oh shoot, I just lost my train of thought.

Michael Walker:
All good. So we were talking about the routine, the habits, the containers.

Judy Stakee:
So the thing is that when you have things that are set in, when you have that discipline and that schedule, then the creativity, it has the space to do it. And what I'm talking about is, so let me give you an example. So I do these retreats, okay? I take everybody away for five days. We come on a Sunday night, we do dinner and so forth. But Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, they work from 08:00 in the morning till 21:00 at night. And from 08:00 to 09:00 they do yoga, body. From 09:00 to 10:00 they eat a very healthy breakfast. I mean, there's no cinnamon rolls and no Captain Crunch and things like that. No, very healthy breakfast. And they eat all together to socialize, all right? Then from 10:00 to 13:00 is there's a lot of lecture from me and homework and exercise and videos and actually a voice lesson in there and then three days. But that chunk of time in the morning is when I get a lot of brain power. I give them a lot of information. There's learning.
We have an hour lunch where they all get to, "Oh, what'd you think? Did you like that video?" They all get to socialize and eat a healthy lunch. From then from 14:00 to 17:00 they co-write, they go off in groups of three, and then they get to co-write. They're not listening to a lecture, they're not sitting there, being fed all this stuff, they get to actually apply what they've learned into a setting. Then we eat dinner afterwards, I forget the time. Then we eat dinner afterwards, and then from 19:30 to 21:00, they perform the songs that they wrote that day. And then of course, that turns into a jam and we talk and it's really nice. And then at 21:00 it's done. But for three days they do this.
So at the end of the day, end of the week, we have a breakfast, and I go, "Look at everything that you guys did this week. You should be very proud of yourselves. You did yoga three days in a row. You had a voice lesson. You had over 12 hours of exercises and lecture and homework and real education. You wrote three songs, you performed three songs. You got to know a couple dozen other people that now are your brothers and sisters for life. And you took three hours out of every single day to eat. Three hours out of your day to eat, and you wrote three songs, you did yoga three days, you did a voice lesson, you performed, look at all the stuff you did, and you fed yourself and you took care of yourself, and you did yoga."
So how do I look at my life? And I go, "Okay, I need eight hours of sleep, so that means that chunk, from 00:00 to 08:00, so I can stay up till midnight. If I'm going to bed at midnight, can I fall asleep at midnight or do I have to go to bed at 11 because it takes me..." You have to look at all the... "What do I eat? How can I meal prep my meals so I don't have to sit there every day at lunch going, what am I going to eat?" Its being proactive, so your schedule is so, you have a schedule, so when you get into your office at 08:00 and you have till noon or nine to noon, you can just be creative. You don't have to worry about going to the store and making lunch and what you're going to do because it's all taken care of. So I'm a huge one on schedule and discipline and rituals and all of it.

Michael Walker:
So good. Yeah, that's fantastic. And I mean, the retreat sounds amazing. At some point, I would love to attend one of the songwriting retreats.

Judy Stakee:
We're doing one in September just outside of Nashville.

Michael Walker:
Okay, cool. Yeah, I'll definitely get connected with you, and I would love to attend one of the retreats. But absolutely, in terms of discipline and routine, everyone that I know who is making a big impact and who's successful in their own area is exactly that way. Where they have a discipline and they actually have routine and habits. They've developed habits, and those automatic habits are what make doing amazing crazy things seem easy and normal, because for them, they've done it so much that it is easy and normal.

Judy Stakee:
You know what's interesting? I'm really, really strict with what I eat. I have a really great routine. And I eat, I'm at my house, it's just easy. But what it allows me is that when I go out to dinner or I go to Seder Passover, on Wednesday night, I had the best time. I had so much fun eating things that I don't usually eat, and when I go out to dinner, I'm like, what's the specialty? Because then I appreciate it so much more. Because it's like, otherwise, it's like I have to eat three times a day for the rest of my life. It's like, let me make this simple.

Michael Walker:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I'm pretty extreme on the scale of my diet or routine in terms of a spectrum. I make a green shake for breakfast and for lunch every morning. I absolutely love it. I'd probably on a scale of one to 10, give it a nine and a half in terms of taste and a 10 out of 10 in terms of everything else. And-

Judy Stakee:
That's how I feel.

Michael Walker:
That's exactly how you-

Judy Stakee:
Yeah, same feel.

Michael Walker:
Exactly what you're describing of having a routine, it actually creates freedom to be able to, it's sort of like you can let go of everything and just be free in that frame that you set.

Judy Stakee:
You're building your own safe container so that you can be creative. Because if you don't feel safe to be creative, then that's the whole trust issue also there. Yeah.

Michael Walker:
Powerful. Awesome. So one thing that I would love to dive into, and this is a really new development. Things are kind of crazy right now, I'm guessing even just by talking about this topic right now, we're going to be dating ourselves six months or a year, three years from now. But AI having a heyday right now with a few different tools that are being developed. One of them from open AI just went from basically scratch to over a hundred million users in a few months, it's the fastest growing company of all time, like in all of humanity.

Judy Stakee:
Wow.

Michael Walker:
There's some pretty interesting applications as it relates to creative workers, especially. People originally were thinking AI is going to replace all the mundane jobs. And what it's actually really, really good at is the creative roles and write things like writing books and stories and as songwriting tools. You can type in prompts to write a song about a certain topic and click a button, and in 10 seconds it writes a song that's relatively based on the fact that it's new technology, is astonishing how good the version 1.0 song is.
And yeah, obviously it's not at the level right now of humans. We have a little bit of a headstart, but yeah, I'm curious to hear your thoughts because I don't think the answer is that we should avoid AI or as technology, I think it is sort of a tool that we can use. But I'm curious to hear your perspective as having experienced some other big revolutions and breakthroughs as it relates to things like the internet and navigating those waters. What are some of the fundamental things that you think, these things aren't going to change about songwriting and these things you are still worth focusing on because these are the fundamentals and regardless of you're using AI to do this and helping you with this or not, you need to focus on those.
And in your perspective, what are the things that maybe we can take a step back and not spend as much time focused on the technical aspects of doing certain things, or even just how might you consider using a tool at the time of a record when this is released? Artist AI is a modern musician, we created a AI tool that's working with it internally with our team. We'll be releasing it to our community here, and probably about a week from at the moment of recording this, it'll probably be available by the time people are listening to this, at least internally. How might someone use a tool like AI in order to facilitate their creative expression?

Judy Stakee:
That was a mouthful.

Michael Walker:
I know, as soon as I paused there for a second, I was like, I literally just dropped so much information there. But hopefully that was not too much.

Judy Stakee:
Yeah. Oh, I'm so sorry. My... Bailey, shh. My dog.

Michael Walker:
No problem. It's also probably worth mentioning that, all of this is being recorded, but we have a team of editors and stuff, so no worries about doggie.

Judy Stakee:
Bales, shh. She heard something. So AI is a little overwhelming, and I'm not sure on a lot of it. Let me tell you what I am sure about. What I saw happening when the internet and everything happened 20 some years ago. Hold on, you let me just let her out, so this doesn't-

Michael Walker:
Yep, no problem.

Judy Stakee:
Go see what's going on. I have a studio here, so I've got people over here recording and all that today. So over 20 years ago when all the mergers happened, and then the internet came along and big transition, when the dust settled, the music industry was different then, okay? Record companies used to be the end all to be all. If you weren't a record company, it was like, oh my God, you're an nail person. But what happened after that is that touring and publishing became the stars, and all of a sudden people figured out that to own a copyright, because you could get them in film and TV and all the opportunities, it wasn't so much the artist anymore, it was the song and it was touring. It was, if you can go out and tour, that's where you made your money.
So as I look at AI and I look at, yes, it's going to replace a lot and it's going to be amazing. Okay, amazing. And we're going to figure out what the great tools for songwriters are and what they'll be able to use and so forth. But nothing will ever be able to replace a live experience. And I still believe that that's what people really want. Not every day, all the time, but that's what they're looking for. They're looking for that experience that they can go to and they can see live musicians and they can see a performance that is not computer generated.
That will be one thing, but there's a whole other world that can be created and can be sustained and can live in touring. In touring, it may have to be look a little different than it does now and how venues and prices and all that stuff and how we're going to do it. But I have artist writers that came to my retreat who go out and play maybe 50 or 60 dates a year, you never know who they are. They're having a great time. They've got their fans, they've got their fan base of a hundred thousand on Spotify. I'd be thrilled if I wrote a song and a hundred thousand people wanted to buy my song on Spotify or download it. But you can have that kind of a career too. You can have a regional, you can have something that is more community-based than having a Britney Spears career.

Michael Walker:
Really well put. Yeah, it sounds like what you're saying is that one of the things that you don't think AI can or will replace is the actual community nature of humanity, other humans to connect with. And music obviously at its core is really about this connection tool to bring us together and express, and you'll be able to relate with something. It's kind of about that relationship-

Judy Stakee:
And it goes back to the vulnerability. See, the thing is that when you're with somebody and you're in a co-write, and you and I are sitting there co-writing and all of a sudden I tell you, someone's like, "Okay, I haven't told anybody that I cheated because I should have done this, but I should have done that. And I'm kind of shameful." It's like all of a sudden it's like, I can't believe I'm telling you this. This is the first time we've met and I'm telling you this. And then all of a sudden it goes into a song. That's how you really connect with people. I mean, AI is going to be able to great for films maybe that can't afford big songs, and they can say I want something like this, and you put it in and there's going to be that learning curve or the transition, but I still don't think anything is going to replace the quality of the experience of a real song, of somebody actually pulling their guts out, good or bad.

Michael Walker:
That's powerful. Yeah. And what you shared about the live events and the live experience, it seems like that's something that has always been true is that there's these live events when people come together, it's almost like an orbit of when there are those communities and they come together around something. Even just the experience of listening to a song, you can bring you into the present moment and it's about experiencing a live event and having an experience. So it's interesting. I think maybe this is going to be a tool that allows us to better come to life.

Judy Stakee:
This just flashed in my mind, but when Big and Rich, John Rich and Big Kenny got together, I don't know if you do them? Big and Rich from-

Michael Walker:
I'm not super familiar, but I've definitely heard of Big and Rich.

Judy Stakee:
Before they had their huge hit, "Save A Horse, Ride A Cowboy" and all that. The national community was kind of like, "Who are these guys?" And they took over a residency at a club down there. It was an old house, and they got the top of the house and it was like every Tuesday night or something, they would sit up there and they would start playing, and then everybody started dropping by and everybody started doing guests. It was the most fun, and you just never knew when you were going to be there, who would walk in that was famous now that would sit in with them. And it just became this community just Tuesday night, like, "If you're in the neighborhood, go on down and just sit in and hang out." And people love that, they thrive for that.

Michael Walker:
That's really cool. Yeah, I didn't know that about them, but it sounds like a really cool experience. Cool community group, it's something they created. Awesome.

Judy Stakee:
Yeah.

Michael Walker:
Well, Judy, it's been awesome talking with you both about the roots, what are the fundamentals of songwriting and also a little bit about the future and how things are going to change while remaining true to those roots. So thank you so much for taking the time to-

Judy Stakee:
You're welcome.

Michael Walker:
Come on here and share a little bit about your experience and your wisdom and just for doing what you do. I think empowering musicians to discover who they are and be able to express that is a really powerful and important role. So I appreciate you and what you're offering. And for anyone here who resonated with anything that we talked about today and wants to dive deeper, what would be the best place for them to go to learn more?

Judy Stakee:
judystakee.com, anywhere you type it's Judy Stakee, Facebook, Twitter, and all of it. It's just Judy Stakee.

Michael Walker:
Awesome.

Judy Stakee:
I spent over 30 years building up that name, and I thought I'm just going to call everything Judy Stakee, it'll be a lot easier.

Michael Walker:
There you go. Nice and simple. And always we'll put the links in the show notes for easy access.

Judy Stakee:
Right, thank you.

Michael Walker:
Thanks again, Judy.

Judy Stakee:
I appreciate the platform, the time and the space to be able to have my voice heard, so much invited.

Michael Walker:
Absolutely. Yeah, and also I'm looking forward to figuring out a time for the retreat because it sounds awesome and it looks like it'll be a great experience. It'll be a great community experience of coming together and being able to create great music together.

Judy Stakee:
Bye.

Michael Walker:
It's Michael here. I hope that you got a ton of value at its episode. Make sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our guest today. And if you want to support the podcast, then there's a few ways to help us grow. First, if you hit subscribe, then I'll make sure you don't miss a new episode. Secondly, if you share it with your friends or on your social media, tag us that really helps us out. And third, best of all, you leave us an honest review, it's going to help us reach more musicians like you who want to take the music careers to the next level. It's time to be in Modern Musicians now, and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.